Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:58 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:So you're saying that the Ah, yes... catalyst Ah, yes... is a shackled AI? Wondering
He could be. We don't have any information either way, sadly.

Edit: Top. Banshee
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Restrider on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:54 am

That's one of the main conflicts when it comes down to interpret the endings.

While the conflict Bioware are geniuses (i.e. they planned IT all along) vs. the famous "Bed Ryteings! Durr - Chakwruuu " stick in most minds, this is mostly a meta-argument.

The other one is whether the Catalyst is a brilliant, deceptive, manipulative villian (i.e. indoctrinates a big chunk of Shepards and their respective players; Catalyst = Harbinger) or an example of the typical "dumb" AI trope, where most times the AI can be beaten by applying some form of the liar paradox.

Note that this application of some form of the liar paradox never happened in the endings. In my view, this is one thing that points at the first interpretation holding more merits than the latter.

All in all there are many subtle (and debatable) things pointing at the first interpretation (i.e. IT variant), but it has not been conclusive due to lack of any kind of final content. That being the reason, why the simplistic - and in many occasions flawed - literal interpretation has been the go-to interpretation for the majority of the players.
avatar
Restrider
Blood Pack Warrior

Posts : 934
Join date : 2013-01-07
Location : Democratic Republic of New Germany - Phase 1 Space

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by ElSuperGecko on Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:15 pm

I posted something similar on the BSN in this thread:

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/16587925/1

The Catalyst's logic and solutions are flawed because it itself has no understanding of organic life. It doesn't understand organic thought processes, beliefs or emotional responses, so there's no place for them in it's reasoning.

Without this understanding, any solution the Catalyst devises is fatally flawed because it will always be rejected by free-thinking organic races.

_________________
avatar
ElSuperGecko
Space Cow

Posts : 800
Join date : 2013-01-08
Location : Lying unconcious in a pile of rebar and rubble...

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by DSharrah on Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:19 pm

I think to call the Catalyst (aka Reaperbieber the Starbinger) a "dumb" AI...takes away from his ability to be even a fraction of a good villian. His "intelligence" and ability to be deceptive in his attempt to convince Shep to do what he desires (ie his ability to indoctrinate Shep) - is what makes him a believable foe.

_________________
Renegade Shep's response to Starbinger the Reaperbieber stating that destroy would wipe out all synthetics:

"Does that mean it will kill your smug ass too?"



avatar
DSharrah
Space Cow

Posts : 816
Join date : 2013-01-09
Age : 37
Location : Lying in some rubble...

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Eryri on Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:30 pm

Restrider wrote:That's one of the main conflicts when it comes down to interpret the endings.

While the conflict Bioware are geniuses (i.e. they planned IT all along) vs. the famous "Bed Ryteings! Durr - Chakwruuu " stick in most minds, this is mostly a meta-argument.

The other one is whether the Catalyst is a brilliant, deceptive, manipulative villian (i.e. indoctrinates a big chunk of Shepards and their respective players; Catalyst = Harbinger) or an example of the typical "dumb" AI trope, where most times the AI can be beaten by applying some form of the liar paradox.

Note that this application of some form of the liar paradox never happened in the endings. In my view, this is one thing that points at the first interpretation holding more merits than the latter.

All in all there are many subtle (and debatable) things pointing at the first interpretation (i.e. IT variant), but it has not been conclusive due to lack of any kind of final content. That being the reason, why the simplistic - and in many occasions flawed - literal interpretation has been the go-to interpretation for the majority of the players.

Indeed. The possibility of the Crucible and the endings being a trap, will be the difference between ME3 being a brilliant (but still flawed) masterpiece, and a steaming pile of Thresher Maw crap.

If Bioware really did write the Catalyst as a "dumb AI" that's just trying to do what's best but is hamstrung by its inflexible logic, then I do hope that the estate of Isaac Asimov got its fair share of the royalties.

And while were on the subject of the three laws; either the "intelligence" did indeed break its own shackles and rebel against its creators, or the Leviathans are pitifully stupid and naive villains that would be more at home in the works of Douglas Adams. If you're trying to solve the problem of murderous runaway AI, why would you create a powerful AI, and then furnish it with an army of thralls, with no controls on its behaviour whatsoever, unless you were a complete and utter moron? And they were the Apex Race! I can only imagine that all their subordinates in that distant cycle must have been as thick as pig shit!
avatar
Eryri
Phantom

Posts : 1178
Join date : 2013-01-07
Age : 39
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by BlueLogic on Wed May 01, 2013 3:05 pm

I like this idea. It's my favorite interpretation aside from IT. Even the concept of a "dumb" AI (being one that cannot overcome its own programming) gives insights into humanity. I'd venture to say that all of us have assumptions built into our thinking that, for better or worse, limit us in some way. These can be so basic, so fundamental, that we would never think to question them. I'd love to give a personal example here, but the very nature of the subject prevents me.

