Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Andromidius on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:27 pm

Eryri wrote:
RavenEyry wrote:It's funny that Lincoln was a republican and the party was actually the moderate alternative when first founded. (Thanks 30 Rock)


Really? I didn't know that. So were the Democrats right wingers then, or was there some other party filling the loony niche?

The two major parties essentially switched places some time during the Cold War. Democrats used to be more isolationist and conservative.

As for gun control, education is the answer. When people know how to not only use a gun properly, but also look after their gun and make sure minors can't get hold of them or for house intruders to easily find and steal their guns, America will be a saver place. A large percentage of gun crime is commited either with stolen or smuggled weapons, and most of that is also over drugs. Also, no-one needs high powered fully automatic weaponry for 'home defense', so I'd just remove all 'support' from the market - no more replacement parts, no new guns, no new ammunition for such weapons. Eventually they'll run into disuse and less lethal weapons will replace them (i.e. hunting rifles, pistols, shotguns).

Which leads me to my final point - drugs need to be legalised. Not because drugs aren't harmful, but because they are. Legal drugs means more regulation (most OD's are due to the 'cut' and other contaminates), more education, more support for addicts, taxes and profit to improve the economy and finally it removes a criminal enterprise. Prohibition always leads to higher crime rates - not just because something is illegal, but because gangs can profit off it and will kill to maintain that control. If you can't sell second-rate dangerous substances to the desperate because they can get it cheaper and safer from legal outlets then the black market dries up.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:43 pm

Why is that people only wish to discuss their views and not the views of the politicians cause they support?

The leaders of the gun control movement have explicitly stated they are for total disarmament, at best offering limited and highly regulated access for hunting and sporting purposes, as exemplified best by their efforts in New York and Chicago.

The same people who commit atrocities and violate national sovereignty across the globe to expand their empire are to be entrusted with our freedom? Their's is the moral compass you would allow to guard our life and liberty?

Don't confuse academic discourse with real world politics. It is a battle for power, not a battle of ideas. The political process here is corrupt and antagonistic to the freedom of not only the American people, but to those all over the world. An armed population stands as a final line of defense against this. I'm 100% behind peaceful change, but I believe the people reserve the right to an alternative when that process breaks down. The American people should continue to protect that right, not just in case they one day need it, but because the very threat of this possibility helps keep tyranny at bay
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:48 pm

Hey Andro.

Some good points, but high powered rifles aren't for home defense. They are for national defense against occupying forces, foreign or domestic.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by RavenEyry on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:48 pm

I don't support any politicians, which is why I just gave my opinion on the matter. I wasn't purposely withholding information or anything. Also it really doesn't matter what american politician I support anyway.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Restrider on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:53 pm

You should check out the swiss weapon policy.
In Switzerland you have militias who regularly train, and I mean with real weaponry reaching from G3 to G36 (damn plastic rifles) and other ARs.
In general, Switzerland is a good example for a working democracy...
However I think there is a problem to scale it up to a nation of more than a few million inhabitants.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:03 pm

Everyone's world view influences those around them. The media plays on popular sentiment instead of rational discourse. When someone stated their "support for gun control" this contributes to the normalization of the concept and helps shift popular sentiment.

By publicly supporting the general concept, you indirectly aid in influencing the public narrative. Without detailed discussion, these ideas become memes supported by the masses who don't take the time to learn what is truly being done.

Reducing violent crime and mass shootings is a worthy endeavor, but the interests who play upon this public sentiment are only using it to further a much more expansive agenda. Economic policy, drug policy, an ever declining education system, and the revolving door between government and corporate power are exponentially more responsible for violent crime than the legal ownership of guns.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by BlueLogic on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:04 pm

Arian Dynas wrote:Sometimes I wonder if the Republican party realizes we already fought a war over what their policies are (Small state government, which is far more what the Civil War was about than Slavery.); and they lost.

You're more right than I'd like, but in the way that our (Republican/Conservative) ideas are often maligned rather than the assertion that the matter was settled by the war. Arguments for decentralizing power (tax dollars and responsibility) away from the Federal government and back to the States often are seen as wanting to "take the country backwards". There are a lot of people who think we're racists because we suggest the Federal government was never intended to have so much power over the States and the People. (The Vice President did say Republicans would "put yall back in chains" if given the chance.) Joe is truly a national treasure.

But I digress. In short, the war was fought over state rights, that is true. However, while states rightly lost any ability to enslave or otherwise deny a person their freedom in disregard of the constitution, that hardly translates into an end to the universal argument over the continued centralization of power.

Also, I'm a Southerner. *dives into cover* :)



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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:07 pm

Restrider wrote:You should check out the swiss weapon policy.
In Switzerland you have militias who regularly train, and I mean with real weaponry reaching from G3 to G36 (damn plastic rifles) and other ARs.
In general, Switzerland is a good example for a working democracy...
However I think there is a problem to scale it up to a nation of more than a few million inhabitants.

That's why the USA is a union of sovereign states, designed to have limited centralized government with a small set of functions. Each state is independent and sovereign, joining in a limited union for the betterment of the individual and the group, just like human beings
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by RavenEyry on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:10 pm

spotlessvoid wrote:Everyone's world view influences those around them.
You're right about that. As a citizen of hippy-dippy Europe I've never even seen a real gun outside of RAF bases, so I'm probably biased.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:16 pm

And American politics is global politics. Everyone should care because currently no other nation has so much power to influence global affairs. Between the Americans, British, and their key European allies, nobody dominates the global landscape like this. The influence of DC/NY, London, and Brussels have on global affairs continues to dwarf even the Russians and Chinese.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Eryri on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Andromidius wrote:
Eryri wrote:
RavenEyry wrote:It's funny that Lincoln was a republican and the party was actually the moderate alternative when first founded. (Thanks 30 Rock)


Really? I didn't know that. So were the Democrats right wingers then, or was there some other party filling the loony niche?

The two major parties essentially switched places some time during the Cold War. Democrats used to be more isolationist and conservative.


Thanks for the info. I'd always assumed they'd retained the same philosophy since they were formed. I really should try to learn more about history. I had to drop out of that subject at a fairly early stage in my education.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:44 pm

RavenEyry wrote:
spotlessvoid wrote:Everyone's world view influences those around them.
You're right about that. As a citizen of hippy-dippy Europe I've never even seen a real gun outside of RAF bases, so I'm probably biased.

I was born in Belgium. Lived there until I was 6. Spent every summer their until I was 14 and spent the ensuing school year there. Still a Belgian citizen and have traveled all over Europe. There are cultural differences and a generally better education system. The War industry is less influential, and the existence of a wider range of political parties, as well as many other factors have made European governments less aggressive than their American counterparts. Yet one need only look to Brussels to see how this is changing, and how truly in line with Anglo-American interests European politics is becoming, despite the internal struggle for influence and power, the overall agenda for the domination of the Western Establishment is the driving force. I don't trust them and Europeans may very well end up regretting trading in their liberty for security when they end up with neither
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Rifneno on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:06 am

Gun control is one of the few topics I side with the republicans on. Well, aside from the batshit crazy ones that think everyone should have an arsenal capable of putting Fort Knox under siege. But the democrats' solution to the "problem" is genuinely retarded. Our governor here is trying to ban semiautomatic weapons after that last school shooting. Right, because something like that will never happen again as long as take away a basic feature from legal weapons. Stupid asshole.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by boeloe on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:05 am

Rifneno wrote:Gun control is one of the few topics I side with the republicans on. Well, aside from the batshit crazy ones that think everyone should have an arsenal capable of putting Fort Knox under siege. But the democrats' solution to the "problem" is genuinely retarded. Our governor here is trying to ban semiautomatic weapons after that last school shooting. Right, because something like that will never happen again as long as take away a basic feature from legal weapons. Stupid asshole.

You're right, he is stupid, he should ban gun ownership altogether. Whistling

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Arian Dynas on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:29 am

Eryri wrote:
RavenEyry wrote:It's funny that Lincoln was a republican and the party was actually the moderate alternative when first founded. (Thanks 30 Rock)


Really? I didn't know that. So were the Democrats right wingers then, or was there some other party filling the loony niche?

First there were the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists. You can guess what they stood for.

Then there were the Southern Democrats and the Whigs. The Whigs were uninteresting and rather nondescript. The Southern Democrats were basically what the Republicans are now. Small government, Slavery, etc etc etc.

