Refuse in the place of Destroy

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Restrider on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:27 pm

Lokanaiya wrote:

Erm, not really. Again, Refuse is NOT surrendering. I honestly have no idea why people keep saying this. : /

Either way, one point for Refuse is that it's the only ending that remains true to the themes of the series, in particular self-determination and doing the impossible. All of the other endings, including Destroy, totally wreck self-determination to varying degrees and, while space magic may be impossible, that's not the kind throughout the series.

Another thing for Refuse: Destroy may be the sensible correct choice, in that you would take it in real life for the good of everyone, but Refuse is the idealist correct choice, in that it's staying true to Shepard's beliefs and convictions. In a battle of the mind with giant space Cthulhus who are masters of manipulation, which do you think is more important?

This!

I have always wondered about the double standards I've seen when it comes to this discussion. People who usually point out flaws reductionists make in an IT-discussion do the same flaws.
For instance, a famous thing reductionists say is that the Geth die in Destroy when discussing IT, although it is all a battle in Shepard's head under the premise of IT.
Why some of the same people pointing out this logical flaw then discard Refuse, because they see everyone die in a cinematic, is beyond me.
Another frequent "counter argument" for Refuse amongst some ITers was that without using the Crucible, how could be possibly beat the Reapers?

Really?

I think it is a safe bet to assume that the Crucible is at best a dud and at worst some sort of offensive Reaper weapon. But that isn't even the point. Remember, under the premise of IT, it is all in Shepard's head. Regardless of which choice wakes you up, the war is still not over (unless you believe in some sort of Deception Theory / Waking Nightmare Theory mix).
So, let me get this straight...
If you choose Destroy and wake up, the hallucinated end of the war (aka the war is still going on) is not a problem, but if you choose Refuse it is?

And others freak out about the difference in the Stargazer scene. Others have argued it is outside of the narrative, et cetera. I don't think it is such an important point.

These statements are not in this thread (yet). But I have heard these in the Refuse thread I opened and on other occasions. And not by the typical Synthesis loving reductionists, who have their head up their asses.

Anyways. To sum up, Refuse is the ending that:
- is hated most by the Reapers (look at the last page of the Refuse Thread in my signature for a brief analysis of the dialogue)
- stays mostly true to ME's themes
- shows Shepard antagonizing the Reapers most (even more so than Destroy)
- has a comparable vibe to other events in the series (think outside-the-box; do the impossible)

The only gripe I have with Refuse is how/when it was implemented. Most reductionists and the majority of ITers see it just as fan-service and BW's middle-finger for not liking Starbrat. And I cannot really argue against it.
But, since most people think that with Citadel DLC ME3 is done, I start to think that neither Destroy nor Refuse is the clear cut only choice to beat the Reapers. After all, Destroy has the Breath Scene and the fact that it was in the original endings.

My final statement for this is that Refuse opens a lot of intriguing questions, but I suppose they will be left unanswered.

EDIT: Top with a quality post. That's the way.

2nd EDIT: To what Gummy said:

Not really. It's more like having a Predator with 1 shot while fighting an Atlas. The other person offers you a missile launcher, but you opt out (which it is even named in the game files) just because you don't trust the other person.

If the "other person" revealed itself as the collected intelligence of the Reapers, which are known to not being trustworthy, YES, I would not take the missile launcher.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:59 pm

Dangit Restrider, you always know how to say what I'm trying to say... but with better wording.

More power to ya in that regard tongue

Edit: then again, I need to drink some coffee to get fully awake still lol!

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:59 pm

"Vengeance is the goal, suicide is not." Javik

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:16 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:"Vengeance is the goal, suicide is not." Javik
That is the choice of a dead and almost failed cycle. And it now has handed the torch to our cycle.

"Hope did not save my people. But we never bothered to try. Maybe your cycle will be different." - Javik

The dead cycle admits it is wrong, hope is our only chance. Hope is our goal.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by MovieMachine on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:28 pm

Lokanaiya wrote:

Erm, not really. Again, Refuse is NOT surrendering. I honestly have no idea why people keep saying this. : /

Either way, one point for Refuse is that it's the only ending that remains true to the themes of the series, in particular self-determination and doing the impossible. All of the other endings, including Destroy, totally wreck self-determination to varying degrees and, while space magic may be impossible, that's not the kind throughout the series.

Another thing for Refuse: Destroy may be the sensible correct choice, in that you would take it in real life for the good of everyone, but Refuse is the idealist correct choice, in that it's staying true to Shepard's beliefs and convictions. In a battle of the mind with giant space Cthulhus who are masters of manipulation, which do you think is more important?

Refuse is not surrendering, that's for sure. It's just a stupid "decision".

To the bolded, why does everyone and their mother around here (or so it seems at least) only consider the ending events as a pure mind battle? Did Harbinger suddenly lose his ability to zap things dead with his mega-powered laz0r of doom? What makes everybody think that while he's got Shep unconscious, he's suddenly completely unable to do anything else?

The way I see the ending, is that Harbinger is pointing a gun at you while you are tied up (lying in the rubble). Then he asks you to play this little RGB game.

So where is the logic in that situation to just ignore everything your omnipowered archenemy presents to you and start talking about your moral standards?

No wonder Harbinger is pissed. Rejecting the options laid out for you in a situation where your only choice is to play along with them is pure idiocy.

Idealism in a situation like this just gets Shep killed.



And sorry if this comes off as overly confrontational, nothing against you (or anybody else, for that matter).
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Restrider on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:17 am

MovieMachine wrote:

Refuse is not surrendering, that's for sure. It's just a stupid "decision".

To the bolded, why does everyone and their mother around here (or so it seems at least) only consider the ending events as a pure mind battle? Did Harbinger suddenly lose his ability to zap things dead with his mega-powered laz0r of doom? What makes everybody think that while he's got Shep unconscious, he's suddenly completely unable to do anything else?

The way I see the ending, is that Harbinger is pointing a gun at you while you are tied up (lying in the rubble). Then he asks you to play this little RGB game.

So where is the logic in that situation to just ignore everything your omnipowered archenemy presents to you and start talking about your moral standards?

No wonder Harbinger is pissed. Rejecting the options laid out for you in a situation where your only choice is to play along with them is pure idiocy.

Idealism in a situation like this just gets Shep killed.



And sorry if this comes off as overly confrontational, nothing against you (or anybody else, for that matter).

And why wouldnt Harbinger kill Shepard, if his choice was Destroy?
Most people believe that's actually what happens in Low and Mid EMS Destroy. Only if you have enough EMS, Shepard survives.
And to the lack of an Breath Scene in Refuse: It would just proof IT.
Anyway, I think this discussion is moot, since with people having their opinions and no further content in the near future (at least I do not suspect anything coming soon), this will just end in a circular debate.

It's obvious that Refuse cannot be dismissed as easily as Synthesis and Control, where the themes of the entire trilogy scream indoctrination. But it cannot clearly be attributed as "better than Destroy" or even "victory".

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:51 am

Restrider wrote:
*snip*
Anyway, I think this discussion is moot, since with people having their opinions and no further content in the near future (at least I do not suspect anything coming soon), this will just end in a circular debate.

It's obvious that Refuse cannot be dismissed as easily as Synthesis and Control, where the themes of the entire trilogy scream indoctrination. But it cannot clearly be attributed as "better than Destroy" or even "victory".
Hence why I can never truly say I am a Refuser, I'm a Destroy/Refuse kind of person. I group them together simply because there is a lot of uncertainties.

This thread wasn't about strictly disproving Destroy as the best option, though that is on topic, it's mainly about constructing enough of a viewpoint backed up by in game lore and dialogue, symbolism, etc to have it as an equal alternative to Destroy. Not so that Destroyers would think it is just as good, but so that any Refusers out there have a bit better justification for their position.

