Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

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Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by leafs43 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:19 pm

on Shepard and have some results where the reapers were not.


Can someone please explain to me how TIM's indoctrination powers far exceed those of the reapers?

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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:39 pm

leafs43 wrote:on Shepard and have some results where the reapers were not.


Can someone please explain to me how TIM's indoctrination powers far exceed those of the reapers?

What TIM did can not even be called Indoctrination since it ahd nothing to do with altering Shepards mind, he merely controlled Shepard's body. It was closer to biotic fine manipulation.

Which is why largely why it is considered part of the Indoctrination vision / dream / whatever you want yo call it. It is taking place in Shepards mind.

A common interpretation is that TIM and Anderson represent the Indoctrinated and non Indoctrinated part of Shepard's mind fighting for control and what we see is an attempt to outright break Shepard as opposed to tricking him into Indoctrination.

Also even from a litteral perspective it is not TIM trying to control Shepard but the Reapers through TIM. This is fimrly established by the Catalyst saying, "but he could not have taken control cause we allready controlled him." From a litteral perspective no matter what TIM does (minus shooting himself), no matter what he says, he is ultimately doing it for the Reapers benefit.

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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by leafs43 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:46 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
leafs43 wrote:on Shepard and have some results where the reapers were not.


Can someone please explain to me how TIM's indoctrination powers far exceed those of the reapers?

What TIM did can not even be called Indoctrination since it ahd nothing to do with altering Shepards mind, he merely controlled Shepard's body. It was closer to biotic fine manipulation.

Which is why largely why it is considered part of the Indoctrination vision / dream / whatever you want yo call it. It is taking place in Shepards mind.

A common interpretation is that TIM and Anderson represent the Indoctrinated and non Indoctrinated part of Shepard's mind fighting for control and what we see is an attempt to outright break Shepard as opposed to tricking him into Indoctrination.

Also even from a litteral perspective it is not TIM trying to control Shepard but the Reapers through TIM. This is fimrly established by the Catalyst saying, "but he could not have taken control cause we allready controlled him." From a litteral perspective no matter what TIM does (minus shooting himself), no matter what he says, he is ultimately doing it for the Reapers benefit.


I was speaking more from a literal prespective.


But TIM did make Shepard pull the trigger on Anderson, which is much mental as well as physical.

Even if it's a rudimentary form of indoctrination, it's still begs the question of why couldn't the reapers have pulled off the same feat?

It's not as if Shepard had much if any close contact with TIM before that anyways. So in order for such a hasty indoctrination control technique...TIM would have to be stronger than the reapers, which in general aspect makes no sense at all.

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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:50 pm

leafs43 wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
leafs43 wrote:on Shepard and have some results where the reapers were not.


Can someone please explain to me how TIM's indoctrination powers far exceed those of the reapers?

What TIM did can not even be called Indoctrination since it ahd nothing to do with altering Shepards mind, he merely controlled Shepard's body. It was closer to biotic fine manipulation.

Which is why largely why it is considered part of the Indoctrination vision / dream / whatever you want yo call it. It is taking place in Shepards mind.

A common interpretation is that TIM and Anderson represent the Indoctrinated and non Indoctrinated part of Shepard's mind fighting for control and what we see is an attempt to outright break Shepard as opposed to tricking him into Indoctrination.

Also even from a litteral perspective it is not TIM trying to control Shepard but the Reapers through TIM. This is fimrly established by the Catalyst saying, "but he could not have taken control cause we allready controlled him." From a litteral perspective no matter what TIM does (minus shooting himself), no matter what he says, he is ultimately doing it for the Reapers benefit.


I was speaking more from a literal prespective.


But TIM did make Shepard pull the trigger on Anderson, which is much mental as well as physical.

Even if it's a rudimentary form of indoctrination, it's still begs the question of why couldn't the reapers have pulled off the same feat?

It's not as if Shepard had much if any close contact with TIM before that anyways. So in order for such a hasty indoctrination control technique...TIM would have to be stronger than the reapers, which in general aspect makes no sense at all.

Shepard was in full mental control the entire time during the sequence as shown by the fact that every word he speaks is his own. It is his body which is acting against his will, making the control a physical one and not a mental one, thus not Indoctrination but closer to Biotics.

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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by leafs43 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:57 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
leafs43 wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
leafs43 wrote:on Shepard and have some results where the reapers were not.


Can someone please explain to me how TIM's indoctrination powers far exceed those of the reapers?

What TIM did can not even be called Indoctrination since it ahd nothing to do with altering Shepards mind, he merely controlled Shepard's body. It was closer to biotic fine manipulation.

Which is why largely why it is considered part of the Indoctrination vision / dream / whatever you want yo call it. It is taking place in Shepards mind.

A common interpretation is that TIM and Anderson represent the Indoctrinated and non Indoctrinated part of Shepard's mind fighting for control and what we see is an attempt to outright break Shepard as opposed to tricking him into Indoctrination.

Also even from a litteral perspective it is not TIM trying to control Shepard but the Reapers through TIM. This is fimrly established by the Catalyst saying, "but he could not have taken control cause we allready controlled him." From a litteral perspective no matter what TIM does (minus shooting himself), no matter what he says, he is ultimately doing it for the Reapers benefit.


