Refuse in the place of Destroy

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by dorktainian on Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:34 am

evolution is overrated.

lets go into refusal mode...

1. Why would you want to control the reapers? Sounds good in principal... anybody pissed you off and you can get the reapers to sic em. you get to shape the galaxy as you want... or do you? yeah connect those two electrodes and vapourise yourself... we promise you will control the reapers.... bullshit.
2. Synthesis (shudders....) the final evolution. What a load of bollox. Throw myself into the beam therefore killing myself... and this will end the war? just fuck off bioware.

oh wait... there is no war.. there is only the harvest..

3. Destroy. Now here's something i can get behind. the reapers gave me a win button (or tube). I have to shoot the tube. But synthetics will die and starjar says the "chaos will return". Yeah but it will return on our terms. We will be ready for it next time and kick it's ass.. But wait a moment.. Starjar says we are chaos.. so does that mean we will die?

Is he talking about the harvest of life?

Now dont get me wrong.... I'm in the shoot first corner. BUT when you analyse what starjar says can you take anything he says at all as being legit? He's a lying little twat whose only concern is self preservation. He cannot choose (being a non physical entity) so has to get someone else to do his dirty work.



what a complete and utter twat. fucking reapers..... kill em all.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Maximus on Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:03 pm

pasza89 wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:
Synthesis is clearly Saren.

This is the last thing I'd expect to see on that forum. I wish there was a way to filter out your posts. You are one of the reasons a lot of people consider IT surreal.

You are clearly clueless.

You are clearly derpy...duck!
Here's a new Profile Pic for ya, pal! ;>

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by symbowles on Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:53 pm

pasza89 wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:
Synthesis is clearly Saren.

This is the last thing I'd expect to see on that forum. I wish there was a way to filter out your posts. You are one of the reasons a lot of people consider IT surreal.

You are clearly clueless.


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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:46 am

Wow ok I forgot how much conversation was really going on in here, I thought nobody cared for some raisin. Well then again, with the attitude I've gotten in the past... Anywho I might actually think some things I said were plain stupid or whatever.

Like the hope babble and whatnot. I mean someone made a great point with Refuse being the idealistic correct choice, but it's also more than that and I focused too much on the idealism imo.

So yeah anyways I'm gonna get on this.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:56 am

CSSteele wrote:Terra, the problem with that is simply the fact that Refuse wasn't an original option. We had to wait months for the EC to give us the option to 'win'. Add in that the only option to give the 'Shepard lives' breath scene is max assets Destroy.

Other than that, I do lean towards Refuse being the 'correct' choice, but without having a counter-point for the 2 problems I just listed, ones that fit with everything, I can't jump behind it 100%
1.Who said they ever planned for anyone to actually win? At least, let me ask you something... hasn't it always been mentioned that people are gonna be pissed cause they chose control and synthesis and that those are WRONG choices? Well my thing is... what if all 3 choices were wrong? It has yet been explained to me as to why that's off the table, why they can't do that. There's nothing from a writing perspective or a marketing one that says that. If anything there's way more saying they CANT make Destroy the winning option because it alienates the fan base. But if everybody got it wrong, guess what? You're all in the same boat.

And assuming anyone CAN win, it's the people who actually figured shit out and payed attention right? Well that honestly should be a very small group of people. Even among ITers... just because you figured out there is a test, doesn't mean you're gonna pass.

2.I'm not sure how compelling that is, in terms of Destroy being right. The breath scene was a pointless cliffhanger from a first glance, but it's inevitably there to provoke questions. And that's all it needs to be, is there to make you think and ask questions. But the real question is, how much credit does this REALLY give Destroy? Also BTW, it would add extra meta points if it was meant to mislead the player.


Last edited by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by TurianRebel212 on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:00 am

@Terrramine

So you think the Reapers can be beaten conventionally????

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:10 am

TurianRebel212 wrote:@Terrramine

So you think the Reapers can be beaten conventionally????
Hm, I haven't done much in the way of looking into this. But from listening to arguments from others, it doesn't seem like it.

However Refuse isn't a conventional ending... no where is it indicated as such. People only think it does because... they're looking at it all wrong, even among ITers which is sad but expected to see. They're all making a choice, based on what they're told in perspective of the narrative being painted... which im sorry but that isnt how you're supposed to see it.

You're NOT supposed to look at them as if they literally happen and then form a decision, or at least not to the degree everyone seems to think. The premise and conclusion of the choices are irrelevant beyond the question of "is this shepard". Thinking otherwise, would require you to apply the same to Control and Synthesis. You cant accept the premise and conclusion of Destroy, but then instantly reject the premise and conclusion of Control and Synthesis. And honestly, as far as premise and conclusion go? Synthesis is the BEST option. It's the PERFECT choice.

But THATS THE POINT. No ITer actually accepts the premise and conclusion, they know that it's the LEAST correct choice in actuallity. Because the premise and conclusion, are Reaper ideas being suggested. This applies to Destroy and Refuse. And for refuse, it's the REAPER'S idea that Refuse kills everybody and shit.

I'll continue in the next post because I want to focus on this next part.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:24 am

cru·ci·ble
ˈkro͞osəbəl/
noun
noun: crucible; plural noun: crucibles

       a place or occasion of severe test or trial.
       "the crucible of combat"


-The ending is a test. Not just the location, but everything currently going on. The test is to see if you wake up and realize something's not right. From there, you step back and look OUTSIDE the narrative and look at whats what rather than just blindly accepting what you're being told is what's what. The funny thing is following this, Destroyers clearly haven't FULLY awoken. Because they are to some degree accepting what they're being told. Refuse is undeniably, the option where Shepard refuses everything altogether.

-Whats more is people really need to pay attention, to what Shepard is saying VS the Catalyst in Refuse. Shepard IS the one who proposes refuse. But he ISN'T the one who proposes everyone will die and the cycle will continue, that actually is proposed by Starbrat. And Shepard refuses that idea too. In Destroy, the ENTIRE IDEA. Was proposed by Starbrat and Shepard says "ok". What people define as Shepard refusing the catalyst in Destroy, isn't actually refusal. Pay attention. Shepard merely justifies his choice OVER the other 2. He doesn't actually refuse everything the Catalyst says, JUST what he says about the other 2 options.

-Lastly, calling back to the beginning of this message... the definition of Crucible is a test or trial right? Well think about it. People keep mentioning that the "winning" ending is in the EC. But get this right... when you take a test, you don't get told the right option UNTIL AFTER YOU ALREADY TOOK THE TEST. You don't get graded, you don't get shown the correct answer, until AFTER YOU TOOK THE TEST.

And I am kinda blowing my own mind with this it's so fucking obvious. What better way to pull something like this off? Than to give everyone the test, let them try to figure it out and then choose. And then as the VAST VAST VAAAAAAST  majority loses, if not everyone, they show you the RIGHT ANSWER and yeah. And it's not necessarily holding hands either, in a world where most gamers don't THINK... it's perfect. Because it tells them they answered wrong, but doesn't condemn them as hopeless as it guides them down the right path.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by TurianRebel212 on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:29 am

Yean, but synthesis and control are ideas brought up before, most notbably by Indoctrinated antagonists of the games. Saren and TIM.

Saren wanted synthesis, again I linked a video in this thread showing that explicitly and using evidence and facts that are within the LORE OF THE SERIES, that Saren and the catalysts speeches are nearly identical.

And TIM and the indoctrinated protheans that sabotaged the Prothean Crucible wanted......

Control.

Furthermore, it is not just IN Game but also out of the games perspective. As in the Arca Monoloth event and Paul Grayson.

Both of those events show clearly and utterly that CONTROL is a folly and Reaper idea.

Desolas Arterius wanted the Arca Monolith to CONTROL and "Ascend" the turain and he used his Meta Turians to demonstrate that. But..... They were eventually turned against him....


"That in which you cannot control"......


TIM was interested in Paul Grayson because Grayson appeared to be able to CONTROL his Reaper indoctrination and use it to amplify is biotic potential, but......... Nope.


Saren wanted to form a UNION OF MAN AND MACHINE.  An Alliance with the Reapers. The strenths of both, the weaknesses of either. The pinnacle of evolution.......


"Synthesis is the final stage of evolution"- Catalyst.


Yeah.


People that think Synthesis is "Perfect" and the "best" "path".... Are already indoctrinated, lol.


And that.... Is META at it's finest.

-You give your own players the toolset and ability to kill their Shepard off and EVERYONE and EVERYTHING they've come to know and love about Mass Effect. But they have to do it, they have to.... Choose. After all, this is MASS Effect and player agency dictates narrative..... Ding, ding!

Brilliant.


But.... BioWare gave you an out.

All you need is the will.

The will and knowledge to see through the manipulations and PASS THE CRUCIBLE.

Do you have the will???


The above was basically BioWare's theme with the ending of Mass Effect 3.


Do YOU have the will. As this is Mass Effect in which YOU are Shepard.  



Or not... And it's just a really, really poorly written and executed wannabe Deus Ex Machina ending with a Maccguffin (the Crucible) narrative devic and Mass Effect was just a Herculean Adventure about a BAMF Space Marine fighting derpy aliens, and BioWare wrote themselves into a corner and really fucked themselves when they ditched Drew K.


It's probably the above. Probably.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by TurianRebel212 on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:47 am

Refuse is a what is called as a proxy narrative device. It isn't factual but it serves a theme and point.


The theme and purpose of refuse is the very theme and purpose of the "Crucible".



It's a double negative.

It's put there for people who don't have the WILL to do WHAT EVERY SHEPARD AND EVERY ALLY, want to do.

Destroy the reapers.


And..... You die and all your friends as well.


But Bioware, because they're not completely heartless and depressive, show that picking refuse actually benefit the next cycle.....


Well..... WHO GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT THAT CYCLE!

I'm here for THIS cycle, the Shepard Cycle. I'm here to win this bitch.


**shoots tube, nukes Derpy Reapers, wakes up**

Quite simple really.


And Shepard is the Catalyst. Duh.


"An AGENT of CHANGE".


That is Shepard, through and through.

Shepard invokes MAJOR changes through the MEU. And ONLY Shepard does it.


The above, explains Mass Effect 2 narrative, TIM/Cerberus Lazarus Project, Leviathan Narrative and the ending of ME3 with IT.


This ENTIRE THING was about Shepard... The one with "superior code", the Vanquisher of Sovereign, Destroyer of the Collectors, Unifier. UNIFIER. Of the Galaxy.

This warrior, this... Anomaly.


This.....Shepard.



"Shepard, you don't understand you place in things"

“You escaped us before, Shepard, not again.”

“Shepard, I always survive.”

“You are arrogant, Shepard, you will learn.”





“You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.”







“And now you stand alone, Shepard.”




"I am the Catalyst this is my home".
"Perhaps I control the Reapers" LOL this one is just classic.
"So be it" Reaper Voice. In Refuse no less, lol.
"He couldn't have controlled us, we already controlled him" LOL.
"Synthesis is the final evolution of life" Um... yeah, okie dokie.





"The paths are open. You MUST choose"



Obvious is obvious.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:51 am

But the Saren = Synthesis and TIM = Control, is just proof towards my side of the argument.

-Synthesis appeals to Saren's nature. He believes that no matter how big the sacrifice is, it's worth it as long as you get the job done. I'm sure there is other layers to this.

-Control this is even more obvious. Everything about the Reaper proposed Control is the biggest wet dream of TIM. It promises vast advancements in tech for humanity, it promises vast POWER for humanity, it promises vast SECURITY for humanity.

So what I'm getting at here is Synthesis and Control AREN'T Reaper ideas. At least, not at their core. They're what TIM and Saren would choose for a reason, that reason being it's basically what they would do in some way or another... but it has premises and conclusions that the Reapers added to twist things. To accept the existence of the Reapers.

So in this format YES:
Synthesis = Saren
Control = Illusive Man
Destroy = Shepard

-But you have to think of it like this... Saren's TRUE option, is a more core idea. Not actually Synthesis itself.
In his Crucible, his option for Refuse was a refusal of the Reapers but something still akin to Synthesis. Basically Synthesis minus Reapers. Maybe "The galaxy will unite without the Reapers, Harbinger, and then we will win".

