Is Control Possible

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by solidsnake78 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:30 pm

symbowles wrote:TIM and Cerberus offer the same distractions to this cycle as the Prothean splinter faction did to Javik's cycle. Not only do the Reapers have their forces but they also have Cerberus forces to aid them in their harvest. The reapers let TIM think whatever he wants, as long as his agenda aligns with reaper goals, they really don't care how he does what he does. Perhaps something in sanctuary was deviating from reaper goals, so they invaded to keep everything in check. I think the fact that it took until sanctuary for the reapers and Cerberus to fight (do they ever even fight each other after that??) lends to this idea.

With that said, anything but destroying the reapers would be a complete insult to Shepard, Shepard's allies, the entire galaxy, and the countless species the reapers have already harvested. The reapers are abominations that deserve nothing less than complete destruction.

Like seriously, lets say there's some crazy murderer that has killed dozens of people in your city for his own purposes...you'd be comfortable with the police saying, "we control him now, it's all good, he's just gonna chill around the city now"




comon...

That made me laugh pretty damn hard.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by symbowles on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:32 pm

solidsnake78 wrote:
That made me laugh pretty damn hard.

Then my work here is done. cheers
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Eryri on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:32 pm

Interesting topic Steelcan.

I'd be inclined to think that it's not possible. Remember that the Reapers wanted TIM to believe he could control them. They may simply have allowed him the illusion of control over a handful of husks.

Also have others have said - the Reapers a re a mix of synthetic and organic components. This is just an unsupported theory of mine, but even if you are able to subvert the programming of their synthetic side, their organic side might compensate and reassert control in time. And vice versa, if the Leviathans can knock out a Reaper by enthralling their organic side, perhaps their synthetic components can adapt and eventually over-ride that control. "The strength of both, the weaknesses of neither" and all that jazz.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Hrothdane on Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:30 pm

I just realized something:

Abominations are essentially explosive husks, right? What if the pre-Collector indoctrinated Protheans managed to learn how to "control" husks as well, and the abominations are what we see of that?

The Reapers might try to bait everyone with the control idea the same way.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by draconian139 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:02 am

solidsnake78 wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
solidsnake78 wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?
. So? Cerberus reused Reaper Tech in all likely hood

And all reaper tech does what people...
last time I checked the relays didnt indoctrinate.

You know, I have been thinking about that, I think the Citadel VERY SUBTLY indoctrinates and pacifies everyone in it. The relays, don't know, maybe a similar effect. Or maybe the Leviathans made the relays? Is it ever stated for sure with all these retons about?

I've thought this as well...if for no other reason than it conveniently explains the stupidity of the council throughout most of the games.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by solidsnake78 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:05 am

draconian139 wrote:
solidsnake78 wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
solidsnake78 wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?
. So? Cerberus reused Reaper Tech in all likely hood

And all reaper tech does what people...
last time I checked the relays didnt indoctrinate.

You know, I have been thinking about that, I think the Citadel VERY SUBTLY indoctrinates and pacifies everyone in it. The relays, don't know, maybe a similar effect. Or maybe the Leviathans made the relays? Is it ever stated for sure with all these retons about?

I've thought this as well...if for no other reason than it conveniently explains the stupidity of the council throughout most of the games.

Yeah, they dont believe it even when one literally attacks the Citadel. Oh, that wreckage? Tech never seen before? Insanely advanced? All that evidence you have uncovered? Geth.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by draconian139 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:29 am

A bit more on topic though, I'm with steelcan on this one. That mission did leave me with the impression that Cerberus was at least on the right track to being able to control the Reapers. Its probably not something that could be accompished anytime soon though and definitely not within the short time frame between this mission and the end.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:55 am

Eryri wrote:Interesting topic Steelcan.

I'd be inclined to think that it's not possible. Remember that the Reapers wanted TIM to believe he could control them. They may simply have allowed him the illusion of control over a handful of husks.

Also have others have said - the Reapers a re a mix of synthetic and organic components. This is just an unsupported theory of mine, but even if you are able to subvert the programming of their synthetic side, their organic side might compensate and reassert control in time. And vice versa, if the Leviathans can knock out a Reaper by enthralling their organic side, perhaps their synthetic components can adapt and eventually over-ride that control. "The strength of both, the weaknesses of neither" and all that jazz.
Their organic side only comes out in their construction, nowhere else. Sovereign thinks of himself as synthetic, so I'd imagine the other reapers do as well.

As for the a reapers humoring TIM, that's a huge risk on their part, letting him tinker with indoctrination.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Maximus on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:08 pm

Eryri wrote:Their organic side only comes out in their construction, nowhere else. Sovereign thinks of himself as synthetic, so I'd imagine the other reapers do as well. As for the a reapers humoring TIM, that's a huge risk on their part, letting him tinker with indoctrination.

Reaper's body is purely synthetic and organic material serves only as a resource to create Reaper's "brain". They don't bleed, we never saw any part of a Reaper that might be even partially organic, it's always some kind of metal "walls", "cables" and such. Remeber interior of the Derelict Reaper? Yeah, no organic stuff inside...except husks...and some dead bodies.

Unless...they can somehow convert organic material to create metal or whatever that stuff is that the Reapers are made of. Seems impossible, but I'm no scientist so I don't know. >,< Ideas?

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Humakt on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:10 pm

Steelcan wrote:

Sovereign thinks of himself as synthetic, so I'd imagine the other reapers do as well.


What made you come to such a conclusion? Sovereign even despises Geth according to Saren.



As for the a reapers humoring TIM, that's a huge risk on their part, letting him tinker with indoctrination.

Yet they allowed Saren to also tinker with indoctrination. Why? Because it benefits them.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Starscream on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:25 pm

ElSuperGecko wrote:I'd say Control is possible, but not in the way TIM expects or believe it to be.

It's fairly clear from the EC slides and Shepard's dialogue that the AI that controls the Reapers is not actually Shepard. It is an artificial being created from Shepard's memories, and thoughts. How much of Shepard's own personality and will remains is, however, questionable.

So how does Control work, then? Simple. Shepard is uploaded into a Reaper body. He becomes the new Harbinger. The rest of the Reaper fleet bows down to him, follows his instructions and orders, on the behalf of the Catalyst.

So you see - the Catalyst does not lie. Control is possible. Shepard does essentially end up comanding the Reapers... however, the manner in which he Controls the Reapers may not be what people believe it to be, or hope it to be.


I don't think Shepard is uploaded in a reaper body in the (literal) Control ending. It seems much more likely that Shepard, in Control, creates an AI copy of himself that replaces the Catalyst.

The Shepard AI we see in the Control epilogue is the new Catalyst.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:28 pm

Humakt83 wrote:
Steelcan wrote:

Sovereign thinks of himself as synthetic, so I'd imagine the other reapers do as well.


What made you come to such a conclusion? Sovereign even despises Geth according to Saren.



As for the a reapers humoring TIM, that's a huge risk on their part, letting him tinker with indoctrination.

Yet they allowed Saren to also tinker with indoctrination. Why? Because it benefits them.
Saren studied indoctrination, he wasn't looking for a way to control them. He studied so he could find out how long until he was a drooling idiot.

And Sovereign is dismissive of the geth because he knows he isn't a god, he's not angry at them for being synthetic.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:29 pm

CorranusMaximus wrote:
Eryri wrote:Their organic side only comes out in their construction, nowhere else. Sovereign thinks of himself as synthetic, so I'd imagine the other reapers do as well. As for the a reapers humoring TIM, that's a huge risk on their part, letting him tinker with indoctrination.

Reaper's body is purely synthetic and organic material serves only as a resource to create Reaper's "brain". They don't bleed, we never saw any part of a Reaper that might be even partially organic, it's always some kind of metal "walls", "cables" and such. Remeber interior of the Derelict Reaper? Yeah, no organic stuff inside...except husks...and some dead bodies.

Unless...they can somehow convert organic material to create metal or whatever that stuff is that the Reapers are made of. Seems impossible, but I'm no scientist so I don't know. >,< Ideas?
You can rearrange molecules so they can become different things. Example, the Reaper hulls can be made from the carbon melted down from the organics that constructed it, then through an electrical current or a similar process that carbon is rerarranged to have the same density as diamond, giving it a metal-like look in the process.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Starscream on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:30 pm

ElSuperGecko wrote:
solidsnake78 wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:

Did you miss the part where we learn that the tools to doing it was essentially supplied by Sovereign?
. So? Cerberus reused Reaper Tech in all likely hood

And all reaper tech does what people...

Garrus: "Nothing good ever came from Reaper tech..."

I can't believe Garrus said that. When does he say that?

It's completely wrong of course. Reaper tech gave us Thanix Canons, a turian invention based on the remains of Sovereign. Garrus of all people should know that.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Maximus on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:45 pm

Selim Bradley wrote:
CorranusMaximus wrote:
Eryri wrote:Their organic side only comes out in their construction, nowhere else. Sovereign thinks of himself as synthetic, so I'd imagine the other reapers do as well. As for the a reapers humoring TIM, that's a huge risk on their part, letting him tinker with indoctrination.

Reaper's body is purely synthetic and organic material serves only as a resource to create Reaper's "brain". They don't bleed, we never saw any part of a Reaper that might be even partially organic, it's always some kind of metal "walls", "cables" and such. Remeber interior of the Derelict Reaper? Yeah, no organic stuff inside...except husks...and some dead bodies.

Unless...they can somehow convert organic material to create metal or whatever that stuff is that the Reapers are made of. Seems impossible, but I'm no scientist so I don't know. >,< Ideas?
You can rearrange molecules so they can become different things. Example, the Reaper hulls can be made from the carbon melted down from the organics that constructed it, then through an electrical current or a similar process that carbon is rerarranged to have the same density as diamond, giving it a metal-like look in the process.

You lying! You look like a Starkid, and i don't believe in your crap! <joke> ;>
Well, interesting, but Reapers are melting bodies of harvested spieces to have DNA paste from them. Would they use DNA to create Reaper's body? That possible? That would mean that Reapers have DNA too? I'm confused!

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:50 pm

CorranusMaximus wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
CorranusMaximus wrote:
Eryri wrote:Their organic side only comes out in their construction, nowhere else. Sovereign thinks of himself as synthetic, so I'd imagine the other reapers do as well. As for the a reapers humoring TIM, that's a huge risk on their part, letting him tinker with indoctrination.

Reaper's body is purely synthetic and organic material serves only as a resource to create Reaper's "brain". They don't bleed, we never saw any part of a Reaper that might be even partially organic, it's always some kind of metal "walls", "cables" and such. Remeber interior of the Derelict Reaper? Yeah, no organic stuff inside...except husks...and some dead bodies.

Unless...they can somehow convert organic material to create metal or whatever that stuff is that the Reapers are made of. Seems impossible, but I'm no scientist so I don't know. >,< Ideas?
You can rearrange molecules so they can become different things. Example, the Reaper hulls can be made from the carbon melted down from the organics that constructed it, then through an electrical current or a similar process that carbon is rerarranged to have the same density as diamond, giving it a metal-like look in the process.

You lying! You look like a Starkid, and i don't believe in your crap! <joke> ;>
Well, interesting, but Reapers are melting bodies of harvested spieces to have DNA paste from them. Would they use DNA to create Reaper's body? That possible? That would mean that Reapers have DNA too? I'm confused!
How dare you compare me to that failure of an evil child! Angry :stick:
They probably don't, but all I was doing was answering your question of is it possible to convert organic matter into synthetic matteror not, in which the answer is yes though it's very tricky.
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Steelcan on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:55 am

Hrothdane wrote:I just realized something:

Abominations are essentially explosive husks, right? What if the pre-Collector indoctrinated Protheans managed to learn how to "control" husks as well, and the abominations are what we see of that?

The Reapers might try to bait everyone with the control idea the same way.
Do explain that one
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Maximus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:03 pm

Steelcan wrote:
Hrothdane wrote:I just realized something:

Abominations are essentially explosive husks, right? What if the pre-Collector indoctrinated Protheans managed to learn how to "control" husks as well, and the abominations are what we see of that?

The Reapers might try to bait everyone with the control idea the same way.
Do explain that one

Damn, you're right! Why i never thought about that? This only confirms my theory about Cerberus being new generation of Collectors! They learned how to create and control husks! They're abducting Humans, experiment on them, liquify them. They are servants to the Reapers! And The Illusive Man is their General. Hmm... what if He upgraded himself with Reaper implants to control his troops same way as Collector General did?! IT Confirmed! ;>

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:48 pm

I posted this on another thread, but then I remembered this thread:

Cerberus' development is completely analogous to the Collectors. I think people who complain about 'hurr Derperus evil Sith empire' just fail to see that.

In ME3 they have completely taken over the Collectors' role. They have been 'improved' and 'integrated', and are even 'collecting' humans on Sanctuary.

Same damn thing, completely analogous to the Prothean splinter group who wanted to control the Reapers, and turned out to be indoctrinated.

It's a matter of pattern recognition, IMO.

It should be obvious that the Reapers -want- people to think they can be controlled. They'll start to study reaper tech, and as a result, the joke is on them.

It's a recurring theme in ME. Those who want to control or enslave, end up being controlled or enslaved. Just look at Project Overlord, etcetera.

I really don't understand anyone who thinks control is a legit possibility.

Shepard: What went wrong with the experiment?
Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.
Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.


This is exactly what you do in Control: try to give the Reapers a genuine Shepard consciousness.

This is also one of the main reasons I believe indoctrination will be eventually revealed.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Terramine on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:13 pm

Not many compelling arguments that it is possible... my personal stance is that it MIGHT be possible but even if it was there is still many reasons not to pick it. Bioware will not make control the best option, at best they'll make it possible like umadcommander said by siding with the real IM. In which case why would you do it? At this point there would be a way to destroy the Reapers without sacrificing the Geth and EDI... Which would mean you'd have to want to keep the Reapers around if you choose Control.

Some people head canon Control=Destroy without major sacrifices because they fly the Reapers into a black hole or whatever. But if you have a destroy that doesn't kill EDI and the Geth then there is no need for head canon. So you must want to keep the Reapers around for the sake of power and advancement. In which case I will direct you to my topic involving Reverse-Engineering.

I honestly believe that ANY Reverse-Engineering is bad because it circumvents natural progress which seems to always end badly. The only time you should do it is if it is at least arguably necessary... Keeping the Reapers around just so you could jump ahead in advancement a trillion fold will have beyond dire consequences. Like entering a Singularity when you aren't ready for it, likely resulting in actions as bad as the Reaper cycle.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Maximus on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:46 am

IronicParticle wrote:At this point there would be a way to destroy the Reapers without sacrificing the Geth and EDI... Which would mean you'd have to want to keep the Reapers around if you choose Control.

I don't even know why people have problems with sacrificing EDI and Geth. They're SYNTHETICS! They shouldn't even exist, they're against nature and should be wiped out once and for all along with the Reapers! So what if u like Legion or EDI? They're still synthetics and they would kill Shepard, his crew and entire galaxy if Reapers would change single "0" in "101010010111010110101101011" to "1".
That's beyond stupid to even trust a synthetic. They have no "soul", no emotions, no love, no empathy, no beliefs. Just Hardware and Software!
They're not even alive. Machines are created to SERVE, to do the hard work. If they start asking about "soul" - wipe them out as fast as you can coz shit is gonna get really serious, really quick! We saw that already in Matrix, Terminator, Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, Sci-Fi in general.
If you allow Synthetics to evolve, to create an AI which allows them to "think", then you're digging your own grave, buddy!

P.S. - I'm disgusted with Joker in ME3. To even think about having some kind of love relationship with a machine and have sex with it... Synthesis!

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:54 am

CorranusMaximus wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:At this point there would be a way to destroy the Reapers without sacrificing the Geth and EDI... Which would mean you'd have to want to keep the Reapers around if you choose Control.

I don't even know why people have problems with sacrificing EDI and Geth. They're SYNTHETICS! They shouldn't even exist, they're against nature and should be wiped out once and for all along with the Reapers! So what if u like Legion or EDI? They're still synthetics and they would kill Shepard, his crew and entire galaxy if Reapers would change single "0" in "101010010111010110101101011" to "1".
That's beyond stupid to even trust a synthetic. They have no "soul", no emotions, no love, no empathy, no beliefs. Just Hardware and Software!
They're not even alive. Machines are created to SERVE, to do the hard work. If they start asking about "soul" - wipe them out as fast as you can coz shit is gonna get really serious, really quick! We saw that already in Matrix, Terminator, Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, Sci-Fi in general.
If you allow Synthetics to evolve, to create an AI which allows them to "think", then you're digging your own grave, buddy!

P.S. - I'm disgusted with Joker in ME3. To even think about having some kind of love relationship with a machine and have sex with it... Synthesis!

Sorry but I just don't agree. Once fully realized an AI has just as much right to exist as any Organic reason being that our brains, everything that makes us, us (I don't believe in the existence of a soul) can be recreated in a computer down to the tiniest detail if given enough time and power.

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Maximus on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:25 pm

RaistlinMajare wrote:Sorry but I just don't agree. Once fully realized an AI has just as much right to exist as any Organic reason being that our brains, everything that makes us, us (I don't believe in the existence of a soul) can be recreated in a computer down to the tiniest detail if given enough time and power.

Might as well jump into the Synthesis Beam....
Synthesis yourself! ;>

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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by BleedingUranium on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:45 pm

Reaper tech indoctrinates via infrasound. Even if the Relays could indoctrinate, they wouldn't be able to because sound doesn't travel in space.

Also reverse engineering Reaper tech =/= using Reapers tech. Partly because what we create won't indoctrinate, and because by understanding it and possibly modifying it we're no longer advancing along the paths they desire.

Raistlin Majere wrote:Sorry but I just don't agree. Once fully realized an AI has just as much right to exist as any Organic reason being that our brains, everything that makes us, us (I don't believe in the existence of a soul) can be recreated in a computer down to the tiniest detail if given enough time and power.

Agreed. There's as much meaningful difference between organics and synthetics as there is between Humans and Asari/Hanar/Vorcha, or a white and black human. The amount of meaningful difference is none. Sapient life is sapient life.

Humakt83 wrote:
Illusive Man: "Have a little faith."

Illusive Man: "Because... I need you to believe."

Isn't it interesting that every single one of your allies uses the word "hope", and they do it all the time, while TIM's word of choice is "faith"?
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Re: Is Control Possible

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:07 pm

CorranusMaximus wrote:
RaistlinMajare wrote:Sorry but I just don't agree. Once fully realized an AI has just as much right to exist as any Organic reason being that our brains, everything that makes us, us (I don't believe in the existence of a soul) can be recreated in a computer down to the tiniest detail if given enough time and power.

Might as well jump into the Synthesis Beam....
Synthesis yourself! ;>

Hey I never said i supported a "union of flesh and steel." Diversity is a good thing, including Synthetic / Organic diversity. I ma just saying that I consider a fully realized AI to be worth as much as any living person. Granted it did not stop me from picking Destroy, but that was because I saw Control as too risky and Synthesis as an abomination.

Had destroy killed all Humans, Quarians, Turians, whatever species you might think (though not all at once off course) I would still have picked Destroy. Not an easy choice but it is the only one I saw as the right choice.

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