Is Control Possible

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Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:11 pm

I know I am definitely in the minority who believe that TIM's goal of Control of the reapers is possible. But on Bleeding Uranium's suggestion I'm going to go ahead and make a thread to explain my reasoning.

**Disclaimer** I still pick Destroy in my ending choice for a variety of reasons, but I still think Control was very underwhelming in its presentation and it could have been so much more.


Alright here I go,


Control of reaper forces was shown to be possible on Sanctuary. The video logs and recordings show that Cerberus discovered the Reaper's control signal that is used to keep husks in line.

This was foreshadowed by Brynn Cole on Gellix. She said that while at Cerberus she was trying to understand Collector-Reaper transmissions and make a practical application. Her research may very well have been the precursor to understanding how to utilize the reaper signals themselves to control.

The Cerberus made husks are still vulnerable to control by Reaper forces, Cerberus than basically finds a way to twist this to their advantage, essentially find a way to use the reapers troops against them.

This is supported by Shepard's (auto) dialogue, specifically
-"The Reaper attacked because this place was a threat, I aim to find out why"
-"Cerberus was trying to find a way to control Reaper forces..... They succeeded."
-"What Cerberus found out wasn't worth all those lives"

So based on this we can say that Cerberus did in fact find a way to successfully maintain control of reaper ground troops in close proximity. This is further backed by Henry Lawson, "As long as the husks stay in proximity, we can maintain control indefinitely"

So Control of husks is possible, but how can you possibly control an entire armada of sapient starships?

There are a few reasons why this is possible.

1. The Reapers are machines, they are organic/synthetic hybrids in construction, but in thought and action they are synthetic, this is further backed up by Sovereign in his ME1 conversation. And since they are machines they can be re-written. If their base programming is altered they will behave differently. So if a signal was able to overcome all obstacles (will be touched on momentarily) there is no reason it couldn't put the Reaper under control of the signal.
2. The Catalyst as presented in a literalist interpretation of the endings is said to be the collective intelligence of all reapers, this does not mean he is in Direct control over every reaper personally. More likely, the reaper are programmed a certain way, and this programming basically guides their mind, think the heretics from ME2. They still have free will, but arrive at a certain conclusion because of their base programming. So if this is true than the reapers, like the geth heretics, are subject to a possible rewrite. This leads to my final point
3. The Crucible is a device that is capable of generating massive amounts of energy AND in conjunction with the Citadel can spread its energy across the galaxy via the mass relays. Now if the Crucible is capable of broadcasting a signal, which is then spread across the galaxy by the relays, it could theoretically reach all corners of the galaxy, again this is supported by the ending sequence. So the Crucile used as essentially a radio tower broadcasts a signal that alters the Reapers, congratulations you are now the proud owner of a reaper armada.

Now there are some issues that will certainly be raised about this.

Q-TIM is indoctrinated, so why should we listen to what he says?
A-Just because he is indoctrinated doesn't make him wrong about Control's feasibility. Furthermore Henry Lawson is actually our source for much of this information, and there is no evidence that I am aware of to suggest his indoctrination.

Q-Cerberus, like the Prothean splinter group, argued for Control and the Protheans were said to be indoctrinated, so why can Cerberus do it?
A-My idea on this is that not ALL of Cerberus has been completely indoctrinated, as ME3 progresses more and more of them are indoctrinated.

Q-Controlling a husk is very different from a reaper, they are too different.
A-No, the only difference is scale. They are both machines, and machines can be reprogrammed.

Thoughts?
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by solidsnake78 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:18 pm

On the surface, yes control seems to be not only possible, but just plain work. But I like to think that any control over the Reapers is an illusion, maybe its just me wishing that the Reapers are still incomprehensible space cthulus and can never be controlled by mere mortals.

But I will grant you that Horizon throws a wrench in that. You yourself have brought up an excellent point about it. Why would the Reapers attack the base if they were in fact in control the whole time? The only explanations that I have heard and think may be possible are A) The Reapers were just using Horizon the gather genetic materials to make a new human reaper or B) Bad writing. I lean more toward bad writing unfortunately.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by ElSuperGecko on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:19 pm

I'd say Control is possible, but not in the way TIM expects or believe it to be.

It's fairly clear from the EC slides and Shepard's dialogue that the AI that controls the Reapers is not actually Shepard. It is an artificial being created from Shepard's memories, and thoughts. How much of Shepard's own personality and will remains is, however, questionable.

So how does Control work, then? Simple. Shepard is uploaded into a Reaper body. He becomes the new Harbinger. The rest of the Reaper fleet bows down to him, follows his instructions and orders, on the behalf of the Catalyst.

So you see - the Catalyst does not lie. Control is possible. Shepard does essentially end up comanding the Reapers... however, the manner in which he Controls the Reapers may not be what people believe it to be, or hope it to be.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by umadcommander on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:19 pm

okay lets say IT is confirmed this means that The illusive man is still kicking, this could open up a possibility of agreeing with him and controlling the reapers. I dont think the squad will take too kindly to this but it would be a renegade ending done right

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:21 pm

solidsnake78 wrote:On the surface, yes control seems to be not only possible, but just plain work. But I like to think that any control over the Reapers is an illusion, maybe its just me wishing that the Reapers are still incomprehensible space cthulus and can never be controlled by mere mortals.

But I will grant you that Horizon throws a wrench in that. You yourself have brought up an excellent point about it. Why would the Reapers attack the base if they were in fact in control the whole time? The only explanations that I have heard and think may be possible are A) The Reapers were just using Horizon the gather genetic materials to make a new human reaper or B) Bad writing. I lean more toward bad writing unfortunately.
the sad fact of ME3 is that Reaper safe no longer Space Cthulhus, immense, unknowable beings. They just aren't.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:22 pm

ElSuperGecko wrote:I'd say Control is possible, but not in the way TIM expects or believe it to be.

It's fairly clear from the EC slides and Shepard's dialogue that the AI that controls the Reapers is not actually Shepard. It is an artificial being created from Shepard's memories, and thoughts. How much of Shepard's own personality and will remains is, however, questionable.

So how does Control work, then? Simple. Shepard is uploaded into a Reaper body. He becomes the new Harbinger. The rest of the Reaper fleet bows down to him, follows his instructions and orders, on the behalf of the Catalyst.

So you see - the Catalyst does not lie. Control is possible. Shepard does essentially end up comanding the Reapers... however, the manner in which he Controls the Reapers may not be what people believe it to be, or hope it to be.
What I've been proposing is best described as non-suicide Control, or Control without the Catalyst
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by solidsnake78 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:23 pm

Steelcan wrote:
solidsnake78 wrote:On the surface, yes control seems to be not only possible, but just plain work. But I like to think that any control over the Reapers is an illusion, maybe its just me wishing that the Reapers are still incomprehensible space cthulus and can never be controlled by mere mortals.

But I will grant you that Horizon throws a wrench in that. You yourself have brought up an excellent point about it. Why would the Reapers attack the base if they were in fact in control the whole time? The only explanations that I have heard and think may be possible are A) The Reapers were just using Horizon the gather genetic materials to make a new human reaper or B) Bad writing. I lean more toward bad writing unfortunately.
the sad fact of ME3 is that Reaper safe no longer Space Cthulhus, immense, unknowable beings. They just aren't.

Yeah, but for me to believe and follow IT, they have to keep some of that.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:26 pm

While there is truth to the "they are just machines and machines can be reprogrammed" there is a firmly established reason why it is not easy, the Geth.

As we learn the Geth can restore altered programs from memory making rewriting them exceedingly hard. No one has found a permanent way to do this in the Mass Effect universe, not even their creators who have been seeking a weapon for 300 years. Even when they find a weapon it is based upon overwhelming their sensors, not rewriting them.

And controlling a Husk is much different from controlling a full Reaper for that exact reason. A Husk is...a husk. They display every little in the way of sentience, probably acting only on what would be called instinct when not controlled by a Reaper command signal, essentially they are probably more akin to VI's than AI's.

Especially the fact that they are controlled by a signal like puppets on string applies by its very existence a viable control point.

However the Reaper's do not according to our knowledge have such a signal controlling them. They are pure AI's like the Geth so achieving control of them would not be as simple as boosting power of a command signal.

Even assuming you could rewrite a Reaper you would most likely need an access point of some sort in the first place to apply the effect and even with such an access point it might only affect a single Reaper at a time.

Remember we have no guarantees the Reapers have a consensus like the Geth which allow code to be shared easily. They may very well communicate in a more standard way preventing a quick spread of the rewrite.

But above all this comes down to overpowering the Reaper AI in order to rewrite it as it could most likely restore itself from memory much as a Geth does. Considering we could not even find a way to overcome the Geth and rewrite them (outside of the Reapers themselves) I consider the chances of that happening near zero, especially within the short timeframe Cerberus works on it when compared to the Quarians work against the Geth.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:28 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:While there is truth to the "they are just machines and machines can be reprogrammed" there is a firmly established reason why it is not easy, the Geth.

As we learn the Geth can restore altered programs from memory making rewriting them exceedingly hard. No one has found a permanent way to do this in the Mass Effect universe, not even their creators who have been seeking a weapon for 300 years. Even when they find a weapon it is based upon overwhelming their sensors, not rewriting them.

And controlling a Husk is much different from controlling a full Reaper for that exact reason. A Husk is...a husk. They display every little in the way of sentience, probably acting only on what would be called instinct when not controlled by a Reaper command signal, essentially they are probably more akin to VI's than AI's.

Especially the fact that they are controlled by a signal like puppets on string applies by its very existence a viable control point.

However the Reaper's do not according to our knowledge have such a signal controlling them. They are pure AI's like the Geth so achieving control of them would not be as simple as boosting power of a command signal.

Even assuming you could rewrite a Reaper you would most likely need an access point of some sort in the first place to apply the effect and even with such an access point it might only affect a single Reaper at a time.

Remember we have no guarantees the Reapers have a consensus like the Geth which allow code to be shared easily. They may very well communicate in a more standard way preventing a quick spread of the rewrite.

But above all this comes down to overpowering the Reaper AI in order to rewrite it as it could most likely restore itself from memory much as a Geth does. Considering we could not even find a way to overcome the Geth and rewrite them (outside of the Reapers themselves) I consider the chances of that happening near zero, especially within the short timeframe Cerberus works on it when compared to the Quarians work against the Geth.
. Do you remember Legion's loyalty mission? Where you can in fact rewrite the geth?
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:32 pm

Steelcan wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:While there is truth to the "they are just machines and machines can be reprogrammed" there is a firmly established reason why it is not easy, the Geth.

As we learn the Geth can restore altered programs from memory making rewriting them exceedingly hard. No one has found a permanent way to do this in the Mass Effect universe, not even their creators who have been seeking a weapon for 300 years. Even when they find a weapon it is based upon overwhelming their sensors, not rewriting them.

And controlling a Husk is much different from controlling a full Reaper for that exact reason. A Husk is...a husk. They display every little in the way of sentience, probably acting only on what would be called instinct when not controlled by a Reaper command signal, essentially they are probably more akin to VI's than AI's.

Especially the fact that they are controlled by a signal like puppets on string applies by its very existence a viable control point.

However the Reaper's do not according to our knowledge have such a signal controlling them. They are pure AI's like the Geth so achieving control of them would not be as simple as boosting power of a command signal.

Even assuming you could rewrite a Reaper you would most likely need an access point of some sort in the first place to apply the effect and even with such an access point it might only affect a single Reaper at a time.

Remember we have no guarantees the Reapers have a consensus like the Geth which allow code to be shared easily. They may very well communicate in a more standard way preventing a quick spread of the rewrite.