-TIM's true option is a more core idea. Not actually Control itself. In his Crucible, his option for Refuse was Control minus the Reapers. Something like "Humanity will advance beyond the Reapers, Harbinger, and then we will win"

-Shepard's true option is a more core idea. Not actually Destroy itself. In his Crucible, his option for Refuse was you guessed it Destroy minus the Reapers. Which we all know as "We will find a way to destroy the Reapers on our own terms, Harbinger, and then we will win"

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by TurianRebel212 on Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:09 am

Control is a core reaper idea and tenement. Hence... Um... Indoctrination and stuff.

Synthesis is what reapers do when they harvest. The Harvest IS synthesis.

It's "ascension" and turning people into reaper past to build more Reapers.


Control is a Reaper path.

As is Syntheis-really the main goal of the whole harvest.

Therefore it was painted as the "best" and "perfect" choice in the the Crucible that is the end of ME3.

Destroy is painted in a negavitve light by the catalyst, he tries to desuade Shepard from it by using pathos.

Refuse is put into the crucible and ending by BioWare (and it was added in EC.... It's not original) to yet again face slap and give hints to the player about what is going on.

See, many players didn't get it, so that's why BioWare added all that stuff like Refuse, more Catalyst chit chat, and Harbiner at the beam.

Refuse solidities IT. As it was always meant to.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:45 am

The idea of controlling the reapers specifically, is their idea but it's stuffed full of TIM's core goals and motives. Synthesis as a whole, combine synthetics and organics idea? Is a Reaper idea. But it is stuffed with Saren's core goals and motives.

The funny thing is. I just realized I was wrong about something. Destroy ISN'T Shepard's choice in the sequence. It's ANDERSON'S, THIS IS AN UNDENIABLE FACT, HE IS THE ONE SEEN SHOOTING IT. Didn't you ask yourself why Anderson is shown shooting it? Well it's undeniable what the purpose is. Because it is NECESSITATED TO BE THE SAME REASON TIM IS SHOWN CHOOSING CONTROL. And the SAME reason Saren would inevitably be shown choosing Synthesis.

Destroy is actually a core reaper idea. It's just stuffed with Anderson's goals and motives. All that other babble you said about seeing if the player will do the hard choice is just that, nonsensical babble sir. No offense. There is a much bigger painting being painted here. What you're saying is actually a really shitty test, not art at all.

It's more appropriate to say controlling something, uniting it, destroying it. These are core concepts that belong to nobody. However at the ending they've been twisted so as to necessitate the Reapers, making them "inevitable" in one way or another. In order to control them or unite with them, they must exist. Destroy is a little different. You must use their methods to do it. So they are necessitated for even Destroy. This is indoctrination, to accept the Reapers as inevitable. Once you accept that core idea, you are indoctrinated.

This is what's really going on:



But even more so:


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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:53 am

Actually that's it for the other 2 endings too. Synthesis and Control are twisted because you must use the Reaper's methods to do it. We've seen control is possible to some degree, Reaper minions were controlled. Though the means to achieve control of the Reapers, it seems so absurd it's like trying to conventionally destroy the Reapers. Same with Synthesis. However here it's being proposed through the Reaper's methods and that's how you get indoctrinated.

What I also find funny is that Destroy is as conventional as it gets. You can't beat the Reapers with massive thanix canons on shitloads of ships... but you can shoot 1 tiny wittle gun at this tube and you can destroy the Reapers. And also in that same description I just gave, Destroy is symbolic for conventionally beating the Reapers.

Control is controlling the Reapers by joining them.
Synthesis is uniting and saving everyone by joining the Reapers.
Destroy is destroying the Reapers by joining them.

You see no problem with this?

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:04 am

Control, Synthesis and Destroy are all the same at their cores. And this means that Bioware never lied, there is a Reapers win ending... A, B, C.

It also means the TRUE ending, the one that's behind the facade ISN'T a traditional ending and isn't ABC. There is only 1 true ending overall, to see through said facade. And the entire fanbase, ITer or not would never realize they lost. They also wouldn't realize that they were completely wrong and Bioware are geniuses.

Now we wait for the reveal.

Edit: However it's so funny how honest they really were, because you cant say how many endings there actually are. From 1 perspective, the one we commonly refer to as face value here... says there is 3. From the equivalent perspective WITH the extended cut there is 4. From the Synthesizer perspective there is only 1 right option(synthesis) and 3 wrong ones. From the Controller perspective there is a different set of only 1 right(control) and 3 wrong. From the Destroyer perspective there is ANOTHER entirely separate set of 1 right(destroy) and 3 wrong. Now there is also the face value Refuser, who has once again has a separate set of 1 right(Refuse) and 3 wrong.

Now of course, this is all about interpretations... and of course this could be applied to freaking Mario if you really wanted to. Because you could subjectively count a game over as an ending unto itself . However I think it's valid here in ME's case because perspective is actually clearly MEANT to be used here. Like Bioware intended for us to... hence "speculations for everyone".

Rif thinks there is nothing to the leaked script but actually here's the funny thing... not only does it seem like they set things up like an actual test. But this is true pre-ME3's release. Because a leak just magically happened, but if they planted the leaked script in the demo for us to find. Then it's all the more like a test, because what happens before a test? You STUDY a source for which the questions are based upon. And from the perspective I'm suggesting. There is technically 1 right option and 1 wrong. To join the Reapers or to go against them, just like in the leaked script. And the funny thing is the EC is going to stop being free, so basically they gave everyone a chance to correct their answers before the conclusion in ME4. Before the grades get dished out.


Last edited by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by TurianRebel212 on Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:30 am

I could get behind refuse if.... Shepard lived and there was an answer to the question.....

You know.... How do you defeat a Godlike entity????

But Shep didn't. Refuse,like I said, is proxy narrative device. Used to further explain the meaning and interpretation to ME3.


That interpretation is IT. Pure and simple.

The games, the lore, and the final hours of Mass Effect 3 face slap the audience with that idea.



Hence why indoctrination doest't have a codex entry until......

Mass Effect 2 and the derelict reaper....... And nothing of consequence happened there. No no, nothing.

See, it didn't exist.... Until..... FOR SHEPARD, it was too late.



"Eye of the hurricane huh"


That's the Rubicon event for Shepard.

This was all planned.

SHEPARD WAS ALWAYS MEANT TO UNIFY THE GALAXY AND BRING ALL FLEETS, MILITARY'S AND POWERS THAT BE TO ONE PLACE. ONE FINAL BATTLE. ONE FINAL......TOMB.


But.... BioWare does give you an out.

Hence the N7 breath/awake scene.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:46 am

No the breath scene is out of context and placed out of the narrative even along side the stargazer scene. It could be there to mislead you. It also could be to make you think.

Besides we all know the true outcome, in none of the endings does Shepard die. Synthesis doesn't actually kill him, at least not physically. It's total death of WHO HE IS. Control is death of WHAT he is. Destroy is partial death of who he is. Similarly, accepting synthesis is the idea that would LEAST kill Saren. A Control is the idea that would LEAST kill TIM.

Get this right, it leaves them as themselves JUST ENOUGH to seemingly seem the same but then they're really working for the Reapers. TIM seemed to be trying to control the reapers, genuinely. Right? But then turns out he was indoctrinated. Same for Saren.

Now here's where it gets extra mind blowy: It was said in the first game, that an agent is actually most useful as themselves as much as possible. In fact this is why Saren reasoned he was safe from them indoctrinating him in the first place, because he's more useful being as capable as possible.

The problem is, that the very moment you compromise with the Reapers you're already indoctrinated and it's only matter of time till your mind degrades. No matter how well together you are, that's why Saren was implanted with more and more tech. Same for TIM.

Now get this: If Shepard chooses Destroy, he will be indoctrinated. But this is the path that will require him to shoot himself like TIM and Saren. The funny thing is, that in a reverse psychology way, Destroy is the most favored option. Because synthesis will leave him a gibbering animal, and control will leave him very loopy. But Destroy will leave him capable yet indoctrinated.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:00 am

Here's my thing. The reveal was never meant to be in ME3. It either never was going to be revealed, or the reveal is ME4. And people criticize the idea that the ending to ME3 would be in the next game. But the truth is, the ending to ME3 still wouldn't be in ME4.

In a trilogy, the endings are all open until the very last one in the set. Bitching that the reveal isn't in ME3 is like bitching that ME2's ending wasn't in ME1 and ME3's ending isn't in ME2. The reveal wouldn't be ME3's ending even if it was placed in the game, the reveal would still be AFTER the ending. ME1 is going to school and ME2 is the studying, ME3 is the test and ME4 is the grade.

Anywho sorry for going off into a tangent. You will see Shepard alive, in ME4.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:03 am

And btw I feel like I should point out that Shepard DOES die in Destroy. We all know he didn't "survive" that blast. Only in Refuse does Shepard live inside his mind.

The breath scene just shows Shepard waking up. It's not shown in any other ending becuase it was only placed there to make you think. Shepard will wake from all the endings, refuse included. But guess what?

In Control, Synthesis and Destroy he will awaken dead inside, and that's a fact ;0

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by CSSteele on Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:58 am

Terramine wrote:The problem is, that the very moment you compromise with the Reapers you're already indoctrinated and it's only matter of time till your mind degrades. No matter how well together you are, that's why Saren was implanted with more and more tech. Same for TIM.

Now get this: If Shepard chooses Destroy, he will be indoctrinated. But this is the path that will require him to shoot himself like TIM and Saren. The funny thing is, that in a reverse psychology way, Destroy is the most favored option. Because synthesis will leave him a gibbering animal, and control will leave him very loopy. But Destroy will leave him capable yet indoctrinated.

This does make sense, and I can see that as a functional and very sound reasoning for the placement of the breath scene .. Still, my main problem with Refuse being the best choice, the one that lets us fight off Indoctrination and keep our Shepard intact is that it WAS NOT a choice to begin with. I don't care about the leaked script, I don't care about anything other excuse you have given so far either.

A Crucible is a test, we know that, we've all known that, but it's the height of unfairness is to give us a test that has no correct answer, one that leaves us all failing for several months (until the EC release). Even with parallels to the Khubiashi Maru test of Star Trek fame; being an unwinnable scenario, everyone knows that going into it. In the Academy, it's a test to finally show that you are ready to accept sacrifice to complete your mission. How you handle the stress or if you lose your cool in the face of certain death. The only goal you can hope for is to save as many people as possible. The parallel here is obvious, I think. You head into the Reapers Khubiashi Maru, and in the face of the test, do you hold to your ideals, save who and what you can, or do you 1.) Give in to their plays for power? 2.) Believe they will keep everyone alive? 3.) Hold to your resolve, sacrifice those who have professed to be willing to die for the cause, or 4.) Refuse to take the test and say there -has- to be another way?
(That said, we all know what Kirk is famous for, refuses to believe there is a real unwinnable scenario, he rejects the concept and cheats his way around it... but, in both of the Star Trek movies that revolve around the KM, he is shown that at some point someone or something does have to be sacrificed in order to win. *points back to Destroy*)

 I think, personally, that having -everyone- fail, with differing levels of wrongness would just piss off the entire playerbase, not just the ones that picked incorrectly. It is also inherently ... demoralizing, to force on us the fact that Shepard will inevitably be indoctrinated, which is what the ORIGINAL ENDINGS give us, by your reasoning. Bioware gave us a test that we, and Shepard, would inherently fail and succumb to Indoctrination. In fact, it hurts Destroyers MORE because .. honestly, I'd rather my Shepard become a gibbering animal by choosing Synth or Control than become an agent of the Reapers, alive to further destroy his friends and family.



Last edited by CSSteele on Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added more thoughts, fixed grammar and structuring)
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by TurianRebel212 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:53 am

Terramine wrote:Here's my thing. The reveal was never meant to be in ME3. It either never was going to be revealed, or the reveal is ME4. And people criticize the idea that the ending to ME3 would be in the next game. But the truth is, the ending to ME3 still wouldn't be in ME4.

In a trilogy, the endings are all open until the very last one in the set. Bitching that the reveal isn't in ME3 is like bitching that ME2's ending wasn't in ME1 and ME3's ending isn't in ME2. The reveal wouldn't be ME3's ending even if it was placed in the game, the reveal would still be AFTER the ending. ME1 is going to school and ME2 is the studying, ME3 is the test and ME4 is the grade.

Anywho sorry for going off into a tangent. You will see Shepard alive, in ME4.

You will see Shepard alive, in ME4.

Exactly, because Destroy is the intended ending and Shepard only survives in high EMS destroy. This is why destroy is the odd man and out. In all the other "paths", two keys things occur-

1) Shepard dies
2)Reapers Survive


It is really that simple, but many lack the will to pass the "crucible".

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by TurianRebel212 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:04 am

CSSteele wrote:
Terramine wrote:The problem is, that the very moment you compromise with the Reapers you're already indoctrinated and it's only matter of time till your mind degrades. No matter how well together you are, that's why Saren was implanted with more and more tech. Same for TIM.

Now get this: If Shepard chooses Destroy, he will be indoctrinated. But this is the path that will require him to shoot himself like TIM and Saren. The funny thing is, that in a reverse psychology way, Destroy is the most favored option. Because synthesis will leave him a gibbering animal, and control will leave him very loopy. But Destroy will leave him capable yet indoctrinated.

This does make sense, and I can see that as a functional and very sound reasoning for the placement of the breath scene .. Still, my main problem with Refuse being the best choice, the one that lets us fight off Indoctrination and keep our Shepard intact is that it WAS NOT a choice to begin with. I don't care about the leaked script, I don't care about anything other excuse you have given so far either.

A Crucible is a test, we know that, we've all known that, but it's the height of unfairness is to give us a test that has no correct answer, one that leaves us all failing for several months (until the EC release). Even with parallels to the Khubiashi Maru test of Star Trek fame; being an unwinnable scenario, everyone knows that going into it. In the Academy, it's a test to finally show that you are ready to accept sacrifice to complete your mission. How you handle the stress or if you lose your cool in the face of certain death. The only goal you can hope for is to save as many people as possible. The parallel here is obvious, I think. You head into the Reapers Khubiashi Maru, and in the face of the test, do you hold to your ideals, save who and what you can, or do you 1.) Give in to their plays for power? 2.) Believe they will keep everyone alive? 3.) Hold to your resolve, sacrifice those who have professed to be willing to die for the cause, or 4.) Refuse to take the test and say there -has- to be another way?
(That said, we all know what Kirk is famous for, refuses to believe there is a real unwinnable scenario, he rejects the concept and cheats his way around it... but, in both of the Star Trek movies that revolve around the KM, he is shown that at some point someone or something does have to be sacrificed in order to win. *points back to Destroy*)

 I think, personally, that having -everyone- fail, with differing levels of wrongness would just piss off the entire playerbase, not just the ones that picked incorrectly. It is also inherently ... demoralizing, to force on us the fact that Shepard will inevitably be indoctrinated, which is what the ORIGINAL ENDINGS give us, by your reasoning. Bioware gave us a test that we, and Shepard, would inherently fail and succumb to Indoctrination. In fact, it hurts Destroyers MORE because .. honestly, I'd rather my Shepard become a gibbering animal by choosing Synth or Control than become an agent of the Reapers, alive to further destroy his friends and family.


The Crucible device is of Reaper and perhaps Leviathan origin, that much is obvious.

The "ending" is nothing but a Rorschach Test by BioWare.

The only thing that is legit, as in "real", is Shepard waking up (N7 breath scene)- Hence why it's outside of the game AFTER the epilogue and final scenes.

Destroy does not "destroy" the Reapers, lol. Nothing can.



And that's the point.


That's the RED HERRING.


The catalyst and the maccguffin Crucible Device. The "I win button".


It's there to face slap the player with the core theme of Mass Effect 3, and this is where me and Tarramine agree with (I think)-


Did that shit really happen and is this real

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:58 pm

CSSteele wrote:*snip*
Hang on a sec you're ignoring one crucial fact here. You cannot criticize the fairness, when you then turn around and tell synthesizers, controllers and refusers they're wrong. Don't be a hypocrite. As for unfair? Not really, for all intents and purposes you aren't promised success anyways. If a movie can have everyone die and no good ending then so can a video game. It was always bioware's right to have the Reapers win and Shepard lose if they wanted to. Though I'm not even suggesting that per sey, it's one idea... but yeah.

Also this isn't to mention that in contrast to Indoctrination Theory as a whole, my explanation is starting to make more sense than Destroy as the right option is. In terms of indoctrination theory as a whole and the impact it's going to make on EVERYTHING? Refuse as far as I can see wins in that regard. Any of your criticisms apply to indoctrination theory itself, remember that.

And you saying "no i cant see my shepard like that" is:
1.Missing the point and completely wrong in regards to mass effect, to whats going on in the third game especially. The reality is the people who gave a fuck about love interests and wanted all these little nifty features and shit? That's the rabble of the retarded masses. That's not what fucking mass effect is about and you're part of the problem CSSteele. You probably are the type to think Citadel was perfect at literal face value, it was just fan service but you also LOVED it, right? Even if not, you're in line with those kinds of people.

2.Aside from that it's also just a dislike of a certain outcome. Pinning this on the game is like judging the game for not letting you save literally everyone or some other nitpick. You judge something by it's merits not by your personal affiliation for it. I mean sure you don't have to buy the game if you don't like it, but it actually has no bearing on the legitimacy of the game itself and whether or not it will be successful. Because PLENTY of people either don't feel the same way as you do about it, or they don't give a fuck. I happen to be both. You don't want to see your Shepard like that... YOUR Shepard? WHAT!? There is no actual individual Shepard, all our Shepards are the same person. Shepard is Bioware's, and they do with him what they want. Though they're at the mercy of sorts to criticisms from a writing or marketing standpoint. That's it.

What's hilarious is that Destroyers actually already, used a similar idea. That Synthesizers, Controllers and Refusers are all going to see their shep either indoctrinated or dead. You guys commonly condemn my Shepard to shooting himself and I don't whine and fuss about that idea. I merely challenge it, and I don't think it's impossible cause its gonna piss me and the rest of the fanbase off.

I'm not sure why I'm still going with this, really your "argument" is just a bunch of emotional yabber. But really, IF it pissed off the entire fanbase their pissedoffness would be unjustified. There's no actual unfairness here. To the contrary Destroy being right would truly be unfair, but my idea ISN'T unfair. The right choice not being in the game AT ALL would be perfectly fine. And the EC was free which covers any actual gripe over content not being in the game. The only gripe people could have, is when DLC that costs money has content in it that should've been in the game from the beginning. The EC is free.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:16 pm

-The Reapers are the enemy
-You're in a Reaper
-Everything is the matrix (of organic and synthetic life)

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:24 pm

TurianRebel212 wrote:
Terramine wrote:Here's my thing. The reveal was never meant to be in ME3. It either never was going to be revealed, or the reveal is ME4. And people criticize the idea that the ending to ME3 would be in the next game. But the truth is, the ending to ME3 still wouldn't be in ME4.

In a trilogy, the endings are all open until the very last one in the set. Bitching that the reveal isn't in ME3 is like bitching that ME2's ending wasn't in ME1 and ME3's ending isn't in ME2. The reveal wouldn't be ME3's ending even if it was placed in the game, the reveal would still be AFTER the ending. ME1 is going to school and ME2 is the studying, ME3 is the test and ME4 is the grade.

Anywho sorry for going off into a tangent. You will see Shepard alive, in ME4.

You will see Shepard alive, in ME4.

Exactly, because Destroy is the intended ending and Shepard only survives in high EMS destroy. This is why destroy is the odd man and out. In all the other "paths", two keys things occur-

1) Shepard dies
2)Reapers Survive


It is really that simple, but many lack the will to pass the "crucible".
No man, will got's nothing to do with it. plenty of fucking people would make sacrifices in a heartbreat. Plenty of renegade players. And even more so people who have no problem with making a choice in a video game cause it's not real. Heck plenty of people have accidentally won, they chose destroy for all the wrong reasons. Which btw you're one of them. It's not about hard choices, that's too in narrative the Reapers are painting.

Indoctrination Theory is ONLY really about how no matter what, the Reapers are the bad guys and thinking otherwise for even a second is to be indoctrinated. What you're saying has nothing to do with indoctrination theory and yeah. What you're saying is a literalist idea. To suggest in the slightest, that we must take the ending at face value and make a choice. That's missing the point completely, that's as wrong as you can possibly get.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

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