Do you believe in the reveal?

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Do you believe the IT reveal will come?

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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by DSharrah on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:53 am

I truly believe that a reveal is coming...but I would not guarantee that it comes with the next piece of DLC...as others have said a full on revel may not happen until ME4 (be damned with CP for saying we shouldn't call it that).

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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by Terramine on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:43 pm

BlueLogic wrote:*snip*
But at what quality is the evidence or reason? Only empirical evidence should be trusted in non-trivial things like jumping off of buildings, etc. The reason actually needs to be logical, otherwise it makes no sense.

So essentially "I've never heard anyone argue a position that they had no reason to believe in. More often it is their opponents who claim they have no reason." this is explained by the fact that the person holding the belief lacks GOOD ENOUGH evidence or reason to believe and their "opponents" acknowledge this. For example every homophobic argument has been refuted quite easily, there has never been a reason given or evidence supplied that was anywhere near challenging to refute. A wrongful reason, or a highly crappy/wrongful piece of evidence, is equal to no evidence or no reason.

"Faith is believing that if they jump off the building they will die. There is no way to prove that it will happen, but there are many reasons to believe it."

That is not faith, there is a shitload... no a trillion times a shitload, of evidences and reasons, that show not only will you die if the building is high enough... but you also know thanks to all the evidence, exactly how tall the building has to be for you to die, etc. Belief without evidence, is irrational, belief with evidence is not. All I am saying is that we "believe" a reveal is going to take place, because there is evidence, so it's NOT faith.

Edit: Definition of Faith: Firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
There are other definitions, but they are only relevant to trust in people, etc. in which case, that Faith is earned. This is not the same faith, as say faith in religion, or faith in any ideology or concept for that matter. The relevant faith in accordance with a reveal, and indoctrination, would be the firm belief without evidence... so since we have evidence and reason on our side, we do not hold Faith in it.

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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by BlueLogic on Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:04 am

IronicParticle wrote:...Belief without evidence, is irrational, belief with evidence is not. All I am saying is that we "believe" a reveal is going to take place, because there is evidence, so it's NOT faith.

Edit: Definition of Faith: Firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

The definition quoted is exactly right. You're also correct in that belief without evidence is irrational. However, the definition states faith requires a lack of proof. Evidence is not proof, therefore faith does not preclude evidence; faith is not irrational.
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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by Terramine on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:06 am

BlueLogic wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:...Belief without evidence, is irrational, belief with evidence is not. All I am saying is that we "believe" a reveal is going to take place, because there is evidence, so it's NOT faith.

Edit: Definition of Faith: Firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

The definition quoted is exactly right. You're also correct in that belief without evidence is irrational. However, the definition states faith requires a lack of proof. Evidence is not proof, therefore faith does not preclude evidence; faith is not irrational.
Definition of Proof: Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

Proof, is evidence compelling enough to show something as true. If god appeared before everyone tomorrow, he'd be proven to exist because we have the evidence of everyone seeing him. So holding a belief while lacking such confirming evidence, is Faith.

As I said unless you have evidence/reason GOOD ENOUGH for your belief, you have no reason to believe it, and therefore it's irrational. We have evidence that proves something at least like indoctrination is taking place, the evidence is strong enough that it verifies it even without a reveal.

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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by BlueLogic on Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:28 pm

IronicParticle wrote:As I said unless you have evidence/reason GOOD ENOUGH for your belief, you have no reason to believe it, and therefore it's irrational. We have evidence that proves something at least like indoctrination is taking place, the evidence is strong enough that it verifies it even without a reveal.

There are three cases:
1) There is no compelling reason or substantial evidence that X is true. Belief is irrational and requires faith beyond reason.
2) There is compelling reason or substantial evidence that X is true, but it is not yet proven to be true. Belief requires faith.
3) There is proof that X is true. Belief requires only understanding.

Belief that gravity draws matter together, or that squares have four sides falls into case 3. Belief that one can fly by flapping their arms falls into case 1. Belief that Bioware will confirm Indoctrination Theory falls into case 2.

IronicParticle wrote:...Proof, is evidence compelling enough to show something as true. If god appeared before everyone tomorrow, he'd be proven to exist because we have the evidence of everyone seeing him. So holding a belief while lacking such confirming evidence, is Faith.

Completely correct.
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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by Davik Kang on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:24 pm

DD, I vote no, but I hope the truth is yes, as a deserved reward for you guys and your dedication.

Honestly when I finished ME3 it was my favourite VG story ever, so I didn't really want it altered, but now after seeing the BSN community and the mindless nerd rage that cycles there everyday, I almost hope they do 'reveal' it just to shut those fools up. But then in a way they'd turn it round to say that that's what they'd always believed/wanted... irrationality is a powerful tool to wield, it must be said. The rational have no hope whatsoever against the irrational.

Bioware managed the BSN stuff so badly that I actually have a pretty negative attitude now towards the trilogy. I haven't even got to Virmire on my second playthrough yet, haven't played SP in maybe 2 months. So tbh, reveal or no, the whole ME thing has been pretty soured for me.

So yeah, reveal would be cool for you guys. Here's hoping.
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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by Terramine on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:52 am

BlueLogic wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:As I said unless you have evidence/reason GOOD ENOUGH for your belief, you have no reason to believe it, and therefore it's irrational. We have evidence that proves something at least like indoctrination is taking place, the evidence is strong enough that it verifies it even without a reveal.