But above all this comes down to overpowering the Reaper AI in order to rewrite it as it could most likely restore itself from memory much as a Geth does. Considering we could not even find a way to overcome the Geth and rewrite them (outside of the Reapers themselves) I consider the chances of that happening near zero, especially within the short timeframe Cerberus works on it when compared to the Quarians work against the Geth.
. Do you remember Legion's loyalty mission? Where you can in fact rewrite the geth?

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Maximus on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:35 pm

Controling the Reapers is possible but highly unlikely, IMO. I luv Control ending though. Shepard/Reaper's speech is epic, music too!

"There is power in Control, there is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy"

Epic! ;>

I think that this whole Sanctuary stuff, and secrecy of Cerberus's missions (Like Benning, Grissom Academy etc) was meant to gather "materials" to create a Reaper in order to... well don't know what they wanna do with it, but it's definietly not about Controling the Reapers. Someone already said that before in Mark III, I believe it was Restrider, or Blur maybe? 0,o

Creating their own Cerberus Reaper is possible, they got genetic paste from the sanctuary, to form the Reaper's brain, blueprints based on data about Harbinger and Proto-Reaper to form the body and The Illusive Man as a Mind, singular conciousness which gives the Reaper it's identity...

Now where would they build it? It's a huge construct, difficult to hide. My bet is The Citadel, everyone's is dumb and blind anyway out there. They wouldn't see a Reaper even if it moved right through the station. The CItadel fits, it's a Reaper Factory, The Processor which no one ever saw including Javik in his cycle. They took all their toys from Cronos and moved to The Citadel, that is why Citadel's arms are closed, to protect newly created Human Reaper! I doubt they're protecting The Citadel from boarding parties, coz they want Shepard inside!

Assumptions, assumptions, I want IT reveal already! ;/

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:39 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?
. So? Cerberus reused Reaper Tech in all likely hood
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by solidsnake78 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:40 pm

Steelcan wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?
. So? Cerberus reused Reaper Tech in all likely hood

And all reaper tech does what people...

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:41 pm

solidsnake78 wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?
. So? Cerberus reused Reaper Tech in all likely hood

And all reaper tech does what people...
last time I checked the relays didnt indoctrinate.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by solidsnake78 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:44 pm

Steelcan wrote:
solidsnake78 wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?
. So? Cerberus reused Reaper Tech in all likely hood

And all reaper tech does what people...
last time I checked the relays didnt indoctrinate.

You know, I have been thinking about that, I think the Citadel VERY SUBTLY indoctrinates and pacifies everyone in it. The relays, don't know, maybe a similar effect. Or maybe the Leviathans made the relays? Is it ever stated for sure with all these retons about?

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:45 pm

Steelcan wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?
. So? Cerberus reused Reaper Tech in all likely hood

The Geth are Quarian tech through and through, that dident allow the Quarians to quickly come up with a way to control them even though it was their own tech.

Why would Reaper tech be any different in that regard, requiring extensive study to get anywhere (I repeat, it took the Quarians 300 years with Tech they had created) But it is a moot point anyway since TIM claims it is not Reaper tech which gave him the key he needed, but the Prothean data. Curious considering the Protheans trying to control the Reapers were Indoctrinated.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:49 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?
. So? Cerberus reused Reaper Tech in all likely hood

The Geth are Quarian tech through and through, that dident allow the Quarians to quickly come up with a way to control them even though it was their own tech.

Why would Reaper tech be any different in that regard, requiring extensive study to get anywhere (I repeat, it took the Quarians 300 years with Tech they had created) But it is a moot point anyway since TIM claims it is not Reaper tech which gave him the key he needed, but the Prothean data. Curious considering the Protheans trying to control the Reapers were Indoctrinated.
. The geth did evolve, the quarians had limited experiences with this evolution. So how could they control them easily?

And again, just because you are indoctrinated doesn't mean you a drooling idiot. Control is possible, whether you are indoctrinated or not.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Humakt on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:54 pm

You people talk about reprogramming the Reapers like they were only simple machines. ME 2 contradicts this assertion. And so does "We are Legion. Each a nation."

What is the nature of a Reaper?

One of the Walter's notes were about Reaper physiology and it was related to ME 3 ending.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:59 pm

Humakt83 wrote:You people talk about reprogramming the Reapers like they were only simple machines. ME 2 contradicts this assertion. And so does "We are Legion. Each a nation."

What is the nature of a Reaper?

One of the Walter's notes were about Reaper physiology and it was related to ME 3 ending.
geth are "Legion" literally and they can be reprogrammed
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Humakt on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:09 pm

Steelcan wrote:
Humakt83 wrote:You people talk about reprogramming the Reapers like they were only simple machines. ME 2 contradicts this assertion. And so does "We are Legion. Each a nation."

What is the nature of a Reaper?

One of the Walter's notes were about Reaper physiology and it was related to ME 3 ending.
geth are "Legion" literally and they can be reprogrammed

Geth are fully synthetic. The Reapers are not. That is possibly the reason how Leviathans managed to kill/disable them with their dominate ability (provided it wasn't just somekind of EMP). The galaxy knows a lot less about the Reapers than Geth.

The Reapers also indoctrinate many of their adversaries into believing that they could control the Reapers.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by solidsnake78 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:16 pm

Humakt83 wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
Humakt83 wrote:You people talk about reprogramming the Reapers like they were only simple machines. ME 2 contradicts this assertion. And so does "We are Legion. Each a nation."

What is the nature of a Reaper?

One of the Walter's notes were about Reaper physiology and it was related to ME 3 ending.
geth are "Legion" literally and they can be reprogrammed

Geth are fully synthetic. The Reapers are not. That is possibly the reason how Leviathans managed to kill/disable them with their dominate ability (provided it wasn't just somekind of EMP). The galaxy knows a lot less about the Reapers than Geth.

The Reapers also indoctrinate many of their adversaries into believing that they could control the Reapers.

Either they make them believe control is possible, or they just simply dominate. I think that it is almost narcissistic to think we could control something like that.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Humakt on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:24 pm

solidsnake78 wrote:
Either they make them believe control is possible, or they just simply dominate. I think that it is almost narcissistic to think we could control something like that.

Illusive Man: "Have a little faith."

Illusive Man: "Because... I need you to believe."

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by solidsnake78 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:25 pm

Humakt83 wrote:
solidsnake78 wrote:
Either they make them believe control is possible, or they just simply dominate. I think that it is almost narcissistic to think we could control something like that.

Illusive Man: "Have a little faith."

Illusive Man: "Because... I need you to believe."

AKA, "It's a trap!"

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by ElSuperGecko on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:26 pm

solidsnake78 wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?
. So? Cerberus reused Reaper Tech in all likely hood

And all reaper tech does what people...

Garrus: "Nothing good ever came from Reaper tech..."

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by symbowles on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:29 pm

TIM and Cerberus offer the same distractions to this cycle as the Prothean splinter faction did to Javik's cycle. Not only do the Reapers have their forces but they also have Cerberus forces to aid them in their harvest. The reapers let TIM think whatever he wants, as long as his agenda aligns with reaper goals, they really don't care how he does what he does. Perhaps something in sanctuary was deviating from reaper goals, so they invaded to keep everything in check. I think the fact that it took until sanctuary for the reapers and Cerberus to fight (do they ever even fight each other after that??) lends to this idea.

With that said, anything but destroying the reapers would be a complete insult to Shepard, Shepard's allies, the entire galaxy, and the countless species the reapers have already harvested. The reapers are abominations that deserve nothing less than complete destruction.

Like seriously, lets say there's some crazy murderer that has killed dozens of people in your city for his own purposes...you'd be comfortable with the police saying, "we control him now, it's all good, he's just gonna chill around the city now"





comon...

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