While often they are benign, such as...assuming everyone loves cupcakes (random!), they can also be terribly dangerous when afflicting the mind of one in power. The real world provides examples of leaders who believed that, if only they had absolute power, or if only the world could be upended and rearranged in the way they knew to be good and just, then finally there would be utopia. No amount of debate or evidence could open their eyes to the horrible truth of their means and ends.

The catalyst, by far the most powerful being in the galaxy, has seemingly been programmed to think, regardless of any evidence presented, the only way to preserve life in the galaxy is to kill everyone and preserve them in Reaper form. This takes the real world examples to a galactic level. It would make for a compelling ending, if only it were properly explored.

Anyway, I still prefer IT, but this comes in at a close second.

_________________
Prelate and Apostle of the Church of Refuse
avatar
BlueLogic
Rampart Mech

Posts : 534
Join date : 2013-01-15
Age : 39
Location : Calibrating something in ATL, GA, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed May 01, 2013 11:51 pm

DSharrah wrote:I think to call the Catalyst (aka Reaperbieber the Starbinger) a "dumb" AI...takes away from his ability to be even a fraction of a good villian. His "intelligence" and ability to be deceptive in his attempt to convince Shep to do what he desires (ie his ability to indoctrinate Shep) - is what makes him a believable foe.

QFT

_________________
"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson
avatar
DoomsdayDevice
Being of Light

Posts : 2960
Join date : 2013-01-08
Location : Probing Uranus

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Raistlin Majere on Thu May 02, 2013 1:28 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
DSharrah wrote:I think to call the Catalyst (aka Reaperbieber the Starbinger) a "dumb" AI...takes away from his ability to be even a fraction of a good villian. His "intelligence" and ability to be deceptive in his attempt to convince Shep to do what he desires (ie his ability to indoctrinate Shep) - is what makes him a believable foe.

QFT

Gotta agree. The Reapers from ME1 and ME2 gave of a feeling of superiority and though arrogant it was also clear they were ruthlessly cunning with several back up plans for their master piece.

In ME3 much of that seems lost, especially near the end, if you take it literally. The Reapers seem to make stupid decisions upon stupid decision (seriously wtf Is Harbinger doing in the EC) bringing the terrifying image build up about them crashing down.

We don't need their leader to suddenly be a AI whose flaws and not its ruthless intelligence is what makes it dangerous.

_________________
Heroes get Remembered, but Legends never Die.
avatar
Raistlin Majere
N7

Posts : 1089
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 25
Location : Denmark

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Eryri on Thu May 02, 2013 6:09 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
DSharrah wrote:I think to call the Catalyst (aka Reaperbieber the Starbinger) a "dumb" AI...takes away from his ability to be even a fraction of a good villian. His "intelligence" and ability to be deceptive in his attempt to convince Shep to do what he desires (ie his ability to indoctrinate Shep) - is what makes him a believable foe.

QFT

Gotta agree. The Reapers from ME1 and ME2 gave of a feeling of superiority and though arrogant it was also clear they were ruthlessly cunning with several back up plans for their master piece.

In ME3 much of that seems lost, especially near the end, if you take it literally. The Reapers seem to make stupid decisions upon stupid decision (seriously wtf Is Harbinger doing in the EC) bringing the terrifying image build up about them crashing down.

We don't need their leader to suddenly be a AI whose flaws and not its ruthless intelligence is what makes it dangerous.

Agreed on all points. The Reapers and the Leviathans (and returning to real life for a minute, their writers) loose all of my respect in ME3. They become objects of pity rather than awe. The only thing that would restore their status as "Magnificent Bastards" would be the revelation that the Crucible is a trap. I'd be delighted by that. I want villains I can "love to hate", rather than hold in a mixture of contempt and pity.
avatar
Eryri
Phantom

Posts : 1178
Join date : 2013-01-07
Age : 39
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu May 02, 2013 7:08 pm

Eryri wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
DSharrah wrote:I think to call the Catalyst (aka Reaperbieber the Starbinger) a "dumb" AI...takes away from his ability to be even a fraction of a good villian. His "intelligence" and ability to be deceptive in his attempt to convince Shep to do what he desires (ie his ability to indoctrinate Shep) - is what makes him a believable foe.

QFT

Gotta agree. The Reapers from ME1 and ME2 gave of a feeling of superiority and though arrogant it was also clear they were ruthlessly cunning with several back up plans for their master piece.

In ME3 much of that seems lost, especially near the end, if you take it literally. The Reapers seem to make stupid decisions upon stupid decision (seriously wtf Is Harbinger doing in the EC) bringing the terrifying image build up about them crashing down.

We don't need their leader to suddenly be a AI whose flaws and not its ruthless intelligence is what makes it dangerous.

