Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Arian Dynas on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:26 pm

The "United States" were conceived as a confederacy; The Articles of Confederation were our prior governmental document. I'm glad with the concept of the Federal Government, despite what they do, because it is a pretty good way of running a system.

But, well, America really IS a melting pot, despite the disagreement of my Anthropology professors; because when people moved here they gave up their old homes and became something new; you arrived Tuscan or Etruscan, but you stayed as an Italian-American.

This proposed European Confederacy would be a salad.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Restrider on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:33 pm

What do you mean with salad?
Bigger chunks mixed together in contrast to a melting pot, where the chunks are on a microscopic scale?

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by RavenEyry on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:44 pm

It's funny that Lincoln was a republican and the party was actually the moderate alternative when first founded. (Thanks 30 Rock)

And I also feel we should leave the EU unless it gets a major overhaul fast. I would only ever vote for OMRL if they had a candidate around here, I don't like any of the 'proper' parties. So basically the AV referendum was the only time I've ever voted.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Rifneno on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:06 pm

RavenEyry wrote:It's funny that Lincoln was a republican and the party was actually the moderate alternative when first founded. (Thanks 30 Rock)

And I also feel we should leave the EU unless it gets a major overhaul fast. I would only ever vote for OMRL if they had a candidate around here, I don't like any of the 'proper' parties. So basically the AV referendum was the only time I've ever voted.

If I were to go with "it's funny that Lincoln is a Republican because...", it'd be because to this day there's rumors that he was gay. Of course, I guess that's not so surprising. Whenever a politician gets caught with a dick in his mouth, it's always a bible thumping right winger.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Hrothdane on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:30 pm

Honestly, Lincoln was most likely asexual. The rumors of him being gay largely spring out of him not showing much interest in women, but I have yet to hear of any evidence of him having interest in men. Honestly, if I had his crazy shrew of a wife, I might get turned off from women, too.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:31 pm

When politicians change but policies don't you have to look for the constant.
Anyone who thinks that power doesn't seek to expand it's reach hasn't paid attention to human history. Nothing has been more destructive to the people then the privatization of money and debt creation. The revolving door between Wall St, Industry, Military, and Government has created a system so corrupt, so removed from the people, that government b has become an oppressive force instead of representing the will of the people. Powerful interests are running the show and their agenda is the same as it always is. Absolute control.People need to reassert their freedoms before there are none left
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Eryri on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:34 pm

RavenEyry wrote:It's funny that Lincoln was a republican and the party was actually the moderate alternative when first founded. (Thanks 30 Rock)


Really? I didn't know that. So were the Democrats right wingers then, or was there some other party filling the loony niche?
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:41 pm

Politicians aren't the ones in power. Powerful interests that finance them are. It's a two headed monster with the same ultimate agenda. Western hegemony. This isn't really that shocking, given this has been the behavior of empire throughout human history. The economic and military warfare throughout the world clearly illustrates that things haven't changed. The people have changed, but Power continues it's destructive ambitions.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:44 pm

Republicans believe in the use of dominating by force, where the Democrats prefer a more subversive approach. Both are beholden to the true seat of power, the one constant: Financial Oligarchy
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:48 pm

Eryri


Learn the difference between classical conservatives and modern neocons

These modern parties are both leftwing. They represent at their core collectivism
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Eryri on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:53 pm

So was there another party in opposition to the Republicans back then?

I'm genuinely curious, I have very limited knowledge even of British history.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:54 pm

Think of it like this

While you guys debate the merits of their supposed ideologies, they debate how manipulate those ideologies to further expand their power. Most politicians are only out to expand their personal power and fortune. Some however are actively working towards the larger agenda of global hegemony and the absolute domination of the domestic front. Basically, destroy all competing powers and keep the people at home feeding the engine of global supremacy THIS has become the American system.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Restrider on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:10 pm

Things will start to be funny, when the system of paper-money collapses... :D

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:13 pm

Gun Control




“If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.” - Anonymous American adage

“The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.” – Samuel Adams

“Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American…” – Tench Coxe 1788

“The Constitution preserves “the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation…(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” - James Madison, The Federalist, No. 46

“Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas.” - Joseph Stalin

“In earlier times, it was easier to control one million people than to physically kill one million people; today, it is infinitely easier to kill one million people than to control one million people.” - Zbigniew Brzezinski

“Death solves all problems – no man, no problem.” - Joseph Stalin

“Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed.” - Joseph Stalin

“The only real power comes out of a long rifle.” -Joseph Stalin

“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.” –Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers

“Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority. Firearms and ammunition found in a Jew’s possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation. Whoever willfully or negligently violates the provisions will be punished with imprisonment and a fine.” - Nazi Law (Regulations Against Jews’ Possession of Weapons), 1938

“Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property… Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.” –Thomas Paine

“It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

“When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.” - Thomas Jefferson

“Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn’t.” –Ben Franklin

“If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves.” - Joseph Stalin

“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.” – Thomas Jefferson

“A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” – George Washington

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.” – Patrick Henry

“Are we at last brought to such an humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense?” –Patrick Henry

“The right of the people to keep and bear…arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country…” –James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789)

“(The Constitution preserves) the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation…(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” –James Madison

“If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government…” – Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist (#28)

“To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them.” – George Mason

“The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.” – Noah Webster, “An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (1787)

“A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.” –Thomas Jefferson, Rights of British America, 1774

