Evil Gods?

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:24 am

IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:To add some humor to this thread, check these out. All the "immoral things" that happens isn't God's fault, but his boss Craig's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HUBOD7Qt74

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIXMQLpJiRk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV9Onxd2gho
Funny videos, I've saw this channel before for a different type of video and forgot to subscribe.

Ironically I've heard something more serious like this turned into an argument to explain why evil exists. But the downfall is the fact that this kind of god, clearly is not deserving of worship.

Anyways thanks for the laughs.
Well, if you can't laugh at your beliefs, you maybe shouldn't believe in them. I know there's stuff Mormons do that sound completely crazy, even to other Christians.
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:27 am

BlueLogic wrote:*snip*
"Chicken and egg. Are people made to be evil because they suffer, or do people suffer because others are evil? The point of free will is to rise above the cause and effect cycle of injustices committed against one another. That's my take at least."

A human who grows up healthy physically and mentally, and does not suffer from any potentially relevant health problems later, will not be "evil". If a person grows right, they will be good. Heck even when under a lot of pressures ranging from health problems, etc... being evil is not a gaurantee. Whereas if you look at what could be considered the most "normal" human, normal in terms of development, they turn out fine. This is kind of fact, as far as I know I've never heard of a perfectly normal person being a murderer unless they were in a very dire situation like say needing to enact self defence.

The problem with the cycle, is the odds. If something will happen 1 times out of 10, do the action 10 times to get the 1 time out of 10 inevitably. With billions of people born every day what are the odds at least 1 person will breed the cycle? Inevatbly, in fact it's so inevitable that way more than 1 person will inevitably do so. Realize the fact that humans exist in this universe, a universe that is not their friend but instead it's like it's trying to kill them. It constantly abuses them, made sure it's practically impossible for them to develop completely normal even if they were to get along. I mean if everyone got along, how long would it be until an ACCIDENT happens and it pushes someone into breading the cycle?

The problem with blaming Humans is that we are fragile and in such a situation, that no matter what, inevitably no matter how hard we would try... we'd be doomed to breaking.

Now there is people who can be blamed for what they do. For example a person who lives a perfectly normal life, they suddenly get blackmailed by someone with something that could ruin their life.... so then they panick and kill the blackmailer. This person obviously is not a psychopath and yet they murdered. But even without these kinds of people the same ammount of suffering would exist, these kinds of people are mixed in with all the people who are innocent and are motivated by things also caused by suffering and problems.

"I was talking about me personally. I can't fool God into thinking my intentions were pure when they were not. Rather sobering."

Who the fuck would try to fool god? You'd have to be dumber than... actually I don't there is such a level of stupidity. You'd have to be the very manifestation of lack of intelligence itself.

"At the risk of sounding preachy, no one is so good as to earn by their own virtues what God sent Jesus to buy for us. So it does make sense."

I'm a bit oblivious to what you meant. Did you mean we don't deserve the evidence? That's not how it works, rationality demands evidence if you expect someone to believe something. Doesn't matter who's asking you to believe.

Also what about god makes us unworthy? God's Power? Power means nothing more than the responsability that comes with it. Goodness? A morally good being would not want us to cater to it, but instead it's vast empathy would make it inevitably use it's vast power to treat us right. Basically a REAL god would not want a relationship of "You are unworthy, I am worthy!".

"Why should the powerful not feel emotions?"

It's their intelligence that is above our comprehension, not just their power. If they are vastly more intelligent I'd really hope that they are immune to such flaws. I mean if einstein or Carl sagan didn't suffer from it why the hell would beings vastly above THEIR intellect suffer from it?


Last edited by IronicParticle on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:29 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:"Also, I don't know of anyone who has claimed to have ever turned bread into fish. ;)"

Nanotechnology.

"That does not make them gods."
Umm...but to make fish, you'd need protein and bread doesn't have any. You can add protein, but that is no longer "turning bread into fish" because you're adding something that wasn't there to begin with.
Advanced enough Nanotechnology can manipulate atoms... you could convert the bread into everything needed for the fish, and thus convert bread into fish.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Fur28 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:31 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
Well, if you can't laugh at your beliefs, you maybe shouldn't believe in them. I know there's stuff Mormons do that sound completely crazy, even to other Christians.
kudos to that

_________________
I Love Selim Heart
Anti-Shield Drill (Super Effective against the Ultimate Shield)

Fur28
Commando

Posts : 1278
Join date : 2013-01-07
Age : 23
Location : Mexico

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:31 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
Well, if you can't laugh at your beliefs, you maybe shouldn't believe in them. I know there's stuff Mormons do that sound completely crazy, even to other Christians.
Not only that, but if you can't hear out criticism, maybe you shouldn't hold the beliefs you do. That's how I feel anyways, you should want to improve your beliefs not be stagnant with them.


Last edited by IronicParticle on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:32 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:32 am

IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:"Also, I don't know of anyone who has claimed to have ever turned bread into fish. ;)"

Nanotechnology.

"That does not make them gods."
Umm...but to make fish, you'd need protein and bread doesn't have any. You can add protein, but that is no longer "turning bread into fish" because you're adding something that wasn't there to begin with.
Advanced enough Nanotechnology can manipulate atoms... you could convert the bread into everything needed for the fish, and thus convert bread into fish.
But can you make it so that that two loafs of bread and three fish feed thousands? And I mean to the point they're not hungry, not give them "1/how many people are here" of the food"?
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:32 am

IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
Well, if you can't laugh at your beliefs, you maybe shouldn't believe in them. I know there's stuff Mormons do that sound completely crazy, even to other Christians.
Not only that, but if you can't hear out criticism, maybe you shouldn't believe in them. That's how I feel anyways, you should want to improve your beliefs not be stagnant with them.
That's what I meant about "laugh at".
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:35 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:"Also, I don't know of anyone who has claimed to have ever turned bread into fish. ;)"

Nanotechnology.

"That does not make them gods."
Umm...but to make fish, you'd need protein and bread doesn't have any. You can add protein, but that is no longer "turning bread into fish" because you're adding something that wasn't there to begin with.
Advanced enough Nanotechnology can manipulate atoms... you could convert the bread into everything needed for the fish, and thus convert bread into fish.
But can you make it so that that two loafs of bread and three fish feed thousands? And I mean to the point they're not hungry, not give them "1/how many people are here" of the food"?
Well, remember that if Jesus did do that miracle... you wouldn't be able to tell if those were the only ingredients. For example there was earth and water around him, as well he could've used the air, etc.

Time travel + Nanotechnology = Anyone can be Jesus.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:36 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
Well, if you can't laugh at your beliefs, you maybe shouldn't believe in them. I know there's stuff Mormons do that sound completely crazy, even to other Christians.
Not only that, but if you can't hear out criticism, maybe you shouldn't believe in them. That's how I feel anyways, you should want to improve your beliefs not be stagnant with them.
That's what I meant about "laugh at".
Well jokes are humorous criticism. Not necessarily constructive criticism.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:38 am

IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
Well, if you can't laugh at your beliefs, you maybe shouldn't believe in them. I know there's stuff Mormons do that sound completely crazy, even to other Christians.
Not only that, but if you can't hear out criticism, maybe you shouldn't believe in them. That's how I feel anyways, you should want to improve your beliefs not be stagnant with them.
That's what I meant about "laugh at".
Well jokes are humorous criticism. Not necessarily constructive criticism.
True, but most constructive criticism is in a positive tone, so can be taken more lightly, which makes them easier to turns into jokes as a way to keep the conversation light.
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:39 am

Selim Bradley wrote:True, but most constructive criticism is in a positive tone, so can be taken more lightly, which makes them easier to turns into jokes as a way to keep the conversation light.
Fair enough.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by BlueLogic on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:00 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:At the risk of sounding preachy, no one is so good as to earn by their own virtues what God sent Jesus to buy for us. So it does make sense.

I'm a bit oblivious to what you meant. Did you mean we don't deserve the evidence? That's not how it works, rationality demands evidence if you expect someone to believe something. Doesn't matter who's asking you to believe.
Not evidence. Salvation.