But you're right, it seems speculation fuel is running dry due to things being quiet till ME4 as far as we can see.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by MovieMachine on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:45 am

[quote="Restrider"]


And why wouldnt Harbinger kill Shepard, if his choice was Destroy?

"Speculation from everyone". AKA I've no idea.


Most people believe that's actually what happens in Low and Mid EMS Destroy. Only if you have enough EMS, Shepard survives.

This is my interpretation as well.


And to the lack of an Breath Scene in Refuse: It would just proof IT.

Maybe. However, the refuse ending doesn't exactly feel uplifting or anything, and rather feels like a failure. But that's just me. In the other endings, Harbinger feeds Shepard's brain with victorious images, even in destroy for some reason. Clearly he wants Shepard to believe he's won, one way or another. In refuse, you're subjected to a depressing epilogue of sorts. Whether that is a good thing or not is once again speculation (the Liara epilogue could really be actually happening, as far as I'm concerned).


Anyway, I think this discussion is moot, since with people having their opinions and no further content in the near future (at least I do not suspect anything coming soon), this will just end in a circular debate.

I guess so. I think my point with my previous post was to just throw my stance on this out there, so that if any continuation is ever going to come, I can prove myself how right or wrong I was about things. It's set in stone now.


It's obvious that Refuse cannot be dismissed as easily as Synthesis and Control, where the themes of the entire trilogy scream indoctrination. But it cannot clearly be attributed as "better than Destroy" or even "victory".

Agreed.
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Restrider on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:13 pm

That's the fun thing. In every ending (including Refuse), the Reapers lose in the end.
I happen to believe that Shepard is just justifying their choice and sees pretty images. Refuser Shepards subconciously know that this choice can likely doom this cycle, yet the Reapers still lose.
And I wouldnt go so far and say, this ending epilogue is a hallucination and this one is real (with the only exception being the Breath Scene and nothing more).

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by dorktainian on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:41 pm

look at my post on the IT thread about the possibility that shep is not doing what he thinks he is doing due to indoctrination.

Now apply this to the end choices and suddenly Refuse becomes the best ending.

Destroy. Destroy all lifeforms.
Control. Control all lifeforms.
Synthesis. Reaperise all lifeforms.

Refuse.

Yay the perfect example.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Eryri on Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:33 pm

Restrider wrote:That's the fun thing. In every ending (including Refuse), the Reapers lose in the end.

Which is yet another reason why the literal endings are so unsatisfying. The Reapers are doomed no matter what Shepard's chooses, or how incompetent he happens to be. True it may take another 50,000 years for the next cycle to beat them, but beat them they will. The Reapers aren't really defeated by Shepard's (or our) efforts, it's just their time to die. Perhaps Bioware were trying to make some point about inevitability, or fate, or the unstoppable forces of history, or some crap like that.
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Restrider on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:17 pm

Eryri wrote:
Restrider wrote:That's the fun thing. In every ending (including Refuse), the Reapers lose in the end.

Which is yet another reason why the literal endings are so unsatisfying. The Reapers are doomed no matter what Shepard's chooses, or how incompetent he happens to be. True it may take another 50,000 years for the next cycle to beat them, but beat them they will. The Reapers aren't really defeated by Shepard's (or our) efforts, it's just their time to die. Perhaps Bioware were trying to make some point about inevitability, or fate, or the unstoppable forces of history, or some crap like that.

A somewhat grim point and conveyed in a poor fashion.
As far as I know, self-determinism vs determinism was one of the main topics in the trilogy. If the Reapers' annihilation was determined regardless of our choices... well, you get why I hate that idea, don't you?

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Eryri on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:31 pm

Restrider wrote:

A somewhat grim point and conveyed in a poor fashion.
As far as I know, self-determinism vs determinism was one of the main topics in the trilogy. If the Reapers' annihilation was determined regardless of our choices... well, you get why I hate that idea, don't you?

Absolutely. There's actually no minimum ems for Destroy to kill the Reapers is there? True, Earth is completely annihilated at low EMS, but we can't actually fail to kill the Reapers. Unless you count "Critical Mission Failure" which apparently Mike Gamble does.

That dreadful internet loudmouth who pretends to be the Hulk and writes ALL IN CAPS, seems to like the inevitability theme though. Apparently all we critics of the ending were philistines who just didn't appreciate that the game was all about these inexorable cycles. Why that person thought such a nihilistic theme expressed through a fictional and arbitrary 50,000 year cycle was remotely profound is quite beyond me, but there you go.


Last edited by Eryri on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by MovieMachine on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:39 pm

Restrider wrote:
And I wouldnt go so far and say, this ending epilogue is a hallucination and this one is real (with the only exception being the Breath Scene and nothing more).

Why not? Starbrat

Speculations are (sadly) all we have right now, might as well go all the way.





...maybe another time.
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by BleedingUranium on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:02 am

Charlie Sheen wrote:Choose Destroy, and Shepard wakes up and breaks indoctrination.

Choose Refuse, and Shepard stays in a coma.

That's pretty much it.
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:16 pm

BleedingUranium wrote:
Charlie Sheen wrote:Choose Destroy, and Shepard wakes up and breaks indoctrination.

Choose Refuse, and Shepard stays in a coma.

That's pretty much it.

Yeah, my theory is that Shepard doesn't wake up in refuse because she knows she doomed the cycle.

In high EMS destroy, she knows she did every possible thing, and refuses to believe she died.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by MovieMachine on Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:12 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Yeah, my theory is that Shepard doesn't wake up in refuse because she knows she doomed the cycle.

Trying to avoid to add more fuel to the refuse vs. destroy war here, but I have to ask: Where does this "in refuse you just continue to sleep in a coma" - idea come from? Where's the proof for this?

Why would Harbinger just let Shep continue her nap after pissing him off? What's to stop him from just blasting her to ashes?

I've never found any good, logical explanation for this "coma" thing.

So please explain, I'd love to have this make some sense to me.
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:27 pm

I'm not saying Shep is in a coma. Nobody knows.

All that I know is that you don't wake up.

I agree that you're probably more likely to die.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Eryri on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:35 pm

I must admit, I have a soft spot for Refuse. I think I would be happiest if both it and Destroy were viable ways to break indoctrination. It feels like the more "Captain Kirk" or even "Captain Picard" thing to do. Refusing to stoop to the cynical level of your enemies, and finding another way (even if that other way is not immediately apparent).

On the other hand I do also understand why most people here think it seems like giving up. Being unable to make the hard choices. I suppose it would fit best for role playing reasons if Shepard had accrued a monstrously high ems, and genuinely believed that he/she could win by sheer force of arms, rather than it being empty bluster, but given the overwhelming superiority of the Reapers that would need something like +100 000 ems.
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by MovieMachine on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:00 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:I'm not saying Shep is in a coma. Nobody knows.

Misquoted, I meant it for those guys you decided to quote.
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by dorktainian on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:33 pm

this shouldnt be possible should it?

Shepard ended the reaper threat. Where in game does it show us this? Cutscenes?

You cannot have 3 endings to a singular narrative while maintaining the epilogue as a singular structure. It is not possible at all.

Refuse is a big unknown. For all we know Shepard & friends could be sat off camera somewhere enjoying a picnic. we do not know. we assume everything went tits up. Do we have any evidence apart from liaras recording (in a fkin cave?)

so the end - no matter what happens is just wrong. it is not an end. it is nonsense.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm

Eryri wrote:I must admit, I have a soft spot for Refuse. I think I would be happiest if both it and Destroy were viable ways to break indoctrination. It feels like the more "Captain Kirk" or even "Captain Picard" thing to do. Refusing to stoop to the cynical level of your enemies, and finding another way (even if that other way is not immediately apparent).

On the other hand I do also understand why most people here think it seems like giving up. Being unable to make the hard choices. I suppose it would fit best for role playing reasons if Shepard had accrued a monstrously high ems, and genuinely believed that he/she could win by sheer force of arms, rather than it being empty bluster, but given the overwhelming superiority of the Reapers that would need something like +100 000 ems.

I like Refuse too, because it exposes what's going on, without truly exposing it for players yet.


"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."

"But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it."

I guess what I'm saying is that while Max EMS Destroy is 'purging' the illusion, Refuse is the sudden cutoff of it. You don't want to do that. While it makes meta sense to to it ("Come on! It's fake! Say no!"), it's the most dangerous thing to do in this specific scenario, if it's in Shepard's mind in any form.

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill -- the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill -- you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."


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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:56 pm

SwobyJ wrote:*snip*

I guess what I'm saying is that while Max EMS Destroy is 'purging' the illusion, Refuse is the sudden cutoff of it. You don't want to do that. While it makes meta sense to to it ("Come on! It's fake! Say no!"), it's the most dangerous thing to do in this specific scenario, if it's in Shepard's mind in any form.

*snip*
I don't necessarily agree, well actually I'm more neutral. But the thing is, Refuse can just as easily be seen as Shepard realizing who he is and thus it is the gentle kind of purge. Whereas Destroy, you shoot the tube and it causes a violent purge. Both your viewpoint, and this viewpoint is completely equal and there is not necessarily a reason to see it one way or another.

Though I still don't get, why shooting something in your mind is good.

Thinking about it now, since the tube represents Destroy... shooting the tube, is not necessarily symbolism for destroying the reapers. You are shooting the tube, not the Reaper boy. The tube symbolizes destroying the Reapers, so you are shooting that Symbol. It reminds me of how the illusive man can claim to be pro-human but he points his gun at the perfect example of Humanity(Shepard). You claim to be in it for humanity, but you betray humanity. you claim to be in it for destroying the Reapers, and you turn your gun on the symbol for destroying the reapers.

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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:45 am

IronicParticle wrote:
SwobyJ wrote:*snip*

I guess what I'm saying is that while Max EMS Destroy is 'purging' the illusion, Refuse is the sudden cutoff of it. You don't want to do that. While it makes meta sense to to it ("Come on! It's fake! Say no!"), it's the most dangerous thing to do in this specific scenario, if it's in Shepard's mind in any form.

*snip*
I don't necessarily agree, well actually I'm more neutral. But the thing is, Refuse can just as easily be seen as Shepard realizing who he is and thus it is the gentle kind of purge. Whereas Destroy, you shoot the tube and it causes a violent purge. Both your viewpoint, and this viewpoint is completely equal and there is not necessarily a reason to see it one way or another.

Though I still don't get, why shooting something in your mind is good.

Thinking about it now, since the tube represents Destroy... shooting the tube, is not necessarily symbolism for destroying the reapers. You are shooting the tube, not the Reaper boy. The tube symbolizes destroying the Reapers, so you are shooting that Symbol. It reminds me of how the illusive man can claim to be pro-human but he points his gun at the perfect example of Humanity(Shepard). You claim to be in it for humanity, but you betray humanity. you claim to be in it for destroying the Reapers, and you turn your gun on the symbol for destroying the reapers.

I'm ok with shooting that.


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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

Post by Terramine on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:53 am

SwobyJ wrote:

I'm ok with shooting that.

*snip*
That seems like a fallacy, maybe I'm wrong.

But again, if the reapers are trying to get you to shoot the tube... then clearly, comparing it to the Proto-Reaper is what they WANT you to do. Again, the tube itself does not symbolize the Reapers. It is a manifestation of destroy, in your mind. The kid seems to prefer you shoot the tube, instead of focusing on the fact that he is the enemy. Remember, how we believe they swapped colors around and whatnot to confuse us? The same thing can be said about the tube, they put the tube there because they knew we'd make the connections they want us to.

Basically, of course you can compare it to that. That's the point I was making, they make us want to shoot it.

Which again, the tube is not a manifestation of the Reapers. The Catalyst is. So you aren't shooting the Reapers, you are literally shooting the idea of "destroy" itself.

Edit: So again, this idea is not so easily dismissed.

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Terramine
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Re: Refuse in the place of Destroy

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