I was speaking more from a literal prespective.


But TIM did make Shepard pull the trigger on Anderson, which is much mental as well as physical.

Even if it's a rudimentary form of indoctrination, it's still begs the question of why couldn't the reapers have pulled off the same feat?

It's not as if Shepard had much if any close contact with TIM before that anyways. So in order for such a hasty indoctrination control technique...TIM would have to be stronger than the reapers, which in general aspect makes no sense at all.

Shepard was in full mental control the entire time during the sequence as shown by the fact that every word he speaks is his own. It is his body which is acting against his will, making the control a physical one and not a mental one, thus not Indoctrination but closer to Biotics.


We just have a different interpretation of that particular scene.

You seem to take it as TIM physically pulling the trigger for Shepard.

I reject this notion.

I take the scene as TIM took control of Shepard's mind, only partially in the lower brain functions that control motor skills which forced Shepard to pull the trigger. Speech and thought are higher brain functions, which TIM didn't have access to because it was a hasty attempt or having to control 2 people (as Anderson was also controlled), thus allowing the conversation. I accept this idea because of the cerberus troops throughout the game have been thoroughly indoctrinated by TIM and not physically pushed by a more complex version of biotics.

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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by ElSuperGecko on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:13 pm

Yeah, TIM's powers were... interesting... to say the least. Possibly gives us an idea at what the Final Hours app may have been hinting at when it talked about the player "losing control of Shepard".

Odd stuff. It's clearly not mind control or mental manipulation though, as Anderson and Shepard never stop arguing with TIM, or trying to talk him down. Look at Anderson when he turns from the console, he looks as though he's being forced to move against his will.

Is TIM's control based on his Reaper research? Probably. But it doesn't appear to have much in common with indoctrination...

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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by Eryri on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:17 pm

Would it be more like enthrallment? The Leviathans seemed to directly guide their thralls' movements without affecting their conscious minds. Maybe TIM was using a half-assed version of that?

I've not played Leviathan or seen much on Youtube in case I decided to buy it some day.
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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by leafs43 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:21 pm

Eryri wrote:Would it be more like enthrallment? The Leviathans seemed to directly guide their thralls' movements without affecting their conscious minds. Maybe TIM was using a half-assed version of that?

I've not played Leviathan or seen much on Youtube in case I decided to buy it some day.


From what I have read, what the leviathans use is just a primitive, lower form version of indoctrination. It was probably a paradigm on which the reapers perfected, and calling it indoctrination. And I assume TIM is using basically just that.

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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by ElSuperGecko on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:22 pm

Levithan's enthrallment seemed like a more "traditional" form of mind control. Everyone talking emotionlessly in monologue etc.

I can't explain what TIM does, only that it doesn't fit with indoctrination, or anything we've seen elsewhere in-game really. Shepard and Anderson fully self aware, but their bodies not under their own control.

It's an oddity.


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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by leafs43 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:27 pm

ElSuperGecko wrote:Levithan's enthrallment seemed like a more "traditional" form of mind control. Everyone talking emotionlessly in monologue etc.

I can't explain what TIM does, only that it doesn't fit with indoctrination, or anything we've seen elsewhere in-game really. Shepard and Anderson fully self aware, but their bodies not under their own control.

It's an oddity.



I always attributed TIM's abilities to what he uses on cerberus soldiers. Of course cerberus soldiers would have their entire minds taken over because they went under the effects in a lab. And TIM's "portable" abilities come from his newly installed reaper implants.

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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by RavenEyry on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:29 pm

TIM really doesn't look like he just got implants. It's more like that husk skin was just below his human skin the whole time.
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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by leafs43 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:34 pm

RavenEyry wrote:TIM really doesn't look like he just got implants. It's more like that husk skin was just below his human skin the whole time.


I think that goes without saying. :p

TIM and his insanity is part of the reason why control is loathed.

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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by Steelcan on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:19 am

leafs43 wrote:
RavenEyry wrote:TIM really doesn't look like he just got implants. It's more like that husk skin was just below his human skin the whole time.


I think that goes without saying. :p

TIM and his insanity is part of the reason why control is loathed.
. Ah yes "insanity" Ah, yes...
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Re: Never understood why TIM was allowed to attempt indoctrination...

Post by Terramine on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:29 am

As far as I figured... TIM, Anderson, Shepard and the Catalyst were "physical" representations in the mind. They aren't actually physical, but the indoctrination attempt has created this place in Shepard's mind where it's like being lucid within a dream, for all intents and purposes it's "physical" because to Shepard it feels perfectly real in every way just as a Lucid Dream feels when you are fully lucid.

Basically Anderson and TIM are subconscious representations of Control and Destroy, and Shepard and the Catalyst are actual conscious entities. Shepard is himself/herself, while the Catalyst is really the manifestation of all reapers in a single entity within Shepard's subconscious.

What you are seeing is not the control of actual physical people, but rather you are seeing the control over things that are mental. So technically it's visual representation of the Reapers controlling Shepard's mind. This answers the questions, basically TIM isn't actually exerting physical control... it's actually the Reapers exerting mental control. This is why it's a battle of the minds, from a literal perspective there is no battle... not a boss battle, nor a battle of the minds. Which is why something is up if Bioware says there is a battle of minds.

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