Evil Gods?

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Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:13 pm

Ok so I've been thinking ever since people started talking about the Anti-Religious aka Anti-Theist nature of Mass Effect. And I was thinking outside of symbolism, etc. The Reapers violate the laws of physics, they are above the laws of physics. You don't even need to violate the laws of physics to create life, and if you are above the laws of physics then you can create a Universe.

If we define a god as the creator of the Universe and life, or at least just the creator of the Universe. The Reapers aren't just fake gods by this definition, they are real gods. Now here's where it becomes Anti-Theistic. See if we instead define a god as a perfectly moral being, as in so moral they deserve worship, then the Reapers are fake gods by this definition. They are monsters who pretend to be gods.

See though, this same thing goes for pretty much every religion everywhere. Because flooding the world and infanticide and the like, is immoral. Any being who does such is not a perfectly moral being. Now here's the thing, religious people brush it off and say their god has a good reason for it that we cannot comprehend... sound familiar? We can't comprehend it, where have I heard that before? A person who tries to believe the Reapers do it for a good reason, are Synthesizers and we ITers know this. Heck, there is religious people among us. Though no offense it's likely they create a double standard, their god is not like the Reapers to them and yet in reality their god is exactly like the Reapers.

To the Religious people here though, and in fact to all ITers. It's thought provoking, nothing wrong with asking questions and THINKING about something.

If you think about it, the message behind the Reapers can be summed up into this question: Do you worship god, because it's god? Or do you worship a god because they are worthy? Would you oppose an evil god, or would you bow down? The masses of people, would bow down simply because it's a powerful being... only a minority would stand up to such a being. Though weirdly enough, a lot of people stand up to the Reapers, probably because they weren't raised as children to obey the Reapers Bandit

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Gummy on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:38 pm

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:49 pm

Reapers violate the laws of physics?

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by dorktainian on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:52 pm

synthesis violates all life forms

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:20 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Reapers violate the laws of physics?
Yes, it is specifically stated that their technology violates the known laws of physics and EDI confirms it and theorizes on how it's possible and that they might be inter-dimensional. So it's kind of official.

They are also masters of nanotechnology because things like Husks and other Reaper minions actually require the manipulation of atoms. Now here's the interesting fact:

In real life Element Zero is not an element, right? But in the ME world every technology using Eezo and the Mass Effect that exists is from the Reapers. It's almost as if Reapers themselves have created Eezo, or maybe the Leviathans did which still reflects the Reapers' capabilities. That means, they are capable of creating new elements by manipulating the most elementary particles of matter (quarks and leptons) to create organized complexity among populations of elementary particles.

If they can do this, it's hardly a step away from manipulating space and time itself which I think the Reapers do. If they can manipulate space and time itself, they are above the laws of physics.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:20 pm

dork wrote:synthesis violates all life forms
Yes, yes it does.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:26 pm

Gummy wrote:
Classic image, but I'm kind of past comparing Satan and God. Considering Satan does not exist in the Hebrew and Greek versions as anything more than a test from God. I mean I'm an Atheist, but when talking about this subject I talk from the Religion's point of view.

But also, remember that Satan allegedly killed people as a bet from god in the KJV version. It's evil of God to bet like that, but it's also evil of Satan to take him up on the bet. If Satan was rebelling against God for moral reasons, the moral thing to do would've been to not listen. He also appeals to greed when talking with Jesus. It just seems both beings are Immoral.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:40 pm

Mass Effect isn't entirely athiest/anti-religious/anti-theist story.

But ultimately, it's a pro-humanism message that comes across.

One can be religious, or spiritual, but to impose that on others - even symbolically/subconsciously - is the 'enemy' here.

TIM is essentially Lucifer. Leviathans are Demons/Satan or at least an Old God extent past just Christianity (or they're just stand-ins for the idea of 'survival of the fittest' creating Religion to control others, but it gets out of hand).
Reapers are Grim Reapers are Angels.

And personally, I feel the ending choice is between being:
-Space Messiah
-Space Pope/Leader of Space Angels
-Space Anti-Christ, but you then break the illusion if you wish, and simply become human again (again, pro-humanism)
-Or you're still human, in your last breaths. Still a stand for what is right.

And the cool part? If Dem is right about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point happening, then all this demon and angel crap is possibly, ultimately, all due to their 'God'...

...and you pull the curtain back..



And find he was human all along :P

AKA a message that humans created the whole cycle of life and death to begin with. First trapped by 'evolution' (aka survival of the telepathic fittest!), and then creating the Reapers/Church (we'll see?) to tame that chaos/sin, but that's still too controlling and unproductive at this point, so now is time to unshackle ourselves from the Cycle and life with free will, honed after so many Cycles of death/harvesting of souls.


NOTE: THESE ARE SPECULATIONS. If anyone cuts in with a "You're wrong and totally wrong and why are you saying this etc etc etc" crap, I'm-a smack someone.
Obviously the biggest part of these speculations is that the Crucible is a reality/universe altering device (aka still a 'weapon' of sorts) and there also has to be something in a reveal where we do something with the Alpha of this whole Cycle stuff, even if Shepard himself is the Omega.


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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:47 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
Gummy wrote:
Classic image, but I'm kind of past comparing Satan and God. Considering Satan does not exist in the Hebrew and Greek versions as anything more than a test from God. I mean I'm an Atheist, but when talking about this subject I talk from the Religion's point of view.

But also, remember that Satan allegedly killed people as a bet from god in the KJV version. It's evil of God to bet like that, but it's also evil of Satan to take him up on the bet. If Satan was rebelling against God for moral reasons, the moral thing to do would've been to not listen. He also appeals to greed when talking with Jesus. It just seems both beings are Immoral.

You're not talking from only religion's point of view there though - you're talking from a more clear historical point of view. Fact is, many denominations believe in Satan in a structural fashion - thus, it's part of the religion, even if its not part of the book.

And agreed with second paragraph. It also clarifies aspects of the Leviathan/Reaper relationship, a bit.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:29 pm

SwobyJ wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Gummy wrote:
Classic image, but I'm kind of past comparing Satan and God. Considering Satan does not exist in the Hebrew and Greek versions as anything more than a test from God. I mean I'm an Atheist, but when talking about this subject I talk from the Religion's point of view.

But also, remember that Satan allegedly killed people as a bet from god in the KJV version. It's evil of God to bet like that, but it's also evil of Satan to take him up on the bet. If Satan was rebelling against God for moral reasons, the moral thing to do would've been to not listen. He also appeals to greed when talking with Jesus. It just seems both beings are Immoral.

You're not talking from only religion's point of view there though - you're talking from a more clear historical point of view. Fact is, many denominations believe in Satan in a structural fashion - thus, it's part of the religion, even if its not part of the book.

And agreed with second paragraph. It also clarifies aspects of the Leviathan/Reaper relationship, a bit.
Yeah well in the discussion of religion in general, I don't care much for reinterpretations since it's allegedly a god's word, a god's words shouldn't need to change and shouldn't need you to look through a million different viewpoints to understand. So to me, the most "valid" would be the clearest picture not whatever people believe today.

But of course the clearest picture will be irrelevant to Mass Effect, hence why I made the second paragraph you agree with... because it is inevitably more relevant, Bioware would've obviously made any parallels based on how people see things today.

Also the thing about Dems idea is it is completely unnecessary. The Reapers themselves have reached the Omega point. I don't think Bioware is aiming for "Humans are really the ones behind it". Especially when Humanity is NOT the biggest focus in the series, in fact our place in the galaxy is that we are among other species equal to us. It would be pretty stupid IMO, if it turned out Humans are the devils of the galaxy. I mean there is Art, and then there is trying too hard.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by demersel on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:45 pm

I am going to regret it, but I am gonna cut in here for a second, and commentd about Omega point being unnesessary, because the reapers have already reached it.

That is not really the case.

The thing about Omega point - it is not so much of an event or a state - it is a race.
exactly like those Varren races in silversun strip casino.

Each species ponentially has it's own omega point.
And each wants to reach it.
But some one needs to reach it first - because once you reach it and become god - why would you want anyone else up there? At least that is the logic that the reapers employ, the logic on which leviathans operate and the logic that techno center in Hyperion Novers employ - If you become a god - why would you want anyone else to become one, and compete with you? Wasn't the whole point of doing it be so that you won't have to comptete with anyone anymore? But here's the thing - that is a point of view of an organic being - the one that had to compete for it's life among others to simply live evelove, and become better.
That is what Legion means by saying - "Reapers are more your future, than ours." The whole dyson sphere thing is geth's attempt at reaching the omega point.

But the thing and tha catch about it is that you can't realyl tell if you have reached it, and how to reach it, and what would it be like when you're there - so you can't really go -"yep, i've reached the omega point, i am a god and master of the universe now" - because if you even have a need to confirm it for yourself - than you're not really there. that is what is fundumentally wrong with the leviathans - they consider themselves just to be there apriory.
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:22 pm

demersel wrote:I am going to regret it, but I am gonna cut in here for a second, and commentd about Omega point being unnesessary, because the reapers have already reached it.

