The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

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What is your opinion about Refuse and the possibilities with IT (multiple votes possible)?

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Total Votes : 137

Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by draconian139 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:18 pm

Well several of those quotes are equally applicable to refuse. Refuse IS continuing to fight. Refuse IS seeking destruction of the Reapers. The wake up and breath quotes have merit though and are only applicable to destroy.
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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:21 pm

@Restrider Good point, but it's only when Shepard decides on an actual resolve does he/she leave from what we see. So I'm still curious what that means for Shepard if he/she is forced awake like you are suggesting.

Indoctrination rewrites the brain, so it may be possible that Destroy is the best way out because you metaphorically choose to have your brain wired the way it's "supposed" to be. While in refuse Shepard stays exactly the same, meaning the "rewiring" hasn't change? You also said it may not be the best way out, and I'm inclined to take such a stance at best.

I think it'd make sense if:
Synthesis=Indoctrinated and need to be put out of your misery by the hands of a friend or loved one.
Control=Indoctrinated, but capable of shooting yourself.
Refusal:Resisting indoctrination.
Destroy:Completely reject indoctrination.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Restrider on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:29 pm

IronicParticle wrote:@Restrider Good point, but it's only when Shepard decides on an actual resolve does he/she leave from what we see. So I'm still curious what that means for Shepard if he/she is forced awake like you are suggesting.

Indoctrination rewrites the brain, so it may be possible that Destroy is the best way out because you metaphorically choose to have your brain wired the way it's "supposed" to be. While in refuse Shepard stays exactly the same, meaning the "rewiring" hasn't change? You also said it may not be the best way out, and I'm inclined to take such a stance at best.

I think it'd make sense if:
Synthesis=Indoctrinated and need to be put out of your misery by the hands of a friend or loved one.
Control=Indoctrinated, but capable of shooting yourself.
Refusal:Resisting indoctrination.
Destroy:Completely reject indoctrination.

Yes. Personally I am not the one arguing that Refuse is better than Destroy or the only way out. I can see the reasoning behind that,
but I am not convinced of it.
To the wiring question:
If we assume that the indoctrination manifests itself permanently when you choose either Control or Synthesis, Refuse leaves you in a vulnarable state, yet not indoctrinated, while Destroy lets you leave the hallucination mentally stable?
I know others argue that Refuse leaves you mentally unharmed (however vaporized by Harbinger), while in Destroy you break free, but your mind is still tainted.
But how the endings could play out as you pointed out has been something Raistlin, others and I have come up with. You could also take EMS into account.

@DD Yes, I know most of the quotes and I am not trying to debate the Destroy vs. Refuse logic (however, others are encouraged to do this here!).
But as pointed out on the top comment on this page, Refuse - taking into account the speech and shooting the kid - show that the will to fight still exists (maybe even more than in Destroy). Hargh... I can't really argue the derailing fo Shep's intent though. The speech seems only to make sense, if Shepard somehow knew that something is off.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:14 am

Restrider wrote:@DD Yes, I know most of the quotes and I am not trying to debate the Destroy vs. Refuse logic (however, others are encouraged to do this here!).
But as pointed out on the top comment on this page, Refuse - taking into account the speech and shooting the kid - show that the will to fight still exists (maybe even more than in Destroy). Hargh... I can't really argue the derailing fo Shep's intent though. The speech seems only to make sense, if Shepard somehow knew that something is off.

Yeah, no worries, I understand completely.

I feel like making refuse succesful would be too easy of a victory. It would be 'winning without taking any losses'. I like (and think the game supports the idea) that you need to be able to make some sacrifices, there isn't always an easy way. (Even if it all ends up being an illusion and nobody dies in Destroy, you still need to be able to make that choice, since you can't be sure)

I think destroy teaches the better lesson. You can't always turn the other cheek. There are cases where you need to take a stand, not take any risks.

Legendary speach aside, refuse really feels like a Shepard with a broken will to me.

But yeah, I could be wrong.

One thing that could be seen as foreshadowing that destroy is a trap is when Aria jumps into the trap when going straight for Petrovsky. Which shows that always doing the ruthless thing makes you just as predictable as always wanting to save everyone.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Restrider on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:39 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Yeah, no worries, I understand completely.

