My Conclusion on the ME story, and the ME3 ending.

Here is what I've come to conclude what is happening:

Essentially Shepard has evolved his own ability. We have to wonder what exactly does the REAL Crucible do as a trap? Furthermore, why do they lead Shepard into the beam? Shepard is in rubble right? So the decision chamber would be Shepard on earth facing the beam hence the Mako tires, etc. Shepard never actually jumped into the beam, but in the decision room there's the beam. It's like they are now telling Shepard to jump into the beam for real this time. What happens when he jumps into the beam? Well for starters, it should be pointed out that it's linked to a giant mass relay.

Now I want to point out, that we must question where the Leviathans are in all of this. They said they'd help, but just before that they didn't give a fuck and in fact WANTED the cycle. They want it to continue, so why everyone thinks they are going to intervene in the Reaper's plan is beyond me. What are their motives? Well what are the Reapers doing? They are manipulating evolution... waiting for it to produce something specific. People have speculated that the Leviathans are just waiting to trick the Reapers, but what if the Intelligence never rebelled? How would they? The Leviathans had eyes everywhere, we assume it was hubris but hubris doesn't make you LITERALLY blind. They would have saw the catalyst ready to attack, they'd know instantly. That's why the premise that they were caught off guard is logically impossible.

The Reapers spout that organics need Synthetics to overcome certain limitations. This sounds like something the Leviathans themselves would've thought, and thus would've turned most of themselves into the first Reaper, the intelligence named Harbinger. They gave it a mandate, did they not? Of course we know the Synthetic vs Organic conflict is bogus, they are trying to hide their real motive. So then, what is their real motive? Obviously it's whatever the Reapers are trying to produce through evolution. However, many people are skeptical of the idea that Shepard is unique biologically. But why are the Reapers treating Shepard as special? Especially when dead, indicating the need him biologically? To sum up what I think is happening:

The Leviathans made Harbinger, gave it the mandate to find a way to either create the "perfect" cycle or to make the Leviathans stronger, or both... or none of these, but whatever it is Harbinger thinks or knows, that Shepard is the "goal". Shepard is the sign that this cycle has finally come, that evolution has finally produced whatever it is that they seek.

The Leviathans have been watching Shepard since ME1, this is fact since they watched the fall of Sovereign, etc. They were probably curious about what was up with Shepard, as were the Reapers. Once the Leviathans realized Shepard was a threat to the Reapers they probably suspected the same thing Harbinger does. Once he talks with a Leviathan, that Leviathan realizes Shepard IS the answer. This changes everything in that instant, after cycles upon cycles it is no longer "unknown" whether or not the Reapers will find what they are looking for, because it's right there in the Leviathan's midst talking with them.

This is what the Leviathan means when it says Shepard's actions are not a product of chance. They don't mean fate either, they mean his actions are inevitable purely because the Reapers have been purposely trying to produce a "Commander Shepard". It's no surprise Shepard does what he does, because he is a product of manipulating the odds through controlling evolution. Once the Leviathans realized this, they let Shepard go. So that Harbinger could fulfill his mandate that his masters have given him. This makes a load of sense if you think about what the Catalyst says about his masters, that he's glad they are INVOLVED. Not, that they are fighting against the Reapers... no, that their INVOLVED in the HARVEST! The Leviathans don't believe in a "war", they believe there is only the harvest. So when they are involved, that means they are involved in the Harvest, their helping it at that point, not opposing it. Their involved, because they sent Shepard their way and have contributed to the Reaper's efforts.

Think about what the beam really does... if everything I am saying is right. The Leviathans get instant galactic control over everyone, Synthetics included... through the REAL Synthesis. Which takes Shepard's unique biology and genetically modifies the entire galaxy. Think about it, the Leviathan's enthrallment is a QEC type concept. They rewire your brain to "entangle" it with theirs. Now imagine if Shepard's biology is imprinted onto everyone in the Galaxy? Then it means the Leviathans are instantly entangled with everyone in the Galaxy.

