The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

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What is your opinion about Refuse and the possibilities with IT (multiple votes possible)?

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Total Votes : 137

Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Restrider on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:52 am

IronicParticle wrote:
-snip-

Edit: The thing is, is that we have to think solely on what is Shepard's resolve. Indoctrination's goal is to change your resolve, so the best way out is of course to help Shepard stick to his/her resolve. I doubt the Player decides what Shepard's resolve is, because that would mean there is no indoctrination ending... because if it's up to the player, then Synthesis can be Shepard's resolve. That would ruin the genius behind the concept of IT... there is supposed to be the risk of getting indoctrinated >.>
I agree on most of what you have posted.
But I think you have to think it backwards.
Shepard represents the players and if this players is indoctrinated, so is Shepard.

But I take it that way that you are arguing that Shepard from the get-go was never pro-Synthesis. And I agree.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Restrider on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:57 am

Food for thought:

In three endings, Shepard is disintegrated. In two of these endings, you can clearly see huskified skin and eyes.
Maybe this is a sign of leaving the hallucination as yourself (Destroy) or a Reaper agent/slave (Control/Synthesis).

In Refuse you are not disintegrated...

In Synthesis, the beam really increases in intensity.
In Control, the beam stays the same.
In Destroy, the beam is violently disrupted and turned off.
In Refuse, the beam is turned off in a less violent way.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by AxStapleton on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:21 pm

Restrider wrote:Food for thought:

In three endings, Shepard is disintegrated. In two of these endings, you can clearly see huskified skin and eyes.
Maybe this is a sign of leaving the hallucination as yourself (Destroy) or a Reaper agent/slave (Control/Synthesis).

In Refuse you are not disintegrated...

In Synthesis, the beam really increases in intensity.
In Control, the beam stays the same.
In Destroy, the beam is violently disrupted and turned off.
In Refuse, the beam is turned off in a less violent way.

I guess Refuse could be seen as beating indoctrination but not with the force to break out of the illusion. This doesn't mean that this ending is dead from an IT perspective. Perhaps it is a case of requiring outside help to come out of it.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:51 am

AxStapleton wrote:*snip*

Is waking up necessarily a good thing? Shepard IS in bad condition, so technically they should wake up recovering compared to being forced awake without any rest. Which would mean, just as Destroy violently attacks the beam... It also forces Shepard to violently wake up. Which is not a good thing >.>

I believe Shepard will be safe depending on EMS, not based on choices. The only thing choices should effect are Shepard, and if destroy violently effects things then that doesn't sound good for Shepard.

@Restrider: You have a good point, but then how does that apply to all players? People only pick Destroy because the narrative shoves it down your throat. While Refuse is an exact echo of the players in real life pre-EC...

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by BleedingUranium on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:48 am

AxStapleton wrote:I guess Refuse could be seen as beating indoctrination but not with the force to break out of the illusion. This doesn't mean that this ending is dead from an IT perspective. Perhaps it is a case of requiring outside help to come out of it.

That's exactly my take on it.
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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by BleedingUranium on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:52 am

IronicParticle wrote:People only pick Destroy because the narrative shoves it down your throat. While Refuse is an exact echo of the players in real life pre-EC...

That's the point, the narrative supports Destroy, it's what literally every ally supports. And Refuse is an echo, for the most part, or players who didn't understand what was going on. This obviously doesn't apply to the people here, but most people wanted to not pick a choice because they hated the kid/Bioware/the "crappy" endings, which are all meta reasons.
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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:50 am

BleedingUranium wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:*snip
*snip*
If Shepard represents the players, Destroy cannot possibly be OUR ending, because if it was then Bioware assumed too much about what our resolve is.

The narrative doesn't inherently make Shepard's resolve, in fact the Narrative even goes to show that Shepard is just going with what he HAS to do rather than what he thinks he SHOULD do. I am not even that much of a Refuse supporter, I'm just trying to challenge the notion that Destroy is Shepard's resolve for the sake of us figuring out what actually is his/her resolve. When talking with Liara about it in the war map room, he/she doesn't exactly seem very happy with the idea when asked about it.

Even 1 shred of evidence that Shepard is just "borrowing" the resolve of his friends destroys the connection to any evidence that Destroy is his/her resolve. Yet there is likely more than just arrival and common sense to show that Shepard is just listening to his/her friends. Nor is it answered..... Who represents Refuse in Shepard's subconscious?

Synthesis: Reapers aka Catalyst
Control: TIM
Destroy: Anderson
Refuse: ???????????

Candidates for refuse:
-Shepard
-Keepers lol
-Dead Coats (totally legit :3)

"I'm going to end this war on MY terms" What I find interesting here, is Shepard ACKNOWLEDGES their terms to ending the war... are not on display currently. This is bluntly saying Destroy, as we see it presented here, is not Shepard's resolve?

"I fight for freedom, mine and EVERYONE'S." Shepard is not willing to sacrifice the Geth? I mean, he/she wouldn't treat the freedom of the Geth any less deserving than the rest of the Galaxy?

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Restrider on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:15 pm

Can we even say that Shepard has any form of resolve?
Of course it is hinted that Destroy is Shepard's resolve through the dialogue between Shepard and Harbinger at the end of The Arrival DLC.
However, there have also been situations of Shepard depicting the importance of self-determinism.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Davik Kang on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:35 pm

Yo Restrider as much as I love your polls I can't vote on this one because I can't check any of the boxes, don't agree w any of them.

About the general Refuse discussion, I have been pretty short with Refusers in the past but I can see the arguments for preferring it, especially in light of veering away from using a superweapon of mass destrcution (Crucible is ME's Atomic Bomb), or in terms of not wanting to trust the Reapers, or in terms of trying to get the indoctrinating presence out of your head.

But to counter the claim that Shepard is the protagonist for Refuse becuase s/he says "...MY terms..." - this is on the terms of the player's Shepard, not Shepard generally. It makes total sense to use this language when Shepard is dignifying the choice to Refuse: in fact it wouldn't make sense without this kind of wording. Refuse is the only truly independent choice because each of the others has conditions that are presumably set by the Crucible and explained only through the Kid. But it only makes sense for a Shepard committed to Refuse. Shep's personality is set by your choices and at this moment it's no different, it doesn't matter what the unused dialogue options are.

Hope that make sense, if I went further I'd basically just rewrite the above in a different order.

[EDIT: edited for extra wordiness anyway]


Last edited by Davik Kang on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by AxStapleton on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:36 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
AxStapleton wrote:*snip*

*snip*

The reason that I'd step back from Refuse being better is that it was put in for reasons outside the game. Many people didn't like any of the three choices. So Bioware put it in to service those complaints even if it wasn't exactly what they wanted.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Restrider on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:54 pm

@ Davik Kang What option would you add to the poll then?

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by BleedingUranium on Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:01 am

AxStapleton wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
AxStapleton wrote:*snip*

*snip*

The reason that I'd step back from Refuse being better is that it was put in for reasons outside the game. Many people didn't like any of the three choices. So Bioware put it in to service those complaints even if it wasn't exactly what they wanted.
That too.
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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Restrider on Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:59 pm

BleedingUranium wrote:
AxStapleton wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
AxStapleton wrote:*snip*

*snip*

The reason that I'd step back from Refuse being better is that it was put in for reasons outside the game. Many people didn't like any of the three choices. So Bioware put it in to service those complaints even if it wasn't exactly what they wanted.
That too.
The question still remains what they are going to do with Refuse if some IT-content is revealed that adds to the story?
I sincerely hope that they do not just forget it or do not expand on it.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:18 am

@Restrider: Actually that dialogue is not inherently in favor of destroy. You have 3 choices:
-We will not go quietly.(This does not support destroy, Shepard says they will find a way which means we will find our solution and thus is in support for self determination.)

-The Project is a warning shot.(Couldn't find a video or anything on it... But I'd believe this makes more sense for a Renegade than the "no cost is too great" one.)

-No cost is too great.(Literally, so that means Synthesis. We thus can say this isn't Shepard's resolve)

Shepard didn't sacrifice a whole species, nor was there another way. From Shepard's viewpoint there is 4 different options at the ending, so there was definitely multiple ways to handle it while in Arrival there was literally only 1 way. There wasn't even absurd solutions, not even an equivalent to Synthesis lol. If Shepard doesn't have a resolve, then doesn't that mean all of the choices results in indoctrination? Because they are all a change in resolve if Shepard has no resolve :P

@AxStapleton: They could've easily made all 3 vanilla choices result in indoctrination, there is nothing wrong with this. Raistlin Majere had said they would be pissed, but the problem with that is... it's hypocritical and selfish. What about Synthesis and Control supporters? Wouldn't they be pissed if this whole time their "best" options were really the worse choices possible and Destroy supporters were right the whole time when they bullied them?

Furthermore what are you talking about outside of the game? The EC did not shut up most people, a good few people think the ending is better but most still seem to reject the endings completely. Bioware would not fail so horribly if their intention was to calm people down and get some people to stick around a little longer.

Then as Restrider points out... the future of the Refuse ending comes into question. While a good portion of people still don't like the endings, a good portion of people also have decided Refuse is their preferred ending now. How many people will be pissed about it being rendered completely inert? Also the EC seems to also have loads of stuff in it that supports IT, lots of which was seemingly benign otherwise. Proving there is highly likely other intentions behind the EC than "outside game reasons".

The true intentions behind Refuse are likely more than you think, it completely sacrificed trust in what Bioware says because for all intents and purposes it proved they lie... "no new endings" my ass. Worst case scenario it's a little worse than destroy, best case scenario the EC has added in things that foreshadow what we will get in a Reveal with little samples of it making Refuse the best ending. I support destroy the most personally, but it'd also make perfect sense if Shepard's resolve is self-determinism. After all, the biggest things wrong with the Reapers, their cycle, their technology, etc is that it is all going against freedom. By supporting the Reapers you oppose freedom, by opposing the Reapers you support freedom. The current conflict is one between Submission and Freedom, in that case Shepard is the biggest supporter of freedom in the Galaxy at least regardless of resolve.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:27 am

Dang, did I top my biggest wall again? lol

It is curious as to why Shepard seems to do nothing and is disappointed. However Refuse starts earlier than most people realize, it starts when you first say "no" so to speak. Refuse isn't entirely out of place nor entirely irrelevant, because part of it involves Shepard saying no to all of the choices individually and gives perfectly logical and relevant reasons why.

An example is Synthesis where Shepard says "I can't make that decision", referring to forcing it on everyone. This reflects things the Players have said, and while it's something the Players have complained about... it also IS relevant and definitely is not missing the point. Same goes for what Shepard says about Control and Destroy.

Maybe Refuse is both the best ending, and a manifestation of the Player's irrelevant and relevant complaints. It's possible that Refuse in the EC is intentionally telling them that they've got it wrong, and that it will evolve into the more relevant version in a Reveal. The Players say "no" to the crucible pretty much... so where is this "my own terms" and crap come from? This isn't the Players talking, it's Shepard. Everyone first chose it because they didn't want to use the crucible, not because they wanted to do it on their own terms per sey. The Players would be willing to use something else that isn't on their terms, as long as it wasn't the nonsense that was the Crucible.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Restrider on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:47 pm

Here is a thought I have had recently:

Haven't the devs/writers said that they take player feedback seriously, but try to write the story in a way that will surprise the player?

I am not talking about menial things such as a few "Calibrations" jokes!

As far as I know, Refuse has been a suggestion made by the players. Even using Liara's capsule was suggested (I think that angry pro-ITer mentioned it in one of his videos). However, most people wanted to reject the Guardian's choices, but still be able to pull off a victory.

Now, the devs/writers used this feedback, but created something that ended differently as most people would've expected. That's why Refuse is mostly considered as BW giving us "the middle finger".

If we assume that this is BW's normal MO, then disencouraging any and all forms of IT is exactly what lies in their intention, if they planned to incorporate it.

Of course the question remains unanswered if Refuse was a creation due to fan feedback or already planned for a later reveal, but was then implemented without a positive outcome (basically quoting Puzzle Theory here)?

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by BleedingUranium on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:42 am

Refuse would be not activating the Project. Even if the player is almost never given the option not to do something, Shepard always does.

If refusing to activate the Project isn't counted as an option, then neither should refusing to activate the Crucible.
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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:54 am

@Restrider: "Of course the question remains unanswered if Refuse was a creation due to fan feedback or already planned for a later reveal, but was then implemented without a positive outcome (basically quoting Puzzle Theory here)?"

It could be both, answering questions and also being planned for a later reveal. Thinking about it now, having more than 1 intention is a good way to mask another of said intentions you don't want people to realize. Basically it seems like it's for answering questions right now possibly to cover up that it is for a reveal. The EC seems to have multiple hidden intentions as I've pointed out in the Coats thread I made. It seems they've added loads of stuff that actually supports IT, and even stuff that seems like it's foreshadowing something, some of which seems flawed or completely pointless otherwise.

Also it seems weird they'd bluntly lie to everyone like that without having a better reason. "no new endings"...

@Blur: What project are you talking about? I am personally convinced the crucible is a trap, even if it works legitimately outside of Shepard's subconscious, it's still a trap when Shepard enters that mind world. Considering they seem to lead Shepard there? I mean the "child" in the dream says "please come home". All in all if you look at the evidence in support, there is no way in hell the Reapers are doing anything but TRYING to get Shepard there.

While I personally support Destroy, at the same time one must ask why activating the Crucible is what needs to be done? Activating it at all could result in indoctrination. You are right, refuse does not activate the Crucible... so what if that's pretty much saying that Shepard's resolve does not change? If the crucible is really an indoctrination trap, which it VERY highly likely is, then activating it is like walking into the trap.

However Destroy may not be considered activation either... Destroying something does not activate it, it breaks it, so it's likely that Destroy sabotages the trap.

In fact both Destroy and Refuse could be considered equal choices. Destroy sabotages the trap, and refuse never triggers the trap. So all in all both avoid falling for the trap of changing resolve. This is assuming that Destroy doesn't trigger the trap, because it's still possible that since this is all inside Shepard's head that shooting the tube DOES activate the trap... the subconscious doesn't usually try to be logical, rather it is symbolic.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:59 am

i'm a massive fan of refuse. I pick destroy most of the time, but can fully understand the attraction of refusing a choice given to you by a reaper. Refusal for me is taking the three choices as a lie (pretty much like everything the starbrat tells you) and crying 'bullshit'

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by AxStapleton on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

IronicParticle wrote:Dang, did I top my biggest wall again? lol

It is curious as to why Shepard seems to do nothing and is disappointed. However Refuse starts earlier than most people realize, it starts when you first say "no" so to speak. Refuse isn't entirely out of place nor entirely irrelevant, because part of it involves Shepard saying no to all of the choices individually and gives perfectly logical and relevant reasons why.

An example is Synthesis where Shepard says "I can't make that decision", referring to forcing it on everyone. This reflects things the Players have said, and while it's something the Players have complained about... it also IS relevant and definitely is not missing the point. Same goes for what Shepard says about Control and Destroy.

Maybe Refuse is both the best ending, and a manifestation of the Player's irrelevant and relevant complaints. It's possible that Refuse in the EC is intentionally telling them that they've got it wrong, and that it will evolve into the more relevant version in a Reveal. The Players say "no" to the crucible pretty much... so where is this "my own terms" and crap come from? This isn't the Players talking, it's Shepard. Everyone first chose it because they didn't want to use the crucible, not because they wanted to do it on their own terms per sey. The Players would be willing to use something else that isn't on their terms, as long as it wasn't the nonsense that was the Crucible.

That leaves the question of the breath scene and why it still only happens in the High EMS Destroy and not in Refuse. I'm certainly not of the opinion they would overlook something like that for no reason. Remember, in the original endings, this was the point a lot of people genuinely thought something fishy was up.

I've certainly not given up on Refuse (and quite possibly Control) having a way out. Though I'm just not convinced how I could call it the best case scenario at this point without more information.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:58 pm

AxStapleton wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:*snip*

That leaves the question of the breath scene and why it still only happens in the High EMS Destroy and not in Refuse. I'm certainly not of the opinion they would overlook something like that for no reason. Remember, in the original endings, this was the point a lot of people genuinely thought something fishy was up.

I've certainly not given up on Refuse (and quite possibly Control) having a way out. Though I'm just not convinced how I could call it the best case scenario at this point without more information.
Except one must also ask why the hell the breathe scene has Shepard wearing his dream armor? That armor is part of the dream due to all the different armors your Shepard could be wearing. Plus Restrider is absolutely right, if in fact there was a breathe scene in Refuse... it would make Refuse a lazy reveal. It would be a reveal unto itself even if lacking a lot of content.

It can be the best as long as Shepard doesn't change his/her resolve. I doubt canon would have Shepard willing to sacrifice ANYTHING, because that would mean he'd be willing to choose Synthesis. Yet Destroy sacrifices the Geth.

Arrival was something that couldn't be helped, there was only 1 option. Whereas now there is 4 options as far as Shepard is concerned. I don't think Shepard, the HERO of the Galaxy would sacrifice so much just for survival when there is other options... considering he scolds the Geth for being submissive rather than choosing to be free.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Restrider on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:22 pm

Right now the only thing I can do is acknowledge and support most of your points depicted in your last posts, Ironic.
I couldn't have said it better.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by AxStapleton on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:46 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
AxStapleton wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:*snip*

*snip*
Except one must also ask why the hell the breathe scene has Shepard wearing his dream armor? That armor is part of the dream due to all the different armors your Shepard could be wearing. Plus Restrider is absolutely right, if in fact there was a breathe scene in Refuse... it would make Refuse a lazy reveal. It would be a reveal unto itself even if lacking a lot of content.

It can be the best as long as Shepard doesn't change his/her resolve. I doubt canon would have Shepard willing to sacrifice ANYTHING, because that would mean he'd be willing to choose Synthesis. Yet Destroy sacrifices the Geth.

Arrival was something that couldn't be helped, there was only 1 option. Whereas now there is 4 options as far as Shepard is concerned. I don't think Shepard, the HERO of the Galaxy would sacrifice so much just for survival when there is other options... considering he scolds the Geth for being submissive rather than choosing to be free.

I have to counter with the fact that a Renegade Shepard is willing to sacrifice a lot to get the job done. As much as there is a core "Shepard", there is still player choice involved. They could condemn the Krogan to slowly rot away just to get the support of the better armed fleets and advanced scientists of the Salarians . They could allow the Quarians to wipe out the Geth which would very much limit the cost of Destroy to almost nothing at all. In this scenario, Destroy couldn't be much of a deviation from this Shepard's "resolve". To start declaring almost every decision that the player has ever made as having to be dictated by a "canon" would cut out one of the most important aspects of the game to many people, choice, or at the very least, the illusion of choice. Its why I bought ME 1,2 and 3. Because without IT, my opinion is that the 3 games don't have a particularly complex plot.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:41 pm

Also, Shepard isn't necessarily wearing 'the dream armour'. Even though the laser actually never full-on hit Shepard, I imagine his armour got pretty scorched from the blast, even if the whole trip to the Citadel was just in his head.

I don't see that as significant at all.

Plus, you have to take into account that while the tube was exploding in the illusion, in the real world, something else may have blown up or shot him, which caused the damage to the armour. (If we're thinking 'reality overlay')

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:30 am

@DD: Except, in order for that to be true... the person has to be wearing the default N7 armor. In reality, there would be a difference between a scorched default N7 armor and a scorched Serrice Council or Kassa Fabrication Armor.

@AxStapleton: You oppose the possibility this hallucination only has 1 right option. Which is hypocritical because there is loads of people willing to choose Synthesis, and you are telling them that their wrong for choosing it. There must be a canon resolve otherwise Shepard cannot get out... unless ALL of the options break Shepard free from indoctrination, but this is impossible because Synthesis. My question is, is why would you be pure Renegade? I can see a lot of the Renegade choices making sense. However the purest Renegade is a sociopath who is also irrational, so the person who is the purest Renegade either is doing it just for fun... or they actually need some help. Any sane healthy person would be mixed if their playing based on their own viewpoints. Why in the hell would batshit Sociopathy lead you to actually winning?

If you are willing to sacrifice anything, then that includes Synthesis... especially since a person who has been the purest Renegade, has already done way worse than Synthesis. Technically because you can get forced to pick Control, I'd say the Player CAN actually make decisions that betray an actual canon resolve.

Control in this situation is an indoctrination choice, even if Control becomes valid after the indoc attempt. The choices before you are not legit, they do not do what they say they do, so Control in this situation is most definitely going to indoctrinate. Yet there is a choice in the previous game that forces you to pick it :l

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

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