The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

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The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Rifneno on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:35 am

The Thorian.



The original design of the human Proto-Reaper, which was a demonic embryo rather than giant baby terminator.



Look at the way they're both hung (giggity). It's the same setup. Now let's consider...

1. It can indoctrinate. In fact, its indoctrination is powerful enough to disrupt the (other) Reapers'.
2. It can produce husk-like creatures. Hell, the thing's like a Mass Effect broodmother.
3. It talks like a Reaper, treating regular sapient races such as humans as little more than bacteria.
4. It can live apparently indefinitely. It's been around long enough to observe its fill of Protheans.
5. It has the Reaper's signature tentacles.
6. It's "utterly unique", which is to say the least a bit unusual for a natural life form.
7. It's even fought the same as the Proto-Reaper, as you defeat it by knocking it down the seemingly bottomless pit it's hung over.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:52 am

But why would the Reapers attempt to destroy one of their own through Saren?
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Rifneno on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:55 am

Selim Bradley wrote:But why would the Reapers attempt to destroy one of their own through Saren?

I haven't the faintest idea. But from where I'm standing it certainly seems like a proto-Reaper.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Norlond on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:57 am

For comparison with adjutans and keepers


Is ExoGeni 100% sure that the Thorian is just a "plant"?

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Baranus33 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:16 am

Selim Bradley wrote:But why would the Reapers attempt to destroy one of their own through Saren?

its a failed experiment and it also is evidence left behind that Reapers exisit
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by BleedingUranium on Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:22 am

This does seem very likely! Nice one, Rif Magic!
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Ghost Of Kesak11 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:55 am

Intresting idea, Rif. Very likely.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Rifneno on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:38 am

Norlond wrote:For comparison with adjutans and keepers

*snip images*

Is ExoGeni 100% sure that the Thorian is just a "plant"?

There's no way that thing is just a plant. Even if we accept that a plant can become sentient like an animal can, look at that picture. It very clearly has blood vessels.

I think I'm missing something here. The similarity to Adjutants is clear, but I don't see anything with the keepers. Explain please?

BleedingUranium wrote:This does seem very likely! Nice one, Rif Magic!

Kesak11 wrote:Intresting idea, Rif. Very likely.

Thanks guys. Smile

I thought a bit more about it, because the shape of it bugged me. I know that shape looks familiar. Now I get it. It's a grub.



Tell me those don't bear at least a bit of similarity to our fungal friend up there. The Thorian is a big fat grub. Those particular grubs I just showed are of the Asian palm weevil, a beetle. While we begin as embryos, those beetles begin as grubs. So this is likely a failed/abandoned Reaper of a insectoid race.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by CSSteele on Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:08 am

Either that, or the Thorian is a Leviathan baby...
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Rifneno on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:24 am

CSSteele wrote:Either that, or the Thorian is a Leviathan baby...

I'm definitely going with Proto-Reaper. Why would a Leviathan help the Reapers? Remember, unless it gave the cipher to Saren, Sovereign couldn't have figured out where the Conduit was, and the Reapers would remain trapped in dark space. On a similar note, why would a Leviathan have been spared during the Prothean cycle? The Thorian was around during the Prothean cycle, so why did it survive the harvest? Unlike the Leviathans, it wasn't exactly being inconspicuous there. The Reapers must have spared this thing. Why would they unless it was one of their own?

Hmm. Actually, I wonder... Maybe it didn't have the cipher because it observed the Protheans for millenniums as we thought... maybe it has the cipher because it is Prothean. Protheans are insectoid. This thing could be the failed Prothean Reaper. That would be an interesting twist.

Anyway, there's several other issues with it being Leviathan as well. Leviathans aren't able to make husk-like creatures. At least not on their own like the Thorian can. Their thralling ability is also different. Leviathan thralls went back to being their normal selves (unless it hemorrhaged their brains to permanently silence them) when they were no longer around a Leviathan orb. Even with the Thorian dead, the colonists of Feros weren't free of its indoctrination type effect. That asari even implied that they can sense each other mentally, the same sort of "shared mental functions" that some indoctrination victims get (like the Cerberus workers who both remembered the same woman as their wives). Granted, the Thorian's indoctrination isn't exactly like what we know of the Reapers' either, but it's closer to the Reaper version than the Leviathan version. Lastly, while I realize this is an utterly alien life form, it seems odd that a creature would start out as a land-based fungal creature and then turn into a deep sea crustacean or cephalopod. They're about as far apart in appearance, function, and environment as known organic life forms can get.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Master Blaster on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:25 am

Hmmmm I like this idea. Nice Job Rif.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Andromidius on Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:54 am

Rifneno wrote:
Hmm. Actually, I wonder... Maybe it didn't have the cipher because it observed the Protheans for millenniums as we thought... maybe it has the cipher because it is Prothean. Protheans are insectoid. This thing could be the failed Prothean Reaper. That would be an interesting twist.

That actually make sense for another reason.

Protheans have touch-based telepathy (among other forms of psychic abilities). Saren may have used Shilia not only as 'payment' for the Prothean Cypher, but also to interact directly with the Thorian because he didn't trust it to not overpower him or take any of his memories (so a buffer, essentially).

Also it seems to have four 'eyes', arranged in a similar pattern to Protheans.

Or its Inusannon. Mass Effect wiki has no picture for them despite the fact Javik confirms those statues on Ilos were them and not Prothean. They had the same trendril-faces and tentical arm/fingers.

The Reapers may have ignored it as 'irrelivent', once it was deemed a failure. Saren seeked to destroy it to hide its secrets.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:08 am

I don't exactly think 'proto-Reaper' at this rate, but really close.

Experimentation with organic evolution and telepathic potential, yes.

A lot of signs that while the current cycle is 'where it all ends', the Prothian cycle is 'where it all begins'. I think the keys to understanding the original Mass Effect trilogy lies in what happened during that period.

(In fact, that is stated by Wiki: "The name "Prothean" may derive from the Greek words 'protero', meaning "earlier" or "former"; 'proto', meaning "primary" or "first"; and 'protean', referring to that which is changeable or adaptable. Another possibility is that the name derives from the words 'proto' or 'protero' and 'theos', meaning "God". Depending on how the words 'proto' or its derivative 'protero' are interpreted, the word "Prothean" could mean "someone who existed before Gods" or "the first or former God". The Protheans also bear a strong resemblance to the mythological Titan Prometheus who gave fire to mortals, which enabled them to learn the arts of civilization (indeed, the Protheans certainly seem to serve that role in the mythology of the hanar, who refer to them as the "Enkindlers").")

The Thorian being addressed in a small way in the Levithan DLC also indicates to me that Bioware is not writing them off just yet. I personally believe that the Reapers utilize organic sapient species as sources for much of their power. Including telepathic and calculative power. Thus they see pure synthetics as only tools and annoyances at best, but pure organics as but simple unenlightened gnats.

They believe they've transcended both types of beings, yet we see that they need organic power to use the powers they have, and synthetic power in order to protect their plan (tech, code, etc).

Like always, they're goddamn parasites of the galaxy.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:14 am

Andromidius wrote:
Rifneno wrote:
Hmm. Actually, I wonder... Maybe it didn't have the cipher because it observed the Protheans for millenniums as we thought... maybe it has the cipher because it is Prothean. Protheans are insectoid. This thing could be the failed Prothean Reaper. That would be an interesting twist.

That actually make sense for another reason.

Protheans have touch-based telepathy (among other forms of psychic abilities). Saren may have used Shilia not only as 'payment' for the Prothean Cypher, but also to interact directly with the Thorian because he didn't trust it to not overpower him or take any of his memories (so a buffer, essentially).

Also it seems to have four 'eyes', arranged in a similar pattern to Protheans.

Or its Inusannon. Mass Effect wiki has no picture for them despite the fact Javik confirms those statues on Ilos were them and not Prothean. They had the same trendril-faces and tentical arm/fingers.

The Reapers may have ignored it as 'irrelivent', once it was deemed a failure. Saren seeked to destroy it to hide its secrets.

The Reapers probably needed a 'Vengeance' to complete the process ;)

Like they will need a 'Shepard' to complete this current cycle successfully.

It's no use having some ultra Reaper intelligence if it only indoctrinates/enthralls mindlessly. It needs a guiding force/consciousness to have it join the Reapers and their purpose.

IMO

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by CSSteele on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:24 am

I was just throwing it out there as something to consider, not because I honestly believed it.

The Thorian has always facinated me, and made me think. I mean pre-Leviathan I would've suggested it was the organic precursor to the Reapers. It uses spores for mind control and can huskify things, while the Reapers use nanides for mind control and can huskify things. Also, as was pointed out in the pictures, Rif, they have funky tentacles and vaguely resemble Reapears/human proto-reaper.

Post Levi actually placing them is harder, but I think the idea is sound.

Random tangent, ME2 derilect Reaper mission, if you look -really closely- at the core you're sent to destroy, it looks like a small cuttle-fish with a singular eye similar to the three eyes on the human terminator, (proto-reaper), which if it is, it is really, really small in comparison. Does that mean the human Reaper would've been the largest made?
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Rifneno on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:55 pm

Master Blaster wrote:Hmmmm I like this idea. Nice Job Rif.

Thanks. :)

Andromidius wrote:
That actually make sense for another reason.

Protheans have touch-based telepathy (among other forms of psychic abilities). Saren may have used Shilia not only as 'payment' for the Prothean Cypher, but also to interact directly with the Thorian because he didn't trust it to not overpower him or take any of his memories (so a buffer, essentially).

Also it seems to have four 'eyes', arranged in a similar pattern to Protheans.

Or its Inusannon. Mass Effect wiki has no picture for them despite the fact Javik confirms those statues on Ilos were them and not Prothean. They had the same trendril-faces and tentical arm/fingers.

The Reapers may have ignored it as 'irrelivent', once it was deemed a failure. Saren seeked to destroy it to hide its secrets.

They didn't know what role Protheans would play at that point, and I'm 99% positive that Javik's "I picked up a quarter in the engine room and got a flashback of Miranda swallowing Shepard's pistol" ability was an asspull to explain him being fluent in English (as Protheans' tongue is unknown, it wouldn't be built into universal translators that are used for other aliens). Shilia was just used because she was an expendable asari and only asari can mindsex the cipher into or out of someone. Which makes one wonder why Liara doesn't have the cipher, but I digress...

The Reapers probably didn't want to destroy one of their own as long as it didn't pose a threat to them. They left the derelict one at Mnemosyne there for a whopping 740 cycles. But the Thorian had to die, because as long as it lived it was possible for Shepard to obtain the cipher and follow Saren's trail.

SwobyJ wrote:I don't exactly think 'proto-Reaper' at this rate, but really close.

Experimentation with organic evolution and telepathic potential, yes.

A lot of signs that while the current cycle is 'where it all ends', the Prothian cycle is 'where it all begins'. I think the keys to understanding the original Mass Effect trilogy lies in what happened during that period.

(In fact, that is stated by Wiki: "The name "Prothean" may derive from the Greek words 'protero', meaning "earlier" or "former"; 'proto', meaning "primary" or "first"; and 'protean', referring to that which is changeable or adaptable. Another possibility is that the name derives from the words 'proto' or 'protero' and 'theos', meaning "God". Depending on how the words 'proto' or its derivative 'protero' are interpreted, the word "Prothean" could mean "someone who existed before Gods" or "the first or former God". The Protheans also bear a strong resemblance to the mythological Titan Prometheus who gave fire to mortals, which enabled them to learn the arts of civilization (indeed, the Protheans certainly seem to serve that role in the mythology of the hanar, who refer to them as the "Enkindlers").")

The Thorian being addressed in a small way in the Levithan DLC also indicates to me that Bioware is not writing them off just yet. I personally believe that the Reapers utilize organic sapient species as sources for much of their power. Including telepathic and calculative power. Thus they see pure synthetics as only tools and annoyances at best, but pure organics as but simple unenlightened gnats.

They believe they've transcended both types of beings, yet we see that they need organic power to use the powers they have, and synthetic power in order to protect their plan (tech, code, etc).

Like always, they're goddamn parasites of the galaxy.

Whoever wrote that bit for the wikia and left out Proteus the shapeshifter god is made of fail. Anyway, when have the Reapers ever experimented with organic life to make it more powerful without also taking away its free will? The Thorian isn't a mindless pawn of theirs, therefor it's not simply an experiment. IMO anyway.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Raistlin Majere on Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:12 pm

It is a good idea futher supported by the fact that the planet it is on was not leveled by the Reapers.

It is hammered into our head that the Reapers rarely miss much, if anythin of a past species when exterminating them and yet the massive spires Zhu's Hope is build on is Prothean Ruins.

Did the Reapers simply miss this or went through the ruins determining there was no need to destroy them...or was it the Thorian which was spared and thus the ruins it lived in as well?

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:05 pm

There are so many parallels between Reapers and certain organics...

At some point in the game, Traynor is listing all the capabilities of the Rachni, and it struck me that she might as well have been talking about the Reapers.

The ability to take control of victims, to speak through another's body, using some organic form of quantum entanglement communication, etcetera.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by RavenEyry on Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:16 pm

Maybe 'organic QECs' are a common evolutionary step, for non humanoids?
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by 401 Kill on Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:17 pm

Oooh nice, I have never thought of this before but it makes sense. There are only three examples of Organics being able to "indoctrinate". The Leviathans, who created the Reapers then, can live extremely long, and we're hunted by the Reapers. Then the Thorian, who could have been a failed attempt of a Reaper. We have been thinking it might be a way to counter indoctrination if you are connected to others, but it really is the same thing. I forget his name, but the "leader" of the Feros colony could break away from being Indoctrinated only to kill himself.

Ann Bryson and Shialla (I messed up the spelling didn't I?) both say "I swear I'm still indoctrinated."

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Eryri on Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:44 pm

I like this idea. Maybe the Thorian is a botched attempt to grow a reaper, which they felt disinclined to destroy as it was still one of them, (much like the Daleks and their asylum in a recent Dr Who).

RavenEyry wrote:Maybe 'organic QECs' are a common evolutionary step, for non humanoids?

Not just non-humanoids, the Asari's mind-meld seems quite similar. And people have speculated that Shepard's preternatural charisma and ability to inspire loyalty represets the emergence of this sort of ability in humans.
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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:04 pm

401 Kill wrote:Oooh nice, I have never thought of this before but it makes sense. There are only three examples of Organics being able to "indoctrinate". The Leviathans, who created the Reapers then, can live extremely long, and we're hunted by the Reapers. Then the Thorian, who could have been a failed attempt of a Reaper. We have been thinking it might be a way to counter indoctrination if you are connected to others, but it really is the same thing. I forget his name, but the "leader" of the Feros colony could break away from being Indoctrinated only to kill himself.

Ann Bryson and Shialla (I messed up the spelling didn't I?) both say "I swear I'm still indoctrinated."

Don't forget the Rachni.

Ability to control organics, speak through them (even when dead), use organic form of QEC...

What's really cool is that someone (I forgot who - was it Garrus?) tells Shepard (after the Rachni mission):

"Siding with the giant spiders again, eh Shepard?"

Might as well be talking about the Reapers. Really cool ending foreshadowing.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by DSharrah on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:28 pm

Can't remember which developer diary it was...but I remember watching one where they talked about geting some of the design inspiration for the Reaper's from leaf-cutters...another obvious tie into the insectoid nature that is being discussed here.

Not sure that I see the connection b/w the keepers and the adjutants...the way they were described and what we learn from Javik, I always seem to jump to the Zha'til as a connection to the keepers.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:48 pm

Rifneno wrote:The Thorian isn't a mindless pawn of theirs, therefor it's not simply an experiment. IMO anyway.

Sorry, what I mean is that 'all of evolution is their experiment'.

Thorian can be part of Reaper, yes, but the larger idea is that all the Cycles are an experiment. And failures are discarded in a ditch, Nazi style.

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Re: The Thorian is an old, abandoned Proto-Reaper.

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:50 pm

401 Kill wrote:Oooh nice, I have never thought of this before but it makes sense. There are only three examples of Organics being able to "indoctrinate". The Leviathans, who created the Reapers then, can live extremely long, and we're hunted by the Reapers. Then the Thorian, who could have been a failed attempt of a Reaper. We have been thinking it might be a way to counter indoctrination if you are connected to others, but it really is the same thing. I forget his name, but the "leader" of the Feros colony could break away from being Indoctrinated only to kill himself.

Ann Bryson and Shialla (I messed up the spelling didn't I?) both say "I swear I'm still indoctrinated."

And...

Here ya go...





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