Agreed on all points. The Reapers and the Leviathans (and returning to real life for a minute, their writers) loose all of my respect in ME3. They become objects of pity rather than awe. The only thing that would restore their status as "Magnificent Bastards" would be the revelation that the Crucible is a trap. I'd be delighted by that. I want villains I can "love to hate", rather than hold in a mixture of contempt and pity.
The only type of villians where what Bioware was aiming to do are very deep, three dimensional villians and the Reapers aren't that. They are overall a very shallow, two dimensional villians.
avatar
Hanako Ikezawa
The Thorian

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2013-01-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Raistlin Majere on Thu May 02, 2013 7:57 pm

Selim Bradley wrote:
Eryri wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
DSharrah wrote:I think to call the Catalyst (aka Reaperbieber the Starbinger) a "dumb" AI...takes away from his ability to be even a fraction of a good villian. His "intelligence" and ability to be deceptive in his attempt to convince Shep to do what he desires (ie his ability to indoctrinate Shep) - is what makes him a believable foe.

QFT

Gotta agree. The Reapers from ME1 and ME2 gave of a feeling of superiority and though arrogant it was also clear they were ruthlessly cunning with several back up plans for their master piece.

In ME3 much of that seems lost, especially near the end, if you take it literally. The Reapers seem to make stupid decisions upon stupid decision (seriously wtf Is Harbinger doing in the EC) bringing the terrifying image build up about them crashing down.

We don't need their leader to suddenly be a AI whose flaws and not its ruthless intelligence is what makes it dangerous.

Agreed on all points. The Reapers and the Leviathans (and returning to real life for a minute, their writers) loose all of my respect in ME3. They become objects of pity rather than awe. The only thing that would restore their status as "Magnificent Bastards" would be the revelation that the Crucible is a trap. I'd be delighted by that. I want villains I can "love to hate", rather than hold in a mixture of contempt and pity.
The only type of villians where what Bioware was aiming to do are very deep, three dimensional villians and the Reapers aren't that. They are overall a very shallow, two dimensional villians.

No, but not every villain needs a tragic back story or even a "noble" goal and the Reapers were never set up to have either. They were basically Chtulus in Space from day one, unstoppable and mind-bending, beyond our comprehension to quote themselves. They held onto this for two games, the second game giving us a face among them to focus on, a villain to identify among the unstoppable horde approaching.

And that was perfect for me, because that is what the games build towards, not this bullshit "organics vs machines" excuse. EDI gave the perfect motivation for the Reapers, one befitting them completely. The cycle is their reproduction cycle, nothing more, nothing less.

The Reapers were not interesting because they provided any dilemma or understandable motivation, they were interesting because they were mysterious, calculating and seemingly unstoppable. It was not about brokering peace or about saving everything, because we knew that was impossible, it was question of how much we would have to sacrifice to stop them.

And if they pulled of the Indoctrination in the end, fooled the player himself into siding with them then two dimensional or not they will hands down have become the most dangerous and incredible villain in video game.

_________________
Heroes get Remembered, but Legends never Die.
avatar
Raistlin Majere
N7

Posts : 1089
Join date : 2013-01-08
Age : 25
Location : Denmark

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Restrider on Thu May 02, 2013 9:45 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:

No, but not every villain needs a tragic back story or even a "noble" goal and the Reapers were never set up to have either. They were basically Chtulus in Space from day one, unstoppable and mind-bending, beyond our comprehension to quote themselves. They held onto this for two games, the second game giving us a face among them to focus on, a villain to identify among the unstoppable horde approaching.

And that was perfect for me, because that is what the games build towards, not this bullshit "organics vs machines" excuse. EDI gave the perfect motivation for the Reapers, one befitting them completely. The cycle is their reproduction cycle, nothing more, nothing less.

The Reapers were not interesting because they provided any dilemma or understandable motivation, they were interesting because they were mysterious, calculating and seemingly unstoppable. It was not about brokering peace or about saving everything, because we knew that was impossible, it was question of how much we would have to sacrifice to stop them.

And if they pulled of the Indoctrination in the end, fooled the player himself into siding with them then two dimensional or not they will hands down have become the most dangerous and incredible villain in video game.
Exactly. The cycles being just a form of reproduction suits the style of the Reapers (at least in ME1/2 and most of ME3). Their hubris and disdain for organics hinted that they did not care about organics and not that they are some form of misunderstood entities (we already had that trope with the krogans and geth). After all, the Reapers treat organics like some form of cattle to make use of at best and vermin that is just an annoyance at worst (to quote Harbinger).

All in all, the trilogy already provides us a lot with conflicts with grey areas, where both sides actually have arguments and in the most developed "side"-conflicts you are even able to choose how to resolve them either by siding with one side or the other (or both in case of the geth/quarian conflict).
The figure of TIM could've been the tragic villian (even more so than in what we got), whose goal was to save humanity, but by using the methods he chose lost his own humanity.

There was just no need to use the "tragic, misunderstood villian trope" again! And especially not on the Reapers.
avatar
Restrider
Blood Pack Warrior

Posts : 934
Join date : 2013-01-07
Location : Democratic Republic of New Germany - Phase 1 Space

Back to top Go down

Re: Catalyst as a "Dumb AI"

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum