No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

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No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by Rifneno on Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:39 am

I'm going to go over why I'm convinced that Leviathan is either actually in league with the Reapers or doesn't exist at all and the entire thing is a Reaper mind game.

The Crucible
I'll start with what first set off warning alarms in my head. The Crucible. Leviathan's body language is pretty clear to be hiding something when asked about the Crucible. Further, their answer is fairly ridiculous. Why would they never have investigated the Crucible plans between cycles? Why wouldn't they even have seen the plans through a thrall's eyes and figured out what it does? If simpler organic races such as our traditional humanoid ones created the Crucible, then it cannot be beyond Leviathan's understanding. They'd know what it did if they investigated the plans. The only logical conclusion is that Leviathan is the Crucible's true architect.

But wait. If that's the case, why don't the Reapers seem bothered by it? There's no way that no one involved with the Crucible project is indoctrinated. You can even send rachni there that are definitely indoctrinated. It makes no difference. Why wouldn't it though? Why wouldn't the Reapers come and destroy it? They must know where it's being built if they had indoctrinated agents there. And during the battle with Sword, all it would've taken was a single shot from a capital ship to take out the Crucible. It's not being guarded that well. Yet the Reapers don't even try to stop it from being deployed. Only one conclusion. Reapers are behind the Crucible.

Evidence very strongly points towards both of them being the true creators of the Crucible. There's only two possibilities. Terribad riteing lol... or the Reapers and Leviathan are one and the same.

Odd Similarities and Interest in Human Biotics

There's a number of strange parallels between the two supposedly opposing factions.
- Both refer to the culling as "harvest" and flatly refused to call it a war.
- Both hide their artifacts in asteroids and in natural resources where miners will eventually find them.
- Both use orbs a foot or two across as an artifact (we haven't seen the Reapers' version since ME1 and graphics have changed drastically since then).
- This is the most telling one by far though: both have some yet unexplained interest in biotics. Human biotics in particular. For those of you who haven't read Mass Effect: Retribution, the Reapers used a man named Paul Grayson as an avatar similar to the way Sovereign did Saren. What did they do with their one puppet in the galaxy? They broke into Grissom Academy and uploaded terabytes of data about Project Ascension to the Reapers. You may recognize Project Ascension and Grissom Academy from ME3. Cerberus was there abducting the students involved. And they only cared about biotics, not the other students. We don't know what the purpose is, but we do know that the Reapers are very interested in the subject of human biotics.

But here's where it gets eyebrow raising. Watch this clip of Shepard, Kaiden, and Javik on Mahavid (the asteroid with the enthralled miners). Javik picks up something they're studying and reads it aloud: "Evolutionary Implications of Human Biotics". I cannot stress this enough: Why the fuck is Leviathan studying that?

This isn't the only thing Leviathan is studying that it shouldn't be studying. For example there's two scientists trying to find a way around turian pain threshold. Even ignoring that there's no good reason to find a way to enduce more torturous pain before mental break, there's no reason for them to be studying such a thing. They claim they just hide down there and have a handful of pawns that they use to see what's going from. Why does hiding require you to supertorture people? They're doing terrible things to turians, there's no other explanation for the dialogue. But why are they doing it? It makes no sense if they're what they claim. It makes perfect sense if they're with the Reapers.

Things to Think About

Arrival and meeting Leviathan were the only times we've been shoe-horned into having Shepard go it alone. Both times, we deal with deception and indoctrination. In Arrival it's generally agreed that the reason Shepard goes alone is because they only wanted Shepard next to Object Rho for three days. They didn't want the player to be inadvertantly forcing indoctrination upon crewmates by taking them along. So what's the reason for Shepard being sent all by his lonesome to find Leviathan? Allow me to speculate for a moment... what if what Shepard's seeing isn't really there? What if he only sees some whale-sized organic cuttlefish because the Reapers are already in his head enough to distort reality? Perhaps there's nothing there at all. Perhaps they're actually the usual synthetic Reapers. One thing is for sure though. They wrote it so that Shepard is the only one who has ever seen Leviathan.

Do you guys remember how we first found out about the Leviathan DLC? It was datamined from Extended Cut. But what we saw then was vastly different than what we got in Leviathan. In the original leak, Leviathan was a Reaper. A supposedly rogue Reaper, but a Reaper nonetheless. Apparently the rest of the crew got to meet it too. EDI specifically mentions that the AI shackles on Leviathan simulate extreme hot and cold. Leviathan was imprisoned there by the other Reapers and hooked up to what basically amounted to an AI torture device. Why was there such a huge difference between what was datamined then and what Leviathan was released as? Here's an idea. Perhaps the general idea really was the same but they a detail that was ultimately meaningless. By this I mean it was changed from "Reapers trick everyone by pretending one of them is rogue so they view it as an ally" to "Reapers trick everyone by pretending to be their creators which they will view as an ally".

Leviathan tells this story about an Intelligence, one that matches up with the Reapers' story as they attempt to indoctrinate Shepard. But why? Why would the Reapers tell the truth about their existence as they try to indoctrinate Shepard? They could easily come up with a lie that works better than that "truth". We know they have nothing against lying as a part of their psychological warfare. So why tell their grand secret as part of this indoctrination attempt? Unless it isn't the truth. Unless Leviathan is only telling that story about a mythical AI because it's Reaper aligned and it knows that doing so will lend credibility to Starbinger later on. If so, it worked magnificently. Look how many people stopped believing in IT, even with all the evidence amassed, because Leviathan "confirmed the catalyst is real". That's the only way this makes sense. There is no central intelligence. There is no catalyst. They are each a nation. Independent. Free of all weakness.

