If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:38 pm

Selim Bradley wrote:
And logic isn't universal because too much shapes a person's view of it. Things like culture, religion, ethics, etc.

So I'm not a true ME fan because I don't want exactly what you want? Again, you seem awfully closeminded for someone who preaches that we should be openminded.

At any rate, I'm done. When someone results to petty insults like that, I know any further dialogue with them is a pointless endeavor.
That makes no sense, that's a non sequitur. You are saying logic is not universal because some people aren't logical. If you claim to be logical, that is irrelevant.

No you would not be a true ME fan BECAUSE you are suggesting ideas that would kill the trilogy even more. Reapers are supposed to be gods who have some agenda that we cannot fully comprehend, not a bunch of idiots who are not scary at all -_-

Nah, it's fruitless because you are being illogical.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:41 pm

I absolutely hate it when people try to define who the "true fans" are. That was the most annoying part of Star Wars forums for me.

IT is not proven.


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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:41 pm

Drewton wrote:
Exactly, it only seemed to become about a deus ex machina in ME3 when that plot thread popped out of the blue at Mars. They only just discover a Reaper-destroying superweapon at the start of the war? Convenient.

On the contrary, Shepard was constantly defying the Reaper's expectations. With Sovereign, and the Suicide Mission. Shepard was an anomaly. And had the races of the previous cycle been so united?

Why didn't the Prothean VI mention a Reaper-destroying superweapon if a deus ex was always planned?
As well, why would the Reapers wait for this out-of-the-blue weapon to be constructed? It would be far from shocking if the next thing ya know, you find out the Reapers planted the blueprints. They are the #1 suspect so far. Even if you don't think it was them, they are still the top suspect.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:44 pm

Gummy wrote:I mean just think about it: it took the whole Citadel defense force plus multiple alliance fleets and the Normandy to destroy the Geth and Sovereign.
Then in ME2 in the first minutes their lackeys destroyed the Normandy and killed her. Also remember TIMs words when you have your first chat in ME2:
Shep: "You could have trained an entire army for what you've spend to bring me back."
TIM: "You're unique. Not just in ability or what you've experienced but in what you represent. You stood for humanity in a key moment, you're more than a soldier. You're a symbol. And I don't know if the Reapers understand fear, but you've killed one and they have to respect that."
The Reapers might have to respect that, but at the same time their lackeys could destroy and kill her with ease before. Now what value do they give a person like Shep?

Actually it was just the Arcturus Fleet which assaults Sovereign according to what Joker tells you in ME1 when he regains contact with you aboard the Citadel. Considering the Alliance possessed only 9 Dreadnoughts spread across 8 fleets chances are good there was just 1 or 2 Dreadnoughts against Sovereign. Considering a Sovereign Class reaper takes 3 Dreadnoughts to overcome the barriers it is no surprise the fleet struggled with Sovereign.

However technology advanced rapidly after that encounter, most notably with the Thanix Cannon, a weapon reverse engineered from Sovereign which proves very effective against the Reapers according to ME3 codexes. The JAVELIN Missile Launcher is also just a experimental weapon in ME1 and ME2 fitted on only handful of Alliance ships, but by ME3 a War asset details how every single ship in the fleet has been outfitted with Javelins, even the Dreadnoughts who should not see close combat.

Also Shepard is special to the Reapers because Shepard made the defeat of a Reaper possible. According to what we know the Reapers rarely suffer casualties so Shepard making a casualty possible automatically makes Shepard interesting. Later feats only increase the interest.

But also earlier you mentioned how we stand no chance because the more advanced Protheans were defeated. You forget the Protheans were scattered and isolated in their systems as the Relays went offline. This made them easy prey for the Reaper fleets. This cycle on the other hand unites in one massive fleet which even under the best Reaper circumstances will inflict some casualties to them. Considering the Reaper way of reproduction, that is not a desirable outcome to them.

However I do stand by that the Reaper forces will win at Earth without a weapon of some kind evening the odds. I also think the Crucible is a trap of some form, but one which can be turned against the Reapers. Several ideas as to how the Reapers might be defeated even should the Crucible be a trap have been thrown around in these threads, mostly pertaining to the fact that the Crucible generate massive amounts of energy and depending on where you direct that energy some positive results might still come of it.


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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:44 pm

Drewton wrote:I absolutely hate it when people try to define who the "true fans" are.
So, someone who promoted the endings as real. Meaning Synthesis, is a happy beam of green where everything is perfect. Control works, etc. You don't think all of that rapes the entire trilogy? Could've sworn it did. Under what definition, is a person who rapes the series count as a fan? A fan is someone devoted enough to the series that they are aware of the major themes, etc. Enough to not tear it apart.

Someone who contradicts lore, is not a fan as far as I knew because they actually don't care to know it.


Last edited by IronicParticle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:46 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
Drewton wrote:I absolutely hate it when people try to define who the "true fans" are.
So, someone who promoted the endings as real. Meaning Synthesis, is a happy beam of green where everything is perfect. Control works, etc. You don't think all of that rapes the entire trilogy? Could've sworn it did. Under what definition, is a person who rapes the series count as a fan? A fan is someone devoted enough to the series that they are aware of the major themes, etc. Enough to not tear it apart.
No offence, but this is sheer utter bullshit.

I could say that the Star Wars special editions raped the movies, and that therefore anyone who likes them isn't a true fan. But that's ridiculous. And the special editions no matter how bad they are are official.

And you say that the endings should remain ambiguous so that people, even though they're not actually fans, can still have their literal interpretations?

No matter their views on the ending, if someone likes, plays, and enjoys Mass Effect, then they are a fan.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:48 pm

Drewton wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Drewton wrote:I absolutely hate it when people try to define who the "true fans" are.
So, someone who promoted the endings as real. Meaning Synthesis, is a happy beam of green where everything is perfect. Control works, etc. You don't think all of that rapes the entire trilogy? Could've sworn it did. Under what definition, is a person who rapes the series count as a fan? A fan is someone devoted enough to the series that they are aware of the major themes, etc. Enough to not tear it apart.
No offence, but this is sheer bullshit.

I could say that the Star Wars special editions raped the movies, and that therefore anyone who likes them isn't a true fan. But that's ridiculous. And the special editions no matter how bad they are are official.

No matter their views on the ending, if someone likes, plays, and enjoys Mass Effect, then they are a fan.
you have a point BECAUSE THEY WERE OFFICIAL.

Meaning, a true fan accepts them. But that's a failed example, because in this case against all evidence they are suggesting the endings were real and they are trying to defend it.

With star wars, it's lore. The special editions are lore. But literalism is a contradiction of the lore.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:50 pm

But there is no proof yet that the endings weren't real and meant to be officially reality.

"you have a point BECAUSE THEY WERE OFFICIAL.

Meaning, a true fan accepts them."

So if literal endings were official, only true fans would accept them?

There are no "true fans", only fans.
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:52 pm

Drewton wrote:
IT is not proven.
Also... Drewton that is just horrible.

Yes, it is. Shepard suffers from every symptom of indoctrination. That's proof by definition.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:53 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
Drewton wrote:
IT is not proven.
Also... Drewton that is just horrible.

Yes, it is. Shepard suffers from every symptom of indoctrination. That's proof by definition.
However much evidence there is, there is no proof until BioWare says IT in the endings was what they intended.

The EC expanded on the literal endings.


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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:54 pm

Drewton wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Drewton wrote:
IT is not proven.
Also... Drewton that is just horrible.

Yes, it is. Shepard suffers from every symptom of indoctrination. That's proof by definition.
However much evidence there is, there is no proof until BioWare says IT was what they intended.
Wrong.

Proof is simply conclusive evidence. If The Catalyst had said directly that he was indoctrinating Shepard, but Bioware said "Nope, it was not intended, ignore the Catalyst". It would still be proven regardless of what they say.

The content speaks the true intentions.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:56 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
Drewton wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Drewton wrote:
IT is not proven.
Also... Drewton that is just horrible.

Yes, it is. Shepard suffers from every symptom of indoctrination. That's proof by definition.
However much evidence there is, there is no proof until BioWare says IT was what they intended.
Wrong.

Proof is simply conclusive evidence. If The Catalyst had said directly that he was indoctrinating Shepard, but Bioware said "Nope, it was not intended, ignore the Catalyst". It would still be proven regardless of what they say.
Sorry, but until BioWare comes out and says it, IT is simply not proven. Seems like we'll have to agree to disagree.

When did the Catalyst ever say he was indoctrinating Shepard?

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:02 pm

Drewton wrote:
Sorry, but until BioWare comes out and says it, IT is simply not proven. Seems like we'll have to agree to disagree.

When did the Catalyst ever say he was indoctrinating Shepard?
You didn't even refute what I said, you just repeated yourself.

So you are wrong then.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:04 pm

Likewise.

And you didn't answer when the Catalyst explicitly said he was indoctrinating Shepard.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:07 pm

Drewton wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Drewton wrote:
IT is not proven.
Also... Drewton that is just horrible.

Yes, it is. Shepard suffers from every symptom of indoctrination. That's proof by definition.
However much evidence there is, there is no proof until BioWare says IT in the endings was what they intended.

The EC expanded on the literal endings.

And much stupidity and out of characterness did the EC add as well? Those the evac scene ring any bells? That scene makes no sense for so many characters involved.

People who fought alongside Shepard for several games, some of which went on a litteral suicide mission with him against the Collectors without batting an eyelash now retreat on his orders (the mere fact that he even give this order is mind boggling) during the most important part of a mission where failure means the complete extermination of life anywhere.

This order is obeyed by the likes of Javik who has made it quite clear he will see the Reapers dead or die trying and EDI who is not even in direct danger as her body is essentially remote controlled...it is also far more durable than anyone else there.

Beyond that there are the the logical problem of the Normandy picking up every single squad mate, likely spread out across London, in mere minutes...this despite chatter indicating the Normandy was part of the battle in Space.

Then Citadel added a scene of Liara essentially telling Shepard (if she is his LI) that she would not leave his side no matter what happens. She still retreats on the Normandy.

Really the EC did not exactly do wonders to convince me things were happening exactly as it seems because it makes everyone involved seem very out of character, incredibly selfish or complete morons who don't get the severity of the situation (including Harbinger who apparently cant see a Frigate 50 meters in front of him.)

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:09 pm

For me, all the EC did was make the endings even more ambiguous. While they added some fishy things they also tried to cover up some plot holes/inconsistencies. So it certainly doesn't prove IT.


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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:11 pm

Drewton wrote:For me, all the EC did was make the endings even more ambiguous. It certainly doesn't prove IT. While they added some fishy things they also tried to cover up some plot holes/inconsistencies.

Which? The only I can think of is how the crew got on the Normandy (which is sketchy all on its own). There is still the massive inconsistency that a habitable planet is somehow within easy FTL travel distance of Earth among other things...

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:13 pm

Drewton wrote:For me, all the EC did was make the endings even more ambiguous. While they added some fishy things they also tried to cover up some plot holes/inconsistencies. So it certainly doesn't prove IT.
I said IT was proven, not that specifically the EC proved it.

Shepard suffers from all symptoms = Proven.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:14 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
Drewton wrote:For me, all the EC did was make the endings even more ambiguous. It certainly doesn't prove IT. While they added some fishy things they also tried to cover up some plot holes/inconsistencies.

Which? The only I can think of is how the crew got on the Normandy (which is sketchy all on its own). There is still the massive inconsistency that a habitable planet is somehow within easy FTL travel distance of Earth among other things...
They tried to explain things like Hackett finding out someone made it to he beam, and the Normandy evac scene. It really hoped both viewpoints IMO.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:15 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
Drewton wrote:For me, all the EC did was make the endings even more ambiguous. While they added some fishy things they also tried to cover up some plot holes/inconsistencies. So it certainly doesn't prove IT.
Shepard suffers from all symptoms = Proven.
Shepard has the symptoms, but there is still no absolute proof that the endings are indoctrination.

And again, you haven't answered my question about the Catalyst.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:27 pm

Drewton wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Drewton wrote:For me, all the EC did was make the endings even more ambiguous. While they added some fishy things they also tried to cover up some plot holes/inconsistencies. So it certainly doesn't prove IT.
Shepard suffers from all symptoms = Proven.
Shepard has the symptoms, but there is still no absolute proof that the endings are indoctrination.

And again, you haven't answered my question about the Catalyst.
There is no such thing as absolute proof. Absolutely prove you exist... you can't.

Proof: Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

It's proven because IT is fact, hence Theory. As for the Catalyst, your question confuses me because I was giving an example. I was simply saying that regardless of proof Bioware is still going to say it wasn't necessarily intended. Anyways, if you are going to respond... do it in a PM. This off-topic discussion has been going on long enough.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:29 pm

Cronos Station does not seem real because of how perfectly it was lined up. Why would you wipe out Cerberus JUST before going to wipe out the Reapers? It just seems too perfect.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by RavenEyry on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:30 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
It's proven because IT is fact, hence Theory.

What is this, I don't even...
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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:34 pm

RavenEyry wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
It's proven because IT is fact, hence Theory.

What is this, I don't even...
Please refute it or shut the fuck up.

Proof: Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

IT is fact, because as a Theory we've compiled evidence that establishes it as so. Since it's fact, that means it's proven.

In this same way, Evolution is proven and only batshit crazy people end up question it. So I don't get the double standard.

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:36 pm

RavenEyry wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
It's proven because IT is fact, hence Theory.

What is this, I don't even...

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Re: If you think the breath scene isn't on the Citadel and that Cronos Station is real: WHY?

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