Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

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Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by argentoid on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:46 pm

Ok, ladies and gentlemen, this is my first post. Bear with me, because I've been thinking the whole thing through and this is the only logical explanation to the whole weird encounter with the Catalyst that I can come up with.

What I'll cite and I'll try to explain:


Why the Big Bad looks like a child and uses Shep's voice.

Why there's three chambers.

Very small analysis of every choice. And what happens afterwards to Shepard.

The Leviathan's connection with the Catalyst.




Here it goes (please don't hit me):

When Shepard gets to the very end of the game, Hackett tries to contact him, but Shep passes out. Then, as we all know, we see some kind of "space elevator" that takes him to where the Catalyst is. This looks very "magical" and "unreal", hell, it even smells like Indoctration to me... But, no. So, at this very moment, I think Shepard is "hallucinating" gaining access to the Catalyst's programming/mind, in a very similar way that happened with the Leviathan encounter (not Indoctrination, by the way). Why nobody is trying to contact him anymore? Hackett was just trying to, but then ZOMG, nobody tries anymore. I'll get to this later.

Now, read this: Remember the confrontation with the Leviathan? Well, that giant thing, as I said, gained access to Shepard's mind. The Leviathans used familiar images to speak with him ("Your memories give voice to our words")... just like the Catalyst does at very end:

He looks like the kid we see on Earth (OH REALLY?).

He uses Shepard male and female voice to communicate.

AND he was also created in the image of the Leviathans because... well... the Leviathans created him, and the StarChild was also able to use thralls, presumably by mind controlling them).

The Catalyst, therefore, is using the same comunication methods as his creators (the Leviathans) did.


So, I think Shepard's consciouness is actually being merged with the Catalyst's AI programming. The Catalyst's uses familiar images that allow Shepard to comprehend what he is seeing. The Catalyst himself, Earth, the Crucible, the colors of and the presence of the Control/Destroy chamber... everything is a representation of what is at stake, (plus Shepard seems to be in space at that very moment, so I've always wondered how he was able to breathe air, because: THERE'S NO AIR IN SPACE... or maybe because there's still an atmosphere around).
Getting back to the whole "programming" thing, we actually see something like this at the Geth mission where we gain access to the Geth's core programming. But this time, we can't understand what we are seeing, except from some surreal white walls and strange orange boxes floating around.)



Now, the choices:

The Crucible comes with variables. Therefore, it changed the Catalyst's programming/variables, now, up to three. Those are: Destroy, Control and Synthesis.

Destroy: Shepard destroys the Catalyst's core programming, leaving the Reapers useless. Also, this is the only ending where Shepard wakes up. That's because he wakes AFTER the whole mind-melding encounter with the Catalyst. (He can still die in this ending if your EMS is low, but maybe that's because of the Crucible's state and what it targets).

Control: The Catalyst AI is replaced by Shepard's consciouness. Shepard dies, or (due to this "mind exchange"), he's probably left in a comatose state (just like Ann Bryson in the Leviathan DLC, after spending too much time communicating with the Leviathans).

Synthesis: The Catalyst gains access to Shepard's DNA and synthetic components, and allows them to be merged with the Crucible's energy, then spreading to the whole galaxy. Shepard also dies, likely desintegrated to the subatomic level in the "real" world... or maybe he's left in a comatose state too. (This was the hardest one to figure out, its just way too much Space Magic to understand.)


PS: Shepard was on his knees when he confronted the Leviathan. Later, when he confronts the Catalyst, Shepard wakes up with his knees and hands on the ground in a VERY similar way. That also struck me as odd.


So, all in all, THE ENDINGS HAPPEN, unlike IT. But the whole Catalyst happens inside the Catalyst's programming, because he has the same abilities to communicate as the Leviathans. What we see, as I said before, are familiar images, ala "Rannoch: Geth Fighter Squadrons" (the Geth conciousness) mission and the Leviathan confrontation, this last one being VERY similar to the ending confrontation with StarChild itself. Thefore, the Catalyst uses Shepard memories to give voice to his words.

(I'm might be wrong. Still, this was done with my best attempt.)

EDIT: Wrote some more stuff, in an attempt to make it more clear.


Hope you had nice time reading it.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by magnetite on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:03 am

I don't think you can logically explain the ending without IT, but that's just me. Even the little stuff not related to indoctrination, such as how Shepard gets up with a severed artery (or a huge pool of his own blood, camers shows this clearly) after being hit by Harbinger. He then limps for 10 minutes, has a chat with TIM for 10 minutes, and another one with Starbinger for 10 minutes all at the same time.

In the real world, given all the information that is there, that is just not possible, unless you look at the ending from a non-literal viewpoint. Bioware wouldn't be that silly to leave that many plot holes and such that their writers and their beta testers (not just game, but the story editors and such) clearly missed these facts, given that 98% of the time, the rest of the game is very coherent. Unless, it was intentional.
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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by argentoid on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:23 am

magnetite wrote:I don't think you can logically explain the ending without IT, but that's just me. Even the little stuff not related to indoctrination, such as how Shepard gets up with a severed artery (or a huge pool of his own blood, camers shows this clearly) after being hit by Harbinger. He then limps for 10 minutes, has a chat with TIM for 10 minutes, and another one with Starbinger for 10 minutes all at the same time.

In the real world, given all the information that is there, that is just not possible, unless you look at the ending from a non-literal viewpoint. Bioware wouldn't be that silly to leave that many plot holes and such that their writers and their beta testers (not just game, but the story editors and such) clearly missed these facts, given that 98% of the time, the rest of the game is very coherent. Unless, it was intentional.

IT is not canon. The Extended Cut and Leviathan has proven that there is no such thing. I posted this because it might be a logical way to interpretate the ending.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Rifneno on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:50 am

argentoid wrote:
magnetite wrote:I don't think you can logically explain the ending without IT, but that's just me. Even the little stuff not related to indoctrination, such as how Shepard gets up with a severed artery (or a huge pool of his own blood, camers shows this clearly) after being hit by Harbinger. He then limps for 10 minutes, has a chat with TIM for 10 minutes, and another one with Starbinger for 10 minutes all at the same time.

In the real world, given all the information that is there, that is just not possible, unless you look at the ending from a non-literal viewpoint. Bioware wouldn't be that silly to leave that many plot holes and such that their writers and their beta testers (not just game, but the story editors and such) clearly missed these facts, given that 98% of the time, the rest of the game is very coherent. Unless, it was intentional.

IT is not canon. The Extended Cut and Leviathan has proven that there is no such thing. I posted this because it might be a logical way to interpretate the ending.

You're on the wrong forum. Please take your handwaving of everything from the indoctrination eyes to the indoctrination dreams somewhere else.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Master Blaster on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:52 am

Hey be nice to him. I asked him to come here, and he did. He knows what IT is about, and he is giving his opinion he is not causing no problems, so behave.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Rifneno on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:55 am

Master Blaster wrote:Hey be nice to him. I asked him to come here, and he did. He knows what IT is about, and he is giving his opinion he is not causing no problems, so behave.

Quit your bitching, and definitely give up the fantasy of telling me to "behave." What I said was exactly as polite as the "Leviathan and EC disproved IT" drivel that we've dealt with a hundred times already.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Fur28 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:06 am

argentoid wrote:
magnetite wrote:I don't think you can logically explain the ending without IT, but that's just me. Even the little stuff not related to indoctrination, such as how Shepard gets up with a severed artery (or a huge pool of his own blood, camers shows this clearly) after being hit by Harbinger. He then limps for 10 minutes, has a chat with TIM for 10 minutes, and another one with Starbinger for 10 minutes all at the same time.

In the real world, given all the information that is there, that is just not possible, unless you look at the ending from a non-literal viewpoint. Bioware wouldn't be that silly to leave that many plot holes and such that their writers and their beta testers (not just game, but the story editors and such) clearly missed these facts, given that 98% of the time, the rest of the game is very coherent. Unless, it was intentional.

IT is not canon. The Extended Cut and Leviathan has proven that there is no such thing. I posted this because it might be a logical way to interpretate the ending.
You know Leviathan just gave more clues to IT, no?
It hasn´t been proven, but it also haven´t been disproven

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:10 am

Rifneno wrote:
Master Blaster wrote:Hey be nice to him. I asked him to come here, and he did. He knows what IT is about, and he is giving his opinion he is not causing no problems, so behave.

Quit your bitching, and definitely give up the fantasy of telling me to "behave." What I said was exactly as polite as the "Leviathan and EC disproved IT" drivel that we've dealt with a hundred times already.
It's true, MB. Rif even said please, which almost never happens. Grin

As for this thread, I have no problem with this person's interpretation. All interpretations are valid to me. Whatever lets someone enjoy the game.
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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by stargate1990 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:25 am

argentoid wrote:
magnetite wrote:I don't think you can logically explain the ending without IT, but that's just me. Even the little stuff not related to indoctrination, such as how Shepard gets up with a severed artery (or a huge pool of his own blood, camers shows this clearly) after being hit by Harbinger. He then limps for 10 minutes, has a chat with TIM for 10 minutes, and another one with Starbinger for 10 minutes all at the same time.

In the real world, given all the information that is there, that is just not possible, unless you look at the ending from a non-literal viewpoint. Bioware wouldn't be that silly to leave that many plot holes and such that their writers and their beta testers (not just game, but the story editors and such) clearly missed these facts, given that 98% of the time, the rest of the game is very coherent. Unless, it was intentional.

IT is not canon. The Extended Cut and Leviathan has proven that there is no such thing. I posted this because it might be a logical way to interpretate the ending.

Really? were we playing the same game? if anything both DLC's have some pro IT evidence such as

Leviathan:
The first thing i noticed after actually seeing the Leviathan was it's ability to make you have full blown hallucinations while using it's far less advanced(compared to the actual reapers ie Harbinger) Indoctrination so it is not far fetched at all to assume harbinger has perfected this technique

Extended Cut:
well there is quite a few here but i would like to point out 1 particular thing, it baffles Literist's and most scream "Badds Writingzzzzzzz!" The squad mates Evac scene while harbinger does nothing!

in Higher Ems beam runs, Harbinger flips the tank and shepard runs towards and helps the squad and retreats back behind the tank and then calls evac, then the goodbye speach all while Harbinger dosen't shoot at Shepard once! In my opinion this is a clear sign of harbingers Desire of wanting to indoctrinate Shepard but and being patient for shepard to get closer.

Here for a lot more interesting tid bits



it is 1 in the morning and i have some stuff to do anyway it is my excuse for bad spelling and grammer lol


Last edited by stargate1990 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:59 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : a couple words from my head to the keyboard did not quite make it lol so fixed it)
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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by magnetite on Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:44 am

I was not going to originally reply to his post after mine, but I thought I'd wait for others.
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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Andromidius on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:35 am

argentoid wrote:The Extended Cut and Leviathan has proven that there is no such thing. I posted this because it might be a logical way to interpretate the ending.

Wrong and impossible.

Next thread.
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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by dorktainian on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:04 am

something utterly illogical popped into my mind regarding the 'ending'.
From a literalists point of view.....

When shep is first 'hit' by harbingers beam, he goes into a dream state almost. This could be harbingers control yes?

Then when he actually arrives at the citadel (assuming literal) he wakes up with a jolt when Anderson calls his name. What if this part - right up until shepard passes out again actually happens literally? you see dead bodies all over the place. Maybe time for some reason has skipped for shepard? The reapers are now 'reaping' and have collected the bodies for processing. For this section of the ending shepard sees 'what is'.

Everything from his arrival at 'the citadel' to him passing out could happen.

Then after his confrontation with TIM, when he passes out Harbinger can take control of shepard again for the trip to star-retard and the utterly bonkers and stupid logic by-pass.





then again.....nah

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Andromidius on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:26 am

dork wrote:
then again.....nah

Trying to make sense of those scenes is an exercise in futility. The only scenerio I came up with merely to explain why the Catalyst looks like the child Shepard saw was so convoluted that its next to impossible - and that still assumes some level of mind-reading and manipulation going on. There's zero evidence to suggest there's no manipulation at all going on.

The mere fact that he doesn't even order the Reapers to cease fire temporarily as an act of good faith suggests its bullshit.
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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Restrider on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:24 pm

As I said on the BSN:

The biggest concern with this interpretation is the assumed honesty of the Guardian, whose MO includes Reapers, entities known for their manipulative and deceptive nature.

Why on earth should the Guardian genuinely offer you the end of his existence and of its creation?
And assuming that it has no sense of self-preservation does not cut it, since its creation supposedly have such a drive.

Then this interpretation could be applied for Destroy and Control, but it still leaves Synthesis as some weird form of space LSD trip.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Rifneno on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:36 pm

Andromidius wrote:
dork wrote:
then again.....nah

Trying to make sense of those scenes is an exercise in futility. The only scenerio I came up with merely to explain why the Catalyst looks like the child Shepard saw was so convoluted that its next to impossible - and that still assumes some level of mind-reading and manipulation going on. There's zero evidence to suggest there's no manipulation at all going on.

The mere fact that he doesn't even order the Reapers to cease fire temporarily as an act of good faith suggests its bullshit.

But clearly it's all legit because EC shows epilogue slides of Control Shepard reusing Sovereign and Harbinger lines and talking about how he's going to be the guardian of the many (what was it that Starbrat was officially named? Oh, right. "Guardian.") to a montage of clips where Reaper ships float around stuff. And only Reaper ships. Huh. Oh well, I'm sure they just forgot to show all the other species and it's not because this ubermonster you created murdered every living thing before making this creepy Reaper speech and talking about how Shepard's dead and it's not Shepard.


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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Restrider on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:39 pm

Yep, the Reapers would have to repair the Citadel/Relays for the next cycle...

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Rifneno on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:48 pm

Huh. Is the "Seems Legit" pic taking forever to load for anyone else? I thought it was the host so I picked another one, and it's taking forever too. I don't want my last post to ever be interpreted without oceans of sarcasm.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Allynna on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:51 pm

Everything looks normal here. Maybe its something at your end.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Andromidius on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:51 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m7recXsEKo

That's the EC in a nutshell.

(Frankie Boyle, if anyone is wondering.)
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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Rifneno on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:51 pm

Allynna wrote:Everything looks normal here. Maybe its something at your end.

Ahh, good. Thanks.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the ending. (Not IT)

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:13 am

Andromidius wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m7recXsEKo

That's the EC in a nutshell.

(Frankie Boyle, if anyone is wondering.)

Must. Pick. Synthesis.

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