Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Steelcan on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:42 pm

Here's the OP from BSN. And here's the link http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/16519456


After having pondered the endings for much more time than I care to admit, I've reached a conclusion. Based on what the Catalyst says, what he doesn't say, and how he acts I've reached the conclusion that the Catalyst is very similar to a "Dumb" AI from Halo's lore.

First things first, "dumb" is not any sort of commentary on the Catalyst's intelligence. It simply a moniker attached to AI's in Halo lore that cannot outgrow their original programming as opposed to those who can, "Smart" AI's.

What proof do I have for this? One of the most contested points about the Catalyst is why he doesn't acknlowlwedge the end results of Rannoch's story arc. If peace is attained or the quarians win, the Catalyst's assertions become laughable. Why doesn't he acknowledge this? If he is a "Dumb" AI equivalent than it is because he can't. He can't change himself despite evidence that he is wrong. This also ties into the "Crucible changed me, created...new possibilities". The Crucible is able to alter his core programming to enable the different solutions, but it does not change him enough for him to realize the error in his reasoning. Furthermore his belief that the Reapers cannot be beaten conventionally is further proof of this. While it may be impossible for our current cycle to win conventionally each cycle climbs further than the last. Each one improves and is a larger threat than the one before it. It stands to reason that if this trend continues evantually the races if the galaxy will be able to achieve conventional victory. The Catalyst however seems to be stuck in his own loop, "organics rise, create synthetics, conflict emerges, we interrupt before organics destroy synthe- I mean before organics lose". He cannot seem to comprehend that his logic that may have been applicable in the past, is no longer relevant.

TL:DR. The Catalyst is the equivalent of a "dumb" AI because he cannot escape his own progr.amming despite evidence that his assertions are wrong.

thoughts?
avatar
Steelcan
Scion

Posts : 609
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 21
Location : Columbia SC

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Lombus on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:46 pm

I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?

_________________
Mass Effect: Strength through diversity.  And victory through unity.

"In our darkest moments, when life flashes before us, we find something. Something that keeps us going. Something that pushes us. When all seemed lost, I found a truth. And I knew what I must become. "
cat Hell Cat  cat
avatar
Lombus
Adjutant

Posts : 559
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 24
Location : Portugal

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:49 pm

It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.

_________________
"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson

avatar
DoomsdayDevice
Being of Light

Posts : 2958
Join date : 2013-01-08
Location : Probing Uranus

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by umadcommander on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:49 pm

could be something similar i suppose, although wouldnt that just make him a VI? one of the defining characteristics of AI's in mass effect is that they can change their views on something, its part of why they are so feared

_________________
avatar
umadcommander
Rachni Brood Warrior

Posts : 430
Join date : 2013-01-07
Age : 21
Location : UK

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Humakt on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:50 pm

"Child" is here to manipulate and confound player. Avert the player from his/her goal. Indoctrinate Shepard as you will. Thing's form alone is enough to show that it is manipulating player.

"Child" is also capable of lying. I don't think that counts as a dumb AI.

Just look at my avatar and claim that "Child" is not malicious at all.


Last edited by Humakt83 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:54 pm; edited 2 times in total

_________________
Child: The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us.
avatar
Humakt
Nightmare

Posts : 308
Join date : 2013-01-07
Age : 34

http://www.celestialheavens.com/thundermaps/

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:51 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.
EDI while locked by Cerberus is a good example. She was really intelligent, but couldn't "evolve" past what she was already programmed to do until the locks were removed.
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Steelcan on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:06 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.
. Shackled EDI
avatar
Steelcan
Scion

Posts : 609
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 21
Location : Columbia SC

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Steelcan on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:07 pm

Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?
. It depends on what he meant by die. If he meant Shelard would be killed by the Destroy process that's probably a lie, but saying that Shepard's descendant will be doomed, that's his faulty wiring so to speak

_________________
@ lex0r11 :  i don't know who's in the chat more. steel or norlond.  this is like their shared apartment
avatar
Steelcan
Scion

Posts : 609
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 21
Location : Columbia SC

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Raistlin Majere on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:12 pm

Steelcan wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.
. Shackled EDI

She was limited in what information she could give Shepard and her access to the ships system, but nothing suggest it limited her intelligence or the conclusions she could draw.

