How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

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How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by noobcannon on Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:36 am

"You thought you were so special? Better than everyone else outside this room? You traded your freedom for the luxury of feeling superior. You accepted the group's will over your own conviction, no matter who you hurt. You thought you were just "going along for the ride", and you could just walk away at any moment. But where were you heading? How far would you have gone? Take a look at your future....."






that is a quote from a movie i saw my freshman year of college. after i beat mass effect 3 and really started buying into the major points of IT, it made me remember this movie. over the course of all three games i remember wondering; why would anyone fall for indoctrination, when so many people/cultures/species around them were dying. trillions dead over millions of years. why would anyone go along with that? why would anyone think that for one second the reapers had any merit whatsoever?

the movie is called the wave, and it is about a highschool teacher in the 60's who tries to show his students why germany went along with the facist party following world war I.

like i said, my feelings on the comparisons between this movie and mass effect are my own and would love to discuss them here since bsn frowns on such things Rolling Eyes

WARNING: this movie is from the 80's and is EXTREMELY chessey/corny. however the message is pretty powerful and I really really really would love to have a civil conversation about either the movie, me3, or a comparisson of the 2 with out getting my ass trolled off. THANKS!!! Laughing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICng-KRxXJ8

also, here is the wiki link, courtesy of Rankincountry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave


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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by Rankincountry on Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:21 pm

I've not seen the film, but it is based on real events that played out much as described - here's a wikipedia link. I think you're on to something here, though the best parallel through the ME trilogy that I can see with The Third Wave is probably Cerberus. When you read the movie quote in the OP it really hits the spot. In fact, in a renegade playthrough of ME2 you could argue Shepard gets sucked in.

The Third Wave, along with some other experiments with very sinister implications, notably the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prison Experiment go a long way towards explaining why apparently ordinary people can be led to carry out the most grotesque acts. I'd say that this doesn't just apply to despotic regimes or other oppressive groups, but also those who collude in unethical acts by big businesses.

Other groups - religious cults would be an example - offer the same comforting sense of conformity and belonging whilst also pretending to offer some kind of revelation or enlightenment. Taking it back to ME, I think is a big part of how the reapers operate. Kenson and Saren both seemed to believe that they had had some kind of great truth revealed to them by the reapers.

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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:31 pm

It's been ages since I saw The Wave, but I definitely think the idea is more or less the same.

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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by MaximizedAction on Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:24 pm

That's what I get for not having watched the movie. I must've heard about The Wave thousands of times already and the story, but apparently not as well that I didn't see the connection.

Kudos seeing the resemblance!

So, yet ANOTHER example for why the IT is very much possible?!

I have a question though, since I haven't seen the film yet and I don't know the full outcome (I'm aware of spoilers):

Does the following excuse apply in the end:
They only thought it was a game and therefore a real world scenario working out the same way wouldn't have been possible?

Because I can imagine this excuse for players who fell for the ending:
They wouldn't have fallen for the Guardian if this were real life and their decisions had real world consequences...

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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by noobcannon on Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:34 pm

MaximizedAction wrote:That's what I get for not having watched the movie. I must've heard about The Wave thousands of times already and the story, but apparently not as well that I didn't see the connection.

So, yet ANOTHER example for why the IT is very much possible?!

I have a question though, since I haven't seen the film yet and I don't know the full outcome (I'm aware of spoilers):

Does the following excuse apply in the end:
They only thought it was a game and therefore a real world scenario working out the same way wouldn't have been possible?

Because I can imagine this excuse for players who fell for the ending:
They wouldn't have fallen for the Guardian if this were real life and their decisions had real world consequences...

it never reaches that level the in film (never spreads past their own school). you should watch it man! it's a tough watch at first (it's so cheesey it's embarassing) but it's worth it i promise.


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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by MaximizedAction on Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:47 pm

noobcannon wrote:

it never reaches that level the film (never spreads past their own school). you should watch it man! it's a tough watch at first (it's so cheesey it's embarassing) but it's worth it i promise.
Oh I will, but what I meant was, in retrospect:

Say an IT reveal is coming and players will later be asked how they felt about siding with the Reapers (control/synth):
They'll say: Oh well, that never would've happened to me if this were the real world and not just a game/experiment/videogame.

Do the kids in the movie say the same thing?

Considering experiments like that classroom experiment, or the other famous Stanford prison experiment it looks like people really grow into their supposed game roles.

That would of course also explain why some of the hardcore Synth/Ctrl supporters exist, and are likely to act similarly if, say, all ME would play it out in a real life experiment, i.e. outside of the internet/computer/console

Man, you're a genius. I love this! Big time! It makes me believe in the IT even more. cheers

EDIT:
I wanted to ask you if you considered posting this on the BSN but remembered that IT and Indoctrination are basically banned from the BSN. Which of course also fits the movie. Tongue

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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by noobcannon on Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:03 pm

MaximizedAction wrote:
noobcannon wrote:

it never reaches that level the film (never spreads past their own school). you should watch it man! it's a tough watch at first (it's so cheesey it's embarassing) but it's worth it i promise.
Oh I will, but what I meant was, in retrospect:

Say an IT reveal is coming and players will later be asked how they felt about siding with the Reapers (control/synth):
They'll say: Oh well, that never would've happened to me if this were the real world and not just a game/experiment/videogame.

Do the kids in the movie say the same thing?

Considering experiments like that classroom experiment, or the other famous Stanford prison experiment it looks like people really grow into their supposed game roles.


a
That would of course also explain why some of the hardcore Synth/Ctrl supporters exist, and are likely to act similarly if, say, all ME would play it out in a real life experiment, i.e. outside of the internet/computer/console

Man, you're a genius. I love this! Big time! It makes me believe in the IT even more. cheers

EDIT:
I wanted to ask you if you considered posting this on the BSN but remembered that IT and Indoctrination are basically banned from the BSN. Which of course also fits the movie. Tongue

ah. actually you never find out in the movie. it pretty much ends right after the "reveal"

as for posting in bsn, it got locked in about 5 minutes, so i came here lol.

Ninja Stan wrote...

noobcannon wrote...

first i just want to say this is NOT meant to be a direct comparrison of the nazi party to any particular ending of mass effect 3, nor is it meant to be an "IT" thread. what it IS meant to be is me sharing and talking about a film i saw my freshman year of college that, for me, personally, played a major role in why i felt and still feel the destroy ending is the only "right" ending. i am not saying it should or would have the same influence on anyone else, just saying it did for me.

it's a very old film (late 70's i think) and for the most part, extremely cheesey. but if anyone has time to watch it (it's about 40 minutes or so), or has already seen it, i really really would like to discuss it with people. so with that in mind, please do not get this thread locked by trolling, instigating, mocking, etc. if certain people (birdsallsa) show up, just ignore them. thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICng-KRxXJ8


No political threads and no swearing, please.

End of line.

i also recieved responses such as

what's your point? you like destroy?

there's a reason no one has heard of this movie..

Head meets wall


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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by hukbum on Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:05 pm

Don't watch the movie, read the book Wink

Look like I'm getting old (damn ^^), because at my time at school "Die Welle / The wave" was quite common and I had to write an essay about it.

But there's one thing I really don't like about this comparison:
I want to enjoy games, I don't want them to screw arround with my head ...

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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by noobcannon on Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:09 pm

hukbum wrote:Don't watch the movie, read the book Wink

Look like I'm getting old (damn ^^), because at my time at school "Die Welle / The wave" was quite common and I had to write an essay about it.

But there's one thing I really don't like about this comparison:
I want to enjoy games, I don't want them to screw arround with my head ...

there's a book? guess i don't feel as old i as i thought Tongue

EDIT: oh you're 28. so am i, nvm. lol
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by hukbum on Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:14 pm

noobcannon wrote:
EDIT: oh you're 28. so am i, nvm. lol
No, I think had 28 posts or I'm aging faster than I want to Grin
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by noobcannon on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:39 pm

hukbum wrote:
noobcannon wrote:
EDIT: oh you're 28. so am i, nvm. lol
No, I think had 28 posts or I'm aging faster than I want to Grin

aaah didnt have my glasses on. guess i am old.
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by Andromidius on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:22 pm

What is Ninja Stan smoking (other then Chris Priestly's flacid penis)?

He locked the thread for being 'politicial', despite it not being about politics? And no swearing, despite there being no swearing in your post and swearing being RAMPANT on BSN?

What a fucking awful moderator/admin. That's just pure ineptitude. Shame on you, Ninja Stan, you toady shill.

...

Anyway, interesting comparison there.

As for the question why people fall even for real-life indoctrination, the power of suggestion and wanting to believe is often stronger then the power of evidence and logic.

Its why we have religious cults that commit murders and mass suicides.

Its why we have Holocaust deniers.

Its why we have people who think basic medicine is actually harmful and then wonder why their children die of preventable illnesses.

Isolate someone and eventually you can make them believe whatever you want them to believe. Repeat a lie often enough, and someone will believe it.

Reaper Indoctrination is even more powerful, in that it actively starts to 'rewire' the brain to accept these new concepts, twists the victim's current beliefs and values, causes doubts when things conflict the Reaper's plans.

There's no real defense against it, other then being very aware that it exists and to focus on your original goals no matter what. Ignore doubt, ignore new evidence, ignore pleading requests that things are different this time. Focus on the revulsion every sentient being should have towards the Reapers.
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by hukbum on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:01 pm

About the lockdown on BSN:

The "wave"-experiment is a sensitive subject that got out of hand pretty quick. I understand Stan's caution about this topic.
Do some research about it and you'll understand. The original experiment was quit in an much earlier state than the book/movie (if I remember right, they stoped in the middle of the book and the rest is fiction).

The experiment and the book is nothing but politics and talking about how propaganda works. It's a oneway road because of that. And now add BSN-stupidity to it and you'll know why the thread got locked. It'll never produce anything good.
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by Andromidius on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:14 pm

By that logic every single thread on BSN should be locked.
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by hukbum on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:20 pm

Andromidius wrote:By that logic every single thread on BSN should be locked.
Nah, people will need a place to talk about who to f... *ährm* romance in the next DLC, arguing who's more genocidal and bad writing Grin
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by MaximizedAction on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:46 pm

I tried reading the Synthesis support thread with "The Wave" in mind. It's mind-blowing.

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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by noobcannon on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:30 am

hukbum wrote:About the lockdown on BSN:

The "wave"-experiment is a sensitive subject that got out of hand pretty quick. I understand Stan's caution about this topic.
Do some research about it and you'll understand. The original experiment was quit in an much earlier state than the book/movie (if I remember right, they stoped in the middle of the book and the rest is fiction).

The experiment and the book is nothing but politics and talking about how propaganda works. It's a oneway road because of that. And now add BSN-stupidity to it and you'll know why the thread got locked. It'll never produce anything good.

i think you're right. i told stan how i felt about it but that ill respect his decision. i also told him they are being completely overzealous with lockdowns on anything related to indoctrination and he didnt respond to that.

while on the topic of threads being locked, it seems they aren't just locking IT threads anymore, but indoctrination threads in general.....

RaenImrahl wrote...

noobcannon wrote...

before ME3 was released it was revealed that they wanted to implement an indoctrination mechanic with shepard but couldn't get it to "feel right" and so it was removed, much like the illusive man "boss fight". so my question is this, if bioware had gone through with an indoctrination mechanic, how do you think they would've/could've done it?

IT should be discussed in the IT group. Thanks.
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by noobcannon on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:55 am

Rankincountry wrote:I've not seen the film, but it is based on real events that played out much as described - here's a wikipedia link. I think you're on to something here, though the best parallel through the ME trilogy that I can see with The Third Wave is probably Cerberus. When you read the movie quote in the OP it really hits the spot. In fact, in a renegade playthrough of ME2 you could argue Shepard gets sucked in.

The Third Wave, along with some other experiments with very sinister implications, notably the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prison Experiment go a long way towards explaining why apparently ordinary people can be led to carry out the most grotesque acts. I'd say that this doesn't just apply to despotic regimes or other oppressive groups, but also those who collude in unethical acts by big businesses.

Other groups - religious cults would be an example - offer the same comforting sense of conformity and belonging whilst also pretending to offer some kind of revelation or enlightenment. Taking it back to ME, I think is a big part of how the reapers operate. Kenson and Saren both seemed to believe that they had had some kind of great truth revealed to them by the reapers.

I like to think about the comparison directly to Shepard perhaps even more than Cerberus (TIM) or Saren because Shepard is YOU - the player. Much like the student at the beginning of the video asking "How could the Germans just sit back and not know what was going on?", it would like me asking Bioware how can someone just be indoctrinated? Why would Dr. Kenson, knowing full well what indoctrination is, just "change her mind" all of a sudden? Why wouldn't she just say no? Up until the end of ME3, Bioware is essentially Mr. Jones (the teacher); they don't know how to answer that question. It would be like me trying to explain color to a blind person, or sound to someone who is deaf. How would you do it?.......

INDOCTRINATION THEORY THAT'S HOW!!!!
cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by noobcannon on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:11 am

you know, now that I think about it, i'm surprised they haven't made a full length feature film about this story. i'm a big michael mann fan, and i think this would be a perfect movie for him. (just saw the insider last night for the first time in years and forgot how great of a movie that was.)

hukbum wrote:Don't watch the movie, read the book Wink

Look like I'm getting old (damn ^^), because at my time at school "Die Welle / The wave" was quite common and I had to write an essay about it.

But there's one thing I really don't like about this comparison:
I want to enjoy games, I don't want them to screw arround with my head ...

took your advice and bought the book on amazon today. can't wait to read it. here's the link for anyone who want's to check it out.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Wave-Todd-Strasser/dp/0307979121/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1361420199&sr=8-3&keywords=the+wave
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by Andromidius on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:28 am

Its clear the moderators on BSN don't bother reading posts anymore. They just respond to troll reports of IT threads then lock them.

i.e. They cater to trolls. That's BAD.

Note, I also had several of my posts outright deleted with no comment made. Seems Priestly doesn't like people to call him out on his bullshit. Obviously he didn't get enough loving as a child.
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by noobcannon on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:43 am

Andromidius wrote:Its clear the moderators on BSN don't bother reading posts anymore. They just respond to troll reports of IT threads then lock them.

i.e. They cater to trolls. That's BAD.

Note, I also had several of my posts outright deleted with no comment made. Seems Priestly doesn't like people to call him out on his bullshit. Obviously he didn't get enough loving as a child.

i'm hoping it's part of bioware's mass indoctrination on all of us. make us feel like outcasts for not playing along, pretending to punish us for not siding with the reapers...... :devil:

but yeah my threads get locked in 5 minutes while wulf rambles on and on about how i'm a facist for killing the geth and that i support genocide.....
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by Andromidius on Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:23 am

Indeed. Trolls are free to make all the 'political' accusations they like, yet serious threads that try to avoid such discussions get locked.

Bullshit, regardless of the intentions.
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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by Rankincountry on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:52 pm

noobcannon wrote:

I like to think about the comparison directly to Shepard perhaps even more than Cerberus (TIM) or Saren because Shepard is YOU - the player. Much like the student at the beginning of the video asking "How could the Germans just sit back and not know what was going on?", it would like me asking Bioware how can someone just be indoctrinated? Why would Dr. Kenson, knowing full well what indoctrination is, just "change her mind" all of a sudden? Why wouldn't she just say no? Up until the end of ME3, Bioware is essentially Mr. Jones (the teacher); they don't know how to answer that question. It would be like me trying to explain color to a blind person, or sound to someone who is deaf. How would you do it?.......

INDOCTRINATION THEORY THAT'S HOW!!!!
cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

This ties in with the way that the player experiences the ending as Shepard. Things take a disorienting turn towards weirdness at Cronos, with the videos of TIM and the presence of the human proto-reaper corpse. Then there's the frenetic combat of Priority: Earth mixed with some disturbing little vignettes, like the datapad that describes the effect of the Reaper Beam. Then, the madness of the beam run itself - and pre-EC, without the Normandy pick-up scene, Shepard has no way of knowing if any of the squad, perhaps including his/her lover, are alive. The hit by Harbinger's laser means Shepard wakes up, alone, wounded, stripped bare of armour, poorly armed and unable to use any combat abilities. Riding the beam to an unknown part of the Citadel uncovers a disturbing charnel house made up of oddly familiar shapes. The reassuring sight of Anderson at the control panel is then interrupted by the arrival of a grotesquely reaperised TIM and the bizarre confrontation which follows. Finally, Anderson dies and Shepard is left alone, probably with not long to live and with no idea how to activate the crucible. And at this lowest point, bloodied, exhausted, alone, we meet the Catalyst - the controlling intelligence behind the reapers.

At this point, let's think about how real-world indoctrination works. Essentially it works by breaking down a person's individuality and instilling in them a new set of values, which they are never given the opportunity to appraise critically. This is exactly what the catalyst is doing to Shepard. Bioware's genius, if IT is true, is that they smash open the fourth wall and do it to the player as well. Shepard and the player (Sheplayer?) are physically and mentally battered when they make it into the decision chamber (it was 3am or so, and I'd basically played through Cronos and Priority: Earth in one sitting which seems to be a lot of people's experience. I was honestly knackered, and ME3 on a first playthrough is a proper emotional rollercoaster).

The catalyst's approach is to offer a way out of the cycles that seemingly means the fighting will stop. At the same time, the catalyst does everything possible to denigrate destroy. Given the confusion of the final act of ME3, Sheplayer by this point has probably forgotten the advice of Hackett and their closest friends and is reeling from seeing Anderson die (I had something unmanly in my eye at that moment :( ). The catalyst's speech is designed to obfuscate that control is basically a trap and that synthesis is the embracing of Reaper values, offering through the madness and bloodshed a way for Shepard to be the saviour of all life, or the temptation of ultimate power, which of course you would totally use for good and in no way be corrupted by. Would you?

In other words, the whole set-up is designed to make Sheplayer not only forget who they are, but to embrace the philosophy and values of the enemy. It might just be the finest example of videogame writing and fourth-wall breaching ever. I really hope so. And look at the control and synthesis supporters on BSN to see how alarmingly effective it is.

And remember, Mac Walters is a psychology major. Any psychologist will be familiar with The Third Wave, Stanford Prison, Milgram and all the behavioural research that came in their wake. And, just maybe, Mac is a better writer than any of us ever imagined.

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Everywhere I go I hear what's going on
And the more I hear the less I know
Everywhere I go I hear what's going on
And the more I hear the less I know

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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:00 pm

The Wave is a good indoctrination piece in itself, even if I agree with most or at least much of it.
(Israeli Educational Television = likely pro Israel, Public Education = likely pro state education, Mainstream Entertainment = pro actors and studios instead of individual interaction, all being factors)

However, its also important to note that Destroy, as an idea being shared, is also a form of indoctrination. It's only a more humanistic (by our definition) indoctrination, as opposed to the much more:

-insidious
-biologically changing
-utterly contrary

form of Reaper indoctrination. Symbolically, it is religious indoctrination at its very, very, very, very worst, with a strong sci-fi bend.

Indoctrination itself isn't necessarily negative. We can be indoctrinated into learning how to heal people's bodies, or into systems of thinking that can more easily comprehend the cosmos in more concrete terms, etc.

But Reaper indoctrination is the worst conception of fascist and totalitarian indoctrination. It overwrites everything about what you once were, without you even realizing it.

And I agree with Rankin. There seems to be another layer to this Mass Effect story, behind the increasing shooter-game element that this series has adopted.

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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:08 pm

I think what the Wave misses is that the German population was also grateful for leadership, not just blindly willing to follow any instruction. It's a bit of a shallow presentation, in order to make its point.

The thing with Reaper indoc is that it forgets about any social, cultural, or emotional concerns, and just enters the mind ASAP. That makes it a bit more of a special and powerful concern.

And when you're facing that, the only way to 'defeat' it is to 100% CLOSE your mind, at that point. You need to stay 100% on your GOAL and HOW EXACTLY you will accomplish it, and even then your motor functions could be compromised.

And that's a bit how one has to 'escape' a religion or cult or just 'worship' in itself (of a person or state), once utterly immersed in it. Everything is a distraction in order to get you to believe things you wouldn't otherwise believe, or do things you would otherwise be loathe to do.


EDIT: I guess my (biased?) point is that strong forms of indoctrination (irl) are SEPARATE from other personal, emotional, cultural, etc concerns. They're their own entity and can be all consuming of one's mind.

And then most people tend to respond to this idea with: "It could never happen to me. You're overreacting."

Look at history, and you may see otherwise.

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Re: How could anyone fall for indoctrination???

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