“The balance of power is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong.” - Thomas Paine, “Thoughts on Defensive War”, July, 1775

“Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.” - Mao Zedong, “Problems of War and Strategy”, 1938

“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.” - Richard Henry Lee, 1778

“The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible.” -Hubert Humphrey, “Know Your Lawmakers”, Guns magazine, February 1960

“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing.” - Adolf Hitler, April 1942

“If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a century and a half of trying — that they must sweep under the rug the southern attempts at gun control in the 1870-1910 period, the northeastern attempts in the 1920-1939 period, the attempts at both Federal and State levels in 1965-1976 — establishes the repeated, complete and inevitable failure of gun laws to control serious crime.” - Orrin Hatch, “The Right to Keep and Bear Arms”

“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn’t do it. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military.” – William S. Burroughs, 1991

“The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.” - George Washington
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:14 pm

Restrider wrote:Things will start to be funny, when the system of paper-money collapses... :D

That is a mathematical inevitability
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:23 pm

A debt based monetary system where the issuance of fiat currency accrues interest is mathematically untenable. Every unit of currency brought into circulation (mostly digitally) represents a debt obligation. Instead of being a certificate of deposit backed by a tangible asset,money is now a promissory note backed only by the collective future value of the currency issuers economy. If that wasn't bad enough,this process has been privatized. This means that every unit of currency -the principle-accrues interest,owed by the taxpayer. The insanity of this is that as more currency is created to pay off the interest, more interest is created. This system of debt monetization is not only inflationary, robbing the taxpayer of savings value (hidden tax,) it is an outright debt spiral. Since every unit of currency is a debt obligation and interest must be payed, and endless cycle of demand for credit creation is required just to keep up with interest. So,how is the endless demand for credit accomplished? Planned obsolescence. Our resources are wasted in such unfathomable ways,all in the name of creating consumer demand to ensure the continuation of economic power. However, a system based on infinite expansion is incompatible with a planet of finite resources
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by RavenEyry on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:25 pm

Counter to a common anti gun control argument: http://www.theonion.com/articles/gorilla-sales-skyrocket-after-latest-gorilla-attac,30860/
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:34 pm

RavenEyry wrote:Counter to a common anti gun control argument: http://www.theonion.com/articles/gorilla-sales-skyrocket-after-latest-gorilla-attac,30860/

What a bunch of retarded bullshit. Ever notice how gorillas only attack in gorilla free zones? And that these gorillas are always loaded up in highly dangerous psychotropic drugs?

As tragic as these events are, nothing compares to the death toll created by governments against it's own people. Disarming an entire people is how tyranny starts. You would be willing to trust the same people who wage war across the planet with your liberty?
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by RavenEyry on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:45 pm

I only agree to better gun control, not gun bans. People likely to go on a murderous rampage should find it harder to get a gun. And should have better access to mental health care.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:51 pm

That's not what gun control is about. You can't really stop crazy people. The stated goal of gun control advocates is total disarmament. This is explicitly stated.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by RavenEyry on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:53 pm

spotlessvoid wrote:That's not what gun control is about. You can't really stop crazy people. The stated goal of gun control advocates is total disarmament. This is explicitly stated.
And that is wrong. Guns can be useful in the right hands.

I'm just against all these gun supporters tat seem to think handing out guns to everyone will make it allright.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Hrothdane on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:58 pm

I don't know anyone that says we should ban all guns, and most of my friends are bleeding-heart socialists and liberal types. If I have to take a written and practical test to drive a car (which are quite dangerous), I don't see why a background check and proper oversight at the point-of-sale are problems.

Maybe there wouldn't be such a bad illegal gun problem if the NRA hadn't totally defanged the ATF. It's estimated that 50% of illegal guns in the US come from the same 1% of gun dealers, but the ATF is not allowed to keep track of gun transactions to trace them back to that 1%. The ATF is not allowed to inspect the same location more than once a year, not that that comes up often because they have so little manpower that they are lucky to check a store more than once every 17 years.

For goodness' sakes, gun dealers are not even required to keep inventory, nor do they have any legal obligation to withhold merchandise from someone that is obviously drunk or high.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:03 pm

What does in the right hands mean?

Thinking that it is within your rights to deny someone their's is a very slippery slope.

Violence and how to reduce it is a very complicated subject. Limiting the right of law abiding citizens to protect themselves from both individuals and government tyranny is a dangerous game.

This is exactly what I was referring to when I said that while you debate the validity of ideologies, those in power manipulate those ideologies. You say you want to stop crazy people from doing mass shootings and the politicians who play upon those fears instead are trying to enact laws that severely or remove altogether the right of all citizens to bear arms.

I'm not okay with defending myself with a hunting shotgun against a military assault rifle. The second amendment is foremost about the people keeping government power in check. Considering how corrupt, ruthless, and violent government is, I'll keep my real weapons.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:06 pm

Just because YOU don't want draconian gun laws doesn't mean the politicians you support aren't trying to! Read their damn writings and you will clearly see what the goal is
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:14 pm

I'm for mandatory training before being issued a permit. I'm not against violent criminals being denied one. I am against having to register which weapons you own and having to demonstrate why you need one.

Regardless, this is not the stated agenda of control lobbies and politicians.

The public must be allowed to keep weapons that are capable of engaging in combat with military troops, foreign or domestic
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

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