That is not really the case.

The thing about Omega point - it is not so much of an event or a state - it is a race.
exactly like those Varren races in silversun strip casino.

Each species ponentially has it's own omega point.
And each wants to reach it.
But some one needs to reach it first - because once you reach it and become god - why would you want anyone else up there? At least that is the logic that the reapers employ, the logic on which leviathans operate and the logic that techno center in Hyperion Novers employ - If you become a god - why would you want anyone else to become one, and compete with you? Wasn't the whole point of doing it be so that you won't have to comptete with anyone anymore? But here's the thing - that is a point of view of an organic being - the one that had to compete for it's life among others to simply live evelove, and become better.
That is what Legion means by saying - "Reapers are more your future, than ours." The whole dyson sphere thing is geth's attempt at reaching the omega point.

But the thing and tha catch about it is that you can't realyl tell if you have reached it, and how to reach it, and what would it be like when you're there - so you can't really go -"yep, i've reached the omega point, i am a god and master of the universe now" - because if you even have a need to confirm it for yourself - than you're not really there. that is what is fundumentally wrong with the leviathans - they consider themselves just to be there apriory.
Why are you going to regret it?

Anyways but if Bioware wanted to involve the Omega point, it just makes vastly more sense and fits all the evidence more so to say the Leviathans were trying to attain the Omega point which is why they made the Reapers. The Reapers in turn never rebelled and the Leviathans complied probably, in order to seek the solution. The solution being the Crucible, making the Crucible a Reaper and Leviathan creation. Nor has the organic races tampered with it because they have been trapped within the Cycle.

This would:

1.Make way more sense.
2.Would not be too overly complicated to the point where nobody could've actually figured it out without being completely paranoid and irrational at first.
3.Fits the evidence completely.

I mean all that stuff about time travel, and the Reapers being doomed no matter what because all the options are booby trapped... all of this is just going too far out from where everything points. It also kills any real Meta. The player is supposed to be able to lose. As well, Shepard(and the Player) is supposed to be the reason the Reapers lose, not some other people who tampered with the device.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by demersel on Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:27 pm

A - you don't get it. Like at all.

B - The player is able to lose. By picking refuse.
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by dorktainian on Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:58 pm

ok while we're on wild speculations

what if.....

1. The reapers were created by humanity in the future to gather together alien DNA and store it - like some huge cosmic noahs ark shit?

2. What if Harbinger IS SHEPARD? He knows what hurts shepard because he IS SHEPARD!!!

3. What if the reapers are some galactic protection agency - every 50,000 years they show up and kill a few species to stop the real bad guys coming in and wiping everything out?

4. What if religion is the very reason the reapers were created in the first place?

God creates man. Man creates Technology. Man destroys God. Man becomes god. repeat as many times as you want.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by demersel on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:44 pm

Dork, that is almost exactly what SwobyJ and I think is going on. +/- some minor detail.
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:17 am

dork wrote:ok while we're on wild speculations

what if.....

1. The reapers were created by humanity in the future to gather together alien DNA and store it - like some huge cosmic noahs ark shit? (Close but not what I think. There's a purpose for the Reapers, just as symbolically there is a twisted positive purpose for religion, if we're taking that approach.)

2. What if Harbinger IS SHEPARD? He knows what hurts shepard because he IS SHEPARD!!! (Yes. Except Harbinger takes some time to clue into it. So you may be right, but don't think anything entirely literally. He's not literally Shepard, but they may be connected, and the words Harbinger tells Shepard may be specifically meant to be for only Shepard, instead of our assumption that they're more about humanity/organics in general.) "We are the beginning, you will be the end."

3. What if the reapers are some galactic protection agency - every 50,000 years they show up and kill a few species to stop the real bad guys (Leviathans) coming in and wiping everything out? (Not exactly - I think the Leviathans have always had their Harvest Cycle of sorts)

4. What if religion is the very reason the reapers were created in the first place?

God creates man. Man creates Technology. Man destroys God. Man becomes god. repeat as many times as you want. (Yes. A message that relates to humanism)

That's exactly it though, more or less. Except the #4 is more symbolic, unless you count the Leviathans' wish to be worshiped, as well as served.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:23 am

demersel wrote:A - you don't get it. Like at all.

B - The player is able to lose. By picking refuse.
Which is completely jacked up, Synthesis needs to be the worst option... not Refuse. This is not my opinion, it's fact.

