I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:06 am

simple science. stars do not change colour (and remain the same size)

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Terramine on Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:48 pm

dork wrote:simple science.  stars do not change colour (and remain the same size)
BTW I think the red herring is in fact the crucible... I think the reason they used RED is for destroy, but because destroy is the pinnacle of exactly how the crucible is a red herring. Because needing the Reapers to destroy the Reapers, is a red herring. Talk about flipping it on it's head, if you flip classic indoctrination theory where all the lies and tactics being to convince you of synthesis... you instead get a situation where it's a massive reverse psychology. It's a mind battle equipped with mind tricks, the logic Destroyers use can sound a bit like grasping straws. Which is what TIM and Saren sound like when they shoot their brains out, they were grasping as many straws as possible till they were forced to accept that they were wrong and were in fact indoctrinated.

Which reminds me... regardless of mine or anyone Else's opinions, the biggest problem the IT faced, was the hubris... if we found out a good bit of what was going on we couldn't possibly be indoctrinated right? WRONG. It was always possible we all could've been completely wrong. So one of the most interesting things you have to wonder... is among the ITers, whom is or isn't indoctrinated? Acknowledging the mind battle is only half the battle, you still have to resist indoctrination.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Terramine on Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:09 pm

But the red herring honestly could've just been the fracking literal herrings in the Citadel DLC. It could've been a hint at the Citadel DLC coming up.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:14 am

IronicParticle wrote:But the red herring honestly could've just been the fracking literal herrings in the Citadel DLC. It could've been a hint at the Citadel DLC coming up.
more likely that the whole thing was a red herring to be fair tho.



we've been distracted from whats really going on i think.

Wake up Neo.


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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Rankincountry on Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:16 am

Kesak11 wrote:interesting idea. It seems plausible that this happened although I think I still will choose destroy. Hope these questions will be answered in ME4/ME:N

dork wrote:oh and fwiw i played the 'refuse' ending last night - after doin all the dlc, and takin into account everything said throughout by various characters along the way.

For the first time (i've done it before btw but kinda rushed it last time) since i first played mass effect 3 did the ending make complete sense.

How do you break the cycle?  Someone has to be prepared to say 'enough is enough'.
...
<Polite snip to avoid giant quote syndrome>

Since the EC came out, I'm pretty sure that I'd be in the Refuse camp (though tempted by Destroy) if only it wasn't for the breath scene. Given that the breath scene happens in high EMS Destroy, this must be Bioware trying to tell us something (possibly "play a different game with a better ending" Cool ). On the other hand, could the breath scene actually be a lead-in to a Shepard who chose unwisely waking up to some nightmarish scene of devastation? Or is Refuse a futile gesture of defiance, a last rage against the dying of the light? Is there significance in Refuse being added in the EC? Should I go to bed now?

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Rifneno on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:07 am

What the hell... Okay, first, no star is the intelligence. No star is anything but a star. Stars are unimaginably huge balls of nuclear hellfire. Do you know what survives inside nuclear hellfire? Nothing. Hell, heat-based weapons are the type of attacks that the Reapers are most vulnerable to. The central super-reaper is definitely not living inside a cosmic explosion.

The big star display at Cronos? It's a screen, not a window. The books tell you this. TIM puts up star pictures on it to set the mood when he's talking to someone. He also watches porn on it. That last one's not in the books but trust me, he does it. This is why the star changes color. Because it's just a frickin' display and TIM changed the picture. Blue stars are the hottest, and red stars are the coldest. Yes, that's weird, but what can I tell you? Science is a troll. My theory on why the red/blue star at the end of ME2 is simply that TIM is red hot in the pissed off sense so he put up a picture of the hottest thing in the galaxy: a blue supergiant (well, the hottest thing he hasn't put his thanix cannon into).

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Terramine on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:18 am

Rifneno wrote:What the hell... Okay, first, no star is the intelligence. No star is anything but a star. Stars are unimaginably huge balls of nuclear hellfire. Do you know what survives inside nuclear hellfire? Nothing. Hell, heat-based weapons are the type of attacks that the Reapers are most vulnerable to. The central super-reaper is definitely not living inside a cosmic explosion.

The big star display at Cronos? It's a screen, not a window. The books tell you this. TIM puts up star pictures on it to set the mood when he's talking to someone. He also watches porn on it. That last one's not in the books but trust me, he does it. This is why the star changes color. Because it's just a frickin' display and TIM changed the picture. Blue stars are the hottest, and red stars are the coldest. Yes, that's weird, but what can I tell you? Science is a troll. My theory on why the red/blue star at the end of ME2 is simply that TIM is red hot in the pissed off sense so he put up a picture of the hottest thing in the galaxy: a blue supergiant (well, the hottest thing he hasn't put his thanix cannon into).
Pfft... I'd watch porn on that thing, and I'm sure Shepard was ever so slightly tempted even though the galaxy was in danger LOLOLOL

Now more seriously, what about the fact that the star is normal if Joker is the one to talk to TIM? Shouldn't the star be red? It's literally based on renegade or paragon combined with whether or not Shepard is there. So while you've probably just debunked the intelligence idea, I still think your explanation doesn't fit with me.


Last edited by IronicParticle on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:18 am

Rifneno wrote:What the hell... Okay, first, no star is the intelligence. No star is anything but a star. Stars are unimaginably huge balls of nuclear hellfire. Do you know what survives inside nuclear hellfire? Nothing. Hell, heat-based weapons are the type of attacks that the Reapers are most vulnerable to. The central super-reaper is definitely not living inside a cosmic explosion.

The big star display at Cronos? It's a screen, not a window. The books tell you this. TIM puts up star pictures on it to set the mood when he's talking to someone. He also watches porn on it. That last one's not in the books but trust me, he does it. This is why the star changes color. Because it's just a frickin' display and TIM changed the picture. Blue stars are the hottest, and red stars are the coldest. Yes, that's weird, but what can I tell you? Science is a troll. My theory on why the red/blue star at the end of ME2 is simply that TIM is red hot in the pissed off sense so he put up a picture of the hottest thing in the galaxy: a blue supergiant (well, the hottest thing he hasn't put his thanix cannon into).



you mean like that huge star in Dr Who wasn't intelligent?

British Ninja 

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by RavenEyry on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:46 am

dork wrote:
you mean like that huge star in Dr Who wasn't intelligent?
Mass Effect and Doctor Who are seperate fictional universes that work on different sets of rules.
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:57 am

RavenEyry wrote:
dork wrote:
you mean like that huge star in Dr Who wasn't intelligent?
Mass Effect and Doctor Who are seperate fictional universes that work on different sets of rules.
hahahahahaha

Rofl 

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by demersel on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:45 am

Riferno -  you sound exactly like that -


even in mass effect science is very vague on what can intelligent life be like.
In mass effect 1 you are shocked constanlty with new concepts of highly organized intelligent life and what it can be - wow! a huge plant is self-aware and intelligent and is a fully sentient being!
Wow! a race of of bugs are not just mindless incect monsters but are very intelligent beings that are fully capable of interstallar travel!

Wow! a bad ass huge flagship is not a a ship at all - it is in fact a living thinking being!

Wow! the geths are not just some argessive robots - in fact the geths are just pure line of code and the robots are just platforms - and those line of codes when there is enough of them they gain conciousness, selfawerness and intelligence!

As leviathan said itself - you have no conception of a galaxy that bends to your will - they were able to move planets with their mind - woh says they could not have reorganized elements in a star so that they start being a huge hardware - a huge eternal computing machine?

Who is to say that there aren't any forms of life that we have not yet encountered simply because we can't imagine anything exisitng in those conditions? and we could not possible have any contact with them due to our own limitations?
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by CSSteele on Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:33 am

I don't think the star is the intelligence, however, I do wonder if that planet with the giant spheres that were detected in it but then sunk into the lower atmosphere could be. There are theories, the planetary entry says, that the planet is a giant super-computer.
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:09 am

simple answer is no speculation is wrong because thats all they have left us with.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Hrothdane on Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:07 pm

demersel wrote:Riferno -  you sound exactly like that -


even in mass effect science is very vague on what can intelligent life be like.
In mass effect 1 you are shocked constanlty with new concepts of highly organized intelligent life and what it can be - wow! a huge plant is self-aware and intelligent and is a fully sentient being!
Wow! a race of of bugs are not just mindless incect monsters but are very intelligent beings that are fully capable of interstallar travel!

Wow! a bad ass huge flagship is not a a ship at all - it is in fact a living thinking being!

Wow! the geths are not just some argessive robots - in fact the geths are just pure line of code and the robots are just platforms - and those line of codes when there is enough of them they gain conciousness, selfawerness and intelligence!

As leviathan said itself - you have no conception of a galaxy that bends to your will - they were able to move planets with their mind - woh says they could not have reorganized elements in a star so that they start being a huge hardware - a huge eternal computing machine?

Who is to say that there aren't any forms of life that we have not yet encountered simply because we can't imagine anything exisitng in those conditions? and we could not possible have any contact with them due to our own limitations?



From a doylist point of view, literally anything is possible as long as the author wills it. Conclusions are inferred from available information on the author and his/her circumstances. Virtually any interpretation is technically valid when you take that point of view if you do not have access to detailed information on the author(s), though the probability of any reasonable truth value is slim. I could make a theory that John Madden will be the protagonist of the next Mass Effect game. I could even through out a couple loosely related facts to support it (both franchises are owned by EA, Mass Effect already has 1 character based on a real person, and EA's marketing department might be evil enough to do it). You can't prove I'm wrong, but I can't prove I'm right either.

From a watsonian point of view, the only things that are possible are those that are internally consistent with the work's rules. Conclusions are inferred from available information on the work's canon and universe. I can't argue that James Bond is a time lord from a watsonian perspective.

If you just want to go "hey, wouldn't it be cool if..." and have some imaginative fun with it, that's fine. Just don't act like you are trying to interpret something and that the rest of us should take it totally seriously. The IT is supposed to be a watsonian theory, which is what brought the people here together. A lot of people expect all theorizing here to conform to that standard.

Maybe we should have a section of the site devoted to crazy off-the-wall wild speculation, similar to the wild mass guessing pages on tvtropes. I would personally enjoy that myself, and I think a lot more people would be open to ideas in such a location.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Rankincountry on Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:13 pm

Hrothdane wrote:
Maybe we should have a section of the site devoted to crazy off-the-wall wild speculation, similar to the wild mass guessing pages on tvtropes. I would personally enjoy that myself, and I think a lot more people would be open to ideas in such a location.

Yes, we should. That way those of us who enjoy coming up with bonkers ideas and testing them to destruction have our own playground Very Happy . It's a bit like brainstorming - come up with ideas with no limits, then discard the obvious rubbish. Then have a proper look at what's left to see if any of it stands closer examination. And if we're left with nothing, at least we had some fun with it.

So, nearly 18 months and I'm still obviously not over ME3. Is this because I should get out more, or is it actually some sort of twisted success by Bioware?

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:18 pm

i love the way everyone treats this game series as if it is scientifically accurate.

Well peeps it is not.  Not by a long shot.

Wild speculation is as relevant because it is a story.  A story with an ending which actually encourages wild speculation.  Otherwise why are you all here?

Remember this thread is actually discussing 'the red herring'.  You want to bring IT into it then fine, but as i've stated elsewhere IT is only a part of it, not the whole caboodle.

argue in chat if you want.

**edit**

actually the whole bonkers theory board sounds fun. British Ninja 

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Home run MF on Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:27 pm

CSSteele wrote:I don't think the star is the intelligence, however, I do wonder if that planet with the giant spheres that were detected in it but then sunk into the lower atmosphere could be. There are theories, the planetary entry says, that the planet is a giant super-computer.

If there is a giant super computer type of intelligence in the Mass Effect universe I vote for the black hole at the center of the galaxy, it's connected to the relays that provide information  and the accretion disk to provide it with energy plus it's a place non advanced species can't reach.

If someone has read Revelation Space which Mass Effect draws some inspiration from, this is not so far fetched (Shrouders/Cerberus/Inhibitors).

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:05 pm

Home run MF wrote:
CSSteele wrote:I don't think the star is the intelligence, however, I do wonder if that planet with the giant spheres that were detected in it but then sunk into the lower atmosphere could be. There are theories, the planetary entry says, that the planet is a giant super-computer.

If there is a giant super computer type of intelligence in the Mass Effect universe I vote for the black hole at the center of the galaxy, it's connected to the relays that provide information  and the accretion disk to provide it with energy plus it's a place non advanced species can't reach.

If someone has read Revelation Space which Mass Effect draws some inspiration from, this is not so far fetched (Shrouders/Cerberus/Inhibitors).
indeed. maybe we are thinking 'too small'. Also - the reapers coming from 'dark space'. well whats the darkest possible space? A Black Hole.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Rifneno on Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:20 am

*sigh*

Hrothdane wrote:From a watsonian point of view, the only things that are possible are those that are internally consistent with the work's rules. Conclusions are inferred from available information on the work's canon and universe. I can't argue that James Bond is a time lord from a watsonian perspective.

If you just want to go "hey, wouldn't it be cool if..." and have some imaginative fun with it, that's fine. Just don't act like you are trying to interpret something and that the rest of us should take it totally seriously. The IT is supposed to be a watsonian theory, which is what brought the people here together. A lot of people expect all theorizing here to conform to that standard.

Maybe we should have a section of the site devoted to crazy off-the-wall wild speculation, similar to the wild mass guessing pages on tvtropes. I would personally enjoy that myself, and I think a lot more people would be open to ideas in such a location.

QFT.  QFT so hard.  This undiluted idiocy just makes IT look bad.  People hear about IT but here us called a bunch of raving cultist lunatics, but give us a chance and come here to check out the theory.  Then they see drivel like this and figure "Wow, they weren't kidding, these people are nuttier than squirrel shit."  We need to keep things to the same standard that IT has always had.  If you want to rave madly about Noveria being made of ice cream, whatever, let's make a walled off section to quarantine the badness.

dork wrote:i love the way everyone treats this game series as if it is scientifically accurate.

Well peeps it is not.  Not by a long shot.

Yes, it is.  The fact that you're not educated enough to understand all the ways it tries to adhere to science whenever humanly possible (some degree of fictionalization is MANDATORY for sci-fi since there's no such thing as FTL and the like) is your failing, not Mass Effect's.

Wild speculation is as relevant because it is a story.  A story with an ending which actually encourages wild speculation.  Otherwise why are you all here?

We're here because of IT.  We're here because we want to understand what the story actually was.  Not to make deranged ravings that seem more like a setup to later use in an insanity plea than a realistic possibility of the story.

Home run MF wrote:If there is a giant super computer type of intelligence in the Mass Effect universe I vote for the black hole at the center of the galaxy, it's connected to the relays that provide information  and the accretion disk to provide it with energy plus it's a place non advanced species can't reach.

If someone has read Revelation Space which Mass Effect draws some inspiration from, this is not so far fetched (Shrouders/Cerberus/Inhibitors).

The supermassive black hole?  The object whose gravity is the reason the Milky Way exists?  Made by creatures from the Milky Way?  ...  I think there is a tiny flaw in this.

dork wrote:indeed.  maybe we are thinking 'too small'.  Also - the reapers coming from 'dark space'.  well whats the darkest possible space?  A Black Hole.



This is a picture of you being wrong.

Also, black holes are the darkest possible space?  Fun fact: black holes are the brightest things in the universe.  It's called the Hawking Radiation.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by RavenEyry on Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:49 am

Black holes are only dark in terms of visible light, just saying.
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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:01 am

Rifneno wrote:

dork wrote:i love the way everyone treats this game series as if it is scientifically accurate.

Well peeps it is not.  Not by a long shot.

Yes, it is. The fact that you're not educated enough to understand all the ways it tries to adhere to science whenever humanly possible (some degree of fictionalization is MANDATORY for sci-fi since there's no such thing as FTL and the like) is your failing, not Mass Effect's.

Mistakes I make em.  You? clown 

roflmao.  



yeah science.  mmm....




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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:28 pm

changing tact and trying to improve my intelligence sightly, I was reading this and thought 'wouldnt it be great if shepard was actually a sleeper program'? During his waking hours he was normal, but during his sleep hours he worked for TIM? That would explain the datapad in his hands after his second 'dream'.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:30 am

dork wrote:changing tact and trying to improve my intelligence sightly,  I was reading this and thought 'wouldnt it be great if shepard was actually a sleeper program'?  During his waking hours he was normal, but during his sleep hours he worked for TIM?  That would explain the datapad in his hands after his second 'dream'.

 I'd imagine EDI would detect that.


And if she didn't, or if she somehow allowed it to happen, that's a whole other can of worms I don't even want to get into -_-

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by Home run MF on Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:43 pm

Rifneno wrote:

Home run MF wrote:If there is a giant super computer type of intelligence in the Mass Effect universe I vote for the black hole at the center of the galaxy, it's connected to the relays that provide information  and the accretion disk to provide it with energy plus it's a place non advanced species can't reach.

If someone has read Revelation Space which Mass Effect draws some inspiration from, this is not so far fetched (Shrouders/Cerberus/Inhibitors).

The supermassive black hole?  The object whose gravity is the reason the Milky Way exists?  Made by creatures from the Milky Way?  ...  I think there is a tiny flaw in this.

You missed the part were I mentioned Revelation Space.

This is a fragment of the book were this is mentioned in case you're interested
Spoiler:

'We were in Hades, weren't we?' Sylveste felt his thoughts stampeding at the gates of expression, desperate to be vocalised before they evaporated.
'That thing isn't a neutron star at all. Maybe it was once, but it isn't now. It's been transformed; turned into a...'
'A computer,' Calvin said, finishing the sentence for him. 'That's what Hades is. A computer made out of nuclear matter, the mass of a star devoted to processing information, storing it. And this light is an aperture into it; a way to enter the computational matrix. I think for a moment we were
actually in it.'
But it was much stranger than that.
Once, a star with a mass thirty or forty times heavier than Earth's sun had reached the end of its nuclear-burning lifetime.
After several million years of profligate energy-expenditure the star had exploded as a supernova, and in its heart, tremendous gravitational pressure had smashed a lump of matter within its own Schwarzschild radius, until a black hole had been formed. The black hole was so named because nothing, not even light, could escape from its critical radius.
Matter and light could only fall into the black hole, thereby engorging it towards greater mass and greater attractive force; a vicious circle.
A culture arose that had use for such an object. They knew a technique whereby a black hole could be transformed into something far more exotic,
far more paradoxical.
First, they waited until the universe was considerably older than when the black hole had been formed; until the predominant stellar population consisted of very old red-dwarf stars, stars which were barely massive enough to ignite their own fusion fires. Next, they shepherded a dozen of these dwarves into an accretion disk around the black hole and slowly allowed the disk to feed the hole, raining starstuff onto its light-swallowing event horizon.

Anyway, what I was trying to say/speculate is that the Reapers might've been in the process of building a supercomputer to house themselves, like the Geth were, just in a larger scale.

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

Post by dorktainian on Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:06 am

which was my point on the star which stares at cronos station like a huge eye......whatever.  Ah, yes...

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Re: I just had this really freaky idea - in regards to the 'red herring'

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