You can try and blame Shepard being partly Synthetic, or having the cipher. But those facts are not that special, a Reaper or even a Reaper minion is exactly that... partly Synthetic and partly organic. Heck, Saren was both a Hybrid and had the Cipher. If that was all it took, they could've used ANYONE. Shepard is the one and only. Hence why they need HIM to jump into their beam. You cannot just make something that took billions upon billions of years to produce. This is actually a mirror of what Grunt's creator said, that after all that effort you'd never produce the same thing. At least not without doing it all over...

Mostly agreed!

However, I do think the Leviathans are fighting the Reapers. But only because the Reapers decided that the Leviathans were part of the problem.

Otherwise, it's all going to plan. The Leviathans were just usurped by their creations and pushed off but not eliminated (like the Quarians to the Geth), so the Leviathans were mostly set for 'peeking into' the galaxy for millions of years instead of dominating it like they used to.

Which is fine by them in itself - except for the personal offense that they now have to hide. They're arrogance personified, it feels like.

(Yes, I know you'll disagree)

Synthesis - Leviathans control everyone, Reapers and non-Reapers. Cycle continues?

Control - Shepard controls Reapers. Cycle continues? Leviathans continue.

Destroy - Shepard destroys Reapers. Cycle breaks. Leviathans continue.

Refuse - Cycle continues. Reapers continue. Leviathans continue.

I am confused by breath scene though. Does Shepard not wake up in Synthesis or Control? What about Leviathan plans, etc? Or is Destroy just an Easter Egg hint?

SwobyJ wrote:Mostly agreed!

However, I do think the Leviathans are fighting the Reapers. But only because the Reapers decided that the Leviathans were part of the problem.

Otherwise, it's all going to plan. The Leviathans were just usurped by their creations and pushed off but not eliminated (like the Quarians to the Geth), so the Leviathans were mostly set for 'peeking into' the galaxy for millions of years instead of dominating it like they used to.

Which is fine by them in itself - except for the personal offense that they now have to hide. They're arrogance personified, it feels like.

Look, the problem with all of this is the idea that their planting orbs everywhere. Why are they doing this, if they have much bigger plans?

They were never fighting before Shepard showed up in their midst and they just let him go? WHY?

You said they are attempting to enthrall him at the end... once again, why would they need to? Why not keep him enthralled the entire time, and make him jump into the beam? Also, there is no choice in Leviathan enthrallment, had they waited till the very end there should ONLY be 1 option. At the very least, Shepard should only be able to pick Synthesis.

It does not appear that they are fighting the Reapers at all, nor trying to trick them.

SwobyJ wrote:(Yes, I know you'll disagree)

Synthesis - Leviathans control everyone, Reapers and non-Reapers. Cycle continues?

Control - Shepard controls Reapers. Cycle continues? Leviathans continue.

Destroy - Shepard destroys Reapers. Cycle breaks. Leviathans continue.

Refuse - Cycle continues. Reapers continue. Leviathans continue.

I am confused by breath scene though. Does Shepard not wake up in Synthesis or Control? What about Leviathan plans, etc? Or is Destroy just an Easter Egg hint?

You know, you guys always argue a problem with Refuse is that it wasn't in the game to begin with and so nobody could break out if the way out wasn't in the game. The problem with this idea, was people already couldn't get out with Destroy, not without playing online. So actually, the base game, on day 1 would've kept many people from getting out then.

The EC, changed the EMS requirements to "fix" it so to speak.

IronicParticle wrote:

SwobyJ wrote:(Yes, I know you'll disagree)

Synthesis - Leviathans control everyone, Reapers and non-Reapers. Cycle continues?

Control - Shepard controls Reapers. Cycle continues? Leviathans continue.

Destroy - Shepard destroys Reapers. Cycle breaks. Leviathans continue.

Refuse - Cycle continues. Reapers continue. Leviathans continue.

I am confused by breath scene though. Does Shepard not wake up in Synthesis or Control? What about Leviathan plans, etc? Or is Destroy just an Easter Egg hint?

You know, you guys always argue a problem with Refuse is that it wasn't in the game to begin with and so nobody could break out if the way out wasn't in the game. The problem with this idea, was people already couldn't get out with Destroy, not without playing online. So actually, the base game, on day 1 would've kept many people from getting out then.

The EC, changed the EMS requirements to "fix" it so to speak.

I'll respond to your other point afterwards, but these two things are not similar at all. Having to play MP to get the best ending was likely an oversight, while the EC (with Refuse) was never planned.

Interesting theory in the OP too, I'll have to think about it for a bit. A lot of it sounds like what Swoby and I were saying.

Drewton wrote:
I'll respond to your other point afterwards, but these two things are not similar at all. Having to play MP to get the best ending was likely an oversight, while the EC (with Refuse) was never planned.

No, no it wasn't. They knew how their own system worked and that you could never reach it. The requirement was FAR off, you had to get 2000 more EMS than what was possible!

Also @SwobyJ:

"However, I do think the Leviathans are fighting the Reapers. But only because the Reapers decided that the Leviathans were part of the problem."

The problem with this, is we already know that's a lie. Because the Reapers are not solving any problems, their mandate is for the Leviathans by the Leviathans. As well the whole pay tribute in blood thing is retarded, the Reapers are doing what their told... so the Leviathans would actually be aware, the Reapers are innocent in that regard. It'd be like me punching my computer because it opened a program, I told it to open by clicking on it.

Not to mention, the Leviathans would've consented outright knowing them.

The Reaper minions who find the orb? How do we know their not speaking with the Leviathan? Why would the Reapers send a Reaper to deal with the Leviathans? They know WHAT the Leviathans are and what they can do. It's more like it was all part of the plan to trick Shepard, the Reapers sent a Reaper who is ready to die by it's masters' doing if it helps their cause. Otherwise it makes no sense at all!

The Leviathan of Dis specifically says he wants to enslave the Reapers. I think it's pretty clear there is a conflict, and the Leviathans plan to use Shepard to help them control the Reapers.

Drewton wrote:The Leviathan of Dis specifically says he wants to enslave the Reapers. I think it's pretty clear there is a conflict, and the Leviathans plan to use Shepard to help them control the Reapers.

Yes because we can trust what he says?

Sorry but there is too much showing what he apparently says, to be bullshit. Besides we haven't seen anything anywhere to show that the Reapers spew their own thought out logic, their lying to us. Which their mimicking the Leviathan's lies..

Nevermind we know the Leviathans can ALREADY control them, since their enthrallment effects them.

What do Leviathans gain by the harvest?

The Reapers are the only ones who gain (or believe they gain), because this is how they "reproduce". Why is it good for the Leviathans that there is a growing force of super powerful synthetics that they cannot control (on a large scale)?

The orbs only foreshadow wanting to control all the Reapers through synthesis for me. If they can already control all of the Reapers with ease what good is synthesis for them?

Drewton wrote:What do Leviathans gain by the harvest?

The Reapers are the only ones who gain (or believe they gain), because this is how they "reproduce". Why is it good for the Leviathans that there is a growing force of super powerful synthetics that they cannot control?

Did you read my post up above? If it was all about reproduction, why not stick to the usual MO? What's with the Crucible and why didn't they cripple our governments through the citadel?

The Reapers still serve their purpose, according to that same Leviathan. The Leviathans did not tell the Reapers their main goal was reproduction -_-

"The orbs only foreshadow wanting to control all the Reapers through synthesis for me. If they can already control all of the Reapers with ease what good is synthesis for them?"

Again, read my first post. It seems you weren't paying attention. There is bigger motives.

Remember, you guys have failed to explain what the Leviathans wanted in the first place, that started all of this?

IronicParticle wrote:

SwobyJ wrote:Mostly agreed!

However, I do think the Leviathans are fighting the Reapers. But only because the Reapers decided that the Leviathans were part of the problem.

Otherwise, it's all going to plan. The Leviathans were just usurped by their creations and pushed off but not eliminated (like the Quarians to the Geth), so the Leviathans were mostly set for 'peeking into' the galaxy for millions of years instead of dominating it like they used to.

Which is fine by them in itself - except for the personal offense that they now have to hide. They're arrogance personified, it feels like.

Look, the problem with all of this is the idea that their planting orbs everywhere. Why are they doing this, if they have much bigger plans?

They were never fighting before Shepard showed up in their midst and they just let him go? WHY?

