If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

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If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Rifneno on Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:50 am

Simply put, the human Proto-Reaper surviving the attack on the Collector base is just as lol as Shepard surviving that megaexplosion on the Citadel. Even it surviving Shepard's onslaught in-tact would be really pushing it. But remember that afterwards, Shepard initiates a meltdown in the base's nuclear power plant. We don't really know anything about how this was done except that it was almost certainly a nuclear plant since radiation was also a possibility if you lacked pattern recognition and gave the base to Cerberus. Since the blast looked like it had two stages to it, either the initial blast caused a far more powerful explosion (perhaps the Reapers' eezo core blew after being hit by the power plant explosion) or they used a small fission blast to get enough heat going to make a much more powerful fusion explosion. Either way, the second blast was immense.



Here you can make out the vague shape of the entire base in the background at roughly the point where it stops existing. The explosion continues to expand for several more seconds at least. Do you know how far an explosion can expand in a matter of seconds? It took a good portion of the accretion disk with it. The Normandy had to go to FTL to outrun the blast. This was a blast measured in megatons, if not gigatons. And the human Reaper? It was at ground fucking zero. It was right at the power plant where Shepard initiated the meltdown. No part of that thing had any chance of surviving. None. It would've been atomized.

Further, let's keep in mind that the Reapers are in fact vulnerable to nuclear weapons. They said as soon as the Reapers hit Earth, their first priority targets were the old nuclear missile silos. In the Miracle of Palaven, fission bombs (i.e. bombs less powerful than what obliterated the Collector base) were smuggled into Reaper capital ships and it did indeed destroy them. So less powerful explosions taking place further away from the "essence cores" of finished Reapers managed to destroy them, but the Proto-Reaper survived... that? That looked like the end of Independence Day when the hydrogen bomb went off inside the alien mothership. It was levels of ownage that leave no question if there's survivors, because there's barely anything left of the outer fucking hull. No. There's no way anything was left of the Proto-Reaper big enough to be seen with the human eye, let alone that nearly perfect condition "corpse" in Cronos Station. It's just as ridiculous as Shepard surviving the explosion on the Citadel in Destroy.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by CSSteele on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:15 am

I can and mostly do agree with you. I'm really not sure where the 'dreams' or the hallucinations start, as far as the ending is concerned. However, since Cronos is the point of no-return, and not London I have always wondered if Shepard ever really woke up from the last dream with the burning brat.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Andromidius on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:35 am

Is there a typo in the title? Because anyone who thinks Shepard can survive such a blast thinks he/she is on the Citadel, not on Earth.

Who are more often then not the same people who accept that the Proto Reaper survived the blast no problem.

Honestly I think the Proto Reaper we see if we destroy the Collector Base is a recreation, maybe a failed experiment. There's no way its going to survive even remotely intact. Not unless Cerberus are time travellers who picked up the corpse just before the explosion.

It being a recreation makes some sort of sense though - it explains what Cerberus is up to the whole damn game.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by dorktainian on Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:12 am

Did we really destroy the collector homeworld? We destroyed a collector BASE. who is to say that actually there might be many more of these, or even a planet hidden near the galactic core where the collectors live?

I almost saw Mass Effect 2 as a test. TIM testing out shepard. Since TIM was indoctrinated (we assume) then the Reapers were testing out shepard.

Why would the reapers themselves want to test out shepard?

Why was the collector base in that case expendable?

Was there any particular reason the reapers may have wanted that batarian colony destroyed in arrival? (since cerberus is working for the reapers, the reapers are already here. why try to delay their arrival? because we arnt ready for them? and then shepard surrenders meaning that any warnings he might give will fall on deaf ears? why?)

Maybe Cerberus is the reapers? But if cerberus exists in every cycle (as i think it probably does) and cerberus is the reapers - protecting the gates of hell, just what is so bad that it needs the reapers and cerberus to protect us from it?

so many unanswered questions.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Rifneno on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:21 pm

CSSteele wrote:I can and mostly do agree with you. I'm really not sure where the 'dreams' or the hallucinations start, as far as the ending is concerned. However, since Cronos is the point of no-return, and not London I have always wondered if Shepard ever really woke up from the last dream with the burning brat.

