Magnetite's internal struggle

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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by magnetite on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:22 pm

demersel wrote:ME3 is not about defeating the reapers, and the end of reaper war. It is about the beginning of the reaper war, but mainly - Shepard succumbing to/resisting to indoctrination. That is the story. That is what this particular game is about game is about.

Maybe Mass Effect 4, 5, and 6 will be the conclusion to the Reaper war. Here's hoping.
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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by Rankincountry on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:27 pm

I'm a bit torn on this as well - I love any work of fiction that has a mystery to it, with clues left in by the writers whether visual, verbal or otherwise. I love that ME3 has very cleverly subverted expectations by not being about defeating the reapers but being about Shepard's very individual battle. And viewed through the IT lens, I think the catalyst conversation and the decision chamber are very cleverly done. I've greatly enjoyed the last year of speculation and overall I'm very happy with ME3. In fact, I like it better the more time I spend with it.

If I have a criticism, it's that the ending is a bit too open. Take films like, say, The Usual Suspects, Fight Club, The Sixth Sense or The Matrix. Each has a reveal at some point in the story. Each is full of enough clues and foreshadowing to pre-emptively spot the twist if you're very observant (I'm not, I should add!). Having the reveal doesn't diminish the films though - in fact my reaction to all of these films was to watch them again and try to spot all of the clues that I missed. Each provided many hours of discussion with friends - actually they still do. There is room for speculation over the details, but in each case, we have a self-contained story that ends with a satisfying pay-off. I would happily re-watch any of them even knowing what's going to happen.

So, I think for ME3, it's time for Shepard's true fate to be revealed. His/her story doesn't quite feel done and that's the one little thing that nibbles away at me as I play. I don't need everything about every character to be resolved in some sort of ending montage. I don't need to see blue babies, a house on Rannoch, Zaeed retiring or Garrus on his stag night before marrying my femshep. But I really, really want to know if my interpretation is basically right or not.

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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by Davik Kang on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:19 pm

@Magnetite - well yeah we agree on most things about this game so it's no surprise that we agree on this one. I feel like a big explain-everything reveal could kill the story a little bit. Not many will agree with that though.

As to whether they'll do it - on the one hand you have the unlikeliness of Bioware choosing to actually change (some might argue retcon) the ending a full year after the game came out. You also have the effect of betrayal it may have on the number of fans who didn't choose Destroy, and a further feeling of betrayal that might be caused by making the very last choice in the game actually a non-choice, and worse, a choice that you might have made wrong, making your Shepard's effort to save the galaxy a complete failure based on a lie.

And on the other hand you have the fact that Bioware is renowned for their excellent characterisation and unique stroytelling in the videogame medium, and yet, as things stand currently, their "Magnus Opus" as someone put it is maligned and scoffed at by hardcore fans and casual players alike.

What to do?

----

On other topics:

Bad guys for next ME is interesting. Obviously the time frame makes a lot of difference. I'm sure Reapers will make some kind of appearance, ranging anywhere from the occasional call of a dead Reaper (ME2 style) to being Cheif Antagonists again.

But other possibilities are: Cerberus (it's an idea after all, and they could have changed their radical ways to somehow be more than just a human centric group despite their initial manifest), Leviathans (duh), Salarian Dalatrass, Asari Matriarch or other potentially dangerous power players, a TIM-based AI (is there any chance there are 3 TIMs? I was thinking this the other day when someone brought up the Joker quote about 3-headed dog), etc. etc. As for Good Guys :probably some much needed love for Vorcha and Batarians as they are kind of looked down upon as a lower caste right now, even by many players.
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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by Raistlin Majere on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:42 pm

If the Reaper threat is not carried over to the next game, I imagine we might have a situation where the biggest threat against the galaxy is not a single enemy.

The Reaper war will leave a lot of things unstable once it ends. The Batarians are mostly gone, the mighty Turian military is crushed, the Asari have been revealed to be hoarding Prothean tech and the Salarians face interal division as parts of the military disagree heavily with the Dalatress handling of the war.

On the other hand we got several races potentially on the rise. The Qurian / Geth, the Krogan and the Rachni all seeking to become an important part of the galaxy once again, seeking to expand.

It will lead to change and change will inevitably lead to some hostility as each race has its own ideas of what direction the war torn and rebuilding galaxy should take and what role they should play.

A game could easily be centered around this, with the enemy beeing the unstable galaxy itself as you strive to prevent new conflicts between the weakened races and uniting them in rebuilding the galaxy in proper.

Not the epic war of the Reapers, but do we need that now? We had three games of epic war, what about a change of pace, exploring a different angle to "saving" the galaxy.

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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by DSharrah on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:41 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:If the Reaper threat is not carried over to the next game, I imagine we might have a situation where the biggest threat against the galaxy is not a single enemy.

The Reaper war will leave a lot of things unstable once it ends. The Batarians are mostly gone, the mighty Turian military is crushed, the Asari have been revealed to be hoarding Prothean tech and the Salarians face interal division as parts of the military disagree heavily with the Dalatress handling of the war.

On the other hand we got several races potentially on the rise. The Qurian / Geth, the Krogan and the Rachni all seeking to become an important part of the galaxy once again, seeking to expand.

It will lead to change and change will inevitably lead to some hostility as each race has its own ideas of what direction the war torn and rebuilding galaxy should take and what role they should play.

A game could easily be centered around this, with the enemy beeing the unstable galaxy itself as you strive to prevent new conflicts between the weakened races and uniting them in rebuilding the galaxy in proper.

Not the epic war of the Reapers, but do we need that now? We had three games of epic war, what about a change of pace, exploring a different angle to "saving" the galaxy.

Agreed. I think that a proper expansion to ME 3 would foreshadow this and set-up ME 4 quite well (and in fact could still be the next DLC, which we hope has the holy grail - the IT Reveal).
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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by windsurfing on Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:51 am

Davik Kang wrote:You also have the effect of betrayal it may have on the number of fans who didn't choose Destroy, and a further feeling of betrayal that might be caused by making the very last choice in the game actually a non-choice, and worse, a choice that you might have made wrong, making your Shepard's effort to save the galaxy a complete failure based on a lie.

Those who killed their Shepards in ME2 can also feel betrayed they didn't get to use a new character with a new back story in ME3, there were speculations, ranging from wild and the reasonable, from Joker to a new N7 marine.

Bioware is clever enough to know too many choices are a problem, they have kept the choice's impact to a minimum and as far as to the point they outright force the player to have a living Shepard in ME2. Their marketing on 'choice' is selective.

An I.T like reveal is going to piss off a group of people, but the same people are also the ones who said they wont buy DLC but they ended up buying the so called pointless DLCs anyway. Bioware and especially EA know sheep when they see one (am not sorry for saying this its the way business works). Only a select few will really be pissed for a long time. With an I.T like reveal the studio and this franchise will cement its place in the hall of fame as one of the all time greats perhaps even the greatest of story telling in a game. No game has evoked such a fanbase response in my memory since gaming actually began on the PC and simple consoles back in the days.

It doesnt even have to be I.T, infact any post ending DLC that shows the real state of affairs unthought by players is going to piss off a few people. Doesn't matter now, EA/Bioware have gone this far with "speculations for everyone", they can shamelessly go much further and the best part is the people will buy into it throwing their money at EA/bioware.
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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by BleedingUranium on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:34 am

Davik Kang wrote:You also have the effect of betrayal it may have on the number of fans who didn't choose Destroy, and a further feeling of betrayal that might be caused by making the very last choice in the game actually a non-choice, and worse, a choice that you might have made wrong, making your Shepard's effort to save the galaxy a complete failure based on a lie.

And? Are you saying people shouldn't be able to make choices that lead to failure? I don't recall every squadmate being able to do every task in the suicide mission, and there was no clear way to know who could ahead of time, just what you'd learned about the characters. It was a test of your knowledge and how much you had paid attention, just like the end choice of ME3.

Assuming IT is true, the end choice was always a choice with one right option.
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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:21 pm

Oh noes! This game punishes me for making bad choices! Woe is me!

*runs to mommy and cries*

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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by spotlessvoid on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:46 pm

For an open ending to work there has to be multiple valid interpretations. Literal is retarded garbage. Which makes it an is it IT or is it retarded garbage question. I'd like the answer to that question, and I'd like the resolution of the overwhelmingly primary plot line of a 150+ hours long narrative. I'd also like to see Bioware get redemption. Most of all, after all these months of speculation, it would be fucking awesome.
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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by Raistlin Majere on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:49 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Oh noes! This game punishes me for making bad choices! Woe is me!

*runs to mommy and cries*

That is like crying because Deus Ex: HR punishes you for receiving that free augment upgrade because you were too stupid to notice where the plot was going.

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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by windsurfing on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:50 pm

spotlessvoid wrote:For an open ending to work there has to be multiple valid interpretations. Literal is retarded garbage. Which makes it an is it IT or is it retarded garbage question. I'd like the answer to that question, and I'd like the resolution of the overwhelmingly primary plot line of a 150+ hours long narrative. I'd also like to see Bioware get redemption. Most of all, after all these months of speculation, it would be fucking awesome.

Damn straight.
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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by Raistlin Majere on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:51 pm

spotlessvoid wrote:For an open ending to work there has to be multiple valid interpretations. Literal is retarded garbage. Which makes it an is it IT or is it retarded garbage question. I'd like the answer to that question, and I'd like the resolution of the overwhelmingly primary plot line of a 150+ hours long narrative. I'd also like to see Bioware get redemption. Most of all, after all these months of speculation, it would be fucking awesome.

If there is not something hidden, a reveal, something after all these months I will be very, very pissed.

Cause then Bioware has been dragging us along for a year with vague statements instead of coming out and saying directly, "it is not IT, dont get your hopes up." On the hand that they havent done this and keep beeing vague gives me hope.

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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by umadcommander on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:50 pm

spotlessvoid wrote:For an open ending to work there has to be multiple valid interpretations. Literal is retarded garbage. Which makes it an is it IT or is it retarded garbage question. I'd like the answer to that question, and I'd like the resolution of the overwhelmingly primary plot line of a 150+ hours long narrative. I'd also like to see Bioware get redemption. Most of all, after all these months of speculation, it would be fucking awesome.
damn straight, literal is garbage and headcanon is lazy and unsatisfying

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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by Eryri on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:57 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:Oh noes! This game punishes me for making bad choices! Woe is me!

*runs to mommy and cries*

That is like crying because Deus Ex: HR punishes you for receiving that free augment upgrade because you were too stupid to notice where the plot was going.

Yes! Excellent example. Although I admit, I got the upgrade, then got cold feet and reloaded a save from before that point and then continued the game. I was delighted when that decision paid off.
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Re: Magnetite's internal struggle

Post by Eryri on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:59 pm

umadcommander wrote:
spotlessvoid wrote:For an open ending to work there has to be multiple valid interpretations. Literal is retarded garbage. Which makes it an is it IT or is it retarded garbage question. I'd like the answer to that question, and I'd like the resolution of the overwhelmingly primary plot line of a 150+ hours long narrative. I'd also like to see Bioware get redemption. Most of all, after all these months of speculation, it would be fucking awesome.
damn straight, literal is garbage and headcanon is lazy and unsatisfying

Agreed on every point.
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