P.S. I've got a few more points, but this is really the "A" material so I think I'll see how it goes from this before going any further.
P.S.S. I still say "Crouching Leviathan, Hidden Reaper" was the more clever title.  Stupid chat room, making me doubt myself.  All Byne's fault.

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by symbowles on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:35 pm

I was literally just thinking about this the other day...how the original leak didn't match up to what was released.

This is extremely interesting.

"Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine." - Harbinger
"Your mind belongs to me." - Ah, yes... Leviathan Ah, yes...  

Harbinger strikes me as a guy that keeps his promises, and the whole Leviathan "mission" may just be another Harbinger/Reaper mind game to cripple Shepard's psyche for the final test, aka, the crucible.

Amazing how we still don't run out of things to speculate about.

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by dorktainian on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:00 pm

i wouldnt trust leviathan as far as i could kick him. he wants the harvests to continue.

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by BlueLogic on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:03 pm

Rifneno wrote:...both have some yet unexplained interest in biotics. Human biotics in particular.
...Watch this clip of Shepard, Kaiden, and Javik on Mahavid (the asteroid with the enthralled miners). Javik picks up something they're studying and reads it aloud: "Evolutionary Implications of Human Biotics". I cannot stress this enough: Why the fuck is Leviathan studying that?
Suspect 

Rifneno wrote:This isn't the only thing Leviathan is studying that it shouldn't be studying. For example there's two scientists trying to find a way around turian pain threshold. Even ignoring that there's no good reason to find a way to enduce more torturous pain before mental break, there's no reason for them to be studying such a thing. They claim they just hide down there and have a handful of pawns that they use to see what's going from. Why does hiding require you to supertorture people? They're doing terrible things to turians, there's no other explanation for the dialogue. But why are they doing it? It makes no sense if they're what they claim. It makes perfect sense if they're with the Reapers.
Very interesting.  This makes me think the two fields of study are perhaps related.  At some point in ME2, when resolving Jack's story, we find out that Cerberus was using extreme pain to attempt to break down a subject's mental barriers in the hopes of unlocking greater biotic potential.  I'll try to find a clip ASAP.

EDIT:  Ok, not exactly what I remembered, but this applies.  

-Scientist at Teltin Facility explains how experiments with lowering core temperatures of subjects failed to increase biotic potential:
http://youtu.be/OrQRbGyfbmA?t=5m55s

EDIT: Also found this list of quotes from Harbinger regarding Shepard's squad:
“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”
“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”
“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”
“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”
“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”
“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”
“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”
“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”
“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”
“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”
“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”
“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”

I assume these relate to Harbinger's plans to make a new reaper, but it struck me as interesting that humans are apparently the only species of interest.

Rifneno wrote:P.S.S. I still say "Crouching Leviathan, Hidden Reaper" was the more clever title.  Stupid chat room, making me doubt myself.  All Byne's fault.
*facepalm*  Missed opportunity.  Joyful

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by dorktainian on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:43 pm

Leviathan: You cannot conceive of a galaxy that bends to your will. Every creature, every nation, every planet we discovered became our tools. We were above the concerns of the lesser species. The intelligence was envisioned as simply another tool.
Shepard: And now we all pay the price for your mistake.
Leviathan: There was no mistake, it still serves its purpose.

yeah....erm.... ok Mr Reaper.

Heres a question. What if the Reapers are Avatars for the Leviathans? (so there are LOTS of leviathans)

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by symbowles on Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:29 pm

dork wrote:Leviathan: You cannot conceive of a galaxy that bends to your will.
"The forces of the universe bend to me" Harbinger 

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:40 pm

I had a long post typed up, but I lost it all :( Main points...

-You might be right Rif, and I'd probably be ok with that.

-I'm more inclined to think that the Leviathans are legit, in themselves.

-Harbinger gained his attitude from BEING made of Leviathans. All other Reapers, even capital ones, are likely just indoctrinated into the fold. Harbinger is essentially High Priest, but not the King.

-Sovereign is a synthetic Reaper maybe made after Harbinger. A "Geth Ship" ;), but what if it also housed the Intelligence, to watch over all cycles?
"So be it." ...does that sounds like gloating Harbinger, or instead "This exchange is over" dismissive Sovereign? :)

-Perhaps after defeating Saren-Sovereign (really now, 'Reapers upgraded their assuming control since Sovereign'? OK CODEX), Sovereign/Intelligence just realized that his Reaper shell was going to blow up, so retreated to the Citadel in order to still oversee this cycle's Harvest?

-"There is NO WAR, there is ONLY THE HARVEST." Sovereign wouldn't even need to interfere with the organics' war effort itself, only relay their plans to the Reapers to make sure that their casualties are super minimal. Fool the organics into thinking that this is an actual war.

-This would make Saren only a tool for the Reapers for them to see if the Turians were viable for Ascension, and Sovereign's only real goal was to be able to reach the Citadel again, to bypass Prothian sabotage. The Prothians forced Sovereign to do this stuff 'manually', instead of just a quick data burst to the Citadel to activate the arrival of the Reapers. (*cough* 'gates of hell')
-Hell, for all we know, the Citadel is the Intelligence's Normandy, and Sovereign body is the Intelligence's EDI, and he prefers the 'EDI' to being just a giant space station? More mobile?
-In fact, this would explain how the Citadel moved instantly, even if 'TIM' in the ending is a Reaper illusion. It WAS the Intelligence that did it all along, and could put its plan into motion... this cycle can finally create the Crucible, and the Reapers can take this chance to use it for their own aims.

-After Saren dies, the plan changes - go for the humans, yet gun for Shepard. Shepard at this point is too dangerous to utilize, so they want him out of the picture, but the humans are interesting, and they fast-track production of a Human-Reaper ahead of time for the Reaper fleet to get there, as they're always capable of eventually doing.
(-Sovereign not using the Collectors in ME1 can be explained that he still wants to do everything as covertly as possible, given that the Prothians already caught onto much of the Reaper plan. Geth, rachni, a rogue Spectre, all can be explained without revealing the Reapers, but Collectors may be tied to previous cycles.)

-After Shepard stops production of the Human-Reaper, attention is fully brought back to him. Sovereign overrules Harbinger's plan (up to this point just to KILL Shepard if possible), and wants to use him. Arrival happens and shows the Reapers' decided plan - capture and turn Shepard. The Reapers have mental ties to Shepard, and project either Harbinger or a false Collector General to him.

-Shepard escapes this attempt, but the Reapers have the seeds of indoctrination sown in him, regardless of Arrival, by now.


-So this still begs the question, if Sovereign could show itself as an illusion - are Leviathan really Reapers? They could be, or instead, the Reapers were tracking Shepard this whole time and finally saw the chance to strike against the hiding Leviathans. Hell, it could even be BOTH, in a way. Leviathans could, actually, be rogue Reapers (as material kept hinting at), disguising themselves as Leviathans in order to not give away their position.

I mean, what if the Intelligence made several Leviathan Reapers? They're damn big, after all. What if just Harbinger relished his job, but the others resisted and wanted to rule the organics, still, for themselves? They are 'progeny', after all :) What if they're just Reaper progeny, mechanical children, of real Leviathans? :)

This possibility would mean that there is potential for a Reaper 'Civil War' to break out of the 'Cold War' stage, and into open fighting. The shot against the Reaper orbiting the Leviathans' planet, could be the spark for it.

...
I'm not even gonna get much into TIM being the ghost remnants of a resisting Reaper. That's Dem's field :P It would almost be fitting, however, to have the Leviathans actually just be the 'other heads' to Cerberus, and TIM only being the overt and humanoid front of it. Blue = Control = Cerberus, it at least fits thematically. The Leviathans be dead, yet their urge to control the cosmos living on, and TIM just having growing fixation on having humanity as the top race to serve the 'Leviathans', and usurp the Reapers.

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by Rifneno on Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:21 pm

symbowles wrote:
"Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine." - Harbinger
"Your mind belongs to me." - Ah, yes... Leviathan Ah, yes... 
symbowles wrote:
dork wrote:Leviathan: You cannot conceive of a galaxy that bends to your will.
"The forces of the universe bend to me" Harbinger 
Excellent catches. *brofist*

BlueLogic wrote:
Very interesting. This makes me think the two fields of study are perhaps related. At some point in ME2, when resolving Jack's story, we find out that Cerberus was using extreme pain to attempt to break down a subject's mental barriers in the hopes of unlocking greater biotic potential. I'll try to find a clip ASAP.
Woot, another great catch. I'd forgotten all about the pain and biotics thing. That's the most probable explanation beyond the villains simply being evil for the sake of evil.

“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”
This one was always the funniest. I never noticed until Andro pointed it out. They're trying to decide which alien species to use for reproduction themselves, and they decided asari suck because they rely on aliens for reproduction. Seems legit.

dork wrote:Heres a question.  What if the Reapers are Avatars for the Leviathans? (so there are LOTS of leviathans)
Quite possible. But if that's the case, what are they making people pudding for?

SwobyJ wrote:-Harbinger gained his attitude from BEING made of Leviathans. All other Reapers, even capital ones, are likely just indoctrinated into the fold. Harbinger is essentially High Priest, but not the King.
Possible, but that doesn't explain why all Reapers talk like that. Even Shepard as a Reaper in control talks in that manner, and it sure didn't get it from being made out of Shepard.

-Sovereign is a synthetic Reaper maybe made after Harbinger. A "Geth Ship" ;), but what if it also housed the Intelligence, to watch over all cycles?
"So be it." ...does that sounds like gloating Harbinger, or instead "This exchange is over" dismissive Sovereign? :)
*points to the south* Crazy Door's that-a-way.

-Perhaps after defeating Saren-Sovereign (really now, 'Reapers upgraded their assuming control since Sovereign'? OK CODEX), Sovereign/Intelligence just realized that his Reaper shell was going to blow up, so retreated to the Citadel in order to still oversee this cycle's Harvest?
The codex is stupid. That weakness has not been fixed. The Reaepers just rarely make an organic avatar, and they release control before dying. Notice that Harbinger released the Collector General before the blast took him out. WoG later said that was because he'd have shared Sovereign's fate if he didn't. The weakness is still there, but it's not one that can be exploited to win the war.

-"There is NO WAR, there is ONLY THE HARVEST." Sovereign wouldn't even need to interfere with the organics' war effort itself, only relay their plans to the Reapers to make sure that their casualties are super minimal. Fool the organics into thinking that this is an actual war.
He did a pretty shit job of it then, because the Reapers have take colossal losses in this cycle. They rarely lose even one capital ship. They've lost enough in this cycle that most people don't even know that Noveria took one down.

*keeps reading*...

No, seriously. Crazy Door's that-a-way. Main forum is for figuring out hints and stuff given to us in the game, not random "what if's".

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by CSSteele on Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:48 am

Interesting thoughts Rif, I hadn't looked at it in that way. I was going to say 'But the Reapers don't control people like that' and .. well, they don't, not in the same way. From all we've seen, the direct control that they use in that manner requires extensive nanide infestation; Paul Grayson, The Collectors. In order to mind-f*** Shepard like that, ..... well.... Is Shepard rebuilt using full-on Reaper tech? Has Shepard been THAT compromised?

I don't really want too drop into that angle of speculation, but with all of the VI talk with the Cerberus Daily news and such, with the President that has the VI in his head keeping him alive, and the talk in Huerta Memorial Hospital - Where does Shepard stand there? Does it help resist Indoctrination if it's true? Does it hinder it?

I have major questions regarding the Lazarus project and who/what we're controlling from ME2 onward, but that's another not quite related topic. It's related only because of the 'Assuming Direct Control' aspect of this whole thing.

- Back on topic - Your points are interesting to consider, but the evidence between Leviathan's DLC in control and such, compared to what we've seen Harbinger do already in the game and in books doesn't quite line up. How do you deal with those?
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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by symbowles on Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:47 pm

Another thing Leviathan says is quite telling: "We will survive. You will remain here as a serveant of our needs."

What if Shepard simply said "Ok, sounds good"? If Leviathan is indeed another reaper test/illusion/trap, would Shepard's fate be similar to that of choosing control or synthesis?

Instead of just agreeing to Leviathan's conclusion, Shepard argues back...he acts how he should have acted towards starbinger. The reason? His mental fortitude is still too strong and intact.

The main point of all of this, is that when Shepard is alone, bad things happen. Hope we aren't getting too scary doorish, but the idea that Leviathan is a reaper attempt to trick Shepard is very intriguing.

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by dorktainian on Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:51 pm

does leviathan blow the reaper to smitherines?

nope it just shuts it down.

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by Rifneno on Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:02 pm

CSSteele wrote:Interesting thoughts Rif, I hadn't looked at it in that way. I was going to say 'But the Reapers don't control people like that' and .. well, they don't, not in the same way. From all we've seen, the direct control that they use in that manner requires extensive nanide infestation; Paul Grayson, The Collectors. In order to mind-f*** Shepard like that,  ..... well.... Is Shepard rebuilt using full-on Reaper tech? Has Shepard been THAT compromised?

I don't really want too drop into that angle of speculation, but with all of the VI talk with the Cerberus Daily news and such, with the President that has the VI in his head keeping him alive, and the talk in Huerta Memorial Hospital - Where does Shepard stand there? Does it help resist Indoctrination if it's true? Does it hinder it?

I have major questions regarding the Lazarus project and who/what we're controlling from ME2 onward, but that's another not quite related topic. It's related only because of the 'Assuming Direct Control' aspect of this whole thing.

- Back on topic - Your points are interesting to consider, but the evidence between Leviathan's DLC in control and such, compared to what we've seen Harbinger do already in the game and in books doesn't quite line up. How do you deal with those?
IMO there's significant evidence that Reaper tech was indeed used in Project Lazarus. The two biggest points are a) they made a point of the fact that modern medicine simply could not bring Shepard back. It wasn't a matter of funding or research; it simply wasn't possible from what was known about medical science. Why would they go out of their way to point that out to us unless it was hinting at something? Really the only things it could be are that Reaper tech was aided, or bad riteing lolz. b) Miranda complains about "all the black boxes on Project Lazarus". Black boxes means there was a lot of stuff that TIM was hiding from Miranda. But Miranda is the one that TIM said assured him it could be done. Something doesn't add up there. Unless those black boxes were Reaper tech that TIM was hiding from Miranda. And what else would he hide from her?

But that's not really consequential to this. Shepard doesn't have to be extremely nanite infected for the Reapers to make him hallucinate. I believe that type of infection is only necessary to become a Reaper avatar like Saren, Grayson, or the Collector general. Hearing whispers is one of the early signs of indoctrination, right? Well if they can manipulate a victim's sense of hearing, why not their sense of sight as well? We don't know the specifics of how indoctrination works, but it seems reasonable to me.

It's certainly true that the Leviathan thralling seems different than Reaper indoctrination, but again, we don't know how indoctrination really works. We haven't seen indoctrination work quite like what we saw on Mahavid, but that doesn't mean it can't. On the contrary, the Reapers almost certainly possess the ability to thrall in that nature even if this theory is completely wrong and the Leviathans are what they say they are. Leviathan says that their ability to thrall lesser races is a natural ability of theirs and that the Intelligence/Reapers took that ability, refined and perfected it, and it became what we know as indoctrination. So according to their story, indoctrination is simply an improved version of thralling. Why wouldn't indoctrination be capable of anything that thralling is?

On the other side of the coin, it's good tactics not to show all your cards when you don't have to. Having capabilities they haven't revealed to us lets the Reapers pull an ace out of the hole when they need it. We can't prepare for what we don't know. This applies not just to indoctrination, but other sorts of tech. That tech disabling pulse the Leviathans used on Despoina? Seems kind of like what happened to the Normandy at the Collector base, doesn't it?

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by CSSteele on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:16 pm

I see what you're saying Rif, and if the Reapers version of control is a perfected version of 'thralling' .. well.. we're told that rapid Reaper indoc warps the brain, where as Leviathan 'Indoc' in the controlling doesn't leave any side-effects other than memory gaps. I'm just going by what we saw actually occur.

In that vein, I think that the 'perfection' of Reaper Indoctrination is that they can indoctrinate someone and it becomes permanent, and they're connected/work for the Reapers forever, where the Leviathans have to keep a steady control, concentrating on their thralls, otherwise they break free and resume their previous lives/activities. That's my personal view on what they're referring to anyway.

So, President Huerta and the VI in his brain.... Shepard or no? Similar thing? And the question that bugs me THE MOST about ME2's intro there. -- WHY? Why was it necessary to kill Shepard and wake him up 2 years later like that? There are plenty of other reasons/story hooks they could've used to drag him into Cerberus like they did, so I don't really see the point, other than for us to wonder if we're really controlling Shepard or not.