I feel like making refuse succesful would be too easy of a victory. It would be 'winning without taking any losses'. I like (and think the game supports the idea) that you need to be able to make some sacrifices, there isn't always an easy way. (Even if it all ends up being an illusion and nobody dies in Destroy, you still need to be able to make that choice, since you can't be sure)

I think destroy teaches the better lesson. You can't always turn the other cheek. There are cases where you need to take a stand, not take any risks.

Legendary speach aside, refuse really feels like a Shepard with a broken will to me.

But yeah, I could be wrong.

One thing that could be seen as foreshadowing that destroy is a trap is when Aria jumps into the trap when going straight for Petrovsky. Which shows that always doing the ruthless thing makes you just as predictable as always wanting to save everyone.

Actually I wouldn't want to have any ending choice without any sacrifice.
I would argue that even High EMS Destroy should at least leave Shepard mentally shaken at least.
And for a successful Refuse, I think it should require an external stimulus to get out of it, such as Rachni Queen, Liara, Shiala/Feros colonists etc...
Who knows...
I think there should be more ways out than one. And these ways - while different at first - should leave to a certain convergence point (with more or less sacrifices needed).

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:49 pm

I KIND of disagree with both of you.

I don't think it's that you CAN'T save everyone, more so that you should be ready in case you can't save everyone. Destroy could save everyone, but it doesn't appear that way so you can't pick it thinking that. The only people willing to pick it have already risked that they won't save everybody alive at that point, that they are willing to make a sacrifice for the greater good if need be.

Also it is already impossible to save everyone anyways... because billions have already died throughout the game. However it should be possible IMO to not lose another person, as paraphrased by Shepard while he/she was taking down the collector base. "Not 1 more"... It's entirely possible we may just do that here. But we shouldn't expect it, and we should be willing to make a sacrifice if we have to, and as a middle ground requires the loss of SOMETHING.

I agree we should make some kind of sacrifice, but what we sacrifice does not have to be limited to lives or Shepard's mentality. Also I would rather Shepard die than become brain damaged or whatever, that would not just be "bittersweet" it'd be a bad kind of mind fuck.

Edit: Not that Shepard can't have mental issues of some kind, heck he/she technically SHOULD have PTSD but his/her will is very strong apparently because he/she clearly does not suffer from PTSD. So if Shep hallucinates thats fine IMO.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:42 am

Wasn't looking for it, but found a quote that supports refuse:

EDI: Shepard, do you believe your crew members should be allowed to disobey an order on moral grounds?

Shepard (Paragon): Absolutely. I have no use for team members who can't think for themselves.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by BleedingUranium on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:05 am

Restrider wrote:Actually I wouldn't want to have any ending choice without any sacrifice.
I would argue that even High EMS Destroy should at least leave Shepard mentally shaken at least.
And for a successful Refuse, I think it should require an external stimulus to get out of it, such as Rachni Queen, Liara, Shiala/Feros colonists etc...
Who knows...
I think there should be more ways out than one. And these ways - while different at first - should leave to a certain convergence point (with more or less sacrifices needed).

I agree with these methods for Refuse to work. Shepard's unable to break free himself, so one of the above people helps him out of the hallucination. I think Refuse should work, but it would have to be worse than Destroy, maybe whoever saves you has to die.
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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by jojon2se on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:30 pm

I see it things the opposite way:

With Destroy, I'd imagine there'd come a point, where a friend has to talk Shepard down, as (s)he is about to kill/destroy somebody/thing important, mistaking them for the enemy.
At this point Shepard would come to think about what the heck (s)he's doing and what intel, and interpretation of intel, decisions are based on -- effectively snapping out of "mild" indoctrination.

The problem I see for a refusing Shepard, is more immediate; your snubbing the reapers entirely, would earn you "kill immediately" status and you'd need some major event preventing Harbinger from finishing you then and there. (whereas he'd allow the Destroy Shep to slip away, thinking he's got some great hooks in your mind.)

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:15 pm

@jojon2se

I don't see why anyone would assume that Destroy is a Reaper trap. The idea that all of the choices is part of the trap has been logically refuted, and the same logic against Destroy can be applied to Refuse in a more believable manner. Reverse psychology could be used to deter Shepard from all of the options if he isn't going to select the 2 Reaper options, aka Refuse could be the reverse psychology.

Some might be offended by this, sorry if that's the case... but think about this: Refuse is the manifestation of what the Players would choose. We hated the idea of the Crucible from a literalist perspective and wanted to win this on our own terms in conventional victory, however everyone who played the EC felt like it was a middle finger at first. First impressions are important, heck a good evidence IMO that Indoctrination was intended is that a huge proportion of players thought Shepard was hallucinating the boy before they even reached the ending. First impressions was that Shepard was Hallucinating, speaking volumes about Bioware's intentions because they made said impressions likely intentionally.

I highly agree with Rifneno that conventional victory is not possible, even if we win in a head on fight it will because of some third party non-conventional thing. I believe people who ever planned for a conventional victory missed the point to the ending, we all must ask ourselves why they defend the endings as "Art". Refuse is thematically nonsensical and random, and in fact from an indoctrination perspective it feels entirely "irrelevant". Remember I am proposing that Refuse misses the point, and if I was to be right.. then wouldn't it present itself as such? What would it feel like to seem like it misses the point? Oh yeah, irrelevance would be the perfect way to do that.

Refuse is the voice of people who reacted to the Endings literally, Bioware said people were missing the point by defending their "Art". I am certain Indoctrination was intended Reveal or no Reveal. If that's the case then Refuse comes off as a manifestation of the thoughts that "missed the point". Do you know how many "fans" were saying they wanted to shoot the child or tell him to fuck off? If Indoctrination is true then telling him to fuck off is beyond missing the point because the ending is a test, you don't flip off your Teacher at school during a test as that's instant failure. You give the correct answer, and flipping them off is not an answer.

I also don't think this is a test being made by the Reapers, so rejecting their 2 choices in a way that isn't "on the paper" so to speak is not also a correct answer. I think this game series is being Meta with us, and that Indoctrination is Bioware's test for the players. There is 4 choices, but only 3 of them have visual representations... much like a multiple choice test has A,B and C. Refuse is not a D because it's not visually represented. In order for it to be D among the A,B and C... it has to be "on the paper" and the equivalence to written words on the paper is the visual representations for 3 of the choices.

Now before anyone bashes me for comparing the options to A,B and C I want to point out that if you look at the whole picture it actually is drastically different from conventional A,B and C choices. My analogy can be valid while Bioware could have still been honest when they addressed the concept of A,B and C endings.

In the larger picture if Bioware makes things depend on other choices throughout the series, like many of us have speculated... one of many examples being the Rachni intervening. Then the ending itself doesn't boil down to A,B and C, it boils down to many complex choices made throughout the Series. This "test" is not the ending itself, in fact nobody here thinks Indoctrination Theory is an ending. It's actually an interpretation that says there is MORE to the ending than meets the eye. When Shepard wakes up the real ending begins, and it will be effected by all that we have done throughout the Series. This A,B and C test is to test you to see if you can realize this all on your own by using your brain to figure it out, and if you do figure it out then you will be rewarded beyond comparison. So Hold the line, answer the test with confidence, and don't care about things that miss the point.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:22 pm

Wow.... largest wall text I've made ever lol

Anyways don't get me wrong, I could be wrong. But I just thought I'd explain why I personally am certain I have figured things out.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Allynna on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:42 pm

I don't think that refuse is the right option and yes, maybe Shepard gives her/his epic speech but, for me it looks more like giving up. "Just let me die already and do as you please." And then there is hope that somebody else will win the war (stargazer scene). Is it just me or the lady in the end looks like an asari?

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:12 pm

Plus actions can speak louder than words, and in an indoctrination attempt actions are equal to words.

Synthesis: The Reapers are right, I am wrong.
Control: Other people are right, I am wrong.
Refuse: Fuck you, I'll die FREE!

Destroy: I am right, I've always been right just like you have always been wrong. You could be beyond my comprehension for all I care because that doesn't make you flawless because you still lack much knowledge. You lack the insight of Empathy, the lack the insight of Values and Standards.

Things you can't store inside a physical hull by melting it into goo, things you can't control, they are things that don't bend around you... you bend around them. So you know what? it's not that we can't comprehend you, it's that you can't comprehend us. You are the one who lacks the insight we have.

You will likely never understand, but one thing you can be certain of is that when I destroy you... I was right, and you were wrong.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by draconian139 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:04 pm

@Ironic, it depends on if your Shepard believes that destroy will actually work or not. If Shepard believes that destroy will destroy the reapers that's one thing, if he doesn't that's another thing entirely. Shepard's showing himself to be susceptible to illusions and hallucinations when he chooses destroy in my opinion even if his goals are directly opposed to the Reaper's. Considering that the child isn't real we've seen that they can make him hallucinate even when awake, they can still use this ability to try to confuse him into doing something harmful to the war effort. I do think you're right that refuse is not an answer available on the Reaper's test, its why I think they'd kill you after taking it. In terms of it being meta, one thing I've wondered is if refuse was thrown in because of just how many people realized it could be an indoctrination attempt originally and so they allowed Shepard to realize its a trap when he couldn't originally.

Then again in my headcanon the galaxy's screwed no matter what Shepard chooses, I think the crucible's a Reaper trap and we've thrown all of our eggs into a vat of acid. Shepard's decision just impacts how many Reapers get destroyed and the chances of the next cycle.
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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by jojon2se on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:39 pm

IronicParticle wrote:Wow.... largest wall text I've made ever lol

Anyways don't get me wrong, I could be wrong. But I just thought I'd explain why I personally am certain I have figured things out.

It gladdens me that you (unlike some others) at least state an unconfrontational intention.
I hope, then, that you will understand that I, too, do not mean to be unfriendly, when I brush your wall of text off as one huge multi-tier strawman argument, which seems to me a good bit more (EDIT: confirmation-) biased than you may think. ( EDIT: ...we all have our preconceptions and naturally speculate and try to read between the lines, regarding the reasoning of others, which is not bad - it's a sign of a measure of empathy, but our personal filters will more than seldom produce results that pretty much amount to pure judgmental conjucture. :))

I fully well expect to be wrong about a great many things, no matter what Bioware does. I do hope they do have great plans for ME3, though. :)

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:40 pm

draconian139 wrote:@Ironic, it depends on if your Shepard believes that destroy will actually work or not. If Shepard believes that destroy will destroy the reapers that's one thing, if he doesn't that's another thing entirely. Shepard's showing himself to be susceptible to illusions and hallucinations when he chooses destroy in my opinion even if his goals are directly opposed to the Reaper's. Considering that the child isn't real we've seen that they can make him hallucinate even when awake, they can still use this ability to try to confuse him into doing something harmful to the war effort. I do think you're right that refuse is not an answer available on the Reaper's test, its why I think they'd kill you after taking it. In terms of it being meta, one thing I've wondered is if refuse was thrown in because of just how many people realized it could be an indoctrination attempt originally and so they allowed Shepard to realize its a trap when he couldn't originally.

Then again in my headcanon the galaxy's screwed no matter what Shepard chooses, I think the crucible's a Reaper trap and we've thrown all of our eggs into a vat of acid. Shepard's decision just impacts how many Reapers get destroyed and the chances of the next cycle.
The only problem with that is the breathe scene... I doubt Shepard is going to get up out of the rubble perfectly fine. My point being how is Shepard walking around shooting Hackett or someone important when he is laying there bleeding and beaten up knocked unconscious on earth? Is he sort of sleep walking? How if we are supposed to believe he can be woken up by outside stimuli? He should have woken up. It makes way more sense that Shepard is laying in rubble beaten up like in the breathe scene.

Right now it makes the most sense to start at the vehicle crash before the beam run. There was likely a trap, possibly a bomb or a reaper from above attacked it? If Shepard is in ruble I highly doubt it's even possible for Destroy to do what you guys claim. Also Shepard is too important to waste him on his squadmates or some random soldiers, he is only an acceptable candidate for something WAY bigger than that.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:08 pm

jojon2se wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:Wow.... largest wall text I've made ever lol

Anyways don't get me wrong, I could be wrong. But I just thought I'd explain why I personally am certain I have figured things out.

It gladdens me that you (unlike some others) at least state an unconfrontational intention.
I hope, then, that you will understand that I, too, do not mean to be unfriendly, when I brush your wall of text off as one huge multi-tier strawman argument, which seems to me a good bit more (EDIT: confirmation-) biased than you may think. ( EDIT: ...we all have our preconceptions and naturally speculate and try to read between the lines, regarding the reasoning of others, which is not bad - it's a sign of a measure of empathy, but our personal filters will more than seldom produce results that pretty much amount to pure judgmental conjucture. :))

I fully well expect to be wrong about a great many things, no matter what Bioware does. I do hope they do have great plans for ME3, though. :)
Eh technically I could point out it's just a game, I'd kill this series with fire before I burn bridges to friendship with real people in the real world. Don't get me wrong, with a reveal this is the best series ever out of everything ever... I just don't think it's worth any enemies Grin

That's also why I don't like the attitude of a lot of literalists, they act like it's such a big deal if we speculate like we do despite the fact that it's a trivial thing in the first place. Makes it hard to call a truce when they sit there trollin ya or are just being dicks. On a more on topic note I just think that the only way Destroy could be bad is if Shepard ends up actually shooting SOMEONE rather than the tube due to hallucinations. But that would make no sense as far as I can tell for a Shepard who is in rubble, you'd need to have Shepard going through the indoctrination attempt sometime before earth.

