The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Fur28 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:06 am

smokingotter wrote:@Andromidius Yeah religion is cool with me as long as people are respectful to each other it's all good in da hood ;)

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by smokingotter on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:28 am

Fur28 wrote:
smokingotter wrote:@Andromidius Yeah religion is cool with me as long as people are respectful to each other it's all good in da hood ;)

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We already have a God, all hail the stack-able cups!

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Fur28 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:48 am

smokingotter wrote:
Fur28 wrote:
smokingotter wrote:@Andromidius Yeah religion is cool with me as long as people are respectful to each other it's all good in da hood ;)

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I´m Top that means i am your GOD

We already have a God, all hail the stack-able cups!
Fine ¬¬
then i want to be a semi-god, sacrifice virgins and goats in my name! Now!


Last edited by Fur28 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by smokingotter on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:02 am

Sure why not Magic!



For you game of thrones fans. I would be ok with the last DLC you team up with the renegade reaper "Wine and Tits" to break Shepard free from indoctrination.

Shepard: "We can control the reapers!"
Garrus: "You're indoctrinated, we need to get you intoxicated! Drink more wine!"
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Restrider on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:39 am

clennon8 wrote:To be fair, some of the symbolism seems to conflict. Shepard = Christ. Shepard = anti-Christ. You can find both views represented in this thread. Still, on the whole I think there's a lot here that supports our premise. It's probably inevitable that there's going to be some garbling.

In my view, it is not conflicting in the end.
Your interpretation of Control/Synthesis depicts Shepard as some form of space Jesus (and I had this feeling shortly after completing the game and in the case of Synthesis even before choosing the end in my first playthrough [I did not choose Synthesis, because the whole messiah trope did feel too off for ME]) and Otter's interpretation depicts Shepard as the Anti-Christ, while he is fighting the Reapers, their agents and indoctrination.
IF your Shepard pulls a 180° in the decision chamber (choosing Synthesis/Control) he turns into a true believer (=indoctrinated).
If he chooses Destroy/Refuse, he still remains as the Anti-Christ.
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by RavenEyry on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:05 pm

Dammit Otter, stop blowing my mind with nearly every post! It can't be healthy.
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Maximus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:53 pm

Warning! This post might offend you, but it is NOT my intention. I simply want to show my point of view on religion and faith, nothing else. Won't try to convert you or offend you. If you feel offended anyway, then I'm deeply sorry. Ok, here it goes, probably gonna get killed or something, because of it! ;>

There is a HUGE difference between Religion and Belief/Faith. You see, God(s) is an Idea, good Idea which could make the world a better place if you understand it properly. God Idea represents everything that is good within Humanity. Love, Compassion etc. It's not some kind of Ultimate Being with power to create and shape whole Universe. God as an Idea is in your heart and mind, it's what makes you a good man or woman. I believe that every human is mostly "good" when born and thus, such Idea cannot be taught or told, it simply exists.

But that Idea can be destroyed, corrupted by falsehoods, lies, things that exploit our greatest weakness - fear. Yes, fear. Fear of death, fear of being alone, fear of evil. We want to avoid fear, but we simply can't. it's in our nature, so we're looking for a way to deal with our weakness. Then you hear about God and Religion. Wonderful future awaits those who embrace God. Eternal Life, Salvation, Life without Fear... a Paradise. All you have to do is believe in him, go to church and pay God's followers with "gold", cause they can save you? Sure, no problem, right? No! Suddenly it turns out, that you're evil, and you don't deserve to be with God, you are a Sinner and you have to repent for your Sins. More gold plx, and thou shall be saved. You become a Zeal, everything you do is out of Fear of being rejected by a God. So you start to see yourself as someone superior, and every person that refuses to believe in God is a Heretic, which must be "cleansed" in eternal fire or "converted". These Heretics are a threat to you, and your believe, they could destroy your path to salvation! What do you do? Dispose of them and then you have: Inquisitions, Crusades etc. Everything is for a God who loves you and who will save you. And you failed already, because you became an Evil Man. You sir, are INDOCTRINATED.

I think I made my point. Faith in God is good, but without religion, which warps that Idea and serves as a tool to enslave people and gain power from it, power that corrupts and destroys you and everyone else.

Same with Reapers. They are pure evil, they Indoctrinate and enslave entire nations because they believe that their goal is "good". "Salvation through Destruction"! They're Indoctrinated as well and we must do what is in our power to protect ourselves from them. That is why I choose Refuse. I won't follow the path they gave me, screw them coz I intend to win this war on my terms! Breath Scene my ass, it's a Red Herring if u ask me and I hope that we will have successful Refuse!

Again, I apologise if I offended someone. Not intended. But kill me if you have to! Or at least try if u think It's a "good" idea! ;>

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by RavenEyry on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:00 pm

The film Dogma is all about things like that. It was naturally protested against for being rude about god or whatever, but the film itself never says anything bad about god at all, it's the catholic church that gets ridiculed.
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Maximus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:05 pm

RavenEyry wrote:The film Dogma is all about things like that. It was naturally protested against for being rude about god or whatever, but the film itself never says anything bad about god at all, it's the catholic church that gets ridiculed.

Film Dogma? 0,o What film? what dogma? 0,o

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by RavenEyry on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:09 pm

CorranusMaximus wrote:
Film Dogma? 0,o What film? what dogma? 0,o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma_%28film%29
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Maximus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:13 pm

RavenEyry wrote:
CorranusMaximus wrote:
Film Dogma? 0,o What film? what dogma? 0,o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma_%28film%29

Looks interesting, gonna watch it soon... >,>

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Raistlin Majere on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:17 pm

RavenEyry wrote:The film Dogma is all about things like that. It was naturally protested against for being rude about god or whatever, but the film itself never says anything bad about god at all, it's the catholic church that gets ridiculed.

Great film Joyful

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by smokingotter on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:20 pm

Not sure if this was discussed but the Charon, the relay that humanity discovers might be a reference to Charon from Greek mythology who was a ferryman in Hades. Cerberus is also from Greek mythlogy and guards the underworld.

All this might be a hint towards Dante's "Divine Comedy" in which Cerberus and Charon appear. In the divine comedy Dante (the main character) is lost in dark woods where he meets Virgil who gives him visions. (Perhaps in the same way after meeting Object Rho Shepard has nightmares).

I don't remember any scenes of Shepard being lost in the dark woods... oh wait!



The story is told allegorically and is divided into three parts which is basically what the ME3 ending is. Shepard like Dante goes through three levels. For Dante it was Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven. For Shepard Hell might either be initially after Harbinger attacks or the hallway with all the dead bodies. Purgatory being the meeting with TIM/Anderson, and Paradise/Heaven being meeting with starchild, the reapers representative of the "flying angels."


Dante and Beatrice see God as a point of light surrounded by angels. In the decision chamber you meet the catalyst surrounded by flying reapers.

In the decision chamber you see the energy beam as the point of light surrounded by reaper vessels blowing up alliance ships.


In heaven Dante meets Beatrice who basically explains creation of the universe and the role of angels (or in ME3 Shepard meets starchild who explains the role of the reapers which are center for the creation of the ME3 universe and storyline).

ME3 in a lot of ways uses Dante's story. Dante is the story of a person who ascends up to heaven and becomes closer to God. What happens to Shepard when he passed out trying to reach the control panel in the citadel? Shepard's story is of accepting faith of a false god in the reapers and succumbing to indoctrination in the same way Dante ascends to heaven, meets Beatrice and embraces God.

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy
"On the surface, the poem describes Dante's travels through Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven; but at a deeper level, it represents allegorically the soul's journey towards God"

You pray like this Shepard...







"The Divine Comedy finishes with Dante seeing the Triune God. In a flash of understanding, which he cannot express, Dante finally understands the mystery of Christ's divinity and humanity, and his soul becomes aligned with God's love"

"Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction."
-Harbinger


It's so fitting that they would use the exact same work in writing Shepard's journey to indoctrination. Bravo Bioware.
Magic!

Edit: When Shepard dies for our synthesis he also crosses his feet like in the crucifix. Look at Shepard's posture and feet:

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Raistlin Majere on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:27 pm

Nice post Smoking, very nice.


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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by smokingotter on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:27 pm

Should I be posting this in the main IT thread?
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by clennon8 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:36 pm

smokingotter wrote:Should I be posting this in the main IT thread?
Well, I think this is all highly relevant. In fact, I find this exploration of religious allegory to be among the most compelling evidence in favor of IT. That said, I think posting it in the main thread runs the risk of it quickly being buried. Your call.

I wish you would post this stuff in my religion thread on BSN, actually. I've been trying to spark more conversation over there, if only because I don't want to admit defeat to the literalists who think they are dancing on our graves. Link: Control and Synthesis: The Conversion of Shepard
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by smokingotter on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:45 pm

@Clennon8 posted over there. Thanks! Didn't want to flood the bsn with my posts so I'll piece it out.
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Hrothdane on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:49 pm

Really good overall, there is one problem with the inverted trinity analysis.

Historically, the inverted cross has not been an anti-Christian symbol. Many actually saw it as an even more humble symbol to carry because one of the apostles (I believe it was Peter) asked to be crucified upside-down because he considered himself unworthy of dying in the same way as Jesus.

It was only recently that the concept of an inverted cross=satanism or antichrist came about.

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by smokingotter on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:06 pm

Hrothdane wrote:Really good overall, there is one problem with the inverted trinity analysis.

Historically, the inverted cross has not been an anti-Christian symbol. Many actually saw it as an even more humble symbol to carry because one of the apostles (I believe it was Peter) asked to be crucified upside-down because he considered himself unworthy of dying in the same way as Jesus.

It was only recently that the concept of an inverted cross=satanism or antichrist came about.

Thanks. I know. I think there is a trade off between historical and contemporary. I think using the historically inaccurate but common idea of upside crucifix was the best way for the writers to convey their idea to their audience... at least the idea of the anti-reaper.
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Hrothdane on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:22 pm

I can get behind that, otter. I think it also indicates we should limit ourselves to more well-known theological parallels if we are operating under the assumption that BioWare specifically had a typical contemporary audience in mind (not that I have noticed anyone doing that yet).

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by RavenEyry on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:47 pm

Of course the synthesis pose could just be standard unnecessary biblical symbolism. "Hey look, our main character is Jesus!"

Course all the other stuff shows the symbolism is more than superficial, but it doesn't automatically go to IT.


Shepard is dying for your syn! Garrus
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by clennon8 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:54 pm

Not all of the symbolism needs to be "proof of IT," but I think the overall idea is hard to dismiss. The entire damn series has been about indoctrination. Religion and indoctrination are so close together as to be the same thing in Mass Effect.
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Hrothdane on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:03 pm

clennon8 wrote:Not all of the symbolism needs to be "proof of IT," but I think the overall idea is hard to dismiss. The entire damn series has been about indoctrination. Religion and indoctrination are so close together as to be the same thing in Mass Effect.

Absolutely. Most good works will have multiple levels of symbolism and meanings as well. Understanding each of the elements within the work helps create a better picture of the gestalt and driving ideas within the work. Once we have the big picture, it helps us understand the individual elements better, such as the reasons for implementing IT in the first place.
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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:40 pm

All hail the Great Smoking Otter of the Sky! cheers

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

Post by Maximus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:50 pm

Divine Otter, Bless us with your Wisdom, grant us Understanding! Lead us towards IT Reveal! ;>

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Re: The parallels between religion and the indoctrination endings

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