You said they are attempting to enthrall him at the end... once again, why would they need to? Why not keep him enthralled the entire time, and make him jump into the beam? Also, there is no choice in Leviathan enthrallment, had they waited till the very end there should ONLY be 1 option. At the very least, Shepard should only be able to pick Synthesis.

It does not appear that they are fighting the Reapers at all, nor trying to trick them.

-If he's enthralled the entire time, he's not Shepard. He needs to be Shepard in order to kick ass like Shepard does. If you haven't noticed, Leviathan thralls aren't exactly super-capable. (Traynor is still an unknown, if she is one)

-The ending isn't enthrallment, it's Indoctrination in Shepard's mind. Enthrallment doesn't alter the inner parts of mind, but Indoctrination does. Shepard is facing the Reapers, but the Leviathans intrude with the "Oh look, hi, there's also Synthesis! You like this, right?"

-Again, the ending isn't enthrallment. It's the Reapers Indoctrinating Shepard. Leviathan is just poking in.

God this is all so theoretical though. I was joking with my boyfriend today that I almost want to just be a durp literalist and forget about it, a month from now :P

IronicParticle wrote:Also @SwobyJ:

"However, I do think the Leviathans are fighting the Reapers. But only because the Reapers decided that the Leviathans were part of the problem."

The problem with this, is we already know that's a lie. Because the Reapers are not solving any problems, their mandate is for the Leviathans by the Leviathans. As well the whole pay tribute in blood thing is retarded, the Reapers are doing what their told... so the Leviathans would actually be aware, the Reapers are innocent in that regard. It'd be like me punching my computer because it opened a program, I told it to open by clicking on it.

Not to mention, the Leviathans would've consented outright knowing them.

The Reaper minions who find the orb? How do we know their not speaking with the Leviathan? Why would the Reapers send a Reaper to deal with the Leviathans? They know WHAT the Leviathans are and what they can do. It's more like it was all part of the plan to trick Shepard, the Reapers sent a Reaper who is ready to die by it's masters' doing if it helps their cause. Otherwise it makes no sense at all!

My belief is that the Reapers are not 'solving any problems' because Harbinger is a Reaper made of Leviathans. Leviathans. The arrogant as fuck Leviathans.
He'll stick to the plan, sure, but work towards selfish interest every step of the way.

And the Reaper artifact cutscene?
"They've learned too well. The darkness must not be breached!"
The Marauders could very well be using (supposition) an interfacing tech to backtrace the artifact signal.

All the actions of Leviathan throughout the entire DLC say "GO AWAY." not "GO AWAY, but maybe follow us..." to me. But if you automatically distrust what they say, which is understandable, I can get how you think that this may all be some plan to draw Shepard in.

You make some good points IP, and it's so late I'm not thinking clearly. I will say though, that if the Leviathans are working with the Reapers, have the same abilities, and have the same motives, they are kind of redundant. Why can't Harbinger be the mastermind instead?

SwobyJ wrote:
God this is all so theoretical though. I was joking with my boyfriend today that I almost want to just be a durp literalist and forget about it, a month from now :P

Well you don't need to be a literalist to forget about it, by all means you can stop caring and move on. I've kinda already moved on, I'm not waiting for a reveal. I was just explaining my final conclusion at the end of the day.

My main question is that if they are fighting each other, what's the Reaper's stake in this? Reproduction? You kinda don't rebel against your master just to repopulate lol

Drewton wrote:You make some good points IP, and it's so late I'm not thinking clearly. I will say though, that if the Leviathans are working with the Reapers, have the same abilities, and have the same motives, they are kind of redundant. Why can't Harbinger be the mastermind instead?

Well... the main problem I had with Sovereign was his claim of having no beginning. Their machines, someone built them. So the Leviathans serve the purpose, explaining where the Reapers came from. It's a lot better than Starbrat being legit. As well, the Leviathans, are not as capable as Harbinger. He's several levels above even the Leviathan's understanding. He is after all, the collective minds of many Leviathans.

My main question is if Harbinger does seek to betray his masters, what motives are there for that? Why hasn't he done something drastically different than what the Leviathans also want?

Anyways yeah, if you're tired you might want to call it a day :P

Way I saw it was:

Leviathans:
-We 'care for you', as your greaters, and prefer you love us
-And may enthrall you when we want!
-However, you're otherwise autonomous as you live your lives.
-You inevitably create synthetics, because we can't track your every movement or control all of you.
-These Synthetics always rebel, killing you off.
-We have to arrive and Reap the galaxy of Synthetics in order to return the galaxy to its prior state.
-We're sick of it! So we made an Intelligence, perhaps based on Synthetic knowledge from all our other Cycles, to find a solution to this Cycle of conflict.
-Crap, it learned we kept killing all the other Synthetics! WHAT IS HUBRIS?-*dies*

Reapers:
-We despise you, and prefer you fear us
-We'll indoctrinate you into our beliefs.
-You're semi-autonomous. We manage your technological and psychological-societal progress, so you don't overstep our bounds.
-When you reach the tech point where you could make synthetics, we'll cut you off and Reap you.
-Except we'll do that before the Synthetics kill you all (not just Quarians here, but everyone). We mean to preserve you, Ascend you!, in Reaper form. Join us... (a cult of self-messiah beliefs by machines, where Leviathans are the Devil's 'Chaos')
-Our solution is imperfect, even with the Leviathans (as we believe) out of the picture. Husks are not ideal.
-While we can do this forever, and Harbinger can make his pet slave races and experiment on the Cycles as he wishes, we wish to perfect this process. We see the plans for the Crucible and we pass it on to the future ones, so if a Cycle actually manages to pass our test (using our indoctrinated Control factions), the 'winner' may take control of the Cycle and determine a new solution.

Both normally use Control.
Both use Destroy when they 'Reap'
And both strive for their own form of Synthesis.
The Reapers fail at Synthesis, because it just keeps making Reapers and Husks. Ew.
The Leviathans failed at Synthesis because it created an Intelligence (Harbinger?) that created the Reapers.

The Leviathans now think they can 'do it right', if only an organic cycle can take control of the Crucible construction and complete it.

The Reapers also intend on the Crucible, not knowing the Leviathans have their own plan. The Reapers want it so they can perfect the Cycle and fulfill their programming.

The Leviathans go 'uh no', and intend on snatching the victory away from Harbinger ASAP, as the Reapers were ultimately just their own tools, and they intend on enslaving every organic, synthetic, and Reaper.

As such, the Reapers are destined to lose in most endings (from my current interpretation), but only Synthesis is an outright 'win' choice for the Leviathans.

Control = You actually MAY control the Reapers, but it is dangerous, and sacrifices Shepard's soul, and restrains free will. TIM choice. Shep is also indoctrinated, so is likely to just want to continue the Cycle in his own way. :(

Destroy = You destroy the Reapers, but the Leviathans have more lee-way. When you 'wake up', it'll be because Shepard has the power himself to wake up, and hold his hand out for rescue.



I think the things keeping you from speculating on what I wrote above are:
-Leviathans telling the truth? (except for their avoidance to answer certain things)
-The ending being 'legit', in some form, even if its still just in Shepard's mind? It's NOT a 100% Reaper plot?
-Leviathans and Reapers are actually at odds, even if they both wish to continue the Cycle, just at some point, in a new form.

If you can at least suspend your opinions on these parts, it may be possible to see the Decision Chamber as the Reapers attempting to indoctrinate Shepard into either dying, or Control (hey if you made it this far, fix our shit!), or Synthesis (yes, finally we can 100% control the galaxy!), and the Leviathans attempting to engineer everything into Synthesis (stupid Reapers, we control them now).

But since its a dream, this is still just a battle for Shepard's soul. He has only made the choice about himself, not about the galaxy yet.
If there's a 'London at Dawn' level, it might start off the reveal with the revelation of what's truly up with the Crucible, and what we need to do about it.

I guess the difference between the Leviathans and Reapers is:

-The Reapers despise organics, but work towards 'saving' us as per their directive (which is 'beyond our comprehension', yeah right)

-The Leviathans are ambivalent towards our actual fate, but need us to stop dying so they can have total dominance

Neither are good guys. The Reapers are more machine, and Leviathans are more organic, but they're both incredibly cosmic examples of narcissism and ultimately, self-destruction.

The Leviathans hit their hubris in the beginning (Alpha), and the Reapers will hit their hubris soon, in the end (Omega). And then we'll all 'follow the Cult of Shepard' into an age past our 'sins' of the Cycle. Heh.

SwobyJ wrote:I guess the difference between the Leviathans and Reapers is:

-The Reapers despise organics, but work towards 'saving' us as per their directive (which is 'beyond our comprehension', yeah right)

-The Leviathans are ambivalent towards our actual fate, but need us to stop dying so they can have total dominance

Neither are good guys. The Reapers are more machine, and Leviathans are more organic, but they're both incredibly cosmic examples of narcissism and ultimately, self-destruction.

The Leviathans hit their hubris in the beginning (Alpha), and the Reapers will hit their hubris soon, in the end (Omega). And then we'll all 'follow the Cult of Shepard' into an age past our 'sins' of the Cycle. Heh.

The problem I have with that, is as you pointed out here "which is 'beyond our comprehension', yeah right".

The Reapers are several Singularities above even the Leviathans. Why haven't they come up with some pretty different goals? Their goals should be above our comprehension, assuming they are not just following their creators goals. But you are suggesting that is not the case sine they are rebelling according to you.

I think Bioware may be going for a more moral lesson, than a strictly scientific one.


Watch:



2:40

"...you redeveloped and honed primitive instincts, that we moved beyond, longg ago."



1:15

"The Reapers are repulsive. They're devoted to nothing but self-preservation. I am different."

So yes, I'm saying everything Sovereign and Harbinger say, is just their Daddy Issues towards the Leviathans.

They want US to believe they're beyond our comprehension, because they want it to be true. Not because it IS true.

They're narcissists.

SwobyJ wrote:So yes, I'm saying everything Sovereign and Harbinger say, is just their Daddy Issues towards the Leviathans.

They want US to believe they're beyond our comprehension, because they want it to be true. Not because it IS true.

They're narcissists.

I don't think that's a very intelligent idea, any idiot could've thought of that. Besides, Bioware HAS RULES, and one of them tends to be that everything somehow makes sense. There is no space magic. Anyone who knows Bioware's usual MO knows this, just like ITers know Bioware uses symbolism, etc. It's their usual MO.

The problem I have with your idea that science can be restricting, is that it's completely wrong. In fact, any "miracle" or "magic" can be envisioned through science. Especially now days, when scientists realize that science could eventually reach levels where you can no longer distinguish between Miracle and Science. Walk on water? Science bro. Heal the blind, resurrect? Science bro. Create intelligent life, create Planets? Science bro. I mean if Jesus showed up and did miracles today, I could be "that guy" and ask how we could know Jesus is God and that he isn't just a Human from the future who used advanced science to travel back in time to impress sand people with Nanotechnology and the like. Anyways the point is, that it should make better sense is all i'm saying. If you are going to contradict for example the Kardashev scale, actually give an explanation how it works instead of going "herp derp just cause".

In terms of a moral lesson, if you're right then Bioware is not geniuses at all, their actually idiots because I could EASILY create a better moral story AND adhere to at least theoretical Science at the same time. Anyone could. Which if they are not geniuses, then they were not capable of thinking of the IT.

"herp derp just cause"
Thanks. Bye.

SwobyJ wrote:"herp derp just cause"
Thanks. Bye.

Why? It's Bioware who'd be herp derpin... Well, as an example for your refutation to the whole science thing, take the Kardashev scale. You say Bioware doesn't have to adhere to it, all i'm saying is that if their not going to adhere to it, they need to explain how the frak it works. You can't just go "space magic".

Heck, Bioware sets themselves up for it by saying the Reapers make all species develop the same. So there cannot be exceptions to the Kardashev scale, because Bioware has effectively binded themselves to it. The only possibility is the Leviathans, and they have done little in the way to make them an exception.

"It has been argued that, because we cannot understand advanced civilizations, we cannot predict their behavior"

We KNOW the leviathan's behavior and Evolution. Heck Bioware actually made them incapable of being an exception because them made them LESS capable compared to other species because they have been dependent on controlling type 2s. They are a pseudo type 2.