Which people have a point when they bring up restarting at Cronos after the ending, but also as far as I know there IS engine limitations for things. I know it seems a lot of changes in DLCs cannot be made if you are in the middle of something, you have to at least go through a mission or something beforehand in order for the changes to take effect. That's how it seems anyways, and if that's the case then you couldn't already be in London when installing DLC involving the ending for example. Once again maybe I'm wrong, just something I noticed.

Also I think it completely derails the theory too if you believe Shepard is not on Earth... because of the breathe scene. It's impossible to be on the Citadel, and can't be before Earth without lacking any kind of sense.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Restrider on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:29 pm

An interesting question is, when does the hallucination/dream begin, since that will determine how easily a unconscious Shepard can be killed and who can access Shepard to rescue him.
But there is a whole thread for this discussion here, just wanted to point it out again.
Btw, I hope Jade is going to register on this side, she could really contribute in this thread.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by jojon2se on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:54 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
...
Also I think it completely derails the theory too if you believe Shepard is not on Earth... because of the breathe scene. It's impossible to be on the Citadel, and can't be before Earth without lacking any kind of sense.

On Earth, as far as my IT "menu selection" goes; in rubble, pretty banged up, unconscious and the Citadel/Catalyst scene going on in your head, while in this state.
(...I am incidently strongly leaning towards the kid at the beginning of the game being real, despite all his unrealistic feats, which I may be content with ascribing to "artistic freedom", for this single reason; Shepard is seemingly fully conscious and focused on the situation (...never mind the recent being slammed into an oddly placed park bench..) and see the kid clear as day. If influence is this relatively convincing under these circumstances; what else in the game is a misrepresentation.)

The ridiculous Normandy pickup scene, from the Extended Cut, makes it a little difficult to pinpoint the likely time the final hallucinations/projections begin...
Previously I would have said after "Teh Lazor", but now...
Maybe right from the time the troop transport is hit, or for a crazier variant; Maybe Shep's groggy after the crash and somewhat susceptible to influence, which becomes logarithmically stronger the closer you get to the beam, where there may be some Object Roh type device messing up your perception.
(EDIT2: ...which could be the entire beam assembly itself. Come to think of it; In one permutation of this scenario, I could buy Refusal Shep being stuck in limbo. It would involve the entire thing being a WNT scenario, where Shep really believes the illusion in all the scenarios but shoots the Rho thingie to pieces in Destroy - not because of any great conviction or anything, but out of sheer chance - it would be the physical bullets that got you free, not your resolve. :P)

I figured the different scenarios, we were all making up here, involving extra help to "awake", were meant as taking place after the "apparent endings" as seen in the game, in an upcoming "Me3:act 3" (EDIT: a hypothetical act 3, of course :)), with Shepard either being rescued from the rubble and recovering, but maybe not coming back quite the same, or scooped up by enemy forces.
Maybe I was mistaken about this... :7

Each and every one of us could probably come up with "save throws" of various "helpfulness" for ALL of the choices, if we wanted to, btw. :9

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:44 pm

But that doesn't seem to fit what the Reapers do, TIM and Saren weren't hallucinating that they were fighting Reapers. They knew they were killing innocent people, etc but were convinced it's the right thing to do.

Indoctrination is brainwashing. In real life throughout history indoctrinated religious people did the most horrible things thinking it was the right thing... There was no need for them to hallucinate that they were hugging the baby they were actually dashing against stone. They were fully aware of it, they knew they murdered that baby, they just though it was right. Similarly TIM knows he is being more than generous to the Reapers and dooming Humanity, he just thinks it will lead to controlling the Reapers. No hallucinations required :l

Even Reaper Indoctrination is brainwashing, this is the point to the hallucinations, they are just for the sake of supplying suggestions like that Destroy is a bad idea. However it's not brainwashing if they just warp your vision so you shoot innocent people without knowing it, it's only brainwashing if they convince you to shoot them fully aware that what is being suggested is that you shoot the innocent people... not something else like say a husk.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by jojon2se on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:29 am

@Ironic:

I may have given you the impression I'm saying hallucination is everywhere and everything and all the time, from the looks of it - if so; sorry, that's not what I meant.

Yes, Saren and Tim really thought it was worth the horrible sacrifices - it built upon something that was already in their already unpleasant personalities, subtly appropriated by the reapers - slight, gradual, deviations - persuasive suggestions - which would have seemed to them perfectly in line with what they would have done anyway, unlike something antithetical to their being.
This is why I can't see the oft repeated: "10 PRINT "we came to destroy", 20 GOTO 10", as a compelling argument, no matter how real and inevitable "the cold calculus of war" may be. The indoctrinee would try to work with whatever you'd accept and if neither Synthesis or Control is a sell and single-minded Destroy, or just simple chain-of-command-droning, is in your nature, that is what they'd try to exploit.

Remember that those players who choose Synthesis do not really buy into Reaper ideology *at all* -- they buy into whatever nice and well intentioned blurbs that are printed on the glossy "Synthesis" marketing material, which they actually are making up in their heads themselves, based on ideas they may already have and which they automatically fit the catalyst's words into -- a deception of their own making, but instigated by the writers.

Saren and TIM and, say, Tela Vasir, without any Reaper influence at all, became willing to take an active hand in extinguishing innocents if that's the asking price for getting the job done.
Accepting the purported price of purported Destruction is the potential first step on a similar journey -- you can make several compelling cases for how it is different, but at the end of the day, that's where /my/ values lie - everybody will have their own philosophical weighting.

A Refuser arguably accepts the idea of an even more horrible possible, likely even, sacrifice, but at least it doesn't take away anyone else's right to try protecting themselves. Yes, I realise it's poor comfort.


There is the matter of how to put things into gameplay. I am pretty sure it is quite possible to set up a situation where the player has got the wrong impression of a person/situation, without actually giving false information -- not having the full picture is usually quite enough.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by draconian139 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:06 am

@Ironic:Right, its not successful brainwashing. Its far more risky to use hallucinations and simply hope the person falls for them again, that's why destroy is their least favorite option of the original three. Trying to get him to shoot Hackett or someone would be nice if his body's in good enough condition to last that long.
Medigel does work wonders. Thing is that even if he can't survive for a decent time and can only be pointed at a squad of soldiers it would still be a huge morale blow to suddenly have Shepard turn traitor. Hurting morale makes it easier to indoctrinate others.

@Jojon:What do you make of the kid running through the locked door and the locked symbol staying there as he runs through? Simple bug?

Defintely would like to see Jade over here...


Last edited by draconian139 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:16 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:09 am

draconian139 wrote:Defintely would like to see Jade over here...

Jade does like IT. I more or less figured she'd know about this place by now. I think she'll show up at some point. =)

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by Terramine on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:23 am

jojon2se wrote:@Ironic: *snip* .
You know what never made sense to me? Ok we for some reason assume that the next cycle or a future cycle wins conventionally?

There is no proof of this, and considering it required an anomaly like Shepard in the first place for us to do however much damage I doubt that's what they did. Liara specifically placed the crucible plans into that box in case something went wrong or there was not enough time, those with access to the box would have no reason to think the Crucible won't work. My point being the biggest irony of Refuse, is that it's VERY likely the future cycles actually used the damn thing.

I mean that's the only way I can see it, if we argue they won conventionally then there would have never been reapers attacking our cycle in the first place because they would have conventionally died out already at the hands of some other cycle.

Which for IT would mean what exactly? I mean even looking at what it does from a metaphorical position... it basically does quit like Blur says. I mean you pretty much choose the option that kills you, and the only way the Reapers die is? Either they don't because you can't win conventionally no matter the cost you are willing to pay, or they do by the use of something unconventional that is the go-to thing... aka the Crucible.

If there is another way to see it by all means help me out here.

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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

Post by draconian139 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:33 am

Liara in refuse:"We built the crucible but it didn't work."

Everyone assumes that because Liara says we built the crucible but it didn't work, not that we built it and then didn't use it. To me it makes more sense from a literal perspective to assume that they take that at face value and not base their strategy around it.

Why would they have died already if its possible to beat them conventionally? Its not like they've been around for an infinite amount of time, merely an extremely long amount of time.

Edit:That's all from a literalist point of view though. If I viewed the endings literally I'd just choose destroy.
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Re: The Indoctrination Theory and Refuse

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