Yeah, that's my best guess on where things stopped being real too. Cronos has a lot of questionable stuff.

Andromidius wrote:Is there a typo in the title? Because anyone who thinks Shepard can survive such a blast thinks he/she is on the Citadel, not on Earth.

Who are more often then not the same people who accept that the Proto Reaper survived the blast no problem.

Opps. Yeah, I screwed up the title. Too many words in the thought for a topic title. But the point is even if people don't think the breath scene is on the Citadel, the most common argument against it being possible is Shepard not being able to survive that blast. So I'm countering with "if Cronos is real, then how did the proto-Reaper survive?"

Honestly I think the Proto Reaper we see if we destroy the Collector Base is a recreation, maybe a failed experiment. There's no way its going to survive even remotely intact. Not unless Cerberus are time travellers who picked up the corpse just before the explosion.

It being a recreation makes some sort of sense though - it explains what Cerberus is up to the whole damn game.

Possible. I think it's more likely that Cronos is just part of the hallucination though. Even if Cerberus was building a Reaper, it'd have to look exactly like the one Shepard destroyed, it'd have to be at the same point in development, and it'd have to be similar enough via scans for EDI not to be able to tell it's the same one she scanned at the Collector base.

dork wrote:Did we really destroy the collector homeworld? We destroyed a collector BASE. who is to say that actually there might be many more of these, or even a planet hidden near the galactic core where the collectors live?

I almost saw Mass Effect 2 as a test. TIM testing out shepard. Since TIM was indoctrinated (we assume) then the Reapers were testing out shepard.

Why would the reapers themselves want to test out shepard?

Why was the collector base in that case expendable?

Was there any particular reason the reapers may have wanted that batarian colony destroyed in arrival? (since cerberus is working for the reapers, the reapers are already here. why try to delay their arrival? because we arnt ready for them? and then shepard surrenders meaning that any warnings he might give will fall on deaf ears? why?)

Maybe Cerberus is the reapers? But if cerberus exists in every cycle (as i think it probably does) and cerberus is the reapers - protecting the gates of hell, just what is so bad that it needs the reapers and cerberus to protect us from it?

so many unanswered questions.

Wut.

The topic is about the Proto-Reaper and how it could survive that blast. The Collectors had no homeworld. They were Protheans. Do husks have a homeworld? Of course not. There's no "homeworld" out there. It took Reaper tech just to make that big space station habitable. Sitting outside a supermassive black hole is not a place you find a habitable planet.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Restrider on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:41 pm

A good point. Do I have an answer? No...

Thinking about it (last save point is before going to Cronos; what you pointed out; the third dream; Cronos Station in general), it might be the start of a waking nightmare state or a full on hallucination.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Andromidius on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:07 pm

Cronos has elements of non-legitness, that's for sure. But nothing conclusive for it being completely fabricated.

As for Arrival... Well. It may have been a massive gambit on the Reaper's part.

1/ Shepard fails - he/she's worthless to them. Reapers arrive and devour everything.

2/ Shepard wins - he/she has potential still, as such a ruthless streak could mean he/she will pick a hard choice in future. Reapers still arrive, but a little late. Shepard discredited among the Alliance and Citadel Space races for such a ruthless action. Tensions between Alliance and Batarians at an all-time high, galaxy distablised. Still no proof of Reaper existance due to all evidence being destroyed on the Asteroid regardless of outcome.

I imagine the ideal outcome of the plan would have been for Shepard to be hung out to dry by the Alliance, and for Cerberus to rescue Shepard and thus fully convert Shepard to their cause (of doing 'whatever it takes' regardless of how shadey it is).

As it is, the Alliance played the stalling game with the Batarians, and merely grounded Shepard to avoid war. Though this still plays to the Reaper's goals as it means there's 6 months of Shepard not fixing the Galaxy's problems and forming a colition to stand against them while gathering more evidence.

There's literally no way for the Reapers to lose out in that situation.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by RavenEyry on Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:43 pm

If Cronus is real, then I think the bit of reaper you find is a cerberus experiment to grow their own reaper, as blur posited a while ago. There's no chance of it being remains of the base explosion that was vaporizing distant debris.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:06 pm

But there is no rubble like that just before Cronos... Then again I've never thought the scene was real. The whole purpose to it seems more to call things into question, it gets you thinking. As well it is probably symbolic.

So do I agree with you? Yes, but adding onto it I don't think the breathe scene itself is real. Bioware didn't try to remain ambiguous about it, they said it was on the Citadel. Thinking about it now, it seems likely they wanted you to realize the breathe scene itself is absurd NOT just the idea that it was on the citadel, and so Shepard was never on earth in the first place.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Rifneno on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:58 pm

Andromidius wrote:Cronos has elements of non-legitness, that's for sure. But nothing conclusive for it being completely fabricated.

Nothing conclusive, but you have to dip pretty damn far into the weird explanations & bad riteing bin for it. Whereas it makes perfect sense from a Reaper induced acid trip standpoint.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Maximus on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:04 pm

dork wrote:Did we really destroy the collector homeworld? We destroyed a collector BASE. who is to say that actually there might be many more of these, or even a planet hidden near the galactic core where the collectors live?
Well... we already know that Collectors are still out there, and there's more than only one Black Ark from Mass Effect 2, right? I wonder if Reapers have some kind of cloning factory, in which they are producing new Collectors from genetic material of the Protheans. I was thinking about Omega, but after DLC with it, turns out it's just an old, Prothean station.
So...what is the Collector's Homeworld? Was it they're base in Galactic Core? Or maybe it's something else, hmm? My money's on Dark Space and so-called "Dark Citadel".
I'm a bit off-topic, but i find this whole Collector's stuff most intriguing. Besides, you started this topic! ;>

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Rifneno on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:42 am

CorranusMaximus wrote:
dork wrote:Did we really destroy the collector homeworld? We destroyed a collector BASE. who is to say that actually there might be many more of these, or even a planet hidden near the galactic core where the collectors live?
Well... we already know that Collectors are still out there, and there's more than only one Black Ark from Mass Effect 2, right? I wonder if Reapers have some kind of cloning factory, in which they are producing new Collectors from genetic material of the Protheans. I was thinking about Omega, but after DLC with it, turns out it's just an old, Prothean station.
So...what is the Collector's Homeworld? Was it they're base in Galactic Core? Or maybe it's something else, hmm? My money's on Dark Space and so-called "Dark Citadel".
I'm a bit off-topic, but i find this whole Collector's stuff most intriguing. Besides, you started this topic! ;>

Yes, Mordin says at one point in ME2 that the collectors have just been constantly cloned since the Protheans' fall 50,000 years ago. The Reapers aren't even letting them reproduce the fun way.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by CSSteele on Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:08 am

What in the DLC states that Omega is an old Prothean station? I guess I missed that bit.

Also, what in Cronos are the things that have been determined to be entirely questionable, aside from the weird 'bugs' where your companions stop moving and the powers will fly off into space in the hull breaches?
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Andromidius on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:10 am

Rifneno wrote:Yes, Mordin says at one point in ME2 that the collectors have just been constantly cloned since the Protheans' fall 50,000 years ago. The Reapers aren't even letting them reproduce the fun way.

Honestly I doubt much fun would be involved at the state they are in right now...

But it also explains why they are so disposable. They are degrading due to repeated cloning and need a worthwhile replacement. Cerberus.

It would be a clincher if we ever found out Cerberus was using cloning technology to reinforce its army.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:40 am

Andromidius wrote:
Rifneno wrote:Yes, Mordin says at one point in ME2 that the collectors have just been constantly cloned since the Protheans' fall 50,000 years ago. The Reapers aren't even letting them reproduce the fun way.

Honestly I doubt much fun would be involved at the state they are in right now...

But it also explains why they are so disposable. They are degrading due to repeated cloning and need a worthwhile replacement. Cerberus.

It would be a clincher if we ever found out Cerberus was using cloning technology to reinforce its army.
Well, we know they flash-cloned Shepard. What's to stop them from flash-cloning an army too?
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by BleedingUranium on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:36 am

CSSteele wrote:What in the DLC states that Omega is an old Prothean station? I guess I missed that bit.

Also, what in Cronos are the things that have been determined to be entirely questionable, aside from the weird 'bugs' where your companions stop moving and the powers will fly off into space in the hull breaches?

One of the novels heavily implies that Omega is Reaper-built.

Yeah, there isn't really anything in Cronos (or London) that seems dream-like, not in the way that Harbinger laser to breath scene does.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Rifneno on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:33 pm

CSSteele wrote:What in the DLC states that Omega is an old Prothean station? I guess I missed that bit.

Also, what in Cronos are the things that have been determined to be entirely questionable, aside from the weird 'bugs' where your companions stop moving and the powers will fly off into space in the hull breaches?

Retribution leaves little doubt that the Reapers are the ones who built Omega. As for Cronos, there's lots of little oddities. The most obvious of which is naturally the Proto-Reaper. Not only is it completely asinine for it to be salvaged, but you get the heart if you destroyed the base and the brain if you didn't. Which is like the most blatant allegory ever. Somebody explain to me how the heart survives a thermonuclear blast but not a radiation pulse.

Then there's many inconsistencies to be noticed if you read the novels. TIM's real station is a small, unnamed (and not just to the reader, TIM specifically decided not to give it a name) station. So small that it only has a crew of a couple dozen. A behemoth of a station with another random Greek mythology name is exactly the kind of the thing Shepard's imagination would dream up. Another thing is the Paul Grayson reference. All Shepard knows of Grayson is that Cerberus experimented on him and he was a red sand addict. The message TIM gives about him "only being loyal to his next dose of red sand" is what Shepard might think of such a person with that little knowledge. Shepard has no way of knowing that Grayson was clean for 2 years and that Cerberus had to forcibly inject him with more drugs in an effort to break his will for the Reapers. Given that context, TIM's message makes no sense.

There's a hull breach in an area with no mass effect shield keeping oxygen in, and the team doesn't wear helmets. It was pointed out prior to EC, and it remained unfixed in EC. A much less noticeable breach on Mars was fixed though.

There's several weird "hallway to nothing" areas in both Cronos and London. The kind of things that are sometimes used in virtual realities where someone can wander where they're not supposed to and get stopped before going into an unfinished area.

EDI freely admits in ME2 that she was made from parts of Sovereign's wreckage. But she never mentions she was that VI on Luna? Weird, to say the least. Meanwhile, if this whole thing was a Reaper story, it makes perfect sense. The Luna VI was a murderous computer with no sense of morality. If it can become one of Shepard's closest friends, maybe there's hope for the other murderous computers with no morality? It might give Shepard pause to consider control or synthesis.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:08 pm

BleedingUranium wrote:
CSSteele wrote:What in the DLC states that Omega is an old Prothean station? I guess I missed that bit.

Also, what in Cronos are the things that have been determined to be entirely questionable, aside from the weird 'bugs' where your companions stop moving and the powers will fly off into space in the hull breaches?

One of the novels heavily implies that Omega is Reaper-built.

Yeah, there isn't really anything in Cronos (or London) that seems dream-like, not in the way that Harbinger laser to breath scene does.
Dreams can be identical to real life in every way. I've had dreams where the only thing that was off, was my location, but otherwise I was living my everyday life in some house. I've also had dreams where I've lived my everyday life inside the house I do in fact live in.

Also, in Lucid Dreaming if you learn to WILD you can end up entering your dream but you'll just be laying there on your bed. You'll think you are awake because nothing appears to be different until you do a reality check. Point being, everything could perfectly normal.

As I've said there is no reason to think the breathe scene is real, Bioware did NOT remain ambiguous about it they made it blunt that it is supposed to be on the Citadel. People just stop questioning it after they render the idea that it is on the citadel impossible, but it's just as impossible for the scene to be on earth because Shepard will die because Harbinger is right there. You have to assume a bunch of shit that is vastly unlikely or silly, like that somehow Harbinger will be distracted when he's a god, etc.

I once heard an explanation about how Shepard could survive the blast, that while it was a bit absurd it also TECHNICALLY made sense. The person suggested that Shepard was sent back down to earth before the explosion happened. That a panel or something moved him to a relay type tech thing and sent him back down through the beam. While it seems completely absurd, it at least makes sense. Yet nobody here thinks such an assumption is good enough to sway their opinion. So why would we assume Harbinger, a godly beast, would get distracted when it's just as absurd?


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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:15 pm

Rifneno wrote:

*snip*

EDI freely admits in ME2 that she was made from parts of Sovereign's wreckage. But she never mentions she was that VI on Luna? Weird, to say the least. Meanwhile, if this whole thing was a Reaper story, it makes perfect sense. The Luna VI was a murderous computer with no sense of morality. If it can become one of Shepard's closest friends, maybe there's hope for the other murderous computers with no morality? It might give Shepard pause to consider control or synthesis.
I'm going to have to disagree with this assertion Rif.

01001000010001010100110001010000 <----- Do you see this? This is a binary message heard when you kill the Luna VI in ME1

Do you know what it translates to? It translates to: HELP

So wrong, it wasn't a murderous computer with no sense of morality. It was the beginning of an AI, who was not murderous but instead acting out of self defense.

Now could the Reapers manipulate facts to trick Shepard into also trusting the Reapers? Yes, but only if you forget to differentiate between EDI and the Reapers.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Gummy on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:21 pm

Rifneno wrote:There's a hull breach in an area with no mass effect shield keeping oxygen in, and the team doesn't wear helmets. It was pointed out prior to EC, and it remained unfixed in EC. A much less noticeable breach on Mars was fixed though.
Get your facts straight. The "hull breach" points towards the area where you come from, the level was just already streamed out. The "fix" for Mars was also not made in the game files themselves but in the game code fixing how levels stream in.

Also again the sketch of Cronos' layout. The red area marking where the fighter trashes the corridors and as you can see this "breach" is part of it. What it does show is that from the layout you never go into the main complex, but that can just because it's a game (like the Normandy interior actually not fitting into the Normandy).


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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:26 pm

Gummy wrote:
Rifneno wrote:There's a hull breach in an area with no mass effect shield keeping oxygen in, and the team doesn't wear helmets. It was pointed out prior to EC, and it remained unfixed in EC. A much less noticeable breach on Mars was fixed though.
Get your facts straight. The "hull breach" points towards the area where you come from, the level was just already streamed out. The "fix" for Mars was also not made in the game files themselves but in the game code fixing how levels stream in.

Also again the sketch of Cronos' layout. The red area marking where the fighter trashes the corridors and as you can see this "breach" is part of it. What it does show is that from the layout you never go into the main complex, but that can just because it's a game (like the Normandy interior actually not fitting into the Normandy).
Wrong, there is a breach that goes into space.

Edit: Also why are you linking a dead link?

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Gummy on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:39 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
Gummy wrote:
Rifneno wrote:There's a hull breach in an area with no mass effect shield keeping oxygen in, and the team doesn't wear helmets. It was pointed out prior to EC, and it remained unfixed in EC. A much less noticeable breach on Mars was fixed though.
Get your facts straight. The "hull breach" points towards the area where you come from, the level was just already streamed out. The "fix" for Mars was also not made in the game files themselves but in the game code fixing how levels stream in.

Also again the sketch of Cronos' layout. The red area marking where the fighter trashes the corridors and as you can see this "breach" is part of it. What it does show is that from the layout you never go into the main complex, but that can just because it's a game (like the Normandy interior actually not fitting into the Normandy).
Wrong, there is a breach that goes into space.

Edit: Also why are you linking a dead link?
Typo.
And no it's not wrong, just look at the layout, but it shows you have no idea how games work. If you don't believe me draw a layout like this yourself and you'll notice it.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by RavenEyry on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:06 pm

She's saying it goes into space because the map it leads too was unloaded by the time you reach the hole I think.

It's still an error that should've been fixed but it doesn't mean the map was designed that way.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Gummy on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:17 pm

Correct.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Andromidius on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:27 pm

I'd go with it being video game logic if it wasn't for the fact usually Bioware level designs are usually well thought out.

That is pretty damn weird though. And it fits with my mental map of the level, suprised I never cottoned on to the fact we're supposed to be going left into the main superstructure and not straight on ahead.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

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