There are three cases:
1) There is no compelling reason or substantial evidence that X is true. Belief is irrational and requires faith beyond reason.
2) There is compelling reason or substantial evidence that X is true, but it is not yet proven to be true. Belief requires faith.
3) There is proof that X is true. Belief requires only understanding.

Belief that gravity draws matter together, or that squares have four sides falls into case 3. Belief that one can fly by flapping their arms falls into case 1. Belief that Bioware will confirm Indoctrination Theory falls into case 2.

IronicParticle wrote:...Proof, is evidence compelling enough to show something as true. If god appeared before everyone tomorrow, he'd be proven to exist because we have the evidence of everyone seeing him. So holding a belief while lacking such confirming evidence, is Faith.

Completely correct.
Faith in indoctrination? No, it's proven. As for a reveal the fact that they planned it all, means that either they think it's already revealed by the proof... or they have yet to make the inevitable reveal. I guess the proof is a reveal unto itself, but there is also proof Bioware wouldn't work like that because they don't make games THAT bad..

I mean, you cannot acknowledge they did plan something as big as indoctrination, and then say they are incompetent enough to muck it up THAT bad.

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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by BlueLogic on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:00 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:*snip*
Faith in indoctrination? No, it's proven. As for a reveal the fact that they planned it all, means that either they think it's already revealed by the proof... or they have yet to make the inevitable reveal. I guess the proof is a reveal unto itself, but there is also proof Bioware wouldn't work like that because they don't make games THAT bad.


I'm a huge fan of Bioware, and I have a lot of faith in them. Looking at the ending through the lens of the Indoctrination Theory makes far more sense to me than a literal interpretation. The evidence supporting the IT, as well as Bioware's track record of success, incredible storytelling, subtlety, and trickery compel me to believe that this was their intention. However, it is impossible to prove their intentions unless and until they themselves make them clear. I think they should and will, but they may not. If not, then their intentions will remain a source of speculation.
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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by JamesStone on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:27 pm

I want to believe, I sure as hell would love if it were true...

But I have been losing my faith on Bioware in the last couple of years, and I'm starting to believe the shit ending presented to us was simply that, a shit ending.

I still think their original intent was IT, but now I'm considering the possibility they ran out of something. Time, money, maybe Godzilla knocked over their HQ when battling Megatoad, IDK. But it's getting harder and harder to keep believing.
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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by Terramine on Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:21 am

BlueLogic wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:*snip*
Faith in indoctrination? No, it's proven. As for a reveal the fact that they planned it all, means that either they think it's already revealed by the proof... or they have yet to make the inevitable reveal. I guess the proof is a reveal unto itself, but there is also proof Bioware wouldn't work like that because they don't make games THAT bad.


I'm a huge fan of Bioware, and I have a lot of faith in them. Looking at the ending through the lens of the Indoctrination Theory makes far more sense to me than a literal interpretation. The evidence supporting the IT, as well as Bioware's track record of success, incredible storytelling, subtlety, and trickery compel me to believe that this was their intention. However, it is impossible to prove their intentions unless and until they themselves make them clear. I think they should and will, but they may not. If not, then their intentions will remain a source of speculation.
I wish I had a good picture in response but I don't so I'll just put it in text: *Failed Buzzer sound here* WRONGO!

Oily shadows are only 1 possible thing, at least in this series. Shepard seeing oily shadows and dreaming of oily shadows, means he is suffering an indoctrination side effect... that is the ONLY thing it could be, undeniably so. If you follow the rules laid down by Bioware, oily shadows=indoctrination. During the ending Shepard becomes huskified in 2 of the endings, the fact that Reaper tech is inside of him by this point means he is indoctrinated. Also Reapers aside, TIM did in fact have control of Shepard through indoctrination, so at the very least TIM indoctrinated Shepard, but he was controlled by the Reapers so really Shepard is already showing signs of losing control to the Reapers, this is undeniable.

These are evidences that show it to be true. Oily Shadows=Indoctrination. Controlled by Indoctrination=Indoctrination.... lol it's that simple.

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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by noobcannon on Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:10 pm

ElSuperGecko wrote:I've had to go no I'm afraid people.

Bioware may well give us more hints and clues, they may even go so far as to alter player's perceptions of the ending choices, but an outright reveal? I'm not so sure. Not during ME3's life cycle, anyway. We may have to wait until ME4 to find out if our fears are finally realised...

god i hope we don't have to wait that long.
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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by BlueLogic on Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:29 pm

IronicParticle wrote:I wish I had a good picture in response but I don't so I'll just put it in text: *Failed Buzzer sound here* WRONGO! *snip*

Heheheh, when I think of "Failed Buzzer sound" my mind automatically goes to Family Feud:



You're preaching to the choir as far as indoctrination is concerned. I'm just nitpicking the definition and use of the words "faith" and "proof" while trying not to come off as a total a-hole.



...doh.
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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by RavenEyry on Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:54 pm

Is everyone arguing over the definition of 'proof' or something?
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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:20 pm

Laughing

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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by BlueLogic on Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:41 pm

RavenEyry wrote:Is everyone arguing over the definition of 'proof' or something?

This is what happens when waiting impatiently for DLC news :)
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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by Terramine on Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:36 am

BlueLogic wrote:
RavenEyry wrote:Is everyone arguing over the definition of 'proof' or something?

This is what happens when waiting impatiently for DLC news :)
Well, we could torture ourselves by going on the BSN... this is, preferable. JK, it's definitely way better here.

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Re: Do you believe in the reveal?

Post by RavenEyry on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:40 am

Damn right, at least most people here are open to other opinions, and opinions are based on fact and not insults.
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