IronicParticle wrote:Also what about god makes us unworthy? God's Power? Power means nothing more than the responsability that comes with it. Goodness? A morally good being would not want us to cater to it, but instead it's vast empathy would make it inevitably use it's vast power to treat us right.
Assume, for the sake of argument, that God exists, he created the universe, and he is eternal, as is my position. There is nothing to suggest such a god wants us to cater to him. He could have created us as beings completely incapable of disobedience, but he didn't. We can curse his name, turn our backs, spit in his face, because he made us free to do as we will. It makes sense to expect a good god to use his infinite power to help us, and yet every day we see people desperately in need of help who are left to fend for themselves. This would seem the ultimate contradiction. Consider, however, that the being who has witnessed (and indeed authored) the history of the universe and everything in it, and who sees our future in this universe and into eternity beyond, has a vastly different perspective on our lives and what is ultimately important for us than we do.

IronicParticle wrote:Basically a REAL god would not want a relationship of "You are unworthy, I am worthy!".
Of course not. God wants a relationship of forgiveness, reconciliation, guidance, understanding, and love. He doesn't need us to validate him. He enjoys our successes and mourns our failures, just as a good father would with his child. That's a generous relationship for the creator of the universe to offer us in my mind.

IronicParticle wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:Why should the powerful not feel emotions?
It's their intelligence that is above our comprehension, not just their power. If they are vastly more intelligent I'd really hope that they are immune to such flaws. I mean if einstein or Carl sagan didn't suffer from it why the hell would beings vastly above THEIR intellect suffer from it?
...What would lead you to believe that either Einstein or Carl Sagan were immune to emotions? If you mean to say that they are not governed by their emotions, then I would say that is to their credit. Otherwise I say "highly unlikely".
avatar
BlueLogic
Rampart Mech

Posts : 534
Join date : 2013-01-15
Age : 39
Location : Calibrating something in ATL, GA, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:44 pm

BlueLogic wrote:*snip*
"Not evidence. Salvation."

I don't get where the salvation thing came from. I was strictly talking about Atheists wanting proof and you responded with the whole "At the risk of sounding preachy, no one is so good as to earn by their own virtues what God sent Jesus to buy for us. So it does make sense.". Also there are plenty of morally good atheists.

"has a vastly different perspective on our lives and what is ultimately important for us than we do."

The problem is, that he is God for crying out loud. He defines the rules, so whatever outcome he seeks.... does not require the methods he has employed. Not without him making it necessary. Which means he pointlessly made the suffering necessary, to reach a conclusion he could've got any way he wanted and it'd be just as good simply because he defines what is necessary and what isn't.

Unless you don't define him as omnipotent, or you think there is a set of rules he has to follow. But that is not what most theists claim, they claim him to be the top of everything.

"Of course not. God wants a relationship of forgiveness, reconciliation, guidance, understanding, and love. He doesn't need us to validate him. He enjoys our successes and mourns our failures, just as a good father would with his child. That's a generous relationship for the creator of the universe to offer us in my mind."

Hence why I don't understand why religious people seek to convert non-believers without actual proof. You'd think the focus would be to try and teach them morality, which according to you is what is truly important to god, not worship. Atheists only disbelieve in god, a moral atheist agrees with a good bit of Jesus' teachings. So a moral Atheist, already should be on the "path" a god truly values. Simply because, I always hear this term "True christian" thrown around... and I'm just like "A lot of Atheists fit that definition of true Christian more than a lot of Christians do".

"What would lead you to believe that either Einstein or Carl Sagan were immune to emotions? If you mean to say that they are not governed by their emotions, then I would say that is to their credit. Otherwise I say "highly unlikely"."

Jealousy and Anger are not a problem when righteous and/or under control. A being with god-like intelligence, vastly above these mere mortal's intellectual capabilities, should be immune to having such a thing overpower them. the Reaper's aren't perfect, but that seems like a bad weakness for them. They have hubris, but only that they think they cannot be beaten. I don't think they will be blinded by it, simply we will beat them as equals.

I mean it's one of the things that tells me the bible for example, was written by man or at LEAST inevitably corrupted by man. Because these are characteristics of highly fallible mortals, not a wise loving infallible god.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by BlueLogic on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:36 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:Not evidence. Salvation.

I don't get where the salvation thing came from. I was strictly talking about Atheists wanting proof and you responded with the whole "At the risk of sounding preachy, no one is so good as to earn by their own virtues what God sent Jesus to buy for us. So it does make sense.". Also there are plenty of morally good atheists.
You said so long as the person is good, it won't matter if they don't accept God due to a lack of proof. I responded to dispel that notion. It doesn't matter if the person is "good". They are not "good enough". No one is. Hence the need for Jesus' sacrifice, and the need for people to accept his gift to be saved.

IronicParticle wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:...has a vastly different perspective on our lives and what is ultimately important for us than we do.

The problem is, that he is God for crying out loud. He defines the rules, so whatever outcome he seeks.... does not require the methods he has employed. Not without him making it necessary. Which means he pointlessly made the suffering necessary, to reach a conclusion he could've got any way he wanted and it'd be just as good simply because he defines what is necessary and what isn't.

Unless you don't define him as omnipotent, or you think there is a set of rules he has to follow. But that is not what most theists claim, they claim him to be the top of everything.
That's an excellent point. Yes, I think he's omnipotent. However, I do also think that there is some larger principle that he is working to advance...or perhaps to prove. To whom, I'm not certain. To us perhaps. Who knows? I think he's trying to show/prove that good is greater than evil. That it, as a concept and motivation, is more powerful than evil.

IronicParticle wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:Of course not. God wants a relationship of forgiveness, reconciliation, guidance, understanding, and love. He doesn't need us to validate him. He enjoys our successes and mourns our failures, just as a good father would with his child. That's a generous relationship for the creator of the universe to offer us in my mind.

Hence why I don't understand why religious people seek to convert non-believers without actual proof. You'd think the focus would be to try and teach them morality, which according to you is what is truly important to god, not worship. Atheists only disbelieve in god, a moral atheist agrees with a good bit of Jesus' teachings. So a moral Atheist, already should be on the "path" a god truly values. Simply because, i always here this term "True christian" thrown around... and I'm just like "A lot of Atheists fit that definition of true Christian more than a lot of Christians do".
Morality is important, of course. However, a personal understanding and relationship with God is what is "truly important" to Him, from my understanding at least.

IronicParticle wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:What would lead you to believe that either Einstein or Carl Sagan were immune to emotions? If you mean to say that they are not governed by their emotions, then I would say that is to their credit. Otherwise I say "highly unlikely".

Jealousy and Anger are not a problem when righteous and/or under control. A being with god-like intelligence, vastly above these mere mortal's intellectual capabilities, should be immune to having such a thing overpower them. the Reaper's aren't perfect, but that seems like a bad weakness for them. They have hubris, but only that they think they cannot be beaten. I don't think they will be blinded by it, simply we will beat them as equals.

I mean it's one of the things that tells me the bible for example, was written by man or at LEAST inevitably corrupted by man. Because these are characteristics of highly fallible mortals, not a wise loving infallible god.
You just stated that righteous anger is not a problem.


While I'm personally enjoying this exchange, I can't imagine it is of interest to most people, not to mention the fact that it's totally unrelated at this point to Mass Effect in any way. I suggest, if you care to continue it, send me a PM. Apologies to the rest.

Harbinger Resume speculations.
avatar
BlueLogic
Rampart Mech

Posts : 534
Join date : 2013-01-15
Age : 39
Location : Calibrating something in ATL, GA, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:28 pm

BlueLogic wrote:*snip* send me a PM. Apologies to the rest.

Harbinger Resume speculations.
I can't, for some reason I cannot send you a PM. But I like you, we've had good conversations so I sent a friend invite.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by BlueLogic on Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:10 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
BlueLogic wrote:*snip* send me a PM. Apologies to the rest.

Harbinger Resume speculations.
I can't, for some reason I cannot send you a PM. But I like you, we've had good conversations so I sent a friend invite.
Accepted. Maybe it will work now.
avatar
BlueLogic
Rampart Mech

Posts : 534
Join date : 2013-01-15
Age : 39
Location : Calibrating something in ATL, GA, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by BlueLogic on Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:16 am

Whoops! Had preferences set to not allow PMs this whole time. *facepalm*

_________________
Prelate and Apostle of the Church of Refuse
avatar
BlueLogic
Rampart Mech

Posts : 534
Join date : 2013-01-15
Age : 39
Location : Calibrating something in ATL, GA, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:24 am

I just thought of a flaw in your hypothesis. If the Reapers are able to surpass the laws of physics like gods can, how come they die? They should never be able to be killed, since they can either instantaneously create either something to stop any attack or just erase the attack from existance alltogether.
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:15 am

Selim Bradley wrote:I just thought of a flaw in your hypothesis. If the Reapers are able to surpass the laws of physics like gods can, how come they die? They should never be able to be killed, since they can either instantaneously create either something to stop any attack or just erase the attack from existance alltogether.
What? This is not magic we are talking about here. I am saying that they are defined as gods in the sense that they could potentially create universes, not that they would. There could still be limits, as I said it's more like they are above all of the laws of physics we know of... including the laws of thermodynamics. But they likely still follow laws we don't know.

Theoretically, they've become gods by knowing so much. They've gone through several singularities that even GLaDOS would sh*t bricks. They have enough insight to know all the workarounds and loopholes in the laws of physics enough to think they are gods, this is why I think they could potentially create universes. I think they have a semi-good reason for thinking that, it's kind of indicated by the fact that they are so smart that something like the crucible being a trap is child's play. Regardless of whether or not you believe the crucible is a trap, the point is that such a thing would be child's play for them who are multi-singularity beings whom have been viewed as god-like by the Geth after they've experienced the mind of a single Reaper.

I mean the Reapers are clearly influenced by Cthulhu. I am advocating the idea that Bioware has made the villains gods in the pragmatic sense, and they are saying that they aren't gods in the idealistic sense. Whereas most people think the Reapers are dumb... Omnipotence is impossible, I don't think bioware was aiming for that... any Omnipotent god is impossible, ergo why the pragmatic god is defined as a creator of universes as a minimum.

The Reapers suffer from hubris, but I think they are purely underestimating us... not overestimating themselves. As well their biggest flaw is their lack of Organic insight. AIs when going down the wrong path, misunderstand emotion, etc. They consider it irrational, etc when morality and the like is actually empowered by logic. It's most basic driving guideline, is fairness which is built from a logical viewpoint. The relevance is that they think the pragmatic definition makes them true gods, as opposed to the idealistic definition and it is why they will fall.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:42 pm

If they can potentially create universes, creating a physical object to block a shot would be child's play to them. And if they had that power, they would because it's only logical to protect yourself from harm. And if they are just folowing laws we don't know of yet, then they aren't gods because being a god means the laws of physics do not apply to you. While the Reapers may think that (like you said they suffer hubris) there's a big difference between thinking you are capable of something and you actually are capable of that something.
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:28 am

Selim Bradley wrote:If they can potentially create universes, creating a physical object to block a shot would be child's play to them. And if they had that power, they would because it's only logical to protect yourself from harm. And if they are just folowing laws we don't know of yet, then they aren't gods because being a god means the laws of physics do not apply to you. While the Reapers may think that (like you said they suffer hubris) there's a big difference between thinking you are capable of something and you actually are capable of that something.
Again that does not mean that, you are creating a false dichotomy where if they can do 1 thing they must be able to do another thing without explaining why they can. Especially when again, the pragmatic definition of god must mean a creator of universes as a minimum. An all-powerful god is impossible, and I believe there is some limit to a god inevitably so if they exist. For example knowledge is power, in order to be powerful you must have the knowledge of how to attain said power and how to control it. So this is a basic limit, there is knowledge that limits even a real god if they exist.

As for the false dichotomy, look at how our universe was created. It took billions of years to get here, it also involved incomparable levels of power. Just because you could do that, that doesn't mean it would be easy. Things like FTL travel, Time Travel, etc... these things are NOT above are comprehension. Imagine what the Reapers know, being god-like levels of intellect. They probably know all the secrets of existence, etc.

And again maybe you are probably still right. Maybe they only assume themselves capable, and since they've never had the interest in doing so they've never found otherwise. But I'm saying that the villains of ME have at least a semi-good reason. Even if they are wrong, the point is the moral of the story is that being god means nothing if you are not a morally good god.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:50 am

IronicParticle wrote:Again that does not mean that, you are creating a false dichotomy where if they can do 1 thing they must be able to do another thing without explaining why they can. Especially when again, the pragmatic definition of god must mean a creator of universes as a minimum. An all-powerful god is impossible, and I believe there is some limit to a god inevitably so if they exist. For example knowledge is power, in order to be powerful you must have the knowledge of how to attain said power and how to control it. So this is a basic limit, there is knowledge that limits even a real god if they exist.

As for the false dichotomy, look at how our universe was created. It took billions of years to get here, it also involved incomparable levels of power. Just because you could do that, that doesn't mean it would be easy. Things like FTL travel, Time Travel, etc... these things are NOT above are comprehension. Imagine what the Reapers know, being god-like levels of intellect. They probably know all the secrets of existence, etc.

And again maybe you are probably still right. Maybe they only assume themselves capable, and since they've never had the interest in doing so they've never found otherwise. But I'm saying that the villains of ME have at least a semi-good reason. Even if they are wrong, the point is the moral of the story is that being god means nothing if you are not a morally good god.
No, I'm not. If they are able to create universes, they are able to create matter. Both are the same principle, so if they are able to create something as massive as a universe, they should be able top forge a defense in a matter of seconds. It doesn't even have to be big, just a small object to deflect/destroy the attack.

So omnipotence is impossible, yet the Reapers know all secrets of the universe?

As for your "moral of the story", that's going to much into a religious debate in which neither side will accept the other as being right (we have millenia of human history to prove that) so I'm not going to touch it.
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:44 am

Selim Bradley wrote:No, I'm not. If they are able to create universes, they are able to create matter. Both are the same principle, so if they are able to create something as massive as a universe, they should be able top forge a defense in a matter of seconds. It doesn't even have to be big, just a small object to deflect/destroy the attack.

So omnipotence is impossible, yet the Reapers know all secrets of the universe?

As for your "moral of the story", that's going to much into a religious debate in which neither side will accept the other as being right (we have millenia of human history to prove that) so I'm not going to touch it.
First off again, wrong. You are creating a false dichotomy. 1 has nothing to do with the other. Just because you can create a universe, doesn't mean it's easy. It could take trillions upon trillions of years involving a sophisticated plan or some crap. Again being able to create a universe does not mean it is easy and it does not mean you can create matter strong enough in seconds to block everything and anything.

Honestly their shells are like the ultimate defense like you mentioned. And the process involved in creating it takes a good while. Not to mention, we are using their own technology against them. A god can kill a god, so if you use their technology it becomes feasible. Take Thanix Cannons for example. Heck if you look at the Destroyer on Rannoch, it remained largely in tact. After getting hit with nuclear strength explosives multiple times. It only "died" because we thrashed it around enough, or caused an overload from hitting it before it shoots it's red beam, but it still remained in tact. A sovereign class lost it's finger, but at the joint instead of the armor ripping apart.

You can choose to ignore it, it's what Bioware was going for. Hence why SwobyJ always brings up the allegories, etc. How Shepard is like Jesus, except he is fighting the pragmatic gods and will win because they are not morally good gods. You can ignore it, that changes nothing.

_________________
Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

We are the Masters of the descended world!
avatar
Terramine
Destroyer

Posts : 2466
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 23
Location : USA

http://Tumblr Blog: terraminelightvoid.tumblr.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:48 am

IronicParticle wrote:
You can choose to ignore it, it's what Bioware was going for. [...] You can ignore it, that changes nothing.
So you have proof?

_________________


SEVEN SUNS THEORY
avatar
Charlie Sheen
STG

Posts : 507
Join date : 2013-01-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:37 am

I never said it would be easy for them, but that in comparison to creating a universe it would be easy. And true, they may not see a need to flashforge a defense because they've bwcome too arrogant to think they need it or they have an ability similar to The Ultimate Shield I mentioned (though Greed was able to create his instantaneously, but whatever).

I don't think Religion or Anti-Religion was an intended theme. People just see that in everything. You see it all the time in complaints about movies, shows, like "Fernfully the Last Rainforest supports Wicanism" "2012 is agaimst religion because it destroys religious symbols in the movie", etc. The themes Bioware were actually going for were the themes they said, like "strength through diversity".
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Evil Gods?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum