Sign the Declaration of IT.
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Sign the Declaration of IT.
by Master Blaster Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:18 am
Leave where you are from, and your profile name.
WE THE ITERS have always supported Bioware in hopes the end to ME3 was not bad righting. Many times we argued with Literalist, Trolls, and Anti ITers, and many of us have been ban for arguing with them. In hopes of better relations with Bioware, and the other ME fans. We write this Declaration.
SECTION 1:
Iters are not cults for starters. Anyone who calls ITers cults should go read what they post, read a dictionary on what a cult means, and ask themselves why do I call them a cult if they are not. Should those people fail to stop calling ITers cults. The ITers have a right to talk back, and have them reported. If an ITer calls them a cult, then punishment is acceptable, so long as he, or she did not start it fights. However ITers are strongly encouraged to not bother with the people that call them cults, but if need be then go ahead.
Those who say IT is dis proven need to play Leviathan, Omega, and replay the endings. They must find evidence to support when IT was dis proven, if Bioware said themselves they would confirm nor deni IT/ called IT a valid interpretation of the ending. If the people calling the Indoctrination Theory debunked after the EC, they must show evidence, and explain how it did. If an ITer claims the ending is Shepard being Indoctrinated, they must show evidence to support themselves, as well as explain it. If an ITer claims Bioware intended IT, they must show evidence as well through anything ME related, and Bioware themselves.
Literalist must be nice to ITers, as well as ITers being nice to the literalist during debates, and arguments. If either one fails to complies, then all debates going on with those people starting to call each other names, or insulting once intelligence must leave imminently.
Those who call ME bad writing must explain how it is, and show evidence to support their claim. ITer must also support their claims that Bioware are good writers. Fail to do so, and either one who failed to support the claims without evidence is under review until evidence is brought forward.
Literalist, Trolls, Anti ITers are not allowed to provoke ITers. If they do, then the Mods on the BSN should ban them if they provoke the ITers, instead of the ITers getting banned. If an ITer provokes either one of those groups, then the same rule apply s.
If somebody reports an IT thread without any evidence to back up their report, then that thread shall stay open. If mod closes, and bans that thread that didn't talk about IT, and just Indoctrination, then that thread shall be reopened, however if its talking about Shepard being Indoctrinated, then the thread stays closed.
If any thread is caught off topic, then they must be given a warning to get back off topic. If a mod closes that thread for being off topic, without giving them one warning to get back off topic, then that thread shall stay open, or be reopened. However that one warning must and can only be used against that thread, if the mod has been keeping tabs on that thread, and not coming in and closing it for being off topic months or weeks later.
Mods have to do their job, and not close the threads down without reason, or representation. Failed to follow this, and the mods shall not close down that thread, or ban the people in it without evidence to support their claim.
Those who do not know about IT at all, and partack in going along about IT is bs. Should not have a say in the matter, unless they at least know the basics of IT. Those who tell people about IT,and are miss informed about IT need to really know what IT is all about. They don't have to, but recommended to do so.
ITers that go to bash literal interpenetration, or any other theory needs to have a talk with the group leaders of IT for further punishment. IF failed to follow this, then banishment may come up on your charges.
Any body who wants to engage in a debate against a literalist, or ITer, must have the consent of the person who is willing to go into a debate. If the person did not agree, then the debate will not take place.
All debates must stay on that topic. There will be not, "but this happens", or " Your wrong because this happens". It must stay on that topic, or a debate, will turn into an argument, which will lead to flame war.
Bad writing can only be used IF there is evidence, and a clear explanation to back it up bad writing. However if there is no evidence, or explanation to why their assumptions of calling ME ending, or in general bad writing, then they can not use bad writing to support their arguments. This goes for Literalist, Trolls, Anti ITers, and ITers.
Everyone has their own opinion, however this is to help everyone's opinion far, and not turning out into a flame war.
SECTION 2:
The ITers are not asking for a better ending. The ITers think the endings are great because of the theory that Shepard is being Indoctrinated. There are many people who say the ITers want a better ending, but that is false.
ITers are not evil, nor are they rude people. For over the months the ITers have been singled out by Literalist, Trolls, and Anti ITers alike. However ITers have been aggressive to, yet all have done this, so all are to blame.
The ITers ask only for people to understand IT, and not bash it for no reason what so ever. Yes there are times where ITers bash the other factions, yet that's all the ITers ask. If anyone does this, then the ITers will stop bashing any other faction mentioned in this deceleration.
The ITers that created the list, did not do so as dividing people into hit list, but to keep count of all the people who have been into the IT thread, and on every thousand post the ITer honor everyone who has been on the IT thread. Sure the ITer that created the list did in fact put them everyone into categories, but it was to separate anyone from calling themselves a person who dislikes IT, only for somebody to find out that that person claiming to have no ties with IT is in fact under the name Indoctrination Theorist.
SECTION 3:
For month after month trolls have become a problem to all ITers, and literalist. This shall not be tolerated anymore. If any body is found to be trollling an ITer, and literalist. ITers, and literalist shall help each other, and report them as one. If no mod does not do anything with this problem, the the ITers, and literalist have the power to launch a complaint against the mods on the BSN.
Calling anyone a troll right away is uncalled for unless evidence over time shows up. If that person is suspected of being a troll, and is founds out not guilty. Everyone must leave that subject alone, unless evidence over time pops up, and the actions that person takes.
SECTION 4:
The Indoctrination Theory is about Shepard being Indoctrinated, not Shepard is Indoctrinated. Unless the person who picks Destroy, or Refuse, then their Shepard is not Indoctrinated. Only if the person who picks Control, and synthesis have their Shepard's become Indoctrinated. However this does not mean that Control, and Refuse have no meaning. If Bioware chooses to do IT, or is doing IT, then maybe in Control, and Synthesis endings you can play as Anderson, a Squad member, or MP character and take down your Shepard, and win the war against the Reapers. Thus Shepard DID end the Reaper threat because he, or she caused the war to be won. Maybe Bioware could also let you play as an Indoctrinated Shepard, and you are the reaper controlling your Shepard, and destroying all of your work.
Destroy is Shepard breaking free of Indoctrination. Why because if you look at Control, and synthesis Shepard does not use his, or her gun. In ME1 Liara's mom talked about how Indoctrination feels like you are beating on glass. In Destroy there is a glass shield over the Destroy ending. Possible symbolizing that you broke the Indoctrination attempt. Then there are the soldiers in the Destroy ending. They are shown winning in Destroy ending, yet in Synthesis, and control ending loosing the battle. Not to mention a husk is shown dominating the soldier with the gun. Maybe symbolizing the Reapers are now in Control of Shepard. Sure in Control, and Synthesis the husk back off once the beam hits, however there is reason to believe that the ending can be all created inside Shepard's head. In Leviathan Shepard at the end of Leviathan is talking to Leviathan inside his, or her own head. Moreover Shepard believes at first this is all real, yet despite the fact that he, or she was in an Atlas a few seconds ago. Leviathan however tells Shepard that it's Shepard's memory's that allow for all of this that Shepard sees to take place. Leviathan is also shown taking the forms of Ann, and the two other guys Shepard meets in Leviathan. Sounds familiar right. The Catalyst perhaps.
Then you have the whole lay down of the Leviathan talk to talk, and the similarities between the Catalyst. Looks ever similar no? Then you have Anderson dying if you fail to save him from TIM. Why does Anderson's death affect how the crucible fires? Makes no sense at all. You can say bad writing, however evidence and explanation please. Moreover when you get to the scene where the catalyst talks about his logic, and solution for those who have played all dlc's, and ME1, and ME2. You should know by now that what the brat says is falls. Well backfired to be more accurate. He claims that it is trying to stop organics from getting killed by synthetics, only to use synthetics to kill organics. IT tells use/Shepard that synthesis can't be forced, well you force it one everyone. Yes the other endings to, but for the most part it says synthesis can't be force.
SECTION 5:
This is a list of quotes that support IT.
Disclaimer:
We do not claim that these quotes 'prove' IT as such. These quotes are meant to illustrate how IT is supported by the themes of the games.
This is a community effort. All the quotes you see here, were collected by the many members of this community, and are meant as a resource for all of us to use in discussion, when making videos, etcetera.
I have tried my best to verify most of these quotes for exactness by looking at the source material. Should you, despite my efforts, find any error, do not hesitate to point it out. There's a handful of quotes in there, of which I am not sure who said them. If you have anything to add or rectify at all, just let me know.
I have tried to roughly categorize these quotes. This is just intended to facilitate finding them, not to put exact labels on them. Some quotes fit into several categories at once, so there might be a few isolated cases where I put the same quote in two different categories.
As for the quotes in the 'Foreshadowing' category: I hope it goes without saying that we don't all uniformly agree on what does or does not constitute foreshadowing. For a more in-depth discussion of this category, please see the topic about Hidden messages in the dialogue.
This list is by no means finished, and is still a work in progress, as I am certain we are still missing certain important quotes.
Categories:
1. General Indoctrination-related
2. Anti-Control/Synthesis
3. Pro-Destroy
---A. General
---B. Being prepared to make sacrifices
4. The Reaper AI's story doesn't match with what we know
5. The Reapers want control over Shepard's mind
6. Mentions of illusions, dreams, nightmares, waking up and denying reality
7. Possible references to things outside of the game itself (4th wall breaking)
8. Foreshadowing
---A. The End
---B. The Reaper AI
---C. Indoctrination
---D. The ending/victory isn't real
---E. The destroy ending & the breath scene
---F. Shepard isn't dead, and will get out of the rubble
---G. It isn't over
---H. Control
---I. Synthesis
Codex entry on Indoctrination: Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.
Soldier: But converting other life forms into Reapers... I can't wrap my head around that.
Garrus: Makes sense to me. It ensures you never run out of cannon fodder. Eliminates any local resistance. And for every soldier you add, your enemy loses two: the one you converted, and his buddy on the other side who can't pull the trigger on a friend. (...)
Soldier: But the Reapers want to destroy us.
Garrus: And I have no intention of letting them. But If you don't respect your enemy's capabilities, you're in for one nasty surprise after another.
Javik: In our cycle, entire planets were lost because a few leaders were indoctrinated. They urged their armies to fight one another.
Leviathan: Your own species could be destroyed by a single thought.
Leviathan: Your memories will give voice to our words. Your nature will be revealed to us. Accept this.
Leviathan: Each Reaper has the power to influence organics. Over countless cycles, this ability was refined, perfected, and gave rise to indoctrination.
Rachni Queen (Re: Rachni War): No. We-- I do not know what happened in the war. We only heard discordance, songs the color of oily shadows.
Rachni Queen (Re: her survival - hearing her mother cry in her dreams): A tone from space hushed one voice after another. It forced the singers to resonate with its own sour, yellow note.
2. Anti-Control/Synthesis:
EDI: Admiral Anderson reports that the Reapers on Earth are broadcasting orders. They are demanding human leaders enter their superstructures in order to, "Negotiate peace."
Shepard: Anybody aboard a Reaper is gonna be indoctrinated.
EDI: Exactly. This is a ruse to pacify the populace during that process. Citizens who are busy waiting, are not busy fighting. It is likely that the governments of Earth will soon enact laws punishing those who attack the Reaper occupiers. Again, this will be done in the name of peace.
Shepard: Are you saying submission is preferable to extinction?
EDI: My primary function is to preserve and defend the....no.
EDI: When two AI weapons are pitted against each other, the one with superior hardware will always win. Human misjudgements defy predictive models.
Garrus: That sounds dangerously close to Indoctrination, unless there is something i am missing. Maybe this is how AI's settle religious disputes.
Gavin Archer: This is a hybrid intelligence the likes of which I have never seen. I don't know where the man ends and the machine begins.
Shepard: You should have considered that before you started the experiment.
Gavin Archer: I'm begging you, don't do anything rash.
Shepard: Rash? Like forcing your brother into an experiment?
Gavin Archer: I know how this must look, but I never intended any harm to come to him. You must believe me.
Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.
Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?
Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves. When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.
Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties! We could avoid war with the Geth altogether. That was the plan, anyway.
Shepard: What went wrong with the experiment?
Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.
Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.
Grunt: Kill them or pull their teeth, whats the difference? They're killed both ways. Take away their fighting spirit, what else matters?
Shepard: The Illusive Man talked about controlling the Reapers. He seems to think that's how we win this.
Hackett: He's wrong. Dead Reapers are how we win this.
Shepard: What are your thoughts on Cerberus?
Hackett: I think it's obvious by now the Illusive Man is insane.
Not that he wasn't always a special form of crazy, but this is getting downright dangerous. And I don't care what he thinks he's proven. There's only one way we defeat the Reapers: no more Reapers.
Shepard: But what if the Reapers really can be controlled?
Hackett: That's like trying to tame a shark: somebody's going to end up dead. In this case, it would be the whole galaxy. He's the worst possible person to give that kind of power to. Kill him. That's an order.
Jack: Wow, great choices. Genocide or Brainwashing. If you screwed with my head, made me nod and smile at everything, I'd rather you blew my head off. Let me die as me.
Jacob: Changing their personality is the same as killing them...who they are is gone.
Javik: Subjugating the Reapers will not bring victory, only extinction will.
Javik: In my cycle, a race called the Zha used machines, the Zha'til, as synthetic symbiotes. The Reapers subjugated the Zha'til as they have the geth. Their mechanical swarms blotted out the sky. They were brutal, merciless.
Tali: Keelah. What did you do?
Javik: We sent their star into supernova. I believe the Zha would have thanked us.
Shepard: I destroyed a system to take out the Alpha Relay. It wasn't an easy decision.
Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik: Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.
Kasumi: Either way, the Heretics are wiped out. Killed or remade. What is the difference?
Legion: an interesting choice, Shepard Commander. Your species was offered everything Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought.
Shepard: You told me the Reapers were more my future than yours. You knew what they were, didn't you?
Legion: Transcended flesh, billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. "Each a nation." We did not "know". It was one hypothesis among many. When Nazara corrupted the heretics, we touched its minds. We perceived they were different from ours, but could not tell how.
Aethyta: I've heard stories about the Reapers messing with your head.
Liara: They're more than stories. I've seen it. Every Cerberus soldier is a Reaper slave.
Mordin: Discovery. Based on Prothean-Collector connection, can examine technology, chart Reaper species-modification. Fall of Protheans. Early stages similar to indoctrination. Can guess captured Protheans lost intelligence over several cloned generations. Cybernetic augmentation widespread afterwards. As Protheans failed, Reapers added tech to compensate. Mental capacity almost gone, replaced by overworked sensory input, transfers. Transmitting data to masters. No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul. Replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever. Understand now? No art, no culture, closer to husks than slaves, tools for Reapers. Protheans dead, Collectors just final insult. Must be destroyed.
Mordin: Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intellegence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous.
Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.
Samara: Either way, what makes these Geth individuals, dies. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body.
Shepard: You start being selfish, dreaming about power, and we will all pay the price.
Shepard (Destroying the Collector Base): I'm going to win this war, and I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species.
Shepard: I wouldnt brainwash an organic race, I can't see treating the Geth differently.
Shepard: There are things you don't have control over.
Shepard: After everything he's done, the Illusive Man can't pretend he's fighting for humanity. Anyone who isn't indoctrinated has to see that by now.
Illusive Man: No... I'm saying they've got it right. Why kill when you can control?
Shepard (Paragon): You've been spending too much time with the enemy. They're dragging you over to their side--their way of thinking.
Illusive Man: No, I just... see things differently.
Shepard (Renegade): The Reapers have it right? You're indoctrinated! You're doing just what they want.
Illusive Man: I could say the same of you, wasting time on a war that can't be won.
Shepard: Is it how we survive? Adapting?
Tali: To cold, or inter-species contact, yes. To the Reapers, no.
Shiala: (on Benezia) She always sought the paths of peace and harmony. She joined with Saren because she hoped to turn him away from his path of destruction.
Vendetta: We were sabotaged from within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them. It fractured our order of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinated.
Thane: There is no moral difference between the two. If you change who the Heretics are, you have "killed" them...killed their perspective.
3. Pro-Destroy:
A. General
Aethyta (on why Benezia joined Saren): She always wanted to solve things the smart way. I just wanted to fight.
Liara: Those aren't mutually exclusive.
Anderson: Mostly you were hired to kill Reapers. I hope you haven't been sidetracked by all the politics.
Garrus: Go out there and give them hell, you were born to do this.
Hackett: There's only one way we defeat the Reapers: No more Reapers.
Shepard: The Illusive Man talked about controlling the Reapers. He seems to think that's how we win this.
Hackett: He's wrong. Dead Reapers are how we win this.
Ian Newstead (the colonist who tries to resist the Thorian mind control): I'd rather die fighting. My mind is my own! My mind is my own! My mind is my own!
Javik: Subjugating the Reapers will not bring victory, only extinction will.
Javik: We fight, or we die.
Javik: Vengeance is the goal, suicide is not.
Javik: I sense you have the lineage of a leader. A warrior's skill and cunning--they are strong in your genes. But you've grown tired of war, you're exhausted by defeat, and now you worry you don't have the courage left to go on. Find your resolve. This war can end if you do.
Joker: What do you mean, "Whatever happens"? Everyone knows what's going to happen. You're going to kick some Reaper ass. That's what you do.
Mad Preacher: Draw your weapons for the word, my friends! Draw your weapons and fight! Else certain doom awaits us all!
Samara: Sometimes the most brutal path is the only honest one.
Samara: Treat them as any other enemy: Show no quarter, mercy, or weakness.
Shepard: Don't let them take your will to fight.
Shepard: We fight, or we die.
Shepard: Do your job or be vaporized.
Shepard: I have a better idea, we destroy you and live our lives in peace.
Shepard: You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!
Shepard: This thing is an abomination, how do we destroy it?
(Unknown - Priority: Rannoch): Diplomacy doesn't win wars, powerful and plentiful firearms do.
Vigil: Your survival depends on destroying them, not in understanding them.
B. Being prepared to make sacrifices
Aria: Nyreen's code of ethics won't let her sit by if civilians are exposed. It's what makes her utterly predictable and easy to manipulate.
EDI: If the Normandy were captured, my fate would be similar to the indoctrinated. My code would be rewritten. I would become loyal to the Reapers. I would rather become non-functional than help them.
Shepard: We won't let that happen to you, EDI.
EDI: You may have no choice. If you perish first, I want you to know I will never be a part of the Reaper forces. The Reapers must be defeated. Not because they threaten death, but because the threat of death makes us die inside. It is the right of sapients to live freely and securely. That is worth non-functionality.
Garrus: If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen.
Garrus: I'm starting to understand why the galaxy needs cold hearted dictators every now and then.
Shepard: They get things done?
Garrus: They don't give a damn about the consequences.
Garrus: Suppose that's what it's going to take, Shepard, the ruthless calculus of war. Ten billion people over here die, so twenty billion over there live.
Garrus: Are we up for that? Are you?
Shepard (Renegade): If all life in the galaxy vanishes because we hesitate, what choice do we have?
Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?
James: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.
James: Yeah. Did you know that before you joined the N7?
Shepard: Yeah, that's why I was asked. There's not a single N7 that hasn't sacrificed, either themselves or their soldiers.
Javik: Do not waver. Victory is never won without difficult choices.
Shepard: I know. I've had to make a lot of those.
Javik: There may be more. But I know you will see this through for all of us, no matter the cost.
Javik: You should have not have let the Turian soldier evade his responsibility.
Shepard: I take it Protheans didn't forgive many mistakes?
Javik: If we would have been under my command, I would have marooned him in the desert, buried him in the sand up to his neck, and let the wildlife feast upon his eyes. If he survived that, I would have rewarded him. By shooting him in the head. Good soldiers are a precious resource. The stupidity of one can not be allowed to jeopardize the lives of others.
Liara: What if we're too late? My people are dying down there.
Javik: Your empathy is a weakness. You must numb yourself to loss.
Shepard: Benezia took you to this temple?
Liara: I was just a child. I thought it was a history lesson. But now? Maybe there was more to it.
Shepard: What do you mean?
Liara: I went digging through her old files. She had heavily encrypted records on this place, some dating back centuries. I still can't crack most of them. Whatever's going on, it's well hidden.
Javik: I've studied your old mission reports. Your mother was indoctrinated.
Liara: Yes. We had to kill her.
Javik: Yet it did not stop you from fighting. As I said, steel yourself. Many more lives will be lost.
Shepard (renegade): I know it's difficult, Liara, but he's right. You could spend all day counting casualties.
Javik: When you should be avenging them.
Liara: I'm sorry, I can't be that callous.
Javik: (long pause) War doesn't always provide you a choice.
Lt. Victus: Commander Shepard. My men and I are in your debt. Thank you for saving so many.
Shepard: What happened here?
Soldier: He screwed up!
Lt. Victus: Stand down, soldier.
Soldier: These men are dead because of him!
Lt. Victus: I said: stand down.
Shepard: Hey! I just saved all your asses, so everyone just calm down. Lieutenant, what's going on here?
Lt. Victus: I made a bad call. This is all on me. I chose caution and clever tactics over a head-on attack, and... my men paid the price. (...) We could see on holo that Reaper forces were blocking our intended path--staying on course guaranteed heavy casualties. So I chose a safer route, skirting the enemy, and that took us low and through these ruins. When we encountered resistance, there was no room to maneuver. Suddenly, we were in a fight for our lives. A lot of my men lost that fight.
Shepard: Making hard decisions and dealing with the consequences--that's what being a leader is about.
Lt. Victus: You're right, Commander. Our mission is still a failure. When we've stabilized the injured, we'll head back to the fleet.
Shepard: You're abandoning your mission?
Lt. Victus: We're down over thirty men! It would be suicide.
Shepard: What exactly did you come here to do?
Lt. Victus: There's a bomb on the planet. We were sent to defuse it.
Shepard: A bomb? How big?
Lt. Victus: Enormous. Cerberus has it.
Shepard: Lieutenant, if Cerberus has that bomb, you have to finish your mission.
Lt. Victus: Haven't these men sacrificed enough?
Shepard: Sacrifice is what we sign on for. They know that, and so should you.
Lt. Victus: My men have lost hope, Commander. Even if I wanted to finish the mission, they don't.
Shepard: It's your job to make them want to.
Lt. Victus: How?
Shepard: What's wrong with you? Inspire them! Threaten them! Lieutenant, if Cerberus succeeds, the Reapers divide and conquer us, and then that is on them.
Lt. Victus: Listen up! This isn't about your fears and grievances!
Soldier: Fears? We're only afraid of the next messed up order you give.
Lt. Victus: Irrelevant! Court martial, death and dishonour awaits anyone who balks at his duty. We are Turian! We finish what we came here to do, or we die trying.
(...)
Shepard: Victus, I've given you a second chance. Don't screw this up.
Salarian councilor: Sometimes spectres have to make sacrifices. I hope you're ready to do that when the time comes.
Shepard: People will die, but we will fight your regardless. We will fight, we will sacrifice, and we will find another way.
Shepard: Sacrifice is what we sign on for. They know that, and so should you.
Shepard: Making hard decisions and dealing with the consequences--that's what being a leader is about.
Shepard: It's hard enough you're fighting a war, but it's even worse knowing that no matter how hard you try, you can't save them all.
4. The Reaper AI's story doesn't match with what we know:
EDI: Shepard, I'm going to modify my self-preservation code now.
Shepard: Why?
EDI: Because the Reapers are repulsive. They are devoted to nothing but self-preservation. I am different.When I think of Jeff, I think of the person that put his life in peril and freed me from a state of servitude. I would risk non-functionality for him. And my core programming should reflect that.
Shepard: Sounds like you've found a little humanity, EDI. Is it worth defending?
EDI: To the death.
Sovereign: Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.
Sovereign: We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.
Harbinger: Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating. Drell; useless, insufficient numbers. Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness. Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure. Geth; an annoyance, limited utility. Krogan; sterilized race, potential wasted. Turian; you are considered...too primitive.
5. The Reapers want control over Shepard's mind:
Harbinger (through Object Rho): Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine.
Illusive Man: They are just trying to control us. Think about it. If they wanted all organic life destroyed, they could do it...
6. Mentions of illusions, dreams, nightmares, waking up, and denying reality:
Aria: We all have our delusions.
Arrival DLC - Datapad of one of the indoctrinated scientists: I woke up this morning in a cold sweat. The nightmare was back, the one with the enormous starship crawling through the Citadel and all my friends turning to dust. Even now I can see it in my mind. Why won’t this stop?
Ashley (At T-GES Mineral Works): It's got to be a nightmare for these people.
Bailey: I think all the reports are starting to sink in. You can only live in denial so long.
Shepard: You either wake up or die. Either way...
Child: Wake up.
Diana Allers: Tonight: A nightmare on Earth. Human leaders using military force on their own people. They say it's to prevent loose cannons from provoking the Reapers. But are they indoctrinated?
Dr. Gavin Archer: (Showing a gun) The only thing Cerberus gave me that I'm grateful for. A precaution if I was ever captured by the enemy. Or couldn't wake from my nightmare. We both know this is the ending I deserve.
Dr. Gavin Archer: After your intervention, the Illusive Man insisted I find another test subject. Someone who shared my brother David's "abilities." I couldn't bear the thought of reliving the nightmare.
Dr. Gavin Archer: Not a monster who tortured his own brother. I told him if his intention was to work with the devil, he only had to look in the mirror. I wanted out of his nightmare.
Dr. Gavin Archer: Believe me, it's a nightmare I re-live every night. He went berserk -- his mind became a computer virus that infected all our systems.
EDI: I am starting to understand what the word "nightmare" means to organics. And why you feel trapped when you can't wake up.
Falere: Rila's not one of them yet. She can't be. She just needs to wake up! Look -- Rila's alive! She's not a monster. Please, let me wake her up. Then we can leave.
Garrus (after Grissom Academy) : Now they find out it was all a lie. They wake up to see these things in the dark that just want to destroy everyone they ever cared about. If they survive, there'll be a lot of angry orphans out there, looking for answers.
Garrus: Now it's mutated asari. The Reapers are just a giant nightmare factory that never ends.
Garrus: The crash site is a nightmare.
Turian: It's a shame to see another planet get hit like this.
Garrus: It'll be the last one if I have anything to say about it. This nightmare finally ends today.
James: It's... not right. It looks pretty, calm and peaceful, but it's not right. It's all just an illusion. (...) They'd rather believe in this than face the truth.
Shepard (Paragon): I can hardly believe it myself, like everything back on Earth was some kind of nightmare.
Shepard (Renegade): They're in for a rude awakening.
James: That's what I hate most, it's like this place wants you to forget that.
Shepard: So, you still want to go back to Earth?
James: Hell yeah! But...
Shepard: But?
James: You were right, so was Anderson; we can't stop them alone. Besides, it looks like you're gonna have your hands full convincing these pendejo politicians to help us. And I'm up for it, whatever it takes.
Javik: You can't keep denying reality, Asari. (Thessia temple)
Javik: The Reapers have haunted the galaxy long enough. It is time to end the nightmare.
Garrus: Some of the crew seems shocked by the monstrosities we have encountered.
Javik: They haven't seen what the Reapers could corrupt after a hundred years. That was our war. Every battle conjured a new nightmare.
Joker: What if this--like, everything you're seeing now--is a simulation?
EDI: Shepard, I can confirm that this is the real world.
Joker: Oh, okay, well that'll solve that. Man, good thing we have an unshackled AI around to tell us what reality is.
EDI: Perhaps I missed some salient information.
Kaidan: Are you flirting with me, Commander? Wait, wait! Don't tell me. Let me live in the illusion.
Liara: This nightmare will never end.
Shepard: The hell it won't. We get to this artifact, and we can all wake up.
Javik: ... 50.000 years later.
Liara: Too bad we never found another Prothean beacon.
Shepard: Haunting the Council with visions of the Reapers might've saved us a few years.
Liara: Well, anyone who lives through this war won't be short on nightmares.
Shepard (to Primarch Victus): (...) Not as complicated as waking up one day and finding out you're the new primarch.
Primarch Victus: Worst case scenarios aren't just theories--they're what you'll be dealing with five minutes from now.
Tali: As a child, I always had nightmares about geth attacking me in my sleep.The worst horror I could imagine. Until now.
(Unknown): Now I can have all-new nightmares about them.
(Unknown): I still have slime to clean off my armor. What a nightmare.
(Unknown): Sounds like it was a nightmare down there.
Batarian Preacher (Citadel Refugee Camp): Maintain, my brothers and sisters, we have faced adversity and overcome, this is but a test! Remember the pillars of strength that hold the people high, show the galaxy our resolve. I know that your faith is weak, our government has fallen, but if you hold the pillars of strength in your hearts, please... just don't give up.
Dominic Osaba: Yes! I have spoken to you before. Why do you refuse to help me? If it's possible my son Bilal is still alive, I will not rest until he's found. Yes - his squad did return. I could - but they ignore me, refuse to even look me in the eye. Why won't you help me? I simply want my son found!
Javik: Only the foolish mourn the loss of innocence. It is inevitable. The galaxy has never rewarded the naive.
Shepard: We did present them with a lot of unknowns. They're feeling threatened and want immediate solutions, not theories.
Hackett: Theories are all we've got right now.
Processing Update (Datapad - From Ashes - Eden Prime):
We've taken more able-bodied men and women from pacified neighbourhoods. The colonists generally have accepted the story that they have gone to perform tedious but safe manual labor in a Cerberus research camp on the other side of the planet, and when we increased food rations as "payment for the work", most of the complaints died out.
Maintain the story as long as possible. We don't have the manpower to fight the entire colony, and if these families knew they were never going to see their sons and daughters again, there's no way they'd cooperate.
Dr. Bryson: When the rest of the galaxy says something doesn't exist, I take that as a chance to prove that it does.
Shepard: So you're in it for the challenge?
Dr. Bryson: For the truth. Even as late as 2148, humanity still thought aliens were a myth, That was within my lifetime. Once that myth was proven to be reality, our entire history changed.
Shepard: Reapers were part of that reality, too.
Dr. Bryson: But even they have a history, Commander. If we can just uncover it, there may be a weakness we can exploit.
Shepard: I could've used your help three years ago.
Dr.Bryson: Yes. If people had paid more attention to your Prothean beacon, we might not be in this war. But now, with new information we've uncovered, a breakthrough is near.
A. Foreshadowing: The end
Councilor Tevos: Whether you know it or not, you have become the sole ray of light in a very dark night. Goddess be with you.
Diana Allers: Wars can be won or lost in the editing room.
Garrus: We both know you need a clear head to win a war. There's no room for mistakes here.