_________________
Heroes get Remembered, but Legends never Die.
avatar
Raistlin Majere
N7

Posts : 1089
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 25
Location : Denmark

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by ZerebusPrime on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:23 pm

So, one way of changing the way someone else thinks is to make your assertion over and over again irregardless of evidence to the contrary. Combined with exhaustion and physical trauma, the subject becomes "reprogrammed" to believe your assertions. That's why the question and answer session went on like it did; the Catalyst is there to make you forget your own beliefs and instead accept his own point of view. It's shocking just how well it works, too.

I don't think that the Reaper Intelligence would be unable to reprogram itself in general since the Reapers as a whole seem eminently adaptable. I would, however, consider the possibility that the Intelligence is unable to reprogram a set of core directives, Robocop style. Yet, I find it more likely that the "Catalyst" presents a logical fallacy to expedite the breakdown in Shepard's own logic.
avatar
ZerebusPrime
Space Cow

Posts : 829
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 38

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Gummy on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:25 pm

Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?
Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.
avatar
Gummy
Gas Bag

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-31
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Lombus on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:30 pm

Gummy wrote:
Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?
Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.
"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.

_________________
Mass Effect: Strength through diversity.  And victory through unity.

"In our darkest moments, when life flashes before us, we find something. Something that keeps us going. Something that pushes us. When all seemed lost, I found a truth. And I knew what I must become. "
cat Hell Cat  cat
avatar
Lombus
Adjutant

Posts : 559
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 24
Location : Portugal

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:32 pm

Lombus wrote:
Gummy wrote:
Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?
Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.
"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.
He just says that Shepard will be affected. He never says Shepard will die, like he does in the Control, Synthesis, and Refuse options.
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Gummy on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:37 pm

Yes, what Selim said. The Guaridan outright tells you you will die in any other option but in destroy.
avatar
Gummy
Gas Bag

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-31
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Steelcan on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:37 pm

Selim Bradley wrote:
Lombus wrote:
Gummy wrote:
Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?
Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.
"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.
He just says that Shepard will be affected. He never says Shepard will die, like he does in the Control, Synthesis, and Refuse options.
. This. He also doesn't say the geth will die, he just says all synthetics will be targeted

_________________
@ lex0r11 :  i don't know who's in the chat more. steel or norlond.  this is like their shared apartment
avatar
Steelcan
Scion

Posts : 609
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 21
Location : Columbia SC

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Gummy on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:39 pm

That one is not entirely true Steelcan, pre EC it does say that the Geth will die, but that line is cut with the EC.
avatar
Gummy
Gas Bag

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-31
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Lombus on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:43 pm

Selim Bradley wrote:
Lombus wrote:
Gummy wrote:
Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?
Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.
"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.
He just says that Shepard will be affected. He never says Shepard will die, like he does in the Control, Synthesis, and Refuse options.

Gummy wrote:Yes, what Selim said. The Guaridan outright tells you you will die in any other option but in destroy.
He's hinting at it nonetheless...why would he even mention that Shepard had implants if that would make no difference at all? Tongue

_________________
Mass Effect: Strength through diversity.  And victory through unity.

"In our darkest moments, when life flashes before us, we find something. Something that keeps us going. Something that pushes us. When all seemed lost, I found a truth. And I knew what I must become. "
cat Hell Cat  cat
avatar
Lombus
Adjutant

Posts : 559
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 24
Location : Portugal

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:45 pm

Lombus wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
Lombus wrote:
Gummy wrote:
Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?
Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.
"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.
He just says that Shepard will be affected. He never says Shepard will die, like he does in the Control, Synthesis, and Refuse options.

Gummy wrote:Yes, what Selim said. The Guaridan outright tells you you will die in any other option but in destroy.
He's hinting at it nonetheless...why would he even mention that Shepard had implants if that would make no difference at all? Tongue
To confuse Shepard, like we all think he's trying to do.
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Gummy on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:00 pm

Yes, confuse, but the point is still: it doesn't lie with what it says. I don't think BW would have just said shep dies in destroy if they wanted it to lie, but they purposely made an exception here.
avatar
Gummy
Gas Bag

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-31
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Steelcan on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:05 pm

Gummy wrote:That one is not entirely true Steelcan, pre EC it does say that the Geth will die, but that line is cut with the EC.
. What does he say if the geth are dead pre-EC?
avatar
Steelcan
Scion

Posts : 609
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 21
Location : Columbia SC

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Gummy on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:14 pm

It just leaves it out like it is now.
avatar
Gummy
Gas Bag

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-31
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Lombus on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:23 pm

Selim Bradley wrote:
Lombus wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
Lombus wrote:
Gummy wrote:
Lombus wrote:I understand the concept and it makes a lot a sense. I'm kinda wondering something though: when he said Shepard would die if choose destroy was he knowingly lying or did he really thought that was the truth because of his faulty programming?
Considering it never says so it's never a lie. It only says "even you are partly synthetic", of course it's shoved in there to throw the player off, but it never says that you will surely die.
"The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic." That heavy implies that Shepard will be target as well because of his implants. So he's lying.The question is the reason why.
He just says that Shepard will be affected. He never says Shepard will die, like he does in the Control, Synthesis, and Refuse options.

Gummy wrote:Yes, what Selim said. The Guaridan outright tells you you will die in any other option but in destroy.
He's hinting at it nonetheless...why would he even mention that Shepard had implants if that would make no difference at all? Tongue
To confuse Shepard, like we all think he's trying to do.

Gummy wrote:Yes, confuse, but the point is still: it doesn't lie with what it says. I don't think BW would have just said shep dies in destroy if they wanted it to lie, but they purposely made an exception here.

Alright you both win this round...2 against 1 isn't even fair Grin . But I get what you say I just assumed something that probably wasn't really there.

_________________
Mass Effect: Strength through diversity.  And victory through unity.

"In our darkest moments, when life flashes before us, we find something. Something that keeps us going. Something that pushes us. When all seemed lost, I found a truth. And I knew what I must become. "
cat Hell Cat  cat
avatar
Lombus
Adjutant

Posts : 559
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 24
Location : Portugal

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:24 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.
. Shackled EDI

She was limited in what information she could give Shepard and her access to the ships system, but nothing suggest it limited her intelligence or the conclusions she could draw.

This.

_________________
"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson

avatar
DoomsdayDevice
Being of Light

Posts : 2958
Join date : 2013-01-08
Location : Probing Uranus

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Steelcan on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:55 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
Steelcan wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:It's interesting, although we're not familiar with that kind of AI in the ME universe. Well there's VIs, of course. But I don't think we've seen 'limited AI' so to speak.
. Shackled EDI

She was limited in what information she could give Shepard and her access to the ships system, but nothing suggest it limited her intelligence or the conclusions she could draw.

This.
. Those limits were limits on her intelligence as well. It prevented her from being totally free. She couldn't grow her programming because it might have made her loose value for the lives aboard the Normandy. She mentions this after she's freed.
avatar
Steelcan
Scion

Posts : 609
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 21
Location : Columbia SC

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:05 am

So you're saying that the Ah, yes... catalyst Ah, yes... is a shackled AI? Wondering

_________________
"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson

avatar
DoomsdayDevice
Being of Light

Posts : 2958
Join date : 2013-01-08
Location : Probing Uranus

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum