I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

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I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:40 pm

Ok bear with me right here.  This one I think might just solve the whole red herring scenario.

The red Herring is the Citadel.

Now bear with me for a moment and i'll tell you how i come to this conclusion.

1.  Cronos Station (more about which later)
2.  The relays always get destroyed.
3.  The Citadel always gets destroyed.
4.  Choice is an illusion.

OK right - to the juice.  

My theory is that the Intelligence created by Leviathan exists within cronos station. (or maybe even right in front of it).  The reaper is being reconstructed within cronos station.  Shepard and co go off to cronos and then leave it untouched as they head for earth.  They head for earth because they believe the Citadel is actually the Catalyst.

But is it?  No it is  not.  RED HERRING!!!!!

The Catalyst is a lie.  As is everything that happens on the citadel.  

Why you may ask.  Well i'll tell you (bear with me here)

The Intelligence lives in cronos station.
When Shepard chooses (whatever) the Citadel is destroyed as are the relays.
After this happens the Reapers 'sweep up'.
(note the citadel and relays are destroyed, but cronos station is not)

It should be noted that the reaper is still at cronos station.  Now it may be incomplete but that really is not important in the greater scheme of things.  It's not like the intelligence is in a hurry to finish it.

It had TIM gather together the pieces of the Human Reaper and bring it to where it could be protected.  cronos station.

Then when the cycle was over, it would be rebuilt and inserted into a new reaper shell.

I'll come back to the old RGB thing now as well.

the only way you can see the full picture is if all 3 are still active.  Therefore the correct choice (and I know that destroyers will hate me for this but bear with me) is not to choose at all and defy the intelligence. (starjar is just a projection.  He doesnt really exist on the citadel at all.  He is on cronos station)

To be able to see a clear picture we need the citadel not to fire.  If it fires we are doomed.

The cutscenes are the greatest 'lie'.  an ilusion to pacify us into thinking we made the correct choice.

cronos sends a signal to the Citadel which controls the mass relay network.  Sovereign wasn't destroyed.  He's in cronos. (or in front of it)

Does this rule out IT? No. If anything it strengthens it - as i've said....why go to the citadel at all? Why go to earth?

The intelligence still needs someone to throw the switch.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by ivenoidea on Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:34 pm

Originally the "red corridor" we see on the Citadel was supposed to be on Chronos. (See art book) so I guess that sorta could fit in somehow.
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:52 pm

had to make a note of this idea before it vanished from my mind.


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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Ghost Of Kesak11 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:00 pm

interesting idea. It seems plausible that this happened although I think I still will choose destroy. Hope these questions will be answered in ME4/ME:N

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:56 pm

i'm just looking for a way of the literal mass effect 3 experience to make any sense whatsoever that can unite both ITers and non ITers. Sure I think IT is a pivotal part of the final push, but i've always thought that in a way there was even more going on. i guess Mass Effect 4 will answer the question one way or another as to what the hell happened exactly.

always looking for answers.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by demersel on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:27 pm

It might be the missing piece of the puzzle.
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by demersel on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Ok, here's a crazy spin on your idea. What if the intelligence - is the dying star that cronos orbits?
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Lombus on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:07 pm

It does make perfect sense, I for one can't await for ME4: we need answers, concrete and conclusive ones.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:53 pm

demersel wrote:Ok, here's a crazy spin on your idea. What if the intelligence - is the dying star that cronos orbits?
i had hoped thats what i was getting at. cronos station being a focal point for it - allowing it access to the relay network. like a huge eye staring into cronos.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:59 pm

the intelligence is the star - and that explains why it changes colour from blue to red.

oh dear god what have i done? affraid 

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by demersel on Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:29 am

You've started to think about it creativly and out of the box - welcome to the club of shunned at crazies. Very Happy 
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Terramine on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:56 am

dork wrote:the intelligence is the star - and that explains why it changes colour from blue to red.

oh dear god what have i done?  affraid 
Actually as far as I remember it starts out looking like this:



Then if you play Paragon, it turns into this:


Or if you play Renegade, it turns into this:


Not blue into red. But anywho, my main thing is... why does the intelligence make said change?

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by demersel on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:12 am

IronicParticle wrote:
dork wrote:the intelligence is the star - and that explains why it changes colour from blue to red.

oh dear god what have i done?  affraid 
Actually as far as I remember it starts out looking like this:



Then if you play Paragon, it turns into this:


Or if you play Renegade, it turns into this:


Not blue into red. But anywho, my main thing is... why does the intelligence make said change?

What makes you think that it is the SAME star?

Let us suppose for a moment there that the whole setting is not entirely real i na sense that it is not and actual place, with an actual solid object (star)

then we get this -
- when the illusive man is facing us - his background is red. (the huge red spot behind him)
- when the illusive man man is not facing us his background is blue (the huge blue spot in front of him)
so here comes our assumption - we assume that it is not so much the illusive man changes his position, but it is we- the observer and his position stays the same - basicly he has a blue spot in front of him and a red spot behind him.
That is known as doppler effect - mass effect makes apoint to show us that whenever normady makes a jump - all the light in front of it becomes a hige spot of blue, all the light behind it becomes a huge spot of red.
Like so -


What i think this means and represens - the abstacticy of the place - this just another example that the illusive man's office that we see all though out the mass effect 2, as opposed to mass effect 3, is not an actual place, but rather an abstruct place, - it is his office - it is his place as he sees it and who uses it to communicate with others. We know one other example that illustrates how it might work - the conversation with the leviathan in the DLC -
when you face it - you are brougght into an obstact place meant to help you communicate with the entity that has a whole different percpective on things - to make surrounding, and elements familiar to you - "your memories give voice to your thoughts"

the conversation you're having is like this -


While what actually is happening is this -


As you can see - the choice of surroundings in the "mental translation space" - is to represent how the entity actually feels and where it is - at the bottom of the ocean - and you can clearly feel it in the set up of the actual surraundings as the entity percives them.

So...

That begs a questions -
1 - how is illusive man capable of doing the same thing as leviathan does?
2 - why does he see himslef as observing the dying star?

The answer to the first is - that perhaps the illusive man is not entirely like we see and think of him and he somehow has that exact power in addition to a very long list of his other unexplained abuilities, like all knowing, and being able to aqcuire un unlimited wealth in a relativly limited timeframe.

The answer to the second - maybe it is because this is a familiar setting for him - some place that he is accoustomed to think himself being at, or maybe where he actually is?


Who do we know that kinda fits both of those?





Last edited by demersel on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Terramine on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:20 am

demersel wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:*snip all my BS*

What makes you think that it is the SAME star?

Let us suppose for a moment there that the whole setting is not entirely real i na sense that it is not and actual place, with an actual solid object (star)

then we get this -
- when the illusive man is facing us - his background is red. (the huge red spot behind him)
- when the illusive man man is not facing us his background is blue (the huge blue spot in front of him)
so here comes our assumption - we assume that it is not so much the illusive man changes his position, but it is we- the observer and his position stays the same - basicly he has a blue spot in front of him and a red spot behind him.
That is known as doppler effect - mass effect makes apoint to show us that whenever normady makes a jump - all the light in front of it becomes a hige spot of blue, all the light behind it becomes a huge spot of red.
Like so -
Um well then why don't we see the light doing such? Why isn't his front being lit up by blue light and his black being lit up by red light?

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by demersel on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:36 am

added things to my post.

As for the light not lighting up the illusive man - several reasons
1 - it doesn't actually do that at all
2 - the whole scene is more metaphorical - it represents travel - in tha paragon version - it represents illusive man dgoing away from us, in the renegade - it represents illusive man coming closer to us - both in the thematic sense. when we choose paragon - we are in conflict with illusive man and our ways part, in renegade - we embrace his point of view and our goals become more of the same. we sort of embrace it, becoming more like him - he is coming towards us.
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:01 pm

question. who says it's a star? I kinda hinted that it might not be, but just to make it a bit clearer i dont think it's a star at all. stars do not change colour.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Rankincountry on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:18 pm

I always thought the "star" was such a huge, in-your-face image in ME2 and ME3 that it must be something more than simply reflecting back the ME2 ending choice at the player. But I could never figure it out. Right or wrong, I love @Dork's hypothesis here.

We know from Leviathan that there are beings capable of projecting completely illusory worlds directly into the minds of those they communicate with, and we also have the admission by Bioware that there are things in the game that are symbolic rather than literal events. So, I'd say that anything from Cronos onwards is basically suspect (as well as Citadel).

As a PS, if we're thinking about colours and symbolism, Destroy is red, and so is the herring.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Terramine on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:55 am

Rankincountry wrote:I always thought the "star" was such a huge, in-your-face image in ME2 and ME3 that it must be something more than simply reflecting back the ME2 ending choice at the player. But I could never figure it out. Right or wrong, I love @Dork's hypothesis here.

We know from Leviathan that there are beings capable of projecting completely illusory worlds directly into the minds of those they communicate with, and we also have the admission by Bioware that there are things in the game that are symbolic rather than literal events. So, I'd say that anything from Cronos onwards is basically suspect (as well as Citadel).

As a PS, if we're thinking about colours and symbolism, Destroy is red, and so is the herring.
Destroy being the Red Herring is something I've been hinting at forever. Everybody flocks to it because it has "destroy the reapers" under it's banner. HOW CAN YOU FOLLOW SOMETHING SO BLINDLY? Blind faith isn't something to be doing in a mind battle with the collective conscious of ALL REAPERS, MACHINES VASTLY BEYOND YOUR INTELLIGENCE. If you want to win this you're going to have to think things through. Refuse is also a "destroy the Reapers ending."

Just think for a second.. IF Destroy was a trick, Destroy supporters fell for it so easily. I found an aged old post from Dwailing back on the BSN where he made a good point that in general Refuse is painted as the worst option. It is logically the hardest to choose, it really is. Synthesis being the easiest, control being the second easiest and Destroy being the second most difficult. Because you have to make a pretty bad sacrifice. But Refuse is even more difficult.. because you have to let go of everything BUT the most important thing. You have to give up your squadmates, give up your species, give everything up except for your humanity. That is what you keep in exchange... It really is difficult, you have to put what makes you human above all else. Meanwhile, Destroy requires compromise with the Reapers. If you noticed, the more you compromise the easier the choice is. Refuse being the hardest choice, and it lacks any and all compromise with the Reapers.

But putting refuse aside... Destroy IS a Red Herring. It's being presented by the enemy, this is so out of the blue I don't even. It makes even less sense than Synthesis, if anything Synthesis is logical objectivity in comparison BWAHAHAHA! Also the reason for doing it? The justification? The necessity? It's the only way... according to ReaperBieber it is the only way to Destroy them. That's a lie, no it isn't the only way, in fact fuck it... it's not even a way AT ALL. It's all plain as day. It's a Red Herring because IT CANNOT POSSIBLY WORK. That's right, it's impossible... why? Because it's being presented by the Reaper. No joke, it requires his machine and allegedly the Reapers consent to it. THERE IS NO COOPERATION WITH THE REAPERS. It's impossible, Destroy is a red herring because it cannot possibly be a way to destroy the Reapers. It's not a way to destroy them, despite claiming to be such. Ergo it is a Red Herring.

You cannot say ReaperBieber isn't the one presenting it. Bullshit, both the Crucible and the Citadel is his. The Crucible isn't ours, this has been talked about enough for the conclusion to be pretty dang clear... the Reapers are the ones who planted the Crucible. Therefore, Destroy is theirs.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Terramine on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:07 am

dork wrote:question.  who says it's a star?  I kinda hinted that it might not be, but just to make it a bit clearer i dont think it's a star at all.  stars do not change colour.
Um... but we see what it looks like. It looks exactly like a star to me... but if you want to say it's not literal, then the color thing is moot. It's still a star in terms of what we see, and it changes colors for a reason whatever reason that is. Symbolic star changing color or real star changing color, what does it matter. But you know... it could be a Dyson sphere >.>
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:13 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
dork wrote:question.  who says it's a star?  I kinda hinted that it might not be, but just to make it a bit clearer i dont think it's a star at all.  stars do not change colour.
Um... but we see what it looks like. It looks exactly like a star to me... but if you want to say it's not literal, then the color thing is moot. It's still a star in terms of what we see, and it changes colors for a reason whatever reason that is. Symbolic star changing color or real star changing color, what does it matter. But you know... it could be a Dyson sphere >.>

nah it's a star. I was actually wondering if it had some overt symbolism. I mean it changes colour - thats a bit bizarre. it's very old (so are the reapers), it has no planetary system to speak of. It has cronos station in orbit around it, who's viewing area is constantly facing it. It looks like a huge eye watching. Does it speak to TIM? Anadius. A red giant that can change colour to blue when it suits? Sommat aint right here.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Terramine on Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:33 am

dork wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
dork wrote:question.  who says it's a star?  I kinda hinted that it might not be, but just to make it a bit clearer i dont think it's a star at all.  stars do not change colour.
Um... but we see what it looks like. It looks exactly like a star to me... but if you want to say it's not literal, then the color thing is moot. It's still a star in terms of what we see, and it changes colors for a reason whatever reason that is. Symbolic star changing color or real star changing color, what does it matter. But you know... it could be a Dyson sphere >.>

nah it's a star.  I was actually wondering if it had some overt symbolism.  I mean it changes colour - thats a bit bizarre.  it's very old (so are the reapers), it has no planetary system to speak of.  It has cronos station in orbit around it, who's viewing area is constantly facing it.  It looks like a huge eye watching.  Does it speak to TIM?  Anadius.  A red  giant that can change colour to blue when it suits?  Sommat aint right here.
I agree completely, was just trying to get things clarified and whatnot. I definitely think something could be up with that star.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:42 am

oh and fwiw i played the 'refuse' ending last night - after doin all the dlc, and takin into account everything said throughout by various characters along the way.

For the first time (i've done it before btw but kinda rushed it last time) since i first played mass effect 3 did the ending make complete sense.

How do you break the cycle? Someone has to be prepared to say 'enough is enough'.

Do you choose destroy? Tempting. My no 1 choice. The choice which is there even if you have low war assets. The aim of the game in many ways. However i d think you need to take a step back here. It's a choice given to you by the very intelligence you are trying to destroy, and who is trying to destroy you.

Control. NO!!! The reapers do over sanctuary because they dont want to be controlled, and yet you are meant to believe starjar will let you control the reapers?

Synthesis? Fk off. This is what the reapers want you to choose.

3 choices. They all lead to oblivion.

Turn the choices on their heads for a minute. Maybe you are choosing for the reapers what they want to happen to the races of this cycle.

Destroy - the races are destroyed
Control - the races are enslaved.
Synthesis - o.o deffo not good.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Terramine on Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:44 am

dork wrote:oh and fwiw i played the 'refuse' ending last night - after doin all the dlc, and takin into account everything said throughout by various characters along the way.

For the first time (i've done it before btw but kinda rushed it last time) since i first played mass effect 3 did the ending make complete sense.

How do you break the cycle?  Someone has to be prepared to say 'enough is enough'.

Do you choose destroy?  Tempting.  My no 1 choice.  The choice which is there even if you have low war assets.  The aim of the game in many ways. However i d think you need to take a step back here.  It's a choice given to you  by the very intelligence you are trying to destroy, and who is trying to destroy you.  

Control.  NO!!!  The reapers do over sanctuary because they dont want to be controlled, and yet you are meant to believe starjar will let you control the reapers?

Synthesis?  Fk off.  This is what the reapers want you to choose.

3 choices.  They all lead to oblivion.

Turn the choices on their heads for a minute.  Maybe you are choosing for the reapers what they want to happen to the races of this cycle.

Destroy - the races are destroyed
Control - the races are enslaved.
Synthesis - o.o  deffo not good.
That would be an interesting turn of events. But even if that wasn't the case, if we go with classical indoctrination where this stuff is not real and it decides Shepard's fate. The slightest compromise with the Reapers, to me it would seem that it results in indoctrination. Synthesis is the option of least resistance, Destroy is the smallest compromise. Possibly resulting in a degraded quality of indoctrination or something, maybe the mental decay happens faster or they have better chances of questioning what the Reapers tell them. Meanwhile no compromise at all would prevent you from getting indoctrinated... forever. Refuse is the hardest choice to make, pulls on the most emotional strings. Players themselves tend to have to think suspiciously and skeptically for them to choose it, like you did.

It is the choice to keep your humanity no matter what, put it above all else... from you squadmates, to your family and loved ones, and everyone else in the Galaxy. Due to the fact that this isn't real, you won't actually have to make that trade off. But point is, you have to be TRULY WILLING to do that to make this choice in it's purest form. I personally believe Shepard would choose this because he/she strictly said he/she wouldn't sacrifice his/her humanity no matter what, that humanity's greatest gift is finding a way no matter what. It might sound twisted, but Shepard knows his/her squadmates also wouldn't sacrifice their humanity especially if HE/SHE thought it was the right thing to do. If they were there they'd say "Screw this kid, we'll find another way because that's what we do best!". I bet the whole Galaxy would rally under a speech from Shepard about how the true way is to be Human, which is more than a species.

That's why it's not a hard choice for me. Because I see it through the lens of Shepard and the squadmates I know so well. If you don't pay attention to what kind of people they really are or/and you are blinded by your attachment to the characters, you're bound to think it's just plain wrong. But by that point it's an irrational attachment that makes you avoid it. It's the hardest choice to make if you aren't thinking things through. That's what the Reapers are preying on during the whole thing, they are relying on gullibility.

By saying the strictest no possible to compromise with the Reapers, you keep your humanity and find the REAL way to destroy them. Logically Destroy cannot work, it is impossible in it's premise. Because compromising with the Reapers would NEVER work, to think otherwise is exactly the gullibility needed to succeed in indoctrinating you. You just need to think for a second "I'd compromise with the Reapers to achieve my goal." and you are indoctrinated.

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Terramine
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:32 pm

they should have given the option to kick starjar out of an airlock.


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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Terramine on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:59 am

dork wrote:they should have given the option to kick starjar out of an airlock.

Meh, the serious equivalent would probably be to kick Harbinger's ass. They are probably one in the same, but who knows for sure. Anyways back to that star, I'm still wondering what it could mean. Dem had some interesting insights with the Doppler effect or whatever. But it is an interesting fact to note, that the star looks normal when Joker goes to talk to TIM because Shepard is dead.

Maybe it was the first sign of Shepard hallucinating from indoctrination...

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

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