-- This is related because it has implications for Reaper Indoctrination and Leviathan thralls. Either Levi's can control VI's, or Shepard is a fully-functional human still, with his brain being his brain and his mind. Right? Reapers can subvert AI's and probably VI's with their nanides and their codes, and I think that would be far more invasive than what we've seen in ME3.

That all said, I'm interested in hearing your P.S.S. additional info you mentioned, I am torn between the Leviathans still working with the Reapers and the other idea where the Levi's and the Reapers are playing chess with each cycle as hinted at by the VI from the Thessia beacon.


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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by Maximus on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:28 am

"What is the justification for Shepard's death and resurrection at the start of ME2?

You take "justification" the wrong way. I meant narrative justification. Usually a character is miraculously resurrected because it didn't survive the previous episode. Audiences tend to accept it, suspend their disbelief, because they're glad one of their favorite characters is in the sequel. But here's the thing: Shepard doesn't die in ME1. So why did the writers do this? I expected some twist in ME2 and then ME3, the most obvious one being Cerberus seizing control of Shepard. But it never came.

Not sure about justification, but the purpose for Shepard's death and resurrection was to:

Advance the timeline forward 2 years, while keeping Shepard's (and by extension, the player's) perspective on events static,

Move the ME1 cast into the background to make way for new characters. (Ironically, this situation was reversed in ME3),

Get rid of the original Normandy, providing a story-based excuse for Shepard to get a bigger, badder ship to fly around in, per what usually happens in video game sequels,

Provide a somewhat plausible in-story explanation for why Shepard would start ME2 at a low level with radically altered abilities, regardless of their status in ME1 (the real reason, of course, is that the combat mechanics were completely overhauled in ME2 and rendered incompatible with ME1's system), as well as why all the weapons, equipment and credits Shep had at the end of ME1 would
suddenly go bye-bye in ME2,

Introduce a visual indicator of P/R alignment with the cybernetics scars.

Provide a major twist to set the tone of the game

Establish the Collectors as a legitimate threat."


^ according to this: http://masseffect.answers.wikia.com/wiki/What_is_the_justification_for_Shepard's_death_and_resurrection_at_the_start_of_ME2

Seems Legit...

IMO, they killed Shepard and resurrected him as a cyborg (possibly implanted with Reaper tech) for a purpose. That is - if you believe that Cerberus was working for the Reapers from the very beginning - which is possible, given that TIM was partially transformed by Reaper Tech. Shepard became what Reapers always wanted. The union of flesh and machine. Connection between organics and synthetics. Pinnacle of evolution. Strength of both, Weakness of neither! Saren 2.0. Call it however you like, in the end he became the "servant of their needs". I'm afraid he might end up just like Saren - with a Predator pointed towards himself or even worse - as a "core" of a Human Reaper....

yeah, yeah they won't make coz it's too dark, and ppl prefer rainbows and unicorns..blah, blah, blah

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by Restrider on Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:17 pm

Assuming that BW tried to conceal IT after the original ending, the difference between the leaked script and the actual DLC makes sense.

Remember Javik's line in the DLC?
It was something like this:
"Do not trust this Leviathan. He is a defector, causing harm to his own kind. Imagine what he could do to those who are not of his kind." - Javik

This line was before you find out that Leviathan is not a Reaper, but organic.

Regardless, imagine that Leviathan in fact was a Reaper, then its credebility would not be that high, really. Because he is a fucking Reaper and Reapers lie, are cunning and deceptive. The consequence would be that IT would not be convealed very well by this DLC.

However, exchange the rogue Reaper with an organic super squid that actually seems to have reasons to hate the Reapers and suddenly it is a different thing.
Basically summed up with this image:

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by TurianRebel212 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:30 pm

One things for sure. Leviathan and the Reapers are truly only interested in Shepard. A battle for shepards beleifs, moral, ethics, mind and soul- Shepards crucible.

It is stated that a biotic shepard- Vanguard or Adept is the most powerful human biotic in the galaxy- I believe it's a convo with kaiden in ME1 if you're a Biotic Shep.

Shepard is the key, and Shepard is the catalyst in this Leviathan and/or reaper thrall.

Something about Sovereign. Again first references of Sovereign is 2162, around the same time period the Leviathan of Dis was first referenced as well- I'm pretty sure that Sovereign was the Leviathan of Dis. Also, what if Sovereign wasn't going to open the mass relay to darkspace, but was going to close it and all the relays. And what if Sovereign was looking for Something- this would explain the beacons and the indoctrination stuff. What if Sovereign through reaper indoctrination/thrall was trying to find the Leviathans??? A sort of indoctrination mind game/investigation hunt for the Leviathans.

I do not believe for a minute that the Leviathans were just dormant and hiding since their extinction event. Hell, even Leviathan tells you that it's been studying Shepard. So, how has Leviathan been 'studying' Shepard?


Through the thrall process.

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by hukbum on Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:00 pm

TurianRebel212 wrote:I'm pretty sure that Sovereign was the Leviathan of Dis.
Doesn't really add up since the Batarians continued the studies on that thing till the Reaper's arrival. How can they study something flying arround?

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by TurianRebel212 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:18 pm

hukbum wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:I'm pretty sure that Sovereign was the Leviathan of Dis.
Doesn't really add up since the Batarians continued the studies on that thing till the Reaper's arrival. How can they study something flying arround?
you mean the investigation of Leviathan in 2183. Sovereign discovery/siting is 2162 and the Leviathan of Dis event was 2163.

The Leviathan of Dis was actually told to shepard by Balak-given that he survived tera nova, that the Leviathan of Dis corpse was actually a Reaper, one of my theories is that, was there only one Levithan of Dis or 'Sovereigns'???, (far fetched I know, but possible).

The references of Sovereign in 2162 and then the Leviathan of Dis incident are kinda strange. Given that some things are possible, (just possible, I'm not saying it's hard fact).

1)- Sovereign or a Sovereign type reaper was the Leviathan of Dis- balak told shepard this and the Leviathan of DLC illuminates that this is what it is.

2). It (Leviathan of Dis) was a Leviathan and thus proves that the Leviathan are all over the place and/or can space travel. And it was taken down by a something- most likely Sovereign or a sovereign class reaper.

3) Sovereign shot down the "Leviathan of Dis". Proving one of two things that Sovereign is really a 'sovereign' entity and apart from the rest of the Reaper horde. Or that the Leviathan of Dis was a Leviathan and Sovereign was just reaping up another Leviathan.

4) That the Leviathan we see on Distopia 2181(Given that they are the last of the species according to Leviathan that you talk to in the DLC) Either had it's orbs on Jartar (Leviathan of Dis location), and having orbs on Jartar could mean that the the thralls of Leviathan are quite frequent and more powerful than we think. Or yet again, the Leviathan were able to space travel- much like the reapers. As Jartar is mostly rock or silicates- I don't think there's any bodies of water that could house a Leviathan like we see them in a Leviathan DLC.

So yet again, if we believe Balak- that Leviathan of Dis was a reaper corpse; and that something shot down that reaper corpse ( project aurora and the 'real Leviathan of Dis'- Leviathan DLC), and given that Jartar is mostly rock and has very little bodies of water. Especially bodies of water large enough to house 2 KM tall cuddle fish- I think Harby is even bigger than Reaper capital/sovereing class ships. So yeah, they're gonna need room and food and water. Or they travel in space or have orbs in Jartar. If they have orbs there, they could very possibly have orbs all over. If they travel in space, then the Leviathan could be mistaken as Reapers.

The Leviathan are really, really interesting. I hope the next game explores them more. I think they're potential is even more than the reapers.


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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by CSSteele on Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:47 pm

We don't know what shot down the Levi of Dis, but it was a Reaper. It was picked up by the batarians and they kept it and studied it. It indoctrinated them and allowed for an easy harvesting of the Batarian Hegemony. One of the first books has Saren finding Sovereign, as there was a scientist studying A.I. and Sovereign, which of course indoctrinated him before Saren killed him and took the ship.

With the derelict Reaper, the Leviathan of Dis, and then Sovereign, we apparently had a minimum of 3 Reapers just hanging out in our galaxy by this cycle.

The DLC tells us that a Leviathan shot down the Reaper there, or so the doctor believes, and it is somewhat substantiated by the fact the Leviathans had the doctor killed, he had lots of things figured out and was getting way too close.


And, once more, I honestly believe that the Leviathans are allowing the Reapers to do their thing, because they're still learning about the species and such. The perfected thrall process is that the Reapers can do it any time they want and the effect is permanent, where Leviathan thralling requires them to keep an orb nearby and keep a focus on the people, those are it's weaknesses.
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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by Rifneno on Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:37 am

I suck at keeping up with threads lately.

CSSteele wrote:I see what you're saying Rif, and if the Reapers version of control is a perfected version of 'thralling' .. well.. we're told that rapid Reaper indoc warps the brain, where as Leviathan 'Indoc' in the controlling doesn't leave any side-effects other than memory gaps. I'm just going by what we saw actually occur.

In that vein, I think that the 'perfection' of Reaper Indoctrination is that they can indoctrinate someone and it becomes permanent, and they're connected/work for the Reapers forever, where the Leviathans have to keep a steady control, concentrating on their thralls, otherwise they break free and resume their previous lives/activities. That's my personal view on what they're referring to anyway.
They seemingly had control of everyone on that asteroid for a full decade. They definitely didn't keep steady concentration for that long. And why would they want to anyway? They claim to be using their thralls to view what's going on in the outside world, but they did exactly the opposite. Their thralls completely isolated themselves from the rest of the galaxy and went about studying a variety of unholy topics.

While I certainly acknowledge that Leviathan enthrallment doesn't seem to be the same thing as indoctrination, I don't believe it outweighs the rest of the hints pointing toward Leviathans being part of the Reaper faction in one way or another. While the explanation that this is simply a side to indoctrination we haven't seen is a bit unsatisfying on its own, I find that more likely than Leviathan being legit with all these things indicating otherwise.

CSSteele wrote:So, President Huerta and the VI in his brain.... Shepard or no? Similar thing? And the question that bugs me THE MOST about ME2's intro there. -- WHY? Why was it necessary to kill Shepard and wake him up 2 years later like that? There are plenty of other reasons/story hooks they could've used to drag him into Cerberus like they did, so I don't really see the point, other than for us to wonder if we're really controlling Shepard or not.

-- This is related because it has implications for Reaper Indoctrination and Leviathan thralls. Either Levi's can control VI's, or Shepard is a fully-functional human still, with his brain being his brain and his mind. Right? Reapers can subvert AI's and probably VI's with their nanides and their codes, and I think that would be far more invasive than what we've seen in ME3.
As I understand it, Huerta's condition is completely different from Shepard's. As far as we know, Shepard has a normal organic brain. Whether it was the original one or a new one that had the memories of the old one transferred, we don't know. But the "rebuilding Shepard" bit in ME2 clearly shows a human brain. President Huerta is simply dead. He died of a stroke and they managed to transfer some brain functionality to a computer. He is synthetic now, if he is considered alive and sapient at all anymore. It's unclear how much success they had in transfering his mind to a computer, but it's clear that there's significant problems. Even for the Reapers, transfering an organic mind into a computer is a huge deal with questionable degrees of success. For humans to try it with the technology of pre-invasion Mass Effect 3? LOL.

CSSteele wrote:That all said, I'm interested in hearing your P.S.S. additional info you mentioned, I am torn between the Leviathans still working with the Reapers and the other idea where the Levi's and the Reapers are playing chess with each cycle as hinted at by the VI from the Thessia beacon.
Hmm? Oh, nothing major.

1. When that Reaper is closing in and almost blasts the Kodiak before the Leviathans take it down, it's charging up its main gun. Reapers are covered in all sorts of weapons for all sorts of targets. It was preparing to its most powerful weapon, one with a low end estimate of about 15 times the power of the Hiroshima atomic bomb. For one shuttle. Why? That's beyond overkill, and Reapers aren't known for being inefficient. But it would make sense if the whole thing was an act and they wanted Shepard to think they just saved him. "Prepare to fire your main gun and then play possum instead of firing." Which is another thing. They specifically said the dead Reaper on Jartar was killed in combat. Heavily implying it had suffered a lot of physical damage. The one the Leviathans "killed" to save Shepard was hit by something like an electromagnetic pulse. No obvious physical damage, electronics just stop working. Why was the Leviathan of Dis killed in a different manner? Because...

2. The Reapers make use of it when one of their own is killed in combat. The corpses are used as traps for organics. The Derelict Reaper orbiting Mnemosyne, the Leviathan of Dis, whenever organics find a dead Reaper just laying around, it ends very badly for them. I remember discussing this in the main thread months ago, but the derelict Reaper was definitely a trap. Reapers don't use automated systems. Organics use automated systems to compensate for our low reaction times and attention spans. These are weaknesses a Reaper doesn't have. Further, those scientists never encountered that barrier that was put up as soon as Shepard went in. It wasn't an automated response: It wanted Shepard. Make no mistake: that "dead" Reaper was a trap. Shepard awesomed his way out of it, but it was a trap nonetheless. Same for the Leviathan of Dis. "Study me, I'll make your race teh awesomest!" it whispered in their ears. And then Khar'Shan was easy pickings. There's even a theory that the reason Batarians are such assholes is because of LoD maniplating their government. They used to be a Citadel race; then they suddenly got all isolationist and bitchy in the recent past. Round about the same time they found LoD. But that's another topic. Point is, they specifically use capital ships which are no longer combat capable as traps. Who's to say this isn't just another one of those?

3. This is a really simple and "meh" one but... at the end of ME2, we saw a whole bunch of different types of capital ships. And yes, they were definitely capital ships because they were all nearly Harbinger's size and we did get a frame of reference as to the distance. If that hasn't been retconned, then Leviathan is lying. "All made in our image". Doesn't seem that way. Unless the Reapers specifically kept all but the cuttlefish type away from Shepard so that this line of bullshit would be more believable.

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by dorktainian on Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:20 pm

Rifneno wrote:

2. The Reapers make use of it when one of their own is killed in combat. The corpses are used as traps for organics. The Derelict Reaper orbiting Mnemosyne, the Leviathan of Dis, whenever organics find a dead Reaper just laying around, it ends very badly for them. I remember discussing this in the main thread months ago, but the derelict Reaper was definitely a trap. Reapers don't use automated systems. Organics use automated systems to compensate for our low reaction times and attention spans. These are weaknesses a Reaper doesn't have. Further, those scientists never encountered that barrier that was put up as soon as Shepard went in. It wasn't an automated response: It wanted Shepard. Make no mistake: that "dead" Reaper was a trap. Shepard awesomed his way out of it, but it was a trap nonetheless. Same for the Leviathan of Dis. "Study me, I'll make your race teh awesomest!" it whispered in their ears. And then Khar'Shan was easy pickings. There's even a theory that the reason Batarians are such assholes is because of LoD maniplating their government. They used to be a Citadel race; then they suddenly got all isolationist and bitchy in the recent past. Round about the same time they found LoD. But that's another topic. Point is, they specifically use capital ships which are no longer combat capable as traps. Who's to say this isn't just another one of those?
What if the three leviathan control all the reapers. Like chess pieces. The reapers mere automatons serving the leviathan - who control them just as harbinger supposedly controlled the collectors? After the cycle finishes the reapers are put away in their toybox. All of it is a game of sorts maybe?


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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by CSSteele on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:39 am

Interesting idea dork. Door content perhaps?

Rif, I get your points and they definitely have merit. As for 3 there, I believe the devs stated that they wanted to get more types of Reapers into ME3, but ran out of time to get them modeled and implemented, so not sure there.

The ONLY piece of evidence that I can think of to add as a rebuttal is what I already said about the VI on Thessia. It brings up a pattern and how it has repeated itself in similar ways over countless cycles, as if something is manipulating events. There are a couple of ways to view it, one of them is the Reapers vs the Leviathans, which makes perfect sense if they're against each other; the chess game for the galaxy. Another way is that it supports Starbrat's claim, and organics rise, create AI's that kill them and all - which the cycle was supposed to stop, mind you.

Now, if those two aren't what the VI was talking about, what is? Are the Reapers and the Leviathans actually controlling THAT MUCH of the galaxy and controlling evolution to that degree? Or was the 'pattern' the Protheans discovered something else at work?
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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by demersel on Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:44 am

Rif, i'm sorry to pop in, but i would like respond to CSSteele's post about the Vendetta VI on Thessia, patterns, cycles and stuff - That VI is not a valid information source. We know that it has been compromised at least several times, Kai Leng, and Bonezia for starters. NOTHING it says can be trusted. And should not really be analysed. Instead it should be treated as delibirate desinformation by the enemy. And that has nothing to do with any theories on how or what - it is just the fact, that we are faced with in a game as a major plot point.
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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by Rifneno on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:20 am

dork wrote:What if the three leviathan control all the reapers.  Like chess pieces.  The reapers mere automatons serving the leviathan - who control them just as harbinger supposedly controlled the collectors?  After the cycle finishes the reapers are put away in their toybox.  All of it is a game of sorts maybe?
Possible, but that leaves another mystery: what are they making all the people slime for then?

CSSteele wrote:Interesting idea dork. Door content perhaps?

Rif, I get your points and they definitely have merit. As for 3 there, I believe the devs stated that they wanted to get more types of Reapers into ME3, but ran out of time to get them modeled and implemented, so not sure there.
Oh I'm sure it was a technical limitation. I'm just theorizing that perhaps they came up with a storyline reason to go with it.

The ONLY piece of evidence that I can think of to add as a rebuttal is what I already said about the VI on Thessia. It brings up a pattern and how it has repeated itself in similar ways over countless cycles, as if something is manipulating events. There are a couple of ways to view it, one of them is the Reapers vs the Leviathans, which makes perfect sense if they're against each other; the chess game for the galaxy. Another way is that it supports Starbrat's claim, and organics rise, create AI's that kill them and all - which the cycle was supposed to stop, mind you.

Now, if those two aren't what the VI was talking about, what is? Are the Reapers and the Leviathans actually controlling THAT MUCH of the galaxy and controlling evolution to that degree? Or was the 'pattern' the Protheans discovered something else at work?
I agree with Demersel about not taking that VI at its word. Not just because it's likely been tampered with, but there's other clues it's... not on the level. First and foremost: how could it possibly know that? The Reapers are so thorough in their cleanup that the Protheans had no idea they were even out there, and yet the Protheans somehow knew that the same events and conflicts happen every cycle for countless millions of years? They knew the specifics of events that happened tens of millions of years before yet they had no idea about the Reapers? That's 45 different types of impossible at once. No. Fuck you, Vendetta. Don't insult my intelligence.

Other inconsistencies... Look at Vigil's attitude, then Vendetta's. Vigil is about fighting back and taking whatever chance you have. Vendetta doesn't even want to help because the Reapers have already showned up. Vigil said "What does it matter? Your survival depends upon stopping them, not in understanding them." Vendetta does nothing but blather on about their supposed reasons. And why did it think Shepard was a Prothean because of the cipher? Vigil wasn't confused by the cipher. In fact, how could it know about the cipher at all unless it was in Shepard's head? And then there's the simple fact that the Temple of Athame is one of the clearest instances of Shepard hearing ringing in his ears throughout the entire game.

I don't trust Vendetta as far as I can throw Chris Priestly.

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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

Post by demersel on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:03 am

Crucible Blueprints showing up in Mars Archives, Vendetta VI at Thessia and Cronos Station, conversation with the Leviathan - those are four instances that have to do with the crucible, Intelligence, and repeating patterns. In three out of four of those cases Cerberus is present and directly involved. Those are coincidently all the instances that happen durting the course of Mass Effect 3 core game.  All the info that we get out of those three instances get backed up and repeated in the conversation with the leviathans. What was that achievement that is abtly named "Conspiracy Theorist"? "use clues to pinpoint exact location of an objective"  - Did we find our culprit or what?

So we have Ceberus and Leviathan...

We know that the reapers are at least partially behind cerberus.
This thread theorises that Leviathan is really a reaper.
Crucible is also looking a lot like the reaper trap from the start of it. And all those four instances are there to convince us it isn't not. What else is there to convince us to use the crucible? Oh, right, that one huge invasion of identical looking reapers that have nothing in common with the real reapers we know of.

Reapers are masters of diversion and deception. Those are their main weapons and tactics. They twist and trick and subdue and confuse. They do that. someone who can just come in force and take everything they want - don't bother with that. The reapers do. For some reason. They make a hell of an effort to inspire the image of them being almost devine and unnatural. Except the one reaper we have actually SEEN - spent hundrets of years plotting and pulling strings in secret, but when it mattered -  went like a punk in a straight fight. How much time it took to take him down? Half an hour? An hour? Two hours? Fifteen minutes?

What if the reapers STAGED the invasion? With decoy reaper looking ships that just happen to have real guns. With one real goal - to get us to make the crucible, and use it?

what are the footsoldiers of the reapers? - the repurposessed coprsess of the current cylce habitants. Where are the collectors? Where are all the others countless races turned into husks?

Where are different looking reapers?

from what we know from ME1 and ME2 - each reaper ship is priceless and the loss of it is unthinkable. That's not supposed to happen.
However we have 2 confirmed reaper corpses (Darelict Reaper and Leviathan of Dis) and Sovereing who is left behind. for all this time for some reason (why is he special, and if he's not - why is he singled out?) - so all of that is unclear. But that gives interesting facts and statistics. Out of three reapers we discover - three are killed/disabled/get killed. That is actually 100% death rate. I will say that again - IN 100% OF DOCUMENTED REAPER SIGHTINGS THEY GET DESTROYED OR DISABLED. Make that actually 4 out of 4. Human Larva reaper counts.

Fact - reapers can't afford to act directly and in the open. - They get off'd.

What do you do when you can't risk any of your personel? YOU SEND IN UNMANNED DRONES. (with men in them.)

What is the first thing the reapers do when showing up, according to hour knowledge? - They SHUT DOWN THE RELAY NETWORK SO IT CAN'T BE USED. So they can go in and harvest out planets one at a time.

What does the crucible regardless of your color choice? IT DISABLES THE REALY NETWORK.
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Re: No Leviathan, you ARE the Reapers.

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