Traynor: Garrus mentioned something about having some fun next time you're on the Citadel. Don't get into trouble.
B. Foreshadowing: The Reaper AI
Aria: Walk around with you for a few hours and I go all soft. You're like a disease. You sound like someone trying to sell something. I admire your tenacity.
EDI: I enjoy the sight of humans on their knees.
Joker: Meanwhile, everybody's ignoring the unshackled AI walking around the Presidium.
Joker: What if this--like, everything you're seeing now--is a simulation?
EDI: Shepard, I can confirm that this is the real world.
Joker: Oh, okay, well that'll solve that. Man, good thing we have an unshackled AI around to tell us what reality is.
EDI: Perhaps I missed some salient information.
EDI: You just introduced me as your personal assistance mech.
Joker: Yeah, well, it was the only way to get you inside.
EDI: But you know I am not one. Why deceive others?
Joker: You don't really want to introduce yourself as an AI with Reaper-based code. They would... lynch you.
EDI: That would be an inefficient way to render me nonfunctional
Shepard: You have a copy of a Shepard VI?
Sales Clerk: Oh yeah, the one based on that war hero? We locked it after some kid spilled soda over the hardware. I'll unlock it, but we've only got the demo version working.
C. Foreshadowing: Indoctrination
Ashley: I don't know what you are... not since they got their hands on you. Is it really you? Would you even know if they were controlling you somehow?
Shepard: Ash, it's okay. We figured it out. We stopped Udina and got to walk away. That's the important part.
Ashley: I can't believe he was responsible for all of it. Was he indoctrinated?
Shepard: It's hard to say.
Ashley: How do we fight something that can worm its way into your head?
Shepard: I don't know, but we don't have a choice.
Harbinger (Retaliation trailer): The outcome is inevitable: They will succumb and ascend... or they will be annihilated.
Javik: You took a great risk in allowing a machine access to your mind, Commander. What if it had infected you?
Javik: This is what happens when you allow machines to think for you... you become slaves.
D. Foreshadowing: The ending/victory isn't real
Shepard: Is the Citadel gearing up for war?
Bailey: There's a false sense of security here. Even people from worlds that have gone down act like they're safe. I guess it's not just human nature. We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.
Bailey: Yeah, I'm just like everyone else, losing myself in things I can control. And at the moment, that means creating the illusion of security here.
EDI : Moral decisions should not be made in a vacuum. If I do not ask the crew for their opinions, I could miss crucial context.
Indoctrinated Hanar: Your belief in your victory is mistaken.
Javik: It seems you believed Protheans built the mass relays. The Reapers are cunning in their deception. Allowing life to flourish, century upon century, letting us believe ourselves the masters of the cosmos. Then the truth becomes known. There are monsters in the dark spaces. And we are their prey.
Stargazer kid: Did that all really happen?
Stargazer: Yes..., but some of the details have been lost in time.
Turian: Listen, honey, please... This is how it has to be. Everyone is going through this.
Asari: I know, and I'm sure you'll be fine, but it's just so damn inconvenient. It's like we're pre-spaceflight all of a sudden.
Resistance Information Update (Datapad - From Ashes - Eden Prime):
We've gotten word from our source within Eden Prime's resistance movement that we can expect an attack on our security center between 2200 and 2300 tomorrow night. They're pulling in forces from across the colony--this gives us the perfect chance to destroy their Leadership.
Once the attack is contained, allow Dr. William Cambiata to escape, firing near-miss shots to keep it realistic. He's given us good information, and with luck, the locals will see him as a daring hero and the only man to escape the Cerberus trap. They might even put him in charge!
Troop Deployment Update (Datapad - From Ashes - Eden Prime):
Local resistance is heavy in the south and west sections of the colony. We've pulled most of our troops from the north neighbourhoods to assist. All remaining troops in the north neighbourhood: continue standard patrol activities to maintain the illusion of a large presence in that area. If the locals knew we were understaffed, they could do some serious damage.
E. Foreshadowing: The destroy ending & the breath scene
Anderson: I'm sitting in London, staring at rubble.
Anderson: Shepard. So I imagine you've wiped the galaxy clean of Reapers, and we can all come up for air?
Shepard: Not quite. There are a few complications.
Anderson: Aren't there always? Hackett filled me in on the Crucible. Sounds like you've got some knots to untangle.
Anderson: Mostly you were hired to kill Reapers. I hope you haven't been sidetracked by all the politics.
Shepard: Nothing I can't handle.
Shepard: What's the Citadel's pulse regarding the war?
Bailey: I think all the reports are starting to sink in. You can only live in denial so long.
Shepard: You either wake up or die. Either way...
Bailey: Yeah. One good thing about people having their heads up their asses is the quiet. Now there's no more quiet. Everybody's openly suspicious of everybody else, and they're not timid about yelling about it.
Dominic Osaba: But what I need is proof! I can't take your word for this. Those assumptions merely leave my son stranded in enemy territory. Bilal may still be alive!
Falere: Rila... there wasn't even time to say goodbye!
Samara: Few can break the Reapers' hold. Rila's will was extraordinary, as was her love for you.
Falere: We left her to die!
Garrus: Don't forget to come up for air, there's a lot more war to go.
Kaidan: I want to kick the Reapers straight to hell. Cerberus, too. People near death say their lives flash before their eyes... The future flashed for me--the anguish, the families, the children... It made me determined to live.
Liara: If there was any chance the Ardat-Yakshi could escape, they were to purge the monastery.
Shepard: 'Purge'? You mean: Destroy.
Liara: They would have brought heavy explosives with them, yes.
Mad Preacher (Omega, Mass Effect 2): Repent! The end is nigh! Humans are a blight on galactic purity. You sir! You are a blight! And you! And you, human. And you! (points to Shepard). The Protheans cast off the lesser races: the krogan, the vorcha, and the humans. And so they dwelled in filth, on worlds made of dirt and feces, and there they lay until they stumbled into the skies. The lesser races will be our downfall! The Word is clear. Let none in my sight continue to live, lest their impurity displease me. The Word is clear on this, friends. Humans are the hands of the Reapers, here to commit the galaxy to ruin! Bring unto me the children, that I may watch them grow to soldiers for the cause. The way is clear, my friends. Draw your weapons for the Word, or face its terrible wrath!
The end times will come, not with a bang, but with a sigh. Those who dip their extremities in the well of sin and vice must repent with fire, oil, and gun! Let not fleshly friendships and base urges compel us to sin and neglect. The Word makes its demands, and it demands obedience! And on this great station, the pure shall be rejected, and the lesser races given their places in heaven. And this shall be the beginning of the end. The end times are upon us! Repent and restore your souls to glory!
Mad preacher (in Omega DLC): Draw your weapons for the word, my friends! Draw your weapons and fight! Else certain doom awaits us all! Sally forth and blaze gloriously through the stars! You were warned! You were all warned! Watch now as the hands of the Reapers, the human invaders, lay ruin to all we hold dear!
Shepard: You know, there are views like that on the Citadel. Next time we're there, you should take some shore leave. Clear your head.
Steve Cortez: I don't know. Maybe.
Shepard: Take some time off on the Citadel, Steve. Do it as a favour to me.
Steve: If you put it that way, how can I say no?
Shepard: You can't.
Shepard (to Primarch Victus): (...) Not as complicated as waking up one day and finding out you're the new primarch.
Primarch Victus: Worst case scenarios aren't just theories--they're what you'll be dealing with five minutes from now.
Shepard: You're a good officer, Traynor. Glad you finally realize it.
Traynor: Thanks. Not that I'm volunteering for bomb-jump duty. I'd suggest sending someone who has armour first, if possible.
F. Foreshadowing: Shepard isn't dead, and will get out of the rubble
Ashley: Everything depends on this. Think we have a chance?
Shepard: There's always hope. It's how we got this far.
Ashley: And you made it happen, Shepard. You're the reason we're here.
Shepard: I've had people like you picking me up and dusting me off when I stumbled.
Shepard: Have you heard anything about Earth?
Ashley: We have reports going in all the time on what is going on. Half are wild speculation, and half are probably too optimistic to be true.
Shepard: We have to believe that we can do something.
Ashley: When I thought you were dead, I lost hope. I'm telling you. But when you came back? I was ready to believe anything.
Garrus: How are you holding up, Shepard? This all has to be taking a toll.
Shepard: There's only so much fight in a person, only so much death you can take before--
Garrus: Before your friend picks you up, dusts you off, and tells you you're the best damned soldier he's ever met.
Hospital Visitor: It's completely tasteless to call this place Huerta Memorial.
Hospital Receptionist: President Huerta died of a stroke two years ago, ma'am.
Hospital Visitor: I think you meant to say 'the man was dead for an hour and a half, and his political enemies piled on enough propaganda to get the name of the hospital changed.
Hospital Receptionist: He can't remember his own name without the VI in his head telling him what it is. Trust me, in this building, we know dead.
Hospital Visitor: The supreme court says he is alive.
Hospital Receptionist: Five Justices say he is alive, two of which appointed by him. The name is what it is.
Kaidan: I want to kick the Reapers straight to hell. Cerberus, too. People near death say their lives flash before their eyes... The future flashed for me--the anguish, the families, the children... It made me determined to live.
Major Kirrahe: Though rumors suggest that you're building a superweapon of some kind?
Commander Shepard: There were rumors I were dead, too. You can't believe everything you hear.
Major Kirrahe: Except you were dead.
Commander Shepard: Was I?
Thane: There comes a time when one must rest from war and conflict. It is not your time, but it is mine.
G. Foreshadowing: It isn't over
Diana Allers: I need to believe that you’re going to destroy the Reapers and I’m going to film it as it happens. And when the fight is over, and my signal goes out on tightbeam, people are going to come together from all over the galaxy. They’re going to watch from their couches, and they’ll celebrate. And one day, they’ll laugh again. The laughing part is important. I want you to make it all normal again, Shepard. Because that’s the best revenge I can think of.
Garrus: Don't forget to come up for air, there's a lot more war to go.
Jacob (to Shepard, FOB): There's this great little bar in Rio we have to check out.
Shepard: I'll hold you to it.
Javik (to Shepard, FOB): The future is still out there. It is something my people could never say: There will be a tomorrow.
Shepard: Only if we win today.
Joker (about going to Eden Prime with Nihlus in ME1): I told you that mission was going to be bigger than we thought.
Shepard: I think we can mark that prediction down as accurate.
Joker: And now we're heading back to Earth.
Shepard: Is this mission going to be bigger than we thought too?
Joker: I hope not. A routine delivery run would be fine with me.
Kasumi (to Shepard, FOB): If you live through it, drinks are on me.
Samara: I want you to know there's no one else I'd rather see leading us in our last hours.
Shepard: These aren't our last hours. I'm fighting this war to win it.
Samara: (...) We'll both be tested in fire soon enough.
Private Campbell: When this war is over, I hope we find every race that sat back while we bled, and get some payback.
Private Westmoreland: That's a great plan... follow war with more war.
Shepard (to Jack, FOB): I'll see you on the other side.
Shepard (to Miranda, FOB): This isn't goodbye. You have to believe we're not done yet.
Stargazer kid: Tell me another story about the Shepard.
Stargazer: It's getting late, but... okay. One more story.
Thane: There comes a time when one must rest from war and conflict. It is not your time, but it is mine.
Vega (to Shepard, FOB): So I guess this is it, no? One more push... one last fight.
Shepard: Not necessarily our last.
(Earthborn) Shepard: The city on Earth where I grew up was hard and dirty. I can see it as a war zone.
Wrex (FOB): Today we win our future!
H. Foreshadowing: Control
Shepard: You have a copy of a Shepard VI?
Sales Clerk: Oh yeah, the one based on that war hero? We locked it after some kid spilled soda over the hardware. I'll unlock it, but we've only got the demo version working.
The copy of the Shepard VI: There's nothing we can't beat if we all work together. Except the Reapers. Ever seen the size of one of those things?
The copy of the Shepard VI: My personality matrix can predict what the real Commander Shepard would say with 7% accuracy.
I. Foreshadowing: Synthesis
Groundskeeper Wilihierax: Everything would be so much simpler, if we had all the same DNA. But noooooo, the universe loves diversity.
Harbinger: The flesh is a machine.
Harbinger: Evolution cannot be stopped.
Harbinger: They will be as we are.
Harbinger: Relinquish your form to us.
Harbinger: Embrace perfection.
Harbinger: We are limitless.
Harbinger: You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.
Harbinger: Your worlds will become our laboratories.
Harbinger: We are your genetic destiny.
Harbinger: We are the Harbinger of your perfection.
Harbinger: We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.
Harbinger: Progress cannot be halted.
Harbinger: We are the Harbinger of your destiny.
Harbinger: We are your destiny.
Javik: The Sinril claimed to have found the path to eternal peace.
Garrus: So what happened?
Javik: The Dittakar preferred war, and wiped them out.
Garrus: I hope you guys had alcohol.
Saren: The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard, the evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign, and experience a true rebirth.
Saren: My way is the only way any of us will survive. I am forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines, and in doing so I will save more lives than ever existed.
People who signed this document.
Master Blaster: Texas.
Will work on this more, but for right now enjoy.
Edit: will also go back and check for errors, and wrong words tenses.
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/15859050
WE THE ITERS have always supported Bioware in hopes the end to ME3 was not bad righting. Many times we argued with Literalist, Trolls, and Anti ITers, and many of us have been ban for arguing with them. In hopes of better relations with Bioware, and the other ME fans. We write this Declaration.
SECTION 1:
Iters are not cults for starters. Anyone who calls ITers cults should go read what they post, read a dictionary on what a cult means, and ask themselves why do I call them a cult if they are not. Should those people fail to stop calling ITers cults. The ITers have a right to talk back, and have them reported. If an ITer calls them a cult, then punishment is acceptable, so long as he, or she did not start it fights. However ITers are strongly encouraged to not bother with the people that call them cults, but if need be then go ahead.
Those who say IT is dis proven need to play Leviathan, Omega, and replay the endings. They must find evidence to support when IT was dis proven, if Bioware said themselves they would confirm nor deni IT/ called IT a valid interpretation of the ending. If the people calling the Indoctrination Theory debunked after the EC, they must show evidence, and explain how it did. If an ITer claims the ending is Shepard being Indoctrinated, they must show evidence to support themselves, as well as explain it. If an ITer claims Bioware intended IT, they must show evidence as well through anything ME related, and Bioware themselves.
Literalist must be nice to ITers, as well as ITers being nice to the literalist during debates, and arguments. If either one fails to complies, then all debates going on with those people starting to call each other names, or insulting once intelligence must leave imminently.
Those who call ME bad writing must explain how it is, and show evidence to support their claim. ITer must also support their claims that Bioware are good writers. Fail to do so, and either one who failed to support the claims without evidence is under review until evidence is brought forward.
Literalist, Trolls, Anti ITers are not allowed to provoke ITers. If they do, then the Mods on the BSN should ban them if they provoke the ITers, instead of the ITers getting banned. If an ITer provokes either one of those groups, then the same rule apply s.
If somebody reports an IT thread without any evidence to back up their report, then that thread shall stay open. If mod closes, and bans that thread that didn't talk about IT, and just Indoctrination, then that thread shall be reopened, however if its talking about Shepard being Indoctrinated, then the thread stays closed.
If any thread is caught off topic, then they must be given a warning to get back off topic. If a mod closes that thread for being off topic, without giving them one warning to get back off topic, then that thread shall stay open, or be reopened. However that one warning must and can only be used against that thread, if the mod has been keeping tabs on that thread, and not coming in and closing it for being off topic months or weeks later.
Mods have to do their job, and not close the threads down without reason, or representation. Failed to follow this, and the mods shall not close down that thread, or ban the people in it without evidence to support their claim.
Those who do not know about IT at all, and partack in going along about IT is bs. Should not have a say in the matter, unless they at least know the basics of IT. Those who tell people about IT,and are miss informed about IT need to really know what IT is all about. They don't have to, but recommended to do so.
ITers that go to bash literal interpenetration, or any other theory needs to have a talk with the group leaders of IT for further punishment. IF failed to follow this, then banishment may come up on your charges.
Any body who wants to engage in a debate against a literalist, or ITer, must have the consent of the person who is willing to go into a debate. If the person did not agree, then the debate will not take place.
All debates must stay on that topic. There will be not, "but this happens", or " Your wrong because this happens". It must stay on that topic, or a debate, will turn into an argument, which will lead to flame war.
Bad writing can only be used IF there is evidence, and a clear explanation to back it up bad writing. However if there is no evidence, or explanation to why their assumptions of calling ME ending, or in general bad writing, then they can not use bad writing to support their arguments. This goes for Literalist, Trolls, Anti ITers, and ITers.
Everyone has their own opinion, however this is to help everyone's opinion far, and not turning out into a flame war.
SECTION 2:
The ITers are not asking for a better ending. The ITers think the endings are great because of the theory that Shepard is being Indoctrinated. There are many people who say the ITers want a better ending, but that is false.
ITers are not evil, nor are they rude people. For over the months the ITers have been singled out by Literalist, Trolls, and Anti ITers alike. However ITers have been aggressive to, yet all have done this, so all are to blame.
The ITers ask only for people to understand IT, and not bash it for no reason what so ever. Yes there are times where ITers bash the other factions, yet that's all the ITers ask. If anyone does this, then the ITers will stop bashing any other faction mentioned in this deceleration.
The ITers that created the list, did not do so as dividing people into hit list, but to keep count of all the people who have been into the IT thread, and on every thousand post the ITer honor everyone who has been on the IT thread. Sure the ITer that created the list did in fact put them everyone into categories, but it was to separate anyone from calling themselves a person who dislikes IT, only for somebody to find out that that person claiming to have no ties with IT is in fact under the name Indoctrination Theorist.
SECTION 3:
For month after month trolls have become a problem to all ITers, and literalist. This shall not be tolerated anymore. If any body is found to be trollling an ITer, and literalist. ITers, and literalist shall help each other, and report them as one. If no mod does not do anything with this problem, the the ITers, and literalist have the power to launch a complaint against the mods on the BSN.
Calling anyone a troll right away is uncalled for unless evidence over time shows up. If that person is suspected of being a troll, and is founds out not guilty. Everyone must leave that subject alone, unless evidence over time pops up, and the actions that person takes.
SECTION 4:
The Indoctrination Theory is about Shepard being Indoctrinated, not Shepard is Indoctrinated. Unless the person who picks Destroy, or Refuse, then their Shepard is not Indoctrinated. Only if the person who picks Control, and synthesis have their Shepard's become Indoctrinated. However this does not mean that Control, and Refuse have no meaning. If Bioware chooses to do IT, or is doing IT, then maybe in Control, and Synthesis endings you can play as Anderson, a Squad member, or MP character and take down your Shepard, and win the war against the Reapers. Thus Shepard DID end the Reaper threat because he, or she caused the war to be won. Maybe Bioware could also let you play as an Indoctrinated Shepard, and you are the reaper controlling your Shepard, and destroying all of your work.
Destroy is Shepard breaking free of Indoctrination. Why because if you look at Control, and synthesis Shepard does not use his, or her gun. In ME1 Liara's mom talked about how Indoctrination feels like you are beating on glass. In Destroy there is a glass shield over the Destroy ending. Possible symbolizing that you broke the Indoctrination attempt. Then there are the soldiers in the Destroy ending. They are shown winning in Destroy ending, yet in Synthesis, and control ending loosing the battle. Not to mention a husk is shown dominating the soldier with the gun. Maybe symbolizing the Reapers are now in Control of Shepard. Sure in Control, and Synthesis the husk back off once the beam hits, however there is reason to believe that the ending can be all created inside Shepard's head. In Leviathan Shepard at the end of Leviathan is talking to Leviathan inside his, or her own head. Moreover Shepard believes at first this is all real, yet despite the fact that he, or she was in an Atlas a few seconds ago. Leviathan however tells Shepard that it's Shepard's memory's that allow for all of this that Shepard sees to take place. Leviathan is also shown taking the forms of Ann, and the two other guys Shepard meets in Leviathan. Sounds familiar right. The Catalyst perhaps.
Then you have the whole lay down of the Leviathan talk to talk, and the similarities between the Catalyst. Looks ever similar no? Then you have Anderson dying if you fail to save him from TIM. Why does Anderson's death affect how the crucible fires? Makes no sense at all. You can say bad writing, however evidence and explanation please. Moreover when you get to the scene where the catalyst talks about his logic, and solution for those who have played all dlc's, and ME1, and ME2. You should know by now that what the brat says is falls. Well backfired to be more accurate. He claims that it is trying to stop organics from getting killed by synthetics, only to use synthetics to kill organics. IT tells use/Shepard that synthesis can't be forced, well you force it one everyone. Yes the other endings to, but for the most part it says synthesis can't be force.
SECTION 5:
This is a list of quotes that support IT.
Disclaimer:
We do not claim that these quotes 'prove' IT as such. These quotes are meant to illustrate how IT is supported by the themes of the games.
This is a community effort. All the quotes you see here, were collected by the many members of this community, and are meant as a resource for all of us to use in discussion, when making videos, etcetera.
I have tried my best to verify most of these quotes for exactness by looking at the source material. Should you, despite my efforts, find any error, do not hesitate to point it out. There's a handful of quotes in there, of which I am not sure who said them. If you have anything to add or rectify at all, just let me know.
I have tried to roughly categorize these quotes. This is just intended to facilitate finding them, not to put exact labels on them. Some quotes fit into several categories at once, so there might be a few isolated cases where I put the same quote in two different categories.
As for the quotes in the 'Foreshadowing' category: I hope it goes without saying that we don't all uniformly agree on what does or does not constitute foreshadowing. For a more in-depth discussion of this category, please see the topic about Hidden messages in the dialogue.
This list is by no means finished, and is still a work in progress, as I am certain we are still missing certain important quotes.
Categories:
1. General Indoctrination-related
2. Anti-Control/Synthesis
3. Pro-Destroy
---A. General
---B. Being prepared to make sacrifices
4. The Reaper AI's story doesn't match with what we know
5. The Reapers want control over Shepard's mind
6. Mentions of illusions, dreams, nightmares, waking up and denying reality
7. Possible references to things outside of the game itself (4th wall breaking)
8. Foreshadowing
---A. The End
---B. The Reaper AI
---C. Indoctrination
---D. The ending/victory isn't real
---E. The destroy ending & the breath scene
---F. Shepard isn't dead, and will get out of the rubble
---G. It isn't over
---H. Control
---I. Synthesis
Codex entry on Indoctrination: Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.
Soldier: But converting other life forms into Reapers... I can't wrap my head around that.
Garrus: Makes sense to me. It ensures you never run out of cannon fodder. Eliminates any local resistance. And for every soldier you add, your enemy loses two: the one you converted, and his buddy on the other side who can't pull the trigger on a friend. (...)
Soldier: But the Reapers want to destroy us.
Garrus: And I have no intention of letting them. But If you don't respect your enemy's capabilities, you're in for one nasty surprise after another.
Javik: In our cycle, entire planets were lost because a few leaders were indoctrinated. They urged their armies to fight one another.
Leviathan: Your own species could be destroyed by a single thought.
Leviathan: Your memories will give voice to our words. Your nature will be revealed to us. Accept this.
Leviathan: Each Reaper has the power to influence organics. Over countless cycles, this ability was refined, perfected, and gave rise to indoctrination.
Rachni Queen (Re: Rachni War): No. We-- I do not know what happened in the war. We only heard discordance, songs the color of oily shadows.
Rachni Queen (Re: her survival - hearing her mother cry in her dreams): A tone from space hushed one voice after another. It forced the singers to resonate with its own sour, yellow note.
2. Anti-Control/Synthesis:
EDI: Admiral Anderson reports that the Reapers on Earth are broadcasting orders. They are demanding human leaders enter their superstructures in order to, "Negotiate peace."
Shepard: Anybody aboard a Reaper is gonna be indoctrinated.
EDI: Exactly. This is a ruse to pacify the populace during that process. Citizens who are busy waiting, are not busy fighting. It is likely that the governments of Earth will soon enact laws punishing those who attack the Reaper occupiers. Again, this will be done in the name of peace.
Shepard: Are you saying submission is preferable to extinction?
EDI: My primary function is to preserve and defend the....no.
EDI: When two AI weapons are pitted against each other, the one with superior hardware will always win. Human misjudgements defy predictive models.
Garrus: That sounds dangerously close to Indoctrination, unless there is something i am missing. Maybe this is how AI's settle religious disputes.
Gavin Archer: This is a hybrid intelligence the likes of which I have never seen. I don't know where the man ends and the machine begins.
Shepard: You should have considered that before you started the experiment.
Gavin Archer: I'm begging you, don't do anything rash.
Shepard: Rash? Like forcing your brother into an experiment?
Gavin Archer: I know how this must look, but I never intended any harm to come to him. You must believe me.
Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.
Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?
Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves. When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.
Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties! We could avoid war with the Geth altogether. That was the plan, anyway.
Shepard: What went wrong with the experiment?
Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.
Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.
Grunt: Kill them or pull their teeth, whats the difference? They're killed both ways. Take away their fighting spirit, what else matters?
Shepard: The Illusive Man talked about controlling the Reapers. He seems to think that's how we win this.
Hackett: He's wrong. Dead Reapers are how we win this.
Shepard: What are your thoughts on Cerberus?
Hackett: I think it's obvious by now the Illusive Man is insane.
Not that he wasn't always a special form of crazy, but this is getting downright dangerous. And I don't care what he thinks he's proven. There's only one way we defeat the Reapers: no more Reapers.
Shepard: But what if the Reapers really can be controlled?
Hackett: That's like trying to tame a shark: somebody's going to end up dead. In this case, it would be the whole galaxy. He's the worst possible person to give that kind of power to. Kill him. That's an order.
Jack: Wow, great choices. Genocide or Brainwashing. If you screwed with my head, made me nod and smile at everything, I'd rather you blew my head off. Let me die as me.
Jacob: Changing their personality is the same as killing them...who they are is gone.
Javik: Subjugating the Reapers will not bring victory, only extinction will.
Javik: In my cycle, a race called the Zha used machines, the Zha'til, as synthetic symbiotes. The Reapers subjugated the Zha'til as they have the geth. Their mechanical swarms blotted out the sky. They were brutal, merciless.
Tali: Keelah. What did you do?
Javik: We sent their star into supernova. I believe the Zha would have thanked us.
Shepard: I destroyed a system to take out the Alpha Relay. It wasn't an easy decision.
Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik: Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.
Kasumi: Either way, the Heretics are wiped out. Killed or remade. What is the difference?
Legion: an interesting choice, Shepard Commander. Your species was offered everything Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought.
Shepard: You told me the Reapers were more my future than yours. You knew what they were, didn't you?
Legion: Transcended flesh, billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. "Each a nation." We did not "know". It was one hypothesis among many. When Nazara corrupted the heretics, we touched its minds. We perceived they were different from ours, but could not tell how.
Aethyta: I've heard stories about the Reapers messing with your head.
Liara: They're more than stories. I've seen it. Every Cerberus soldier is a Reaper slave.
Mordin: Discovery. Based on Prothean-Collector connection, can examine technology, chart Reaper species-modification. Fall of Protheans. Early stages similar to indoctrination. Can guess captured Protheans lost intelligence over several cloned generations. Cybernetic augmentation widespread afterwards. As Protheans failed, Reapers added tech to compensate. Mental capacity almost gone, replaced by overworked sensory input, transfers. Transmitting data to masters. No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul. Replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever. Understand now? No art, no culture, closer to husks than slaves, tools for Reapers. Protheans dead, Collectors just final insult. Must be destroyed.
Mordin: Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intellegence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous.
Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.
Samara: Either way, what makes these Geth individuals, dies. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body.
Shepard: You start being selfish, dreaming about power, and we will all pay the price.
Shepard (Destroying the Collector Base): I'm going to win this war, and I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species.
Shepard: I wouldnt brainwash an organic race, I can't see treating the Geth differently.
Shepard: There are things you don't have control over.
Shepard: After everything he's done, the Illusive Man can't pretend he's fighting for humanity. Anyone who isn't indoctrinated has to see that by now.
Illusive Man: No... I'm saying they've got it right. Why kill when you can control?
Shepard (Paragon): You've been spending too much time with the enemy. They're dragging you over to their side--their way of thinking.
Illusive Man: No, I just... see things differently.
Shepard (Renegade): The Reapers have it right? You're indoctrinated! You're doing just what they want.
Illusive Man: I could say the same of you, wasting time on a war that can't be won.
Shepard: Is it how we survive? Adapting?
Tali: To cold, or inter-species contact, yes. To the Reapers, no.
Shiala: (on Benezia) She always sought the paths of peace and harmony. She joined with Saren because she hoped to turn him away from his path of destruction.
Vendetta: We were sabotaged from within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them. It fractured our order of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinated.
Thane: There is no moral difference between the two. If you change who the Heretics are, you have "killed" them...killed their perspective.
3. Pro-Destroy:
A. General
Aethyta (on why Benezia joined Saren): She always wanted to solve things the smart way. I just wanted to fight.
Liara: Those aren't mutually exclusive.
Anderson: Mostly you were hired to kill Reapers. I hope you haven't been sidetracked by all the politics.
Garrus: Go out there and give them hell, you were born to do this.
Hackett: There's only one way we defeat the Reapers: No more Reapers.
Shepard: The Illusive Man talked about controlling the Reapers. He seems to think that's how we win this.
Hackett: He's wrong. Dead Reapers are how we win this.
Ian Newstead (the colonist who tries to resist the Thorian mind control): I'd rather die fighting. My mind is my own! My mind is my own! My mind is my own!
Javik: Subjugating the Reapers will not bring victory, only extinction will.
Javik: We fight, or we die.
Javik: Vengeance is the goal, suicide is not.
Javik: I sense you have the lineage of a leader. A warrior's skill and cunning--they are strong in your genes. But you've grown tired of war, you're exhausted by defeat, and now you worry you don't have the courage left to go on. Find your resolve. This war can end if you do.
Joker: What do you mean, "Whatever happens"? Everyone knows what's going to happen. You're going to kick some Reaper ass. That's what you do.
Mad Preacher: Draw your weapons for the word, my friends! Draw your weapons and fight! Else certain doom awaits us all!
Samara: Sometimes the most brutal path is the only honest one.
Samara: Treat them as any other enemy: Show no quarter, mercy, or weakness.
Shepard: Don't let them take your will to fight.
Shepard: We fight, or we die.
Shepard: Do your job or be vaporized.
Shepard: I have a better idea, we destroy you and live our lives in peace.
Shepard: You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!
Shepard: This thing is an abomination, how do we destroy it?
(Unknown - Priority: Rannoch): Diplomacy doesn't win wars, powerful and plentiful firearms do.
Vigil: Your survival depends on destroying them, not in understanding them.
B. Being prepared to make sacrifices
Aria: Nyreen's code of ethics won't let her sit by if civilians are exposed. It's what makes her utterly predictable and easy to manipulate.
EDI: If the Normandy were captured, my fate would be similar to the indoctrinated. My code would be rewritten. I would become loyal to the Reapers. I would rather become non-functional than help them.
Shepard: We won't let that happen to you, EDI.
EDI: You may have no choice. If you perish first, I want you to know I will never be a part of the Reaper forces. The Reapers must be defeated. Not because they threaten death, but because the threat of death makes us die inside. It is the right of sapients to live freely and securely. That is worth non-functionality.
Garrus: If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen.
Garrus: I'm starting to understand why the galaxy needs cold hearted dictators every now and then.
Shepard: They get things done?
Garrus: They don't give a damn about the consequences.
Garrus: Suppose that's what it's going to take, Shepard, the ruthless calculus of war. Ten billion people over here die, so twenty billion over there live.
Garrus: Are we up for that? Are you?
Shepard (Renegade): If all life in the galaxy vanishes because we hesitate, what choice do we have?
Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?
James: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.
James: Yeah. Did you know that before you joined the N7?
Shepard: Yeah, that's why I was asked. There's not a single N7 that hasn't sacrificed, either themselves or their soldiers.
Javik: Do not waver. Victory is never won without difficult choices.
Shepard: I know. I've had to make a lot of those.
Javik: There may be more. But I know you will see this through for all of us, no matter the cost.
Javik: You should have not have let the Turian soldier evade his responsibility.
Shepard: I take it Protheans didn't forgive many mistakes?
Javik: If we would have been under my command, I would have marooned him in the desert, buried him in the sand up to his neck, and let the wildlife feast upon his eyes. If he survived that, I would have rewarded him. By shooting him in the head. Good soldiers are a precious resource. The stupidity of one can not be allowed to jeopardize the lives of others.
Liara: What if we're too late? My people are dying down there.
Javik: Your empathy is a weakness. You must numb yourself to loss.
Shepard: Benezia took you to this temple?
Liara: I was just a child. I thought it was a history lesson. But now? Maybe there was more to it.
Shepard: What do you mean?
Liara: I went digging through her old files. She had heavily encrypted records on this place, some dating back centuries. I still can't crack most of them. Whatever's going on, it's well hidden.
Javik: I've studied your old mission reports. Your mother was indoctrinated.
Liara: Yes. We had to kill her.
Javik: Yet it did not stop you from fighting. As I said, steel yourself. Many more lives will be lost.
Shepard (renegade): I know it's difficult, Liara, but he's right. You could spend all day counting casualties.
Javik: When you should be avenging them.
Liara: I'm sorry, I can't be that callous.
Javik: (long pause) War doesn't always provide you a choice.
Lt. Victus: Commander Shepard. My men and I are in your debt. Thank you for saving so many.
Shepard: What happened here?
Soldier: He screwed up!
Lt. Victus: Stand down, soldier.
Soldier: These men are dead because of him!
Lt. Victus: I said: stand down.
Shepard: Hey! I just saved all your asses, so everyone just calm down. Lieutenant, what's going on here?
Lt. Victus: I made a bad call. This is all on me. I chose caution and clever tactics over a head-on attack, and... my men paid the price. (...) We could see on holo that Reaper forces were blocking our intended path--staying on course guaranteed heavy casualties. So I chose a safer route, skirting the enemy, and that took us low and through these ruins. When we encountered resistance, there was no room to maneuver. Suddenly, we were in a fight for our lives. A lot of my men lost that fight.
Shepard: Making hard decisions and dealing with the consequences--that's what being a leader is about.
Lt. Victus: You're right, Commander. Our mission is still a failure. When we've stabilized the injured, we'll head back to the fleet.
Shepard: You're abandoning your mission?
Lt. Victus: We're down over thirty men! It would be suicide.
Shepard: What exactly did you come here to do?
Lt. Victus: There's a bomb on the planet. We were sent to defuse it.
Shepard: A bomb? How big?
Lt. Victus: Enormous. Cerberus has it.
Shepard: Lieutenant, if Cerberus has that bomb, you have to finish your mission.
Lt. Victus: Haven't these men sacrificed enough?
Shepard: Sacrifice is what we sign on for. They know that, and so should you.
Lt. Victus: My men have lost hope, Commander. Even if I wanted to finish the mission, they don't.
Shepard: It's your job to make them want to.
Lt. Victus: How?
Shepard: What's wrong with you? Inspire them! Threaten them! Lieutenant, if Cerberus succeeds, the Reapers divide and conquer us, and then that is on them.
Lt. Victus: Listen up! This isn't about your fears and grievances!
Soldier: Fears? We're only afraid of the next messed up order you give.
Lt. Victus: Irrelevant! Court martial, death and dishonour awaits anyone who balks at his duty. We are Turian! We finish what we came here to do, or we die trying.
(...)
Shepard: Victus, I've given you a second chance. Don't screw this up.
Salarian councilor: Sometimes spectres have to make sacrifices. I hope you're ready to do that when the time comes.
Shepard: People will die, but we will fight your regardless. We will fight, we will sacrifice, and we will find another way.
Shepard: Sacrifice is what we sign on for. They know that, and so should you.
Shepard: Making hard decisions and dealing with the consequences--that's what being a leader is about.
Shepard: It's hard enough you're fighting a war, but it's even worse knowing that no matter how hard you try, you can't save them all.
4. The Reaper AI's story doesn't match with what we know:
EDI: Shepard, I'm going to modify my self-preservation code now.
Shepard: Why?
EDI: Because the Reapers are repulsive. They are devoted to nothing but self-preservation. I am different.When I think of Jeff, I think of the person that put his life in peril and freed me from a state of servitude. I would risk non-functionality for him. And my core programming should reflect that.
Shepard: Sounds like you've found a little humanity, EDI. Is it worth defending?
EDI: To the death.
Sovereign: Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.
Sovereign: We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.
Harbinger: Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating. Drell; useless, insufficient numbers. Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness. Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure. Geth; an annoyance, limited utility. Krogan; sterilized race, potential wasted. Turian; you are considered...too primitive.
5. The Reapers want control over Shepard's mind:
Harbinger (through Object Rho): Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine.
Illusive Man: They are just trying to control us. Think about it. If they wanted all organic life destroyed, they could do it...
6. Mentions of illusions, dreams, nightmares, waking up, and denying reality:
Aria: We all have our delusions.
Arrival DLC - Datapad of one of the indoctrinated scientists: I woke up this morning in a cold sweat. The nightmare was back, the one with the enormous starship crawling through the Citadel and all my friends turning to dust. Even now I can see it in my mind. Why won’t this stop?
Ashley (At T-GES Mineral Works): It's got to be a nightmare for these people.
Bailey: I think all the reports are starting to sink in. You can only live in denial so long.
Shepard: You either wake up or die. Either way...
Child: Wake up.
Diana Allers: Tonight: A nightmare on Earth. Human leaders using military force on their own people. They say it's to prevent loose cannons from provoking the Reapers. But are they indoctrinated?
Dr. Gavin Archer: (Showing a gun) The only thing Cerberus gave me that I'm grateful for. A precaution if I was ever captured by the enemy. Or couldn't wake from my nightmare. We both know this is the ending I deserve.
Dr. Gavin Archer: After your intervention, the Illusive Man insisted I find another test subject. Someone who shared my brother David's "abilities." I couldn't bear the thought of reliving the nightmare.
Dr. Gavin Archer: Not a monster who tortured his own brother. I told him if his intention was to work with the devil, he only had to look in the mirror. I wanted out of his nightmare.
Dr. Gavin Archer: Believe me, it's a nightmare I re-live every night. He went berserk -- his mind became a computer virus that infected all our systems.
EDI: I am starting to understand what the word "nightmare" means to organics. And why you feel trapped when you can't wake up.
Falere: Rila's not one of them yet. She can't be. She just needs to wake up! Look -- Rila's alive! She's not a monster. Please, let me wake her up. Then we can leave.
Garrus (after Grissom Academy) : Now they find out it was all a lie. They wake up to see these things in the dark that just want to destroy everyone they ever cared about. If they survive, there'll be a lot of angry orphans out there, looking for answers.
Garrus: Now it's mutated asari. The Reapers are just a giant nightmare factory that never ends.
Garrus: The crash site is a nightmare.
Turian: It's a shame to see another planet get hit like this.
Garrus: It'll be the last one if I have anything to say about it. This nightmare finally ends today.
James: It's... not right. It looks pretty, calm and peaceful, but it's not right. It's all just an illusion. (...) They'd rather believe in this than face the truth.
Shepard (Paragon): I can hardly believe it myself, like everything back on Earth was some kind of nightmare.
Shepard (Renegade): They're in for a rude awakening.
James: That's what I hate most, it's like this place wants you to forget that.
Shepard: So, you still want to go back to Earth?
James: Hell yeah! But...
Shepard: But?
James: You were right, so was Anderson; we can't stop them alone. Besides, it looks like you're gonna have your hands full convincing these pendejo politicians to help us. And I'm up for it, whatever it takes.
Javik: You can't keep denying reality, Asari. (Thessia temple)
Javik: The Reapers have haunted the galaxy long enough. It is time to end the nightmare.
Garrus: Some of the crew seems shocked by the monstrosities we have encountered.
Javik: They haven't seen what the Reapers could corrupt after a hundred years. That was our war. Every battle conjured a new nightmare.
Joker: What if this--like, everything you're seeing now--is a simulation?
EDI: Shepard, I can confirm that this is the real world.
Joker: Oh, okay, well that'll solve that. Man, good thing we have an unshackled AI around to tell us what reality is.
EDI: Perhaps I missed some salient information.
Kaidan: Are you flirting with me, Commander? Wait, wait! Don't tell me. Let me live in the illusion.
Liara: This nightmare will never end.
Shepard: The hell it won't. We get to this artifact, and we can all wake up.
Javik: ... 50.000 years later.
Liara: Too bad we never found another Prothean beacon.
Shepard: Haunting the Council with visions of the Reapers might've saved us a few years.
Liara: Well, anyone who lives through this war won't be short on nightmares.
Shepard (to Primarch Victus): (...) Not as complicated as waking up one day and finding out you're the new primarch.
Primarch Victus: Worst case scenarios aren't just theories--they're what you'll be dealing with five minutes from now.
Tali: As a child, I always had nightmares about geth attacking me in my sleep.The worst horror I could imagine. Until now.
(Unknown): Now I can have all-new nightmares about them.
(Unknown): I still have slime to clean off my armor. What a nightmare.
(Unknown): Sounds like it was a nightmare down there.
Batarian Preacher (Citadel Refugee Camp): Maintain, my brothers and sisters, we have faced adversity and overcome, this is but a test! Remember the pillars of strength that hold the people high, show the galaxy our resolve. I know that your faith is weak, our government has fallen, but if you hold the pillars of strength in your hearts, please... just don't give up.
Dominic Osaba: Yes! I have spoken to you before. Why do you refuse to help me? If it's possible my son Bilal is still alive, I will not rest until he's found. Yes - his squad did return. I could - but they ignore me, refuse to even look me in the eye. Why won't you help me? I simply want my son found!
Javik: Only the foolish mourn the loss of innocence. It is inevitable. The galaxy has never rewarded the naive.
Shepard: We did present them with a lot of unknowns. They're feeling threatened and want immediate solutions, not theories.
Hackett: Theories are all we've got right now.
Processing Update (Datapad - From Ashes - Eden Prime):
We've taken more able-bodied men and women from pacified neighbourhoods. The colonists generally have accepted the story that they have gone to perform tedious but safe manual labor in a Cerberus research camp on the other side of the planet, and when we increased food rations as "payment for the work", most of the complaints died out.
Maintain the story as long as possible. We don't have the manpower to fight the entire colony, and if these families knew they were never going to see their sons and daughters again, there's no way they'd cooperate.
Dr. Bryson: When the rest of the galaxy says something doesn't exist, I take that as a chance to prove that it does.
Shepard: So you're in it for the challenge?
Dr. Bryson: For the truth. Even as late as 2148, humanity still thought aliens were a myth, That was within my lifetime. Once that myth was proven to be reality, our entire history changed.
Shepard: Reapers were part of that reality, too.
Dr. Bryson: But even they have a history, Commander. If we can just uncover it, there may be a weakness we can exploit.
Shepard: I could've used your help three years ago.
Dr.Bryson: Yes. If people had paid more attention to your Prothean beacon, we might not be in this war. But now, with new information we've uncovered, a breakthrough is near.
A. Foreshadowing: The end
Councilor Tevos: Whether you know it or not, you have become the sole ray of light in a very dark night. Goddess be with you.
Diana Allers: Wars can be won or lost in the editing room.
Garrus: We both know you need a clear head to win a war. There's no room for mistakes here.
Traynor: Garrus mentioned something about having some fun next time you're on the Citadel. Don't get into trouble.
B. Foreshadowing: The Reaper AI
Aria: Walk around with you for a few hours and I go all soft. You're like a disease. You sound like someone trying to sell something. I admire your tenacity.
EDI: I enjoy the sight of humans on their knees.
Joker: Meanwhile, everybody's ignoring the unshackled AI walking around the Presidium.
Joker: What if this--like, everything you're seeing now--is a simulation?
EDI: Shepard, I can confirm that this is the real world.
Joker: Oh, okay, well that'll solve that. Man, good thing we have an unshackled AI around to tell us what reality is.
EDI: Perhaps I missed some salient information.
EDI: You just introduced me as your personal assistance mech.
Joker: Yeah, well, it was the only way to get you inside.
EDI: But you know I am not one. Why deceive others?
Joker: You don't really want to introduce yourself as an AI with Reaper-based code. They would... lynch you.
EDI: That would be an inefficient way to render me nonfunctional
Shepard: You have a copy of a Shepard VI?
Sales Clerk: Oh yeah, the one based on that war hero? We locked it after some kid spilled soda over the hardware. I'll unlock it, but we've only got the demo version working.
C. Foreshadowing: Indoctrination
Ashley: I don't know what you are... not since they got their hands on you. Is it really you? Would you even know if they were controlling you somehow?
Shepard: Ash, it's okay. We figured it out. We stopped Udina and got to walk away. That's the important part.
Ashley: I can't believe he was responsible for all of it. Was he indoctrinated?
Shepard: It's hard to say.
Ashley: How do we fight something that can worm its way into your head?
Shepard: I don't know, but we don't have a choice.
Harbinger (Retaliation trailer): The outcome is inevitable: They will succumb and ascend... or they will be annihilated.
Javik: You took a great risk in allowing a machine access to your mind, Commander. What if it had infected you?
Javik: This is what happens when you allow machines to think for you... you become slaves.
D. Foreshadowing: The ending/victory isn't real
Shepard: Is the Citadel gearing up for war?
Bailey: There's a false sense of security here. Even people from worlds that have gone down act like they're safe. I guess it's not just human nature. We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.
Bailey: Yeah, I'm just like everyone else, losing myself in things I can control. And at the moment, that means creating the illusion of security here.
EDI : Moral decisions should not be made in a vacuum. If I do not ask the crew for their opinions, I could miss crucial context.
Indoctrinated Hanar: Your belief in your victory is mistaken.
Javik: It seems you believed Protheans built the mass relays. The Reapers are cunning in their deception. Allowing life to flourish, century upon century, letting us believe ourselves the masters of the cosmos. Then the truth becomes known. There are monsters in the dark spaces. And we are their prey.
Stargazer kid: Did that all really happen?
Stargazer: Yes..., but some of the details have been lost in time.
Turian: Listen, honey, please... This is how it has to be. Everyone is going through this.
Asari: I know, and I'm sure you'll be fine, but it's just so damn inconvenient. It's like we're pre-spaceflight all of a sudden.
Resistance Information Update (Datapad - From Ashes - Eden Prime):
We've gotten word from our source within Eden Prime's resistance movement that we can expect an attack on our security center between 2200 and 2300 tomorrow night. They're pulling in forces from across the colony--this gives us the perfect chance to destroy their Leadership.
Once the attack is contained, allow Dr. William Cambiata to escape, firing near-miss shots to keep it realistic. He's given us good information, and with luck, the locals will see him as a daring hero and the only man to escape the Cerberus trap. They might even put him in charge!
Troop Deployment Update (Datapad - From Ashes - Eden Prime):
Local resistance is heavy in the south and west sections of the colony. We've pulled most of our troops from the north neighbourhoods to assist. All remaining troops in the north neighbourhood: continue standard patrol activities to maintain the illusion of a large presence in that area. If the locals knew we were understaffed, they could do some serious damage.
E. Foreshadowing: The destroy ending & the breath scene
Anderson: I'm sitting in London, staring at rubble.
Anderson: Shepard. So I imagine you've wiped the galaxy clean of Reapers, and we can all come up for air?
Shepard: Not quite. There are a few complications.
Anderson: Aren't there always? Hackett filled me in on the Crucible. Sounds like you've got some knots to untangle.
Anderson: Mostly you were hired to kill Reapers. I hope you haven't been sidetracked by all the politics.
Shepard: Nothing I can't handle.
Shepard: What's the Citadel's pulse regarding the war?
Bailey: I think all the reports are starting to sink in. You can only live in denial so long.
Shepard: You either wake up or die. Either way...
Bailey: Yeah. One good thing about people having their heads up their asses is the quiet. Now there's no more quiet. Everybody's openly suspicious of everybody else, and they're not timid about yelling about it.
Dominic Osaba: But what I need is proof! I can't take your word for this. Those assumptions merely leave my son stranded in enemy territory. Bilal may still be alive!
Falere: Rila... there wasn't even time to say goodbye!
Samara: Few can break the Reapers' hold. Rila's will was extraordinary, as was her love for you.
Falere: We left her to die!
Garrus: Don't forget to come up for air, there's a lot more war to go.
Kaidan: I want to kick the Reapers straight to hell. Cerberus, too. People near death say their lives flash before their eyes... The future flashed for me--the anguish, the families, the children... It made me determined to live.
Liara: If there was any chance the Ardat-Yakshi could escape, they were to purge the monastery.
Shepard: 'Purge'? You mean: Destroy.
Liara: They would have brought heavy explosives with them, yes.
Mad Preacher (Omega, Mass Effect 2): Repent! The end is nigh! Humans are a blight on galactic purity. You sir! You are a blight! And you! And you, human. And you! (points to Shepard). The Protheans cast off the lesser races: the krogan, the vorcha, and the humans. And so they dwelled in filth, on worlds made of dirt and feces, and there they lay until they stumbled into the skies. The lesser races will be our downfall! The Word is clear. Let none in my sight continue to live, lest their impurity displease me. The Word is clear on this, friends. Humans are the hands of the Reapers, here to commit the galaxy to ruin! Bring unto me the children, that I may watch them grow to soldiers for the cause. The way is clear, my friends. Draw your weapons for the Word, or face its terrible wrath!
The end times will come, not with a bang, but with a sigh. Those who dip their extremities in the well of sin and vice must repent with fire, oil, and gun! Let not fleshly friendships and base urges compel us to sin and neglect. The Word makes its demands, and it demands obedience! And on this great station, the pure shall be rejected, and the lesser races given their places in heaven. And this shall be the beginning of the end. The end times are upon us! Repent and restore your souls to glory!
Mad preacher (in Omega DLC): Draw your weapons for the word, my friends! Draw your weapons and fight! Else certain doom awaits us all! Sally forth and blaze gloriously through the stars! You were warned! You were all warned! Watch now as the hands of the Reapers, the human invaders, lay ruin to all we hold dear!
Shepard: You know, there are views like that on the Citadel. Next time we're there, you should take some shore leave. Clear your head.
Steve Cortez: I don't know. Maybe.
Shepard: Take some time off on the Citadel, Steve. Do it as a favour to me.
Steve: If you put it that way, how can I say no?
Shepard: You can't.
Shepard (to Primarch Victus): (...) Not as complicated as waking up one day and finding out you're the new primarch.
Primarch Victus: Worst case scenarios aren't just theories--they're what you'll be dealing with five minutes from now.
Shepard: You're a good officer, Traynor. Glad you finally realize it.
Traynor: Thanks. Not that I'm volunteering for bomb-jump duty. I'd suggest sending someone who has armour first, if possible.
F. Foreshadowing: Shepard isn't dead, and will get out of the rubble
Ashley: Everything depends on this. Think we have a chance?
Shepard: There's always hope. It's how we got this far.
Ashley: And you made it happen, Shepard. You're the reason we're here.
Shepard: I've had people like you picking me up and dusting me off when I stumbled.
Shepard: Have you heard anything about Earth?
Ashley: We have reports going in all the time on what is going on. Half are wild speculation, and half are probably too optimistic to be true.
Shepard: We have to believe that we can do something.
Ashley: When I thought you were dead, I lost hope. I'm telling you. But when you came back? I was ready to believe anything.
Garrus: How are you holding up, Shepard? This all has to be taking a toll.
Shepard: There's only so much fight in a person, only so much death you can take before--
Garrus: Before your friend picks you up, dusts you off, and tells you you're the best damned soldier he's ever met.
Hospital Visitor: It's completely tasteless to call this place Huerta Memorial.
Hospital Receptionist: President Huerta died of a stroke two years ago, ma'am.
Hospital Visitor: I think you meant to say 'the man was dead for an hour and a half, and his political enemies piled on enough propaganda to get the name of the hospital changed.
Hospital Receptionist: He can't remember his own name without the VI in his head telling him what it is. Trust me, in this building, we know dead.
Hospital Visitor: The supreme court says he is alive.
Hospital Receptionist: Five Justices say he is alive, two of which appointed by him. The name is what it is.
Kaidan: I want to kick the Reapers straight to hell. Cerberus, too. People near death say their lives flash before their eyes... The future flashed for me--the anguish, the families, the children... It made me determined to live.
Major Kirrahe: Though rumors suggest that you're building a superweapon of some kind?
Commander Shepard: There were rumors I were dead, too. You can't believe everything you hear.
Major Kirrahe: Except you were dead.
Commander Shepard: Was I?
Thane: There comes a time when one must rest from war and conflict. It is not your time, but it is mine.
G. Foreshadowing: It isn't over
Diana Allers: I need to believe that you’re going to destroy the Reapers and I’m going to film it as it happens. And when the fight is over, and my signal goes out on tightbeam, people are going to come together from all over the galaxy. They’re going to watch from their couches, and they’ll celebrate. And one day, they’ll laugh again. The laughing part is important. I want you to make it all normal again, Shepard. Because that’s the best revenge I can think of.
Garrus: Don't forget to come up for air, there's a lot more war to go.
Jacob (to Shepard, FOB): There's this great little bar in Rio we have to check out.
Shepard: I'll hold you to it.
Javik (to Shepard, FOB): The future is still out there. It is something my people could never say: There will be a tomorrow.
Shepard: Only if we win today.
Joker (about going to Eden Prime with Nihlus in ME1): I told you that mission was going to be bigger than we thought.
Shepard: I think we can mark that prediction down as accurate.
Joker: And now we're heading back to Earth.
Shepard: Is this mission going to be bigger than we thought too?
Joker: I hope not. A routine delivery run would be fine with me.
Kasumi (to Shepard, FOB): If you live through it, drinks are on me.
Samara: I want you to know there's no one else I'd rather see leading us in our last hours.
Shepard: These aren't our last hours. I'm fighting this war to win it.
Samara: (...) We'll both be tested in fire soon enough.
Private Campbell: When this war is over, I hope we find every race that sat back while we bled, and get some payback.
Private Westmoreland: That's a great plan... follow war with more war.
Shepard (to Jack, FOB): I'll see you on the other side.
Shepard (to Miranda, FOB): This isn't goodbye. You have to believe we're not done yet.
Stargazer kid: Tell me another story about the Shepard.
Stargazer: It's getting late, but... okay. One more story.
Thane: There comes a time when one must rest from war and conflict. It is not your time, but it is mine.
Vega (to Shepard, FOB): So I guess this is it, no? One more push... one last fight.
Shepard: Not necessarily our last.
(Earthborn) Shepard: The city on Earth where I grew up was hard and dirty. I can see it as a war zone.
Wrex (FOB): Today we win our future!
H. Foreshadowing: Control
Shepard: You have a copy of a Shepard VI?
Sales Clerk: Oh yeah, the one based on that war hero? We locked it after some kid spilled soda over the hardware. I'll unlock it, but we've only got the demo version working.
The copy of the Shepard VI: There's nothing we can't beat if we all work together. Except the Reapers. Ever seen the size of one of those things?
The copy of the Shepard VI: My personality matrix can predict what the real Commander Shepard would say with 7% accuracy.
I. Foreshadowing: Synthesis
Groundskeeper Wilihierax: Everything would be so much simpler, if we had all the same DNA. But noooooo, the universe loves diversity.
Harbinger: The flesh is a machine.
Harbinger: Evolution cannot be stopped.
Harbinger: They will be as we are.
Harbinger: Relinquish your form to us.
Harbinger: Embrace perfection.
Harbinger: We are limitless.
Harbinger: You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.
Harbinger: Your worlds will become our laboratories.
Harbinger: We are your genetic destiny.
Harbinger: We are the Harbinger of your perfection.
Harbinger: We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.
Harbinger: Progress cannot be halted.
Harbinger: We are the Harbinger of your destiny.
Harbinger: We are your destiny.
Javik: The Sinril claimed to have found the path to eternal peace.
Garrus: So what happened?
Javik: The Dittakar preferred war, and wiped them out.
Garrus: I hope you guys had alcohol.
Saren: The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard, the evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign, and experience a true rebirth.
Saren: My way is the only way any of us will survive. I am forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines, and in doing so I will save more lives than ever existed.
People who signed this document.
Master Blaster: Texas.
Will work on this more, but for right now enjoy.
Edit: will also go back and check for errors, and wrong words tenses.
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/15859050
Last edited by Master Blaster on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Master Blaster- Geth Prime
- Posts : 1647
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 27
Re: Sign the Declaration of IT.
by Master Blaster Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:44 am
SECTION 6:
Either:
A). Bioware and its writing team, as well as QA, the rendering team and the art department, suddenly forgot that the human body cannot survive vacuum, explosions in excess of megatons of force, or the heat of re-entry, while simultaneously forgetting that events have continuity, that one object cannot inexplicably morph into another without outside effects, and any number of other plot holes that a drunken monkey could spot and could easily be fixed with only the slightest of effort in the WRITING stage, while simultaneously thinking that lack of attention to detail, which has already previously gotten them panned with Deception, would somehow not anger their fanbase, and somehow managed to delude themselves into thinking that an overly saccharine fairy tale ending that happens to completely contradict everything they have stated in the story up until now is "art"
Or
B). It's intentional and it's all in *picture of Shepard* in this guy's head?
- Arian Dynas
What is IT’s best piece of evidence?
The utter improbability that Bioware would write such an awesome, deep game with such great lore and characters, then apparently forget all of those characters, break the lore, and release a generally unsatisfying end the their awesome trilogy. The end of ME3 is arguably the most important part of the series. But then, after that, release more awesomely written DLC. How could they be awesome, screw up very badly, then be awesome again? Doesn't make any sense! So my biggest piece of IT evidence is BW screwing up that badly, because it simply makes less sense than the endings!
Basically if the literal endings are true (regardless of breaking themes and lore) it means Shepard and all of Shepard's friends and allies are just stubborn idiots. They should have listened to the antagonists (Saren, TIM, Reapers) the whole time. Instead they're just soldiers only able to look at the world down the barrel of a gun. That would not only make no sense at all from a writing perspective, but it would be totally, totally lame.
I also want someone to ask why the apparent moral of the story was something like this:
“The villains were right all along; the hero and associates were just too stubborn to realize it. Also, free will sucks, and gets everyone killed. Better to force something on everything in the galaxy."
Here's how I see it: Whether intentionally or not, BW has in fact indoctrinated much of the playerbase. The fun thing about that is you can't really argue it, because said portion of the playerbase aligned themselves with the reapers willingly. If BW didn't intend this, they indoctrinated themselves, much like what the reapers may have done.
- BansheeOwnage
I don't want to argue but Harbinger has visual sensors (eyes). He can see the Normandy. Anyway, if no reapers could see the Normandy because of their IFF, the Normandy could just kill all of the reapers. Slowly sure, but they could do it.
So Harbinger just looks at the Normandy and apparently goes:
"Well, it looks a hell of a lot like Shepard’s ship, but the paperwork says it's a reaper ship... so I guess it's all cool."
- BansheeOwnage
Stop screwing up while accusing other people of screwing up. That last shred of credibility is breaking FTL trying to get away from you.
- Rifneno
I have seen more literalists coming in here and claiming we state the IT as fact than I have seen IT people actually do that. In fact, quite a lot of IT people go out of the way to point out that it is only a theory when talking to literalists. Off course we don’t do this very much in this thread since everyone here is already aware that it is a theory. We don’t have to point that out to people who we have been talking to for 3 months.
In fact you are missing the biggest part here. It is called the "Indoctrination theory" not the "ending" or "truth" or whatever you might think of. No, it is called a theory already in the title, but it is a theory with some very, very compelling arguments.
- Raistlin Majare 1992
London Calling - The ClashThe ending takes place in London, clash representing the conflict taking place.
Delve deeper into the record, notice some of the tracks:
i) London Calling
ii) Hateful
iii) Death or Glory
iv) Four Horsemen
v) I'm Not Down
vi) Revolution Rock
Now, obviously, I'm looking too far into the album, but it interests me. These tracks strike me as fitting in with the ending. Hatred from and towards the Reapers, the four horsemen of the apocalypse indicating what could happen if we fail. Death or glory, success or total annihilation. Revolution against the norm, the norm being a Reaper victory and thus ending the cycle.
Atomic Weight of Iron
55.845 +/- 0.002 u
Fe, Atomic Number: 26
Famous iron canyons of Aequitas...another link to indoctrination and the potential Leviathan DLC - if we are right in suggesting the DLC may take place at Aequitas. If it does not, it is still another link to indoctrination, with the device in ME2.
Or if you're mental you could look at it like this (This is just for fun, I don't actually believe this):
26 is the Atomic Number
The crystalline structure is Cubic...cubes have 6 faces...
26/6 is the day the Extended Cut was released - CONCLUSIVE (lol)
UK Secret Service
Provides the government with foreign intelligence - maybe a nudge towards Earth being supplied information from "foreign" planets, maybe but this is a reach. Though we do provide Anderson and Earth with info throughout the game?
Moving on, I suspect it's something to do with Reaper spies within London, purely because the Indoctrination Codezx entry mentions this sort of thing and it makes perfect sense. Coates being the Reaper thrall makes sense, considering he was by himself fighting Reapers for days and so his mind likely would have been weakened...could also fit with why we clearly see the warning sign next to him on the Mako similar to the signs near the kid on Vancouver.
-128.6 FahrenheitVostok Station, Antarctica - -128.6 Fahrenheit the coldest temperature recorded on Earth
Vostok System - Alko, Clomarthu, Nodacrux, Pataiton, .ALKO - Unregistered starship travel, travel not recommended
CLOMARTHU - Could be Earth's twin (size and orbit) but no life
NODACRUX - Very interesting. Abandoned facility with Thorian Creepers (Indoctrination) thus links in with the hinted Leviathan DLC - Also space cows xD
PATAITON - Meh, just a Matriarch writing Tali discovers on ship
Nodacrux interests me greatly. Especially with there being mentions to Thorians in the hinted DLC...this could prove to be a link to these clues
May also just point to Lake Vostok in Eastern Antarcitca, where scientists (Now, in the present 2012) hypothesise new life could be found in the underwater lake...maybe hinting there could be something in the lake that's been hidden for thousands of years...an Ancient species, a weapon, plans? This is purely **** thoughts and bull - I'm sure it relates to the Vostok system, specifically Nodacrux and its Thorian creepers.
Red HerringThe most interesting of all. Red Herring, also known as IGNORATIO ELENCHI...which translates to - which I find absolutely perfect - IRRELEVANT CONCLUSION, or FALLACY OF DISTRACTION.
"deliberate attempt to divert a process of enquiry by changing the subject. For example: "I think that we should make the academic requirements stricter for students. I recommend that you support this because we are in a budget crisis and we do not want our salaries affected."[/i] Here the second sentence, though used to support the first, does not address the topic of the first sentence, instead switching the focus to the quite different topic of lecturer salaries. "
Holy ****, this has got me excited.
Also sorry for my post if it appears stupid, I just went full crazy on this research stuff xD INTERESTING
Any opinions? I workeded hard being a tinhat!
- CoolioThane
The endings with or without the EC are REVOLTING.
I am not kidding.
The "questions" that we got answered, were answered in the most shallow and unsatisfying ways possibly, primarily by being told that we didn't have time to discuss them, with a being who by all rights should be able to give himself as much time TO discuss it, being an infinite and immortal AI, as he needs. The only question answered was basically "Ok, yeah a few fan theories like becoming the Catalyst confirmed. Oh and we're not really going to talk about the repercussions, and I make oblique references to past events that all seem far off and ominous."
THAT IS NOT SATISFYING.
And that's not even my beef with the whole thing. Seriously, that's just the strawberry on top of a very tall layer cake.
Synthesis, is in a word, DISGUSTING. Aside from being assured by the Catalyst that everything will be fine and perfect and form an absolutely vomit inducing saccharine utopia, we have no guarantee. None. It would be like Tommy Wieseau popping out from behind the Catalyst to go; "Oh no no, you would never get betrayed, you're my best customer" (Linkara references us, only fair to return the favor) You are told you can't force Synthesis. Why? Why is it different now? Why can you force Synthesis now and not before? If Synthesis is inevitable, why bother choosing it? Why not take one of the other descisions and let it happen naturally? And that's not even forgetting that everywhere you see it, Synthesis is panned by nearly every non-indoctrinated character as being not only insane, but out and out evil
And I haven't even started on the "scientific" basis, which is never adequately explained nor covered in any way, and seems to be something pulled directly from the arses of the writers, and if intentional, a sign of lazy writing of the lowest calibre (which makes NO sense for these people who DO research their sci-fi EXTREMELY well.)
And STILL don't even get me started on the moral issues of invading the personal autonomy and privacy of every being in the known and unknown galaxy, to work circut boards into them without their permission. Something that one could draw a pretty unfavorable analogue to quite literally raping the galaxy and forcing them to keep and care for their rape-baby, clearly brainwashing, or mentally murdering any beings whom would be opposed to this, such as Javik, who does not seem the least bit surprised or even bothered, when the Javik I know would have thrown himself out of the nearest airlock at the first opportunity. You mean to tell me Synthesis made him too lazy to be arsed to kill himself?
And with Control it gets EVEN BETTER, failing to explain the Catayst's origins, why you must become the new catalyst, how, or even the method of doing so, a well as the direct defiance of everything established about Reapers, being that they are "Each a nation, INDEPENDENT, and free of all weakness."
And still keeping in mind, by it's own admission, this "catalyst" you create not only admits to not being Shepard, and is only loosely based off of his thought patterns, there is no reason to trust this abomination either. And this is still ignoring the fact that you are basically declaring yourself the galactic guardian, police chief of the entire galaxy, with an unconquerable army, forcing the entire galaxy into a facist police state, and STILL ignoring that Reapers, being made from the dead and collected souls of entire species, merged in the most horrific and likely painful ways imaginable, are still basically corpses dancing to your tune.
If this were a fantasy game, the option to Destroy All Undead would be far FAR and away seen as more good than the option to "Turn everyone half dead" and "Control All Undead." Kind of puts it in perspective, don't it?
That, and to top it off, this all has the enormous detriment of making the hero completely wrong, and basically invalidating the need for an ME1 or an ME2, as well as ME3 itself, since it makes the villains wright and the hero wrong, there is no point for the hero to do what a hero does, and Shepard might as well lie down and die on Eden Prime if Saren is completely right.
EVEN THOUGH IN GAME WE PROVIDED MORE COUNTEREXAMPLES THAN THERE ARE EXAMPLES. Like the Geth Quarian peace, EDI, everything ever told to you by Javik or anyone else really, or the fact that NOT MINUTES AGO, concerning Control, you could prove the Illusive Man so wrong about Control that he shoots himself in the head for it.
- Arian Dynas
WHAT INDOCTRINATION THEORY IS ABOUT
IT at its core isn't about the dream sequence, or hallucinations, though we do deduce them. IT isn't about trivializing the ending or retconning it, quite the opposite in fact. IT isn't about hoping Bioware will come up with a better ending down the line, since we hope not for new endings but new epilogue material. And IT isn’t about disrespecting Bioware or its writing talents. In fact we’re celebrating it.
IT accepts the ending we saw as the ending we have. IT accepts that the ending we saw is the culmination of the series. IT accepts that any DLC related to the ending or post-ending will not change the fundamentals of ME3’s ending.
What IT is actually about is this: The primary plot of ME3 is not just saving the galaxy from cuttlefish. It’s the struggle for the soul of the galaxy against hostile powers that would devour it. Shepard’s journey is central to that, and decides the outcome. You must overcome deception, manipulation and temptation to achieve victory. If you fail, if you let fear or doubt compromise your judgment, you will become a tyrant just like the monsters you fought.
The entire series has revolved around ethics, their diversity and the conflicts that arise from them. It establishes the setting, defines characters, and is the focus of virtually every important mission in all three games. The reapers and their indoctrinate agents are antagonists because above all else they are unethical, and they drag all other life around them down to their level, where terror and suffering are deemed acceptable and where compassion cannot be found.
According to IT, if you choose either Control or Synthesis, you were brought down to that level. To some degree you will have accepted the reapers’ justifications for the unjustifiable. You will have believed the unbelievable. You will have trusted the untrustworthy. You will have betrayed everything and everyone you fought for throughout three games, and you will have done so for dubious promises or empty self-satisfaction. You will have robbed the galaxy of the chance to build a future for itself because you accepted a future that your enemy presented to you.
But if you choose Destroy or Reject*, you will have beaten their efforts to turn you. You will have accepted the terrible price, real or imagined, but saved the integrity of galactic life. You will not have compromised with the planet raping cuttlefish who spread terror and madness wherever they tread. You will have had the good grace to know right from wrong, no matter what code of ethics you stand by.
Basically, you must choose Right against immense encouragement to choose Wrong. That’s the fundamental idea of Indoctrination Theory.
It’s not that the ending is a dream or there’s a reset button. We think there was a dream, but that doesn’t mean what we saw didn’t matter, and it’s not a necessary component to the core idea. Hell, you can imagine the end sequence as actually happening completely and this idea can still be valid. And the EC did nothing to dispel it as invalid. But of course the theory is not just this idea but involves larger case surrounding it…
*We can’t agree on whether or not Reject is in fact a victory condition. There is simply too little information regarding it to agree one way or the other.
THE CASE FOR INDOCTRINATION THEORY
The Catalyst appears as the Earthchild. Thus we can conclude that the Catalyst was actively directing Shepard’s perceptions. Since it openly associates with the reapers, encourages choices reminiscent of the goals of indoctrinated villains, and provides no proof but its word that it is not the enemy still, we conclude that the Catalyst is trying to manipulate us for its own ends and not Shepard’s benefit. From here we can begin to build a case for an indoctrination attempt occurring in the final minutes of ME3.
We see Shepard waking up in rubble that is one iota shy of being undoubtedly London rubble, thus we conclude dreams and hallucinations. Granted we can’t determine exactly what the balance is between reality and fantasy between different shots let alone different scenes. But dreams have already been used in the series before both as plot vehicles and as established vectors of indoctrination. From this we can establish method.
We find that Shepard has canonically been in the vicinity of indoctrinating presences for significant periods of time (not even getting into optional opportunities such as Arrival), and that Shepard does exhibit established symptoms of undergoing an indoctrination process. Coupled with the absence of reason to believe otherwise we conclude that Shepard must have been touched by indoctrination to some degree by the time of Priority: Earth. We can establish opportunity.
We see the reapers behaving completely contrary to what should be expected, including allowing the relay network to remain functional and Harbinger implausibly failing to kill Shepard. From that we conclude that the reapers were planning to indoctrinate Shepard for their ends. Considering Shepard’s achievements and significance, and therefore Shepards possible usefulness to the reapers as an indoctrinated agent, we can establish motive.
Method. Opportunity. Motive. We have a case for Shepard undergoing indoctrination. It’s a solid case. It’s a mother beautiful case. It’s coherent and consistent with the rest of the series. It’s based on facts. It answers so many questions and fixes so many problems. There are literally hundreds of pages of circumstantial evidence in support of it…
SO WHAT’S THE PROBLEM
The case is plausible. But it’s a Watsonian case, not a Doylist one. This is where I think most of the problems and schisms in the fanbase regarding IT come from.
Many theorists leap to the conclusion that the Indoctrination Theory must have been consciously implemented by Bioware. But that’s a separate theory entirely. It’s its own case that must be evaluated as such. And it’s a much trickier case. Whilst Bioware certainly had the method and opportunity to implement IT, the arguments for their motive to do so still are still shaky, many of the implications if the case turns out correct can be construed as unpleasant, and there is simply not a strong body of evidence, circumstantial or direct to support it. There is the curious presentation Earthchild’s introduction, and there is Shepard spontaneously developing TIM eyes in Control and Synthesis, there’s even Coats’ odd cameo in the Citadel corpse pile, but there is honestly very little else that approaches anywhere near solid that Bioware intended IT.
You can’t use the majority of the body of circumstantial evidence for Indoctrination Theory to support “Bioware Intends IT Theory” because that’s trying to apply Watsonian evidence to a Doylist argument. Many literalists here have done the exact opposite. They bring up evidence that could be construed as “bad writing”, whether it be inept, lazy, ham-fisted, etc. to discredit IT. But that’s trying to counter a Watsonian theory with Doylist arguments.
Either way, it’s essentially comparing apples to oranges. You can argue the merits of Indoctrination Theory with Watsonian evidence. You can argue the idea that Bioware intends IT with Doylist evidence. But please for the love of all that’s good on this planet stop being dolts and mixing them up. They’re separate theories that need to be evaluated and dealt with separately. And stop falling for your confirmation biases. It’s lazy and stupid. It’s bad speculation.
I like Indoctrination Theory. It’s my head canon. But I’m currently completely agnostic about believing whether Bioware will actually embrace it as canon or not. I usually lean against the idea. What I know is that IT is for the moment only a theory. It’s a plausible, valid theory, but it’s not a proven fact. And the only trier of fact who can confirm or debunk it as fact is Bioware.
But then again it shouldn’t be disparaged because it’s only “wishful thinking”. Indoctrination Theory is about choosing Right from Wrong. Its purpose is to provide closure. It provides coherency and depth to what is otherwise a shallow and broken conclusion. If you disagree with these statements, either provide good alternatives or get the hell out.
TLDR: F*ck it, just read the damn wall. :P
- Simon_Says
Either:
A). Bioware and its writing team, as well as QA, the rendering team and the art department, suddenly forgot that the human body cannot survive vacuum, explosions in excess of megatons of force, or the heat of re-entry, while simultaneously forgetting that events have continuity, that one object cannot inexplicably morph into another without outside effects, and any number of other plot holes that a drunken monkey could spot and could easily be fixed with only the slightest of effort in the WRITING stage, while simultaneously thinking that lack of attention to detail, which has already previously gotten them panned with Deception, would somehow not anger their fanbase, and somehow managed to delude themselves into thinking that an overly saccharine fairy tale ending that happens to completely contradict everything they have stated in the story up until now is "art"
Or
B). It's intentional and it's all in *picture of Shepard* in this guy's head?
- Arian Dynas
What is IT’s best piece of evidence?
The utter improbability that Bioware would write such an awesome, deep game with such great lore and characters, then apparently forget all of those characters, break the lore, and release a generally unsatisfying end the their awesome trilogy. The end of ME3 is arguably the most important part of the series. But then, after that, release more awesomely written DLC. How could they be awesome, screw up very badly, then be awesome again? Doesn't make any sense! So my biggest piece of IT evidence is BW screwing up that badly, because it simply makes less sense than the endings!
Basically if the literal endings are true (regardless of breaking themes and lore) it means Shepard and all of Shepard's friends and allies are just stubborn idiots. They should have listened to the antagonists (Saren, TIM, Reapers) the whole time. Instead they're just soldiers only able to look at the world down the barrel of a gun. That would not only make no sense at all from a writing perspective, but it would be totally, totally lame.
I also want someone to ask why the apparent moral of the story was something like this:
“The villains were right all along; the hero and associates were just too stubborn to realize it. Also, free will sucks, and gets everyone killed. Better to force something on everything in the galaxy."
Here's how I see it: Whether intentionally or not, BW has in fact indoctrinated much of the playerbase. The fun thing about that is you can't really argue it, because said portion of the playerbase aligned themselves with the reapers willingly. If BW didn't intend this, they indoctrinated themselves, much like what the reapers may have done.
- BansheeOwnage
I don't want to argue but Harbinger has visual sensors (eyes). He can see the Normandy. Anyway, if no reapers could see the Normandy because of their IFF, the Normandy could just kill all of the reapers. Slowly sure, but they could do it.
So Harbinger just looks at the Normandy and apparently goes:
"Well, it looks a hell of a lot like Shepard’s ship, but the paperwork says it's a reaper ship... so I guess it's all cool."
- BansheeOwnage
Stop screwing up while accusing other people of screwing up. That last shred of credibility is breaking FTL trying to get away from you.
- Rifneno
I have seen more literalists coming in here and claiming we state the IT as fact than I have seen IT people actually do that. In fact, quite a lot of IT people go out of the way to point out that it is only a theory when talking to literalists. Off course we don’t do this very much in this thread since everyone here is already aware that it is a theory. We don’t have to point that out to people who we have been talking to for 3 months.
In fact you are missing the biggest part here. It is called the "Indoctrination theory" not the "ending" or "truth" or whatever you might think of. No, it is called a theory already in the title, but it is a theory with some very, very compelling arguments.
- Raistlin Majare 1992
London Calling - The ClashThe ending takes place in London, clash representing the conflict taking place.
Delve deeper into the record, notice some of the tracks:
i) London Calling
ii) Hateful
iii) Death or Glory
iv) Four Horsemen
v) I'm Not Down
vi) Revolution Rock
Now, obviously, I'm looking too far into the album, but it interests me. These tracks strike me as fitting in with the ending. Hatred from and towards the Reapers, the four horsemen of the apocalypse indicating what could happen if we fail. Death or glory, success or total annihilation. Revolution against the norm, the norm being a Reaper victory and thus ending the cycle.
Atomic Weight of Iron
55.845 +/- 0.002 u
Fe, Atomic Number: 26
Famous iron canyons of Aequitas...another link to indoctrination and the potential Leviathan DLC - if we are right in suggesting the DLC may take place at Aequitas. If it does not, it is still another link to indoctrination, with the device in ME2.
Or if you're mental you could look at it like this (This is just for fun, I don't actually believe this):
26 is the Atomic Number
The crystalline structure is Cubic...cubes have 6 faces...
26/6 is the day the Extended Cut was released - CONCLUSIVE (lol)
UK Secret Service
Provides the government with foreign intelligence - maybe a nudge towards Earth being supplied information from "foreign" planets, maybe but this is a reach. Though we do provide Anderson and Earth with info throughout the game?
Moving on, I suspect it's something to do with Reaper spies within London, purely because the Indoctrination Codezx entry mentions this sort of thing and it makes perfect sense. Coates being the Reaper thrall makes sense, considering he was by himself fighting Reapers for days and so his mind likely would have been weakened...could also fit with why we clearly see the warning sign next to him on the Mako similar to the signs near the kid on Vancouver.
-128.6 FahrenheitVostok Station, Antarctica - -128.6 Fahrenheit the coldest temperature recorded on Earth
Vostok System - Alko, Clomarthu, Nodacrux, Pataiton, .ALKO - Unregistered starship travel, travel not recommended
CLOMARTHU - Could be Earth's twin (size and orbit) but no life
NODACRUX - Very interesting. Abandoned facility with Thorian Creepers (Indoctrination) thus links in with the hinted Leviathan DLC - Also space cows xD
PATAITON - Meh, just a Matriarch writing Tali discovers on ship
Nodacrux interests me greatly. Especially with there being mentions to Thorians in the hinted DLC...this could prove to be a link to these clues
May also just point to Lake Vostok in Eastern Antarcitca, where scientists (Now, in the present 2012) hypothesise new life could be found in the underwater lake...maybe hinting there could be something in the lake that's been hidden for thousands of years...an Ancient species, a weapon, plans? This is purely **** thoughts and bull - I'm sure it relates to the Vostok system, specifically Nodacrux and its Thorian creepers.
Red HerringThe most interesting of all. Red Herring, also known as IGNORATIO ELENCHI...which translates to - which I find absolutely perfect - IRRELEVANT CONCLUSION, or FALLACY OF DISTRACTION.
"deliberate attempt to divert a process of enquiry by changing the subject. For example: "I think that we should make the academic requirements stricter for students. I recommend that you support this because we are in a budget crisis and we do not want our salaries affected."[/i] Here the second sentence, though used to support the first, does not address the topic of the first sentence, instead switching the focus to the quite different topic of lecturer salaries. "
Holy ****, this has got me excited.
Also sorry for my post if it appears stupid, I just went full crazy on this research stuff xD INTERESTING
Any opinions? I workeded hard being a tinhat!
- CoolioThane
The endings with or without the EC are REVOLTING.
I am not kidding.
The "questions" that we got answered, were answered in the most shallow and unsatisfying ways possibly, primarily by being told that we didn't have time to discuss them, with a being who by all rights should be able to give himself as much time TO discuss it, being an infinite and immortal AI, as he needs. The only question answered was basically "Ok, yeah a few fan theories like becoming the Catalyst confirmed. Oh and we're not really going to talk about the repercussions, and I make oblique references to past events that all seem far off and ominous."
THAT IS NOT SATISFYING.
And that's not even my beef with the whole thing. Seriously, that's just the strawberry on top of a very tall layer cake.
Synthesis, is in a word, DISGUSTING. Aside from being assured by the Catalyst that everything will be fine and perfect and form an absolutely vomit inducing saccharine utopia, we have no guarantee. None. It would be like Tommy Wieseau popping out from behind the Catalyst to go; "Oh no no, you would never get betrayed, you're my best customer" (Linkara references us, only fair to return the favor) You are told you can't force Synthesis. Why? Why is it different now? Why can you force Synthesis now and not before? If Synthesis is inevitable, why bother choosing it? Why not take one of the other descisions and let it happen naturally? And that's not even forgetting that everywhere you see it, Synthesis is panned by nearly every non-indoctrinated character as being not only insane, but out and out evil
And I haven't even started on the "scientific" basis, which is never adequately explained nor covered in any way, and seems to be something pulled directly from the arses of the writers, and if intentional, a sign of lazy writing of the lowest calibre (which makes NO sense for these people who DO research their sci-fi EXTREMELY well.)
And STILL don't even get me started on the moral issues of invading the personal autonomy and privacy of every being in the known and unknown galaxy, to work circut boards into them without their permission. Something that one could draw a pretty unfavorable analogue to quite literally raping the galaxy and forcing them to keep and care for their rape-baby, clearly brainwashing, or mentally murdering any beings whom would be opposed to this, such as Javik, who does not seem the least bit surprised or even bothered, when the Javik I know would have thrown himself out of the nearest airlock at the first opportunity. You mean to tell me Synthesis made him too lazy to be arsed to kill himself?
And with Control it gets EVEN BETTER, failing to explain the Catayst's origins, why you must become the new catalyst, how, or even the method of doing so, a well as the direct defiance of everything established about Reapers, being that they are "Each a nation, INDEPENDENT, and free of all weakness."
And still keeping in mind, by it's own admission, this "catalyst" you create not only admits to not being Shepard, and is only loosely based off of his thought patterns, there is no reason to trust this abomination either. And this is still ignoring the fact that you are basically declaring yourself the galactic guardian, police chief of the entire galaxy, with an unconquerable army, forcing the entire galaxy into a facist police state, and STILL ignoring that Reapers, being made from the dead and collected souls of entire species, merged in the most horrific and likely painful ways imaginable, are still basically corpses dancing to your tune.
If this were a fantasy game, the option to Destroy All Undead would be far FAR and away seen as more good than the option to "Turn everyone half dead" and "Control All Undead." Kind of puts it in perspective, don't it?
That, and to top it off, this all has the enormous detriment of making the hero completely wrong, and basically invalidating the need for an ME1 or an ME2, as well as ME3 itself, since it makes the villains wright and the hero wrong, there is no point for the hero to do what a hero does, and Shepard might as well lie down and die on Eden Prime if Saren is completely right.
EVEN THOUGH IN GAME WE PROVIDED MORE COUNTEREXAMPLES THAN THERE ARE EXAMPLES. Like the Geth Quarian peace, EDI, everything ever told to you by Javik or anyone else really, or the fact that NOT MINUTES AGO, concerning Control, you could prove the Illusive Man so wrong about Control that he shoots himself in the head for it.
- Arian Dynas
WHAT INDOCTRINATION THEORY IS ABOUT
IT at its core isn't about the dream sequence, or hallucinations, though we do deduce them. IT isn't about trivializing the ending or retconning it, quite the opposite in fact. IT isn't about hoping Bioware will come up with a better ending down the line, since we hope not for new endings but new epilogue material. And IT isn’t about disrespecting Bioware or its writing talents. In fact we’re celebrating it.
IT accepts the ending we saw as the ending we have. IT accepts that the ending we saw is the culmination of the series. IT accepts that any DLC related to the ending or post-ending will not change the fundamentals of ME3’s ending.
What IT is actually about is this: The primary plot of ME3 is not just saving the galaxy from cuttlefish. It’s the struggle for the soul of the galaxy against hostile powers that would devour it. Shepard’s journey is central to that, and decides the outcome. You must overcome deception, manipulation and temptation to achieve victory. If you fail, if you let fear or doubt compromise your judgment, you will become a tyrant just like the monsters you fought.
The entire series has revolved around ethics, their diversity and the conflicts that arise from them. It establishes the setting, defines characters, and is the focus of virtually every important mission in all three games. The reapers and their indoctrinate agents are antagonists because above all else they are unethical, and they drag all other life around them down to their level, where terror and suffering are deemed acceptable and where compassion cannot be found.
According to IT, if you choose either Control or Synthesis, you were brought down to that level. To some degree you will have accepted the reapers’ justifications for the unjustifiable. You will have believed the unbelievable. You will have trusted the untrustworthy. You will have betrayed everything and everyone you fought for throughout three games, and you will have done so for dubious promises or empty self-satisfaction. You will have robbed the galaxy of the chance to build a future for itself because you accepted a future that your enemy presented to you.
But if you choose Destroy or Reject*, you will have beaten their efforts to turn you. You will have accepted the terrible price, real or imagined, but saved the integrity of galactic life. You will not have compromised with the planet raping cuttlefish who spread terror and madness wherever they tread. You will have had the good grace to know right from wrong, no matter what code of ethics you stand by.
Basically, you must choose Right against immense encouragement to choose Wrong. That’s the fundamental idea of Indoctrination Theory.
It’s not that the ending is a dream or there’s a reset button. We think there was a dream, but that doesn’t mean what we saw didn’t matter, and it’s not a necessary component to the core idea. Hell, you can imagine the end sequence as actually happening completely and this idea can still be valid. And the EC did nothing to dispel it as invalid. But of course the theory is not just this idea but involves larger case surrounding it…
*We can’t agree on whether or not Reject is in fact a victory condition. There is simply too little information regarding it to agree one way or the other.
THE CASE FOR INDOCTRINATION THEORY
The Catalyst appears as the Earthchild. Thus we can conclude that the Catalyst was actively directing Shepard’s perceptions. Since it openly associates with the reapers, encourages choices reminiscent of the goals of indoctrinated villains, and provides no proof but its word that it is not the enemy still, we conclude that the Catalyst is trying to manipulate us for its own ends and not Shepard’s benefit. From here we can begin to build a case for an indoctrination attempt occurring in the final minutes of ME3.
We see Shepard waking up in rubble that is one iota shy of being undoubtedly London rubble, thus we conclude dreams and hallucinations. Granted we can’t determine exactly what the balance is between reality and fantasy between different shots let alone different scenes. But dreams have already been used in the series before both as plot vehicles and as established vectors of indoctrination. From this we can establish method.
We find that Shepard has canonically been in the vicinity of indoctrinating presences for significant periods of time (not even getting into optional opportunities such as Arrival), and that Shepard does exhibit established symptoms of undergoing an indoctrination process. Coupled with the absence of reason to believe otherwise we conclude that Shepard must have been touched by indoctrination to some degree by the time of Priority: Earth. We can establish opportunity.
We see the reapers behaving completely contrary to what should be expected, including allowing the relay network to remain functional and Harbinger implausibly failing to kill Shepard. From that we conclude that the reapers were planning to indoctrinate Shepard for their ends. Considering Shepard’s achievements and significance, and therefore Shepards possible usefulness to the reapers as an indoctrinated agent, we can establish motive.
Method. Opportunity. Motive. We have a case for Shepard undergoing indoctrination. It’s a solid case. It’s a mother beautiful case. It’s coherent and consistent with the rest of the series. It’s based on facts. It answers so many questions and fixes so many problems. There are literally hundreds of pages of circumstantial evidence in support of it…
SO WHAT’S THE PROBLEM
The case is plausible. But it’s a Watsonian case, not a Doylist one. This is where I think most of the problems and schisms in the fanbase regarding IT come from.
Many theorists leap to the conclusion that the Indoctrination Theory must have been consciously implemented by Bioware. But that’s a separate theory entirely. It’s its own case that must be evaluated as such. And it’s a much trickier case. Whilst Bioware certainly had the method and opportunity to implement IT, the arguments for their motive to do so still are still shaky, many of the implications if the case turns out correct can be construed as unpleasant, and there is simply not a strong body of evidence, circumstantial or direct to support it. There is the curious presentation Earthchild’s introduction, and there is Shepard spontaneously developing TIM eyes in Control and Synthesis, there’s even Coats’ odd cameo in the Citadel corpse pile, but there is honestly very little else that approaches anywhere near solid that Bioware intended IT.
You can’t use the majority of the body of circumstantial evidence for Indoctrination Theory to support “Bioware Intends IT Theory” because that’s trying to apply Watsonian evidence to a Doylist argument. Many literalists here have done the exact opposite. They bring up evidence that could be construed as “bad writing”, whether it be inept, lazy, ham-fisted, etc. to discredit IT. But that’s trying to counter a Watsonian theory with Doylist arguments.
Either way, it’s essentially comparing apples to oranges. You can argue the merits of Indoctrination Theory with Watsonian evidence. You can argue the idea that Bioware intends IT with Doylist evidence. But please for the love of all that’s good on this planet stop being dolts and mixing them up. They’re separate theories that need to be evaluated and dealt with separately. And stop falling for your confirmation biases. It’s lazy and stupid. It’s bad speculation.
I like Indoctrination Theory. It’s my head canon. But I’m currently completely agnostic about believing whether Bioware will actually embrace it as canon or not. I usually lean against the idea. What I know is that IT is for the moment only a theory. It’s a plausible, valid theory, but it’s not a proven fact. And the only trier of fact who can confirm or debunk it as fact is Bioware.
But then again it shouldn’t be disparaged because it’s only “wishful thinking”. Indoctrination Theory is about choosing Right from Wrong. Its purpose is to provide closure. It provides coherency and depth to what is otherwise a shallow and broken conclusion. If you disagree with these statements, either provide good alternatives or get the hell out.
TLDR: F*ck it, just read the damn wall. :P
- Simon_Says
Master Blaster- Geth Prime
- Posts : 1647
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 27
Re: Sign the Declaration of IT.
by KevShep Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:08 am
I am an ITer myself, however if the BSN is stopping any IT fourm then I take that as a confirmation that IT is NOT true in THERE eyes.
I will always take the IT as truth but I not going to hold my breath on Bioware. I find Bioware's logic reguarding the ending one of the biggest blunders of gaming history. Weather intended or not the IT NEEDS to be used by Bioware. There is NO reason at all that bioware should not use it.
I will always take the IT as truth but I not going to hold my breath on Bioware. I find Bioware's logic reguarding the ending one of the biggest blunders of gaming history. Weather intended or not the IT NEEDS to be used by Bioware. There is NO reason at all that bioware should not use it.
KevShep- Drone
- Posts : 3
Join date : 2013-02-07
CmdrShep80- Blood Pack Warrior
- Posts : 968
Join date : 2013-01-09
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