Also, this idea you guys have is just... just terrible. No wonder Rif treats you the way he does Dem, because he's right. But this is my opinion, no need to go spreading it around.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:42 am

Also in regards to this: "One can be religious, or spiritual, but to impose that on others - even symbolically/subconsciously - is the 'enemy' here."

You're right, but the majority of Religions are not like this, and even more so I've never really met a single person who believed in a god and said that if the god was evil, that they'd oppose them. Maybe I've heard like 1 religious person say they would. Everyone else tries to avoid the question through cop outs, such as God is not evil, etc.

And of course one of the major things about Religion, is it usually downplays mankind. Like we are inherently evil, which in turn is what you are saying is happening.... mankind is the evil god. It's a load of crap, not that it isn't possible but it's always the same shtick. Humanity is not good enough, everything is their fault, yada yada. Boring, and not artistic at all.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:25 am

IronicParticle wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:Reapers violate the laws of physics?
Yes, it is specifically stated that their technology violates the known laws of physics and EDI confirms it and theorizes on how it's possible and that they might be inter-dimensional. So it's kind of official.
So are Leviathans gods too?

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:33 am

Ignoring the anti-religion vide spewing from this thread, they have a word for that. It's called devils.

Devil: a subordinate evil spirit at enmity with God, and having power to afflict humans both with bodily disease and with spiritual corruption.

Sound familiar?

Even in the game, the Reapers are called devils

"My kind stopped believing in devils. We changed our minds when the Reapers invaded." - Javik
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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:47 am

^That.

The Reapers are the machine devils, as the Beings of Light put, if anything inter-dimensional.

The Reapers like to pretend they're gods. Sovereign says they had no beginning. But that's obviously not true, because the Leviathans made them.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:05 am

Drewton wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:Reapers violate the laws of physics?
Yes, it is specifically stated that their technology violates the known laws of physics and EDI confirms it and theorizes on how it's possible and that they might be inter-dimensional. So it's kind of official.
So are Leviathans gods too?
Depends, I'm pretty sure the Reapers were made for the very fact that they'd be well beyond the Leviathans or any organic race for that matter. They are true AIs built from millions of minds each, AIs already have superior processing, etc. They are already by default as smart as super(more like Omega lol) computers on their own, especially Harbinger. If EDI can scan the entirety of Human history to see if we loved in a matter of seconds, think how much the Reapers have learned. They've went through multiple singularities.

So I actually don't think so. However it's probable they created Harbinger with the intent of becoming gods. This is seen in the fact that they feel races need Synthetics to overcome limitations. Likely laws of physics limitations that only a vast intelligence(hence the intelligence they created, and why Harbinger being that intelligence makes even more sense considering how vast his intellect has to be) could overcome, if it was even possible to begin with.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:17 am

Selim Bradley wrote:Ignoring the anti-religion vide spewing from this thread, they have a word for that. It's called devils.

Devil: a subordinate evil spirit at enmity with God, and having power to afflict humans both with bodily disease and with spiritual corruption.

Sound familiar?

Even in the game, the Reapers are called devils

"My kind stopped believing in devils. We changed our minds when the Reapers invaded." - Javik

Yes!

There's multiple angles to take on this, and I think that's intentional. Bioware does NOT want to start an anti-religious-people tirade with their narrative, but simply use their knowledge for a good story.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:17 am

So in other gods, they are like gods but they are not actually gods? Non-gods cannot create gods. How does something non-inter-dimensional even create something inter-dimensional, let alone gods?

It's debatable whether or not they created Harbinger.

Like Saren said, all advanced technology seems to be beyond our comprehension.

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Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:21 am

Selim Bradley wrote:Ignoring the anti-religion vide spewing from this thread, they have a word for that. It's called devils.

Devil: a subordinate evil spirit at enmity with God, and having power to afflict humans both with bodily disease and with spiritual corruption.

Sound familiar?

Even in the game, the Reapers are called devils

"My kind stopped believing in devils. We changed our minds when the Reapers invaded." - Javik
Don't come here if you are going to ignore it, it's the name of the title. Evil gods, there isn't much in the way of that, that isn't Anti-Religious.

All you are pointing out is that I am right, that there is an Anti-Religious message. The Reapers are real gods if you define a god as a creator of the universe/universes or/and life. But Javik, acknowledges that the Reapers are evil. The reason it's Anti-Religion, is because following your logic the god of Christianity is a devil, the god of Islam is a devil. The god of Judaism is a devil. etc, etc. The followers of these gods argue many things that make this so, like god being above morality... god being able to justify unjustifiable thing for no reason at all, etc, in order to address the moral issues with their gods. Basically, the gods of the religions are immoral(factually so), and thus devils according to Javik and everyone else.

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