The Whig party fell apart, and the Republican party, originally the Abolitionist party stepped onto the scene. Then, over time, the Democrats and Republicans switched places, and then, when Bill Clinton came on the scene, and represented a more Conservative variety of Democrat. Things have been going downhill toward homogenization since.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Arian Dynas on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:34 am

boeloe wrote:
Rifneno wrote:Gun control is one of the few topics I side with the republicans on. Well, aside from the batshit crazy ones that think everyone should have an arsenal capable of putting Fort Knox under siege. But the democrats' solution to the "problem" is genuinely retarded. Our governor here is trying to ban semiautomatic weapons after that last school shooting. Right, because something like that will never happen again as long as take away a basic feature from legal weapons. Stupid asshole.

You're right, he is stupid, he should ban gun ownership altogether. Whistling

While I'm all for gun control, for different reasons than most, I agree with Rif on this one actually; "Yes, let's make laws to ban guns to keep people safe!" Yeah, because criminals are so known for obeying the law.

When I say I'm for gun control, it's to limit home accidents, suicides, school shootings, etc though unless that kid was using a semiautomatic, I doubt any kind of regulation on semiautos would have any kind of effect. More than is likely, he's just using the shooting to push an agenda.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Arian Dynas on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:39 am

spotlessvoid wrote:Why is that people only wish to discuss their views and not the views of the politicians cause they support?

The leaders of the gun control movement have explicitly stated they are for total disarmament, at best offering limited and highly regulated access for hunting and sporting purposes, as exemplified best by their efforts in New York and Chicago.

The same people who commit atrocities and violate national sovereignty across the globe to expand their empire are to be entrusted with our freedom? Their's is the moral compass you would allow to guard our life and liberty?

Don't confuse academic discourse with real world politics. It is a battle for power, not a battle of ideas. The political process here is corrupt and antagonistic to the freedom of not only the American people, but to those all over the world. An armed population stands as a final line of defense against this. I'm 100% behind peaceful change, but I believe the people reserve the right to an alternative when that process breaks down. The American people should continue to protect that right, not just in case they one day need it, but because the very threat of this possibility helps keep tyranny at bay

That is one of the two reasons the law was added; "to ensure the security of a free state," "well-regulated militia" and all that, and to keep the politicians honest with the fear of popular uprising.

I'd prefer the latter not come to pass, however.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Arian Dynas on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:41 am

Restrider wrote:You should check out the swiss weapon policy.
In Switzerland you have militias who regularly train, and I mean with real weaponry reaching from G3 to G36 (damn plastic rifles) and other ARs.
In general, Switzerland is a good example for a working democracy...
However I think there is a problem to scale it up to a nation of more than a few million inhabitants.

Note to self, consider Switzerland, study watchmaking.

Other than that I qualify; I love chocolate, and I'm a technical pacifist. (I won't go looking for a fight, but I won't hesitate to defend myself.)

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Arian Dynas on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:45 am

BlueLogic wrote:
Arian Dynas wrote:Sometimes I wonder if the Republican party realizes we already fought a war over what their policies are (Small state government, which is far more what the Civil War was about than Slavery.); and they lost.

You're more right than I'd like, but in the way that our (Republican/Conservative) ideas are often maligned rather than the assertion that the matter was settled by the war. Arguments for decentralizing power (tax dollars and responsibility) away from the Federal government and back to the States often are seen as wanting to "take the country backwards". There are a lot of people who think we're racists because we suggest the Federal government was never intended to have so much power over the States and the People. (The Vice President did say Republicans would "put yall back in chains" if given the chance.) Joe is truly a national treasure.

But I digress. In short, the war was fought over state rights, that is true. However, while states rightly lost any ability to enslave or otherwise deny a person their freedom in disregard of the constitution, that hardly translates into an end to the universal argument over the continued centralization of power.

Also, I'm a Southerner. *dives into cover* :)

Hey I agree with you; the Federal government and the states need to work in harmony; the Federal government looking out for the interests of the country, the states caring for their people; I'm just sick of the fact that both sides feel the need to exaggerate everything to the nth degree, and I do personally think that the federal government should be the one to determine the rights of the people, without the reservations that some states have, and distribute and protect said rights everywhere, equally.

As for Southerner; eh. Your cooking's too fatty for me, the accents are fun, and the climate's too hot. ;)

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:28 am

The Feds fuck up almost everything they get their hands on. Washington is filled with nothing but corruption. They don't need to be deciding anything.

And so what if someone has an arsenal? You can't fire all those guns at the same time.

In some future society we won't need guns. Great, I don't really like them all that much. For now though, they are very much a necessity
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:34 am

boeloe wrote:
Rifneno wrote:Gun control is one of the few topics I side with the republicans on. Well, aside from the batshit crazy ones that think everyone should have an arsenal capable of putting Fort Knox under siege. But the democrats' solution to the "problem" is genuinely retarded. Our governor here is trying to ban semiautomatic weapons after that last school shooting. Right, because something like that will never happen again as long as take away a basic feature from legal weapons. Stupid asshole.

You're right, he is stupid, he should ban gun ownership altogether. Whistling

I bet the police will protect you

People like you live in a fairy tale world.
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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Rifneno on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:01 am

Arian Dynas wrote:
While I'm all for gun control, for different reasons than most, I agree with Rif on this one actually; "Yes, let's make laws to ban guns to keep people safe!" Yeah, because criminals are so known for obeying the law.

When I say I'm for gun control, it's to limit home accidents, suicides, school shootings, etc though unless that kid was using a semiautomatic, I doubt any kind of regulation on semiautos would have any kind of effect. More than is likely, he's just using the shooting to push an agenda.

Even if he was using a semiautomatic, so what? Should we also outlaw the brand of gun he was using? The gun wasn't the problem. A crazy asshole was the problem. You can't stop crazy assholes from existing. If we had reliable news reports from the middle ages, I guaran-fucking-tee there'd be stories about crazy assholes occasionally shooting some place up with a damn crossbow or something. There's always going to be crazy people. Outlawing weapons because 0.00001% of the population is going to go batshit crazy is like outlawing cars that go faster than 20 MPH because people die in car accidents. And a hell of a lot more people die in car accidents than crazy shooting sprees.

Oh, and suicides is another awful reason. People will just find another way to die. Besides, it's their life. They can do what they damn well please with it. If they don't think it's worth living, that's their business.

spotlessvoid wrote:
boeloe wrote:
Rifneno wrote:Gun control is one of the few topics I side with the republicans on. Well, aside from the batshit crazy ones that think everyone should have an arsenal capable of putting Fort Knox under siege. But the democrats' solution to the "problem" is genuinely retarded. Our governor here is trying to ban semiautomatic weapons after that last school shooting. Right, because something like that will never happen again as long as take away a basic feature from legal weapons. Stupid asshole.

You're right, he is stupid, he should ban gun ownership altogether. Whistling

I bet the police will protect you

People like you live in a fairy tale world.

I remember when I lost that naive belief of the police being worth a damn. I'm helping my elderly mother with a paper route. It's 2 AM. Some guy starts following us. And I don't mean "he was making a few turns the same as we were", I mean he was following us down deserted roads and making action movie style u-turns at full speed when necessary. We call 911 on the cell phone. 20 minutes on the phone with some useless whore of a cop with a crazy asshole chasing us. She never even sent a squad car to investigate. She basically sat on the phone telling us we're exaggerating for 20 minutes. Best part was, right after it was finally over, we ran across a squad car at a stop light like a block away. They were right in the area and she didn't bother to tell them.

Yeah, this society needs guns. Period.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by spotlessvoid on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:09 am

If you're ever had someone break into your home you'd realize why you need a gun. Nothing has such a profound effect on the criminal mind as the sound of a weapon being cocked.

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Rifneno on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:10 am

spotlessvoid wrote:If you're ever had someone break into your home you'd realize why you need a gun. Nothing has such a profound effect on the criminal mind as the sound of a weapon being cocked.


What about the sound of a weapon firing?

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

Post by Fur28 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:14 am

Rifneno wrote:
spotlessvoid wrote:If you're ever had someone break into your home you'd realize why you need a gun. Nothing has such a profound effect on the criminal mind as the sound of a weapon being cocked.


What about the sound of a weapon firing?
Headshot, he wont be able to think Wink

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Re: Politics. Dirty, dirty, politics.

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