Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by ivenoidea on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:45 pm

Eh, Bioware DID give Starchild that name. Enable subtitles if you don't believe me.
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:17 pm

Swoby, I don't follow, sorry.

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:13 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Swoby, I don't follow, sorry.

I'll put it in the most simplest terms - Citadel DLC is Shepard's mind's last chance it is giving him before he wakes up. (to pick Destroy) It's a 100% dream.

Any specific questions and I'll be glad to answer.

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:11 pm

I understand that it feels like that, but it doesn't make sense in the chronology.

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Eryri on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:38 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:I understand that it feels like that, but it doesn't make sense in the chronology.

If I understand Swoby's and Demersel's interpretation correctly, it doesn't have to make sense in the chronology - because all of what we experience as Mass Effect 3 is not exactly reality. Neither is it a dream, or a hallucination while Shepard is still unconscious next to Object Rho. It's a distorted and jumbled series of memories.

All the time we've been playing the game, Shepard has been in the rubble in London, reliving everything that got him to that point. 90% of what we see really did "happen" in the real, physical ME universe, but the weirdness we perceive in places like Chronos, the FOB and especially in the Citadel dlc, is because they are events being remembered by a fallible mind, falling to indoctrination. Shepard is human, so his memories would be an imperfect record of what happened at the best of times, but especially so while under mental assault from the reapers.

It therefore doesn't matter that the Citadel Party being a dream doesn't fit into the Chronology, because it is a largely illusory, or mis-remembered event among other imperfectly remembered events which have all already happened. The order of those events can be jumbled up as Shepard's unconscious mind tries to process them.

You could think of it as a bit like the Animus mechanic in Assasin's Creed, except Shepard is reliving his own memories instead of an ancestor. "Critical Mission Failure" represents Shepard getting "out of sync" with his own memories, due to our failure to play him properly.

I'm not sure if this was the sort of plan Bioware was going for, in fact it probably isn't, but I really like it. It's such a head trip.

On a different but related topic - the idea of Shepard being stuck in a cycle of repeating memories is quite similar to a couple of other games - Infinity Blade has a succession of protagonists gradually getting further and further through a dungeon until they are finally powerful enough to beat the end boss, and a recent game called Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward , has a time travel mechanic where you repeat events over and over again, but slightly differently each time until you get them right.
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:49 pm

More like 95%+ is real. (if you don't count Citadel DLC)

I don't consider Citadel DLC to be a memory though, unlike... everything else. It's Shepard putting into the 'past' what he hopes for the 'future'.

"I will be lost in the dream when the dark days come
But I will make the time run backwards and
I'll make the stars shine again "

So I guess Bioware is right that IT is an 'interpretation', but its meant to be what people jump to, instead of the 'real truth'. Yes, indoctrination IS heavily involved, but it's only part of what Shepard is experiencing.

Enthrallment + Indoctrination + Mind Hacking + Memories

"Your memories give voice to our words."

If we chose High-EMS Destroy, we already won. Everything else is icing.

If we chose Synthesis or Control, hey, we might have won something, but not the fight against the Reapers ourselves! DLC gives us further context to help us toward Destroy.

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:46 pm

I can theoretically entertain this idea, but I don't think it's what Bioware is going for.

However, I do kind of understand what prompts this line of thinking. The foreshadowing dialogue in the game comes off as if everything is happening over and over again, and so when (for example) Shepard talks to James about how everything back on Earth seemed like a nightmare, it's as if they're talking about the end of the game, rather than the beginning of the game.

It feels like 'all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again', like in BSG. That's what it feels like. I don't actually think this kind of complexity is what Bioware is going for.

But the 4th wall breaking references do make me feel like Shepard is in some kind of mental prison, and his subconsciousness/instincts are giving him hints how to break out of the illusion.

Example:

Anderson: Shepard. So I imagine you've wiped the galaxy clean of Reapers, and we can all come up for air?

However, this raises the question: when did this illusion start?

Object Rho? The laser that knocks over Shepard as soon as the Reapers hit Earth?

All unlikely, as it would render our big moments in the game meaningless (Tuchanka, Rannoch).

I guess I kind of could see it starting as soon as Shepard enters the Geth consensus, but I believe that mission is optional.

Now if I understand you guys correctly, it simply started on Earth, at the end of the game, only the game as we experience it is the memory of what happened. Shepard is trapped in the illusion, and keeps reliving the illusion, until she finds the right sequence of events that let her escape it, it's almost exactly like in the German movie 'Lola Rennt'... Shocked

Shocked

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_Lola_Run

"LOLA" - Vega's nickname for femshep!!!!!

"You seem like a Lola" Shocked

Whoa, that is pretty mind blowing...

Lola Rennt is about a girl who relives a sequence of events until she learns to avoid her mistakes of the previous sequences and manages to get it right.

(Not repeating the mistakes of the previous cycle?)

Also:

Samara: Following the Code has left me with no regrets. Take that for what you will...

This means that following the code has shown her the right path, or it means she doesn't have to take responsibility for her actions, it's basically a moral cop-out.

Bear with me, I'm going somewhere with this.

I've often wondered if there would be a hidden 'code' inside the game. Like, the hidden messages in the dialogue, could lead you to choose a certain set of decisions that will wake you up. But the only way this can happen is if you take all the right decisions, and Samara is telling you to follow 'the code'.

I'm not extremely serious about this, but I have wondered if there was more to her words in this respect.

Having said all that, I am afraid that there is a much easier explanation for all of this. Much easier. But you're not going to like it.

And I posted this in the second post I ever made in the IT thread mark I, a few weeks before the Extended Cut came out last year.

The easiest way to explain it all, including the unreal feel of the Citadel DLC is the following:

We've already been harvested. You lose in every ending. Sovereign and Harbinger were right. It was unavoidable. The Reapers, merciful and sadistic at the same time, simply leave us blissfully unaware of what happened. They let us think we win in every scenario, but there is just no beating them.

This would explain why Bioware says they'll never follow up on the ending. They sadistically give us hope, like the Reapers do, but we never truly wake up. And so, the Mass Effect trilogy becomes the story of the apocalypse. It's the end of the human race.

I could even see them eventually releasing an IT DLC, where Shepard wakes up and defeats Harbinger and the rest of the Reapers, and at the end of the story still leave us wondering whether all of it was real, or only happened in our minds / the Reaper virtual reality.

It would be a total Stephen King ending, but I could see it happening. Extremely dark.




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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:46 am

I can see them doing that too.

I...just don't think they will.

I'm going to go with Shepard crashing the shuttle before the beam run.

Then all the Reapers/Harbinger focuses their powers on him.

Shepard doesn't fall for just indoctrination, his 'willpower' (genetic power imo) is too strong.

And enthrallment has limited effects on him.

So Harbinger creates a simulation, starting with the boy on Earth. (Or maybe ME1-ME2, but I'm just... not gonna go there)

It happens over and over - through Continue and New Game+

The end result is to create a compliant Shepard that isn't so wrecked by rapid indoctrination that he isn't useful.

The end goal is either Shepard as a capital Reaper, or more. Either way: "Your mind will be mine."


HOWEVER, I actually DO think there is an out, and Destroy IS that. In all cycles and in 99.9999%(+?) chances, Destroy still won't work, but its more than the 100% of Control (I think( and 100% of Synthesis.

Essentially, we do break the cycle and do something. Until then, we replay ME3 and add in DLCs that make things clearer, bit by bit.

And speaking of BSG, the Liara Vigil piano scene reminds me of a ...little something ;)




I think Destroy is also a trap, and the game itself is rigged.

That does NOT mean we can't beat the game and fuck the trap over.

In fact, that's the whole point...


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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:49 am

Anderson: Gotcha!

Shepard: Thanks! ... I owe you one.

Anderson: More than one.

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:51 am

If Shepard is taken, in mind, body, and soul, the Cycle is perfected and the Reapers win for all eternity.

If Shepard dies before being taken, the Cycle continues, imperfect.

In Shepard wins, the Cycle is broken. The Reapers are at minimum, shocked and scattered, forced to face a united galaxy that now knows how they work and how to resist them.

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Starscream on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:53 am

Speaking of Wintersun and the IT. I think the song 'Sons of Winter and Stars' on the latest album 'Time I' is A LOT more fitting for the whole ending fiasco, the breathing scene and the IT.

Wintersun - Sons of Winter and Stars
song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMbFu457jGs
lyrics: http://www.metalkingdom.net/lyrics_song/62251_wintersun_sons_of_winter_and_stars
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:58 am

Starscream wrote:Speaking of Wintersun and the IT. I think the song 'Sons of Winter and Stars' on the latest album 'Time I' is A LOT more fitting for the whole ending fiasco, the breathing scene and the IT.

Wintersun - Sons of Winter and Stars
song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMbFu457jGs
lyrics: http://www.metalkingdom.net/lyrics_song/62251_wintersun_sons_of_winter_and_stars

RISE

Oh I think the whole album is an inspiration - its just the Starchild is the direction for the end sequences in particular.

When the game came out, only 1/3-1/2 at best of the track was valid.

With DLC, 1/2-2/3.

But Citadel filled in the second last verse.

And now we only have:

"The whirls of stars takes you now far away
away from the cold nightmare
Let go of you thoughts and dreams
and you will feel the warmth once again
Starchild! in the Sea of Stars you fall
You fall like a burning star!
Starchild! in the Sea of Stars you fall
... But there is no end to creation"

Left.

Shepard has to wake up and defeat the Reapers. (maybe not crush them utterly, but defeat them and drive them from Earth and from their Harvest/Cycle)

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Starscream on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:00 am

You do realize that the song I posted (Sons of Winter and Stars) comes from their latest album right? The album named 'Time I'. That album was released AFTER Mass Effect 3.

I don't think Wintersun was an inspiration for Mass Effect 3 at all. But I do like how lots of Wintersun songs seem to be fitting with the whole ending fiasco.
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:02 am

Yeah of course. Power metal/prog metal/symphonic (etc) metal carries very similar themes that if Casey-Mac were fans of it, they would just incorporate into their plans.

Even my specific lyrical stuff is only indicative of their direction - not what *exactly* they have done with ME3.

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Starscream on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:46 am

ivenoidea wrote:Eh, Bioware DID give Starchild that name. Enable subtitles if you don't believe me.

False.

There is no "starchild" in the subtitles anywhere in ME3.
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:04 am

Starscream wrote:
ivenoidea wrote:Eh, Bioware DID give Starchild that name. Enable subtitles if you don't believe me.

False.

There is no "starchild" in the subtitles anywhere in ME3.

This is actually true.

There is only:

-Child
-Stargazer
-Catalyst

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:37 am

Interesting.

https://twitter.com/MalcolmSwoboda/status/310584549295943680?uid=53623861&iid=9eda19e9-80a6-40f9-b327-1bed45c87126&nid=5+259&t=1

Me: "Great video! Normandy was a great mind-break. But I'm worried when harsh truth hits Shep. :( Stand strong, stand together."

Lead Editor favorited it.

No confirmation, but again, interesting. :)

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by ivenoidea on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:59 pm

SwobyJ wrote:
Starscream wrote:
ivenoidea wrote:Eh, Bioware DID give Starchild that name. Enable subtitles if you don't believe me.

False.

There is no "starchild" in the subtitles anywhere in ME3.

This is actually true.

There is only:

-Child
-Stargazer
-Catalyst

Well shit, i was pretty sure but just checked. Yeah you guys are right.
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by demersel on Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:53 pm

SwobyJ. I think you are right. I too think that this is exaclty what is going on. But I am afraid, it is more than that.
Spoiler:
We will get to wake up. But it is not the reapers who do net let us see what is going to happen next. It is Shepard himself. It is his mind blocking out the pain. Because i think that Javik is not real. Javik is actually is Shepard himself. The pure rage part of him, fueled by the prothean cypher that is inside of him. The Vengence part of him. The cynical part of him. It is HE who got awekened. who woke up from the dream - and got to live through the real horrors. The Shepard we know of - we play as - is like the Javik we get to meet - he locked all those horrible things that happened in a memory shroud. The things that Javik talks about - when Shepard makes him look into the shroud - those thing are going to happen. Or they already have, and we choose to block them, and ignore them. This is why shepard is cought in the limbo - IT IS a Dark Tower Type of Story - the hero is on a quest which he has to endure again and again, without knowing that he has already done it countless time - untill he get's it right. Mass Effect Trilogy IS that quest. We find and awake Javik at Eden Prime - the place where it all started for shepard. From this point on he get's to make dicisions - and all those decisions will factor in how it will turn out when shepard wakes up on earth. Javik is Failshep - he got everything wrong and got the worst possible end - while still being able to wake up on earth and conitue the fight - the real challenge comes after - all our decisions will factor in and play out. If we do the Failshep - we will get exactly what Javik told us about. And if what we get with our current save is not what we like - we have a chance to try it all over again - by replaing THE WHOLE TRILOGY - and making things RIGHT this time. Untill we can live with how things ended. If this is truly going to happen - it will be the best thing ever to have happend to games and story telling! in a sense - it already has - only it is only implyid it did - if it was a book - it would already be enough. But since this is actually a game - i have hope that they will let us actually play through it. and this won't be a ME3 DLC. ME3's story is complete. And all DLC's are out. It will be an Epilogue to the ENTIRE TRILOGY. I really hope i am right about this.
Because think about this - if we have ONLY Mass Effect 3 - as a stand alone title - we play as FailShep, abd basicly - this way - our shep is Javik - he will get the same eligoue as Javik got with his crew and ship - the reapers will win, and his crew will get indoctrinated and will come after shepard and he will be forced to kill them one by one, even if shepard has enough ems to wake up on earth. There is no javik, only Shepard.
And this way - Mass Effect 3 IS the best place to get into Mass Effect - because you'll get ot witness all the tragedy and will be able to fix ait all.

in citadel DLC - francis kitt says he is done with hamlet, and instead wants to make a Mackbeth. He says that the main character is very different this time. He cast a Krogan - which would give him a new side of sheer brutality. when you think about it - you might call him... primitive.... the new hero is Javik - - the Awakened Shepard.
Now let's recall what Macbeth is about - Macbeth is a play written by William Shakespeare. It is considered one of his darkest and most powerful tragedies. Set in Scotland, the play dramatizes the corroding psychological and political effects produced when its protagonist, the Scottish lord Macbeth, chooses evil as the way to fulfill his ambition for power. He commits regicide to become king and then furthers his moral descent with a reign of murderous terror to stay in power, eventually plunging the country into civil war. In the end, he loses everything that gives meaning and purpose to his life before losing his life itself. - this is what is going to happen

there is also the actor who played the elcor hamlet - he says that with the production of the hamlet completed - he is now awailable - and recites the final monologue frim hamlet - this is our scurrent ending.

another thing in the ctadel DLC - the clone plot line- clone said one thing that gives it all up - "you had Miranda - I have Brooks. Mine is better."
Brooks name is Maya - or Illusion.

Miranda -- is Miranda - a character in the Tempest - where is is just a young girl listening to a story and a love interest ofr another character. But not only! Miranda is another name for MnemosyneMnemosyne - or Memory!

"You had memory - I have illusion! Mine is better!"



Last edited by demersel on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:56 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Uberangel on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:36 pm

Eryri wrote:

If I understand Swoby's and Demersel's interpretation correctly, it doesn't have to make sense in the chronology - because all of what we experience as Mass Effect 3 is not exactly reality. Neither is it a dream, or a hallucination while Shepard is still unconscious next to Object Rho. It's a distorted and jumbled series of memories.

All the time we've been playing the game, Shepard has been in the rubble in London, reliving everything that got him to that point. 90% of what we see really did "happen" in the real, physical ME universe, but the weirdness we perceive in places like Chronos, the FOB and especially in the Citadel dlc, is because they are events being remembered by a fallible mind, falling to indoctrination. Shepard is human, so his memories would be an imperfect record of what happened at the best of times, but especially so while under mental assault from the reapers.

It therefore doesn't matter that the Citadel Party being a dream doesn't fit into the Chronology, because it is a largely illusory, or mis-remembered event among other imperfectly remembered events which have all already happened. The order of those events can be jumbled up as Shepard's unconscious mind tries to process them.

You could think of it as a bit like the Animus mechanic in Assasin's Creed, except Shepard is reliving his own memories instead of an ancestor. "Critical Mission Failure" represents Shepard getting "out of sync" with his own memories, due to our failure to play him properly.

I'm not sure if this was the sort of plan Bioware was going for, in fact it probably isn't, but I really like it. It's such a head trip.

On a different but related topic - the idea of Shepard being stuck in a cycle of repeating memories is quite similar to a couple of other games - Infinity Blade has a succession of protagonists gradually getting further and further through a dungeon until they are finally powerful enough to beat the end boss, and a recent game called Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward , has a time travel mechanic where you repeat events over and over again, but slightly differently each time until you get them right.

I have to say, this...I really like this idea. I think it would such a mind screw to find out you were playing through memories/dreams this entire time. Makes me kinda want it to be this. bounce
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Argolas on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:05 pm

Wintersun- Battle Against Time

I see a golden light shining far away
I can't tell if I'll make it there someday
I reach my hands but there's no one on my path
I can't sleep 'cause my body is burning
Cold sweat, cannot breath, I'm loosing my mind
Reflection in the mirror shows a different man at night
And as hours and seconds pass by
I feel my every feeling wither and die
Do I really feel this pain
'cause sometimes I can't tell if I'm awake

Watching to the night, the hope is gone
Carrying so much burden in my heart
Watching to the night with tired eyes
Waiting for nothing all my life

Battle against time
I... battle against time

I am covered with cold ice, I am flying in the black skies
Fighting everyday, but it feels like, it's just the same
Oh time... you cut my heart and soul
you carve my will and passion of life
'cause the days of emptiness are piercing through me like arrows

I feel nothing, but hate and love
So much fire inside, so much left undone
Hate&Love


Last edited by Argolas on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:05 pm

Uh Dem, this is where I kinda say you go off the deep end with great ideas.

Javik in no way has to be *imaginary* for this to work (same with Leviathan and Omega DLCs), unlike the Citadel DLC. Citadel DLC is a special case of Shepard rewinding memory and creating a full fabrication in order to fully deal with his state of dying and fighting indocrination.

Javik very well can be a Prothian thawed out. No need for him to be another fabrication. If you want to go there, every memory of Shepard can be fabrication, and I really don't think so.

Symbolism can exist without reducing the subject to pure symbolism.

I 100% agree with Javik being failshep (not deadshep) though. He lost hope and his ship... turned on him ;)

But he doesn't need to be created from Shep's mind to do this. There is nothing outright illogical about him (imo being preserved on Eden Prime makes enough sense), but he acts as big foreshadowing of "This is who you become, whether Paragon or Renegade (imo), if you lose it all. Try not to."


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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:06 pm

Yeah Argolas, I love that one :)

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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by Argolas on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:08 pm

It's quite literally what would be inside Shepard the moment he seems to get up after being hit by Harbinger.

Wintersun is awesome btw.
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

Post by demersel on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:09 pm

Yes he does - it is Shepard spliting his memories of the failure away from him. Have you noticed, that if you bring javik to thessia - he says Shepard's renegade lines, while shepard himself is left with only paragone ones, or blindly reluctantly agreeing with javik? If Javik isn't there - he says those lines himself.
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Re: Starchild by Wintersun Analysis Continued (Citadel!)

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