Major Coats, we are all onto you.

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by jojon2se on Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:55 pm

To really bring things out of what can be seen in the actual game; When we left him, back in the untruncated version of the teaser trailer, it was with a descending Reaper shining a spotlight on him... :P

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Terramine on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:39 am

@Andromidius: I agree completely, they drew attention to it for literally no purpose unless there is something more than meets the eye. They were aware of how deep we've been speculating. I find it all the more enlightening that someone inevitably flycammed the EC. Why did they do that? Oh yeah, to try and see if anything was amiss because that's how Bioware's fans are and Bioware knows that.

@Lokanaiya: It's possible but you'd have to assume Anderson wasn't real either and yet here he is leading the resistance. Unless Anderson is also indoctrinated.

@Restrider: Exactly, that's how I feel too. He is completely out of place otherwise, so in a reveal I'd watch out for him because he is suspect and likely dangerous.


@jonjon2se: Well there have been ideas passed around before about the Trailers being relevant to speculating. Quite interesting indeed :P

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Lokanaiya on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:59 am

IronicParticle wrote:
@Lokanaiya: It's possible but you'd have to assume Anderson wasn't real either and yet here he is leading the resistance. Unless Anderson is also indoctrinated.

I hate to say it, but it is possible. He's been on Earth and thus around Reaper tech ever since the invasion began-- in other words, much, much longer than Shepard ever has. As leader of the resistance, he'd be a priority target for indoctrination, also... And if you want to get meta, he's the closest thing to a mentor that we have in Mass Effect, and this role was especially evident in ME3. I'm not saying he's that he's definitely in the process of indoctrination, but it is a distinct possibility. Sad
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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Terramine on Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:20 am

Lokanaiya wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
@Lokanaiya: It's possible but you'd have to assume Anderson wasn't real either and yet here he is leading the resistance. Unless Anderson is also indoctrinated.

I hate to say it, but it is possible. He's been on Earth and thus around Reaper tech ever since the invasion began-- in other words, much, much longer than Shepard ever has. As leader of the resistance, he'd be a priority target for indoctrination, also... And if you want to get meta, he's the closest thing to a mentor that we have in Mass Effect, and this role was especially evident in ME3. I'm not saying he's that he's definitely in the process of indoctrination, but it is a distinct possibility. Sad
It could easily be possible, just thought I'd clarify. It's possible there may be a point where Harbinger gets desperate during a reveal and starts controlling your squad mates as well as people like Anderson and make them turn on you. Sure would be interesting :l

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:50 am

IronicParticle wrote:@Selim: come on, Shepard would be DEAD if he got hit with that beam. As evidenced by Rannoch, and while some can say "weaker beam"... why is there a weaker beam?
We talk about the explosion on the citadel being equal to millions of nuclear bombs, but when there is an instant kill beam it can be weakened for literally no reason at all? I mean some literalists have circumvented the breathe scene problem by using the explanation that Shepard is sent back down to earth through the beam. While that doesn't sound like it's likely to be true, it's as reasonable as the explanation given for why Shepard survives that beam.
"he was in London since day 1..." How isn't he indoctrinated? How many days around Reapers, Reaper minions, and Reaper tech has he endured? The top of his hair is enough, and Bioware knew we'd flycam it anyways. Someone was bound to notice that the hair looks like coats and BAM here it is.
Shepard is at the top of the hill, armor in tact. No beams of nonsensical raisins involved. IMO anyways because it makes the most sense. Shepard could end up waking back at the FOB with his/her squadmates there ready to explain what the hell messed with the vehicle in the first place, because if Shepard did get hit by that beam then at the very least there is the gaping plot hole of what exactly caused the mako/thing to crash in the first place.
The reason for Harbinger to set his beam to stun is obvious: why kill what you can control? Shepard brought the entire galaxy together, so what better way to defeat them than turn their savior against their best interests?

If Coates is indoctrinated from that, then everyone who stayed on Earth is. Yet Coates is almost as adament about killing the Reapers as Hackett is. Indoctrination makes you view Reapers as basically gods. What religious person wants to kill the deity they worship?
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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:55 am

@IronicParticle (this goes to previous post directly above)
As for where the indoctrination attempt starts, I disagree. The "plothole" about what wrecks the M77 was simply a pothole caused by the Reaper remodeling for their Conduit. There is no warning of anything beforehand, and after all Shepard has been through, a bump on the head would not be the trigger for the attempt.
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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Terramine on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:28 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:*snip*
*snip*
He doesn't need to hit him with a beam for that to happen, there is yet to be an explanation to why Shepard acts like the crash didn't happen just like a person doesn't remember how they got there in a dream. Then there is the fact that there is no way in hell anyone is going to distract Harbinger, he is the don fucking omega of Reapers. If Shepard is lying there with Harbinger there, then he WILL die because nothing would stop harbinger unless 4 dreadnaughts suddenly attack him. Not to mention, this whole plan is stupid.. at the very least if the mako crash was real, it'd give Shepard time to realize they'd need to fall back. So would Anderson, so this is why I think it happens at the mako crash, because that's when it makes sense.

You are also not making sense about Coats, of all people an ITer should be aware that indoctrination is SUBTLE. A Reaper Agent will not tell you they are helping the Reapers, unless of course they have nothing to lose. Saren for example thought he had too much power to be stopped so once his cover was blown he was proud to admit he was sucking that Reaper tentacle lol. But the point to Coats being indoctrinated is that he is sort of a "well placed" agent... so he can't go saying he's helping the Reapers.

What pothole? Shepard does not need to be knocked unconscious, because when we look at the Geth consensus Shepard never got knocked out. It was a seamless transition from being awake, to being in the consensus with no fade to black or anything. However we know that Shepard's real body was still inside of that thing, not moving or anything. Shepard becomes unconscious BECAUSE the Reapers are making the attempt.. not because he hit his head. To him, he got back up after the crash. But in reality he is unconscious, it was just a 100% seamless transition.

It hardly makes sense that Shepard is near that beam, and that Harbinger even arrived yet.

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:54 am

I don't get what you mean by not reacting to the M77 (that is what that vehicle is) crash. What do you expect them to behave like? they were where it was taking them. As for nothing distracting Harbinger, with all his attention now on both defending the Reaper Conduit and intoctrinating Shepard it is actially quite simple to have a ship fire st him. This would force Harbinger to not focus on the path to the beam but instead turn to face his attacker, buying time for a stealth-equipped shuttle to fly in, pick up Shepard, fly out. A good pilot and crew can do that under a minute.

I know indoctrination is subtle, but never counterproductive. Never has someone under Reaper control believed that the Reapers should be destroyed, but instead use vague phrases like stopped or defeated. Meanwhile Coates and his men flat out state the Reapers should be killed.

The giant hole the M77 is stuck in. IT was a play on words since you said it was a plothole. Regardless, in every virtual reality, from Matrix to ./Hack, your body is knocked unconcious as a result of your mind entering the digital realm to control your avatar. That is why your squad after the Geth Consensus ask you what happened. If you were still concious, they'd hear your talks with Legion. Also you argue Shepard doesnt need to be unconcious yet later say they are. which is it?


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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by CSSteele on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:40 am

You don't have to be unconcious for the attempt to -start-. Once you slip into the dream/meta-state of the hallucination, you definitely would be unconcious.

I need to replay Priority:Earth again, because I don't recall hearing Coates say the words 'Destroy the Reapers'. Anyone else have any confirmation on that?

There's a lot of debate on WHERE the last bit started, and none of us have come to a full on consensus with it. I personally believe Cronos is strange/off just enough that it could start as far back as that.
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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:36 am

When shepard lures the destroyer into position where Thanix missiles, which as we know "do a f*ckton of damage", Coats fires his missiles. That fact alone tells me he is not indoctrinated because as I said, you do not attack the thing you worship. Even if it meant exposing him as an agent, the Reapers would have made him do anything possible to stop the attack on their brother. They are driven solely by self-preservation, after al. We see similar situations when Dr. Kenson drops her guise when Shepard threatens the arrival of the Reapers. We also see it when TIM gets angry when Shepard is going to destroy the Collector Base. TIM, who seemed to have no problem with any of Shepard's decisions up at that point, suddenly freaks out and tells Shepard not to do it, and even tries ordering Miranda to stop Shepard from doing so.
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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:56 am

I think it's only one in the grip of Indoctrination (one way or another) that freaks out.

One can still be under some influence of indoc but want to destroy the Reapers.

However, it's only a matter of time and amplification of indoc, before they warp over to the side of control/synthesis/worship.

If the Reapers have indoctrinated military leaders in the past, don't you think those leaders would have been exposed immediately if they had a Reaper in their army's sight and they didn't give SOME form of attack order?

Coates can be indoc if only for the basic fact that he organized the beam run. That's the disastrous plan he can be a sleeper agent for. He can be a 'good soldier' for everything else, as long as he is guided by indoc to take everyone (especially Shepard) on the beam run.

Same as Shepard can be affected by indoc for a whole game while killing Reapers, but if they can just affect him enough to slip up on a major action - Reapers win.

Make no mistake, I actually think that picking Destroy only means that the Reapers' hold on Shepard is lost, not that Shepard has 'CURED INDOCTRINATION'. Nope, he's still affected. His brain won't recover, with the info we know about indoc so far.

But he can resist and fight. And someone with indoc can still fight, up to a point.

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:00 am

"Never has someone under Reaper control believed that the Reapers should be destroyed"

Yet someone under Reaper influence can easily lie about wanting the Reapers to be destroyed.

Killing some husks and a destroyer does not = free from indoctrination. The husks are shock troops and are meant to keep a population busy dealing with them. Destroyers are made of lesser species and they're not a major loss to the Reapers imo - only the sapient(?) capital ships are.

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:02 am

i wouldnt trust anyone who has been in london for long - and that includes Anderson

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:11 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
If Coates is indoctrinated from that, then everyone who stayed on Earth is. Yet Coates is almost as adament about killing the Reapers as Hackett is. Indoctrination makes you view Reapers as basically gods. What religious person wants to kill the deity they worship?

Yes. The battle is far more widespread and subtle than Bioware is training the audience to believe.

"There is no war, there is only the harvest."

"You are an anomaly, and I must understand why."

We can only beat the Reapers if we can beat indoctrination. That is something that may only be told in DLC (hello Rioooo!).


BTW low intensity indoctrination doesn't make someone worship the Reapers.
-first they are guided along certain actions without being aware of it (COATES, imo)
-then they are let to believe that those actions were correct all along (early KENSON)
-then they utilize the technology and methods of the Reapers in order to reinforce those guided actions (early TIM and early SAREN)
-then they embrace the Reapers, but still think they can control or stop them from killing everyone (late KENSON, late TIM, late SAREN)
-then they worship the Reapers and don't think the cycle is all that bad (end KENSON, possible end TIM, end SAREN)

The outright SLAVE worship without any individual care comes from mid to high intensity indoc. Or 'wild' indoc like what was radiating from the Derelict Reaper.

One is only fully 'clicked into' indoc once they believe the Reapers should or will always exist, but one that is only under the effects of indoctrination will still be able to struggle with enough will power, or they're intentionally given a long enough leash to be a GOOD sleeper agent.

Make no mistake, if Coates is indoc and outlives his usefulness, the Reapers will be right happy to turn his indoc up to 11 and make him a gibbering idiot.

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:14 am

dork wrote:i wouldnt trust anyone who has been in london for long - and that includes Anderson

I trust Anderson. If Coates is a sleeper agent sent in order to subvert Anderson until he succumbs properly to Indoc suggested thoughts, then that would imply that Anderson is still fully resisting and will be useful in any Earth related DLC content.

I think Anderson was shown to be shooting the tubes for a reason.

Hell, I can even head fanfic right now, a DLC where we take control of Shepard if we picked Destroy, or Anderson if we picked the others.

Anderson will be fine, even if he's touched by indoc like how I think *every other main character is*. *tin foil hat*

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by southbeatz on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:19 am

I don't think Anderson would ever be fully indoctrinated. I think he would shoot himself before betraying Shepard. In ME1 Anderson gives up the Normandy for Shepard. After ME2 Anderson gives up his seat on the council to help keep Shepard from being court marshaled. I don't think the game directly says that but it's the impression I got. On ME3 Anderson gives the Normandy back to Shepard so Shepard can try to unite the galaxy and get help to fight the Reapers.
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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:23 am

not fully. just don't believe he would be 'untouched' by indoctrination. hell a full on head on charge at harbinger was a really great idea. any military strategy out the window.

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:23 am

southbeatz wrote:I don't think Anderson would ever be fully indoctrinated. I think he would shoot himself before betraying Shepard. In ME1 Anderson gives up the Normandy for Shepard. After ME2 Anderson gives up his seat on the council to help keep Shepard from being court marshaled. I don't think the game directly says that but it's the impression I got. On ME3 Anderson gives the Normandy back to Shepard so Shepard can try to unite the galaxy and get help to fight the Reapers.

Full agreement. He knows the stakes, and he's one of the few who knows what to watch for.

So, like Liara getting a 'minder' from the Shadow Broker (who I feel is actually an arms-length agent of the Reapers) in ME2, Coats could be the 'minder' for Anderson.

Neither will know about the betrayal until Shepard assists with it :) (Shep exposes the spy on Liara)

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:27 am

dork wrote:not fully. just don't believe he would be 'untouched' by indoctrination. hell a full on head on charge at harbinger was a really great idea. any military strategy out the window.

And I think everyone else is compromised for going along with this plan.

Javik? Military man? No?

Kaidan? Don't you think this is too risky?

etc.

EDI? Remember she even SAYS that the Reapers have everyone in a position where they could even be holding back.... but Shepard then just asks her if she's afraid.

I think everyone's a little screwed up, and it's not the writing's fault. I think this really is the end of the line - and the fight is to free the future from the taint of the Reapers.

A Grey Warden always gets corrupted in the end, but they ensure the survival of the future.

(yes I'm mixing up my IPs)

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:41 am

You see, Anderson being indoctrinated would make more sense, sheerly out of a story-telling perspective.

Option A: Your best friend and mentor is indoctrinated, leading to an emotional and dramatic scene of stopping him.

Option B: Random soldier you just met is indoctrinated, leading to a scene with no emotion or drama whatsoever.
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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by southbeatz on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:50 am

Selim Bradley wrote:You see, Anderson being indoctrinated would make more sense, sheerly out of a story-telling perspective.

Option A: Your best friend and mentor is indoctrinated, leading to an emotional and dramatic scene of stopping him.

Option B: Random soldier you just met is indoctrinated, leading to a scene with no emotion or drama whatsoever.

Well I hope they don't add any type of scene where Shepard has to kill Anderson. I never would kill Mordin or Wrex, although Mordin will do it himself basically regardless so if they did make Anderson indoctrinated I'd hope they'd do it right. I hope they don't play the suicide thing for a 3rd time though, that'd be old. First we talked down Saren and via paragon he can shoot himself, same with TIM on ME3. I'd rather them not try that a 3rd time. I don't know what Bioware's real plan was but if they wanted people to talk about the game... I think they've accomplished that by far lol. It's getting closer to a year now and people still talk regularly about the Mass Effect series.
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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:53 am

southbeatz wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:You see, Anderson being indoctrinated would make more sense, sheerly out of a story-telling perspective.

Option A: Your best friend and mentor is indoctrinated, leading to an emotional and dramatic scene of stopping him.

Option B: Random soldier you just met is indoctrinated, leading to a scene with no emotion or drama whatsoever.

Well I hope they don't add any type of scene where Shepard has to kill Anderson. I never would kill Mordin or Wrex, although Mordin will do it himself basically regardless so if they did make Anderson indoctrinated I'd hope they'd do it right. I hope they don't play the suicide thing for a 3rd time though, that'd be old. First we talked down Saren and via paragon he can shoot himself, same with TIM on ME3. I'd rather them not try that a 3rd time. I don't know what Bioware's real plan was but if they wanted people to talk about the game... I think they've accomplished that by far lol. It's getting closer to a year now and people still talk regularly about the Mass Effect series.
Oh, I don't mean you would have to kill him, just stop him. Killing him would be one of to do so, but since he isn't as indoctrinated as Saren or TIM I think you can talk him into having himself confined for security reasons.
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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:55 am

southbeatz wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:You see, Anderson being indoctrinated would make more sense, sheerly out of a story-telling perspective.

Option A: Your best friend and mentor is indoctrinated, leading to an emotional and dramatic scene of stopping him.

Option B: Random soldier you just met is indoctrinated, leading to a scene with no emotion or drama whatsoever.

Well I hope they don't add any type of scene where Shepard has to kill Anderson. I never would kill Mordin or Wrex, although Mordin will do it himself basically regardless so if they did make Anderson indoctrinated I'd hope they'd do it right.

for the mission to succeed if anderson becomes a threat to the success of that mission for whatever reason then shepard would have to have the mental strength to do whats necessary. It would be utterly heartbreaking to be sure, but Andersons mind might have been lost when he stayed behind imo. What a choice for Shep to have to face.

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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:56 am

dork wrote:
southbeatz wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:You see, Anderson being indoctrinated would make more sense, sheerly out of a story-telling perspective.

Option A: Your best friend and mentor is indoctrinated, leading to an emotional and dramatic scene of stopping him.

Option B: Random soldier you just met is indoctrinated, leading to a scene with no emotion or drama whatsoever.

Well I hope they don't add any type of scene where Shepard has to kill Anderson. I never would kill Mordin or Wrex, although Mordin will do it himself basically regardless so if they did make Anderson indoctrinated I'd hope they'd do it right.

for the mission to succeed if anderson becomes a threat to the success of that mission for whatever reason then shepard would have to have the mental strength to do whats necessary. It would be utterly heartbreaking to be sure, but Andersons mind might have been lost when he stayed behind imo. What a choice for Shep to have to face.
Exactly.
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Re: Major Coats, we are all onto you.

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:04 am

that truly would be heartbreaking for the player - and shepard as well as maybe Ash/Kaiden/chakwas/etc...

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