The Mass Effect and 'Time'

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The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:29 am

Okay, I've read a few things lately where people are taking the line from the introduction where it says that the tech could control 'The very fabric of space and time...' and trying to use that as a springboard to justify time-travel a level that jumps outside of the scientific aspect of the lore or gameplay that we're shown in the games.

Now, the purpose of this topic is to point out a portion of the laws of physics as we knew them back when ME1 was released, with the caveat that I haven't REALLY studied up on physics in a few years, so this may be a little outdated. However they are up-to-date on the ME1 release era of physics... moving on.

Firstly, The theory of Relativity (with the subset of Special Relativity) states that no object with mass can exceed the speed of light in a vacuum, meaning FTL travel is basically impossible on a fundamental level. Second is this; time is relative based upon the speed you are traveling, a phenomenon known as Time Dilation. Quick and dirty explanation: objects in motion are affected by Time at a slower rate than objects that are stationary, relative to one another. In many hard sci-fi books/stories a ship travelling from one solar system to another experiences time differently, sometimes drastically. One example in a book, I cannot remember which it was specifically; six years pass for the one ship moving near the speed of light, but for the planet 28 years have passed instead, due to the differences in speed relative to the speed of light. This is a difficult concept to grasp in most cases and it screws with stories and things for everyone that can cause a disconnect when the author has a story to tell that deals with characters, planetary systems, and distance. Therefore many stories figure out a way to bypass this particular limitation of relative physics and time dilation.

Next up is the principle that mass is a constant, but by adding energy to an object you increase it's mass. So, the more energy you pump into an object to propel it closer to the speed of light, the more massive it naturally becomes; thereby increasing it's gravitational effect on the universe around it. Once again looking to Relativity, the more massive an object, the slower time moves within it's influence.

Now, what does all of this have to do with my subject? I think most of you have figured it out by now... the Mass Effect fields caused by eezo and the technology of our ME universe bypass the affect of gravity, mass and spacetime in a neat package. We can travel faster than light with minimal expenditure of fuel, without increasing the mass of our ships and thereby bypassing the time dilation caused by the journey.

The crucible explosion colors at the end of ME3 also demonstrate this, as the HUGE expanse each 'burst' covers on the map of the galaxy we're shown could NOT happen at the speed of light, it would take centuries for those color explosions to cover the distances as depicted. The massive amount of eezo and such in the Crucible and the relays is consumed as a fuel (combined with the one War Asset addition that is a thesis on how the blast can be manipulated to not be affected by planetary bodies, magnetospheres and gravity) allows the blast-waves to move faster than the speed of light to affect the entire galaxy at a near instantaneous time-frame, instead of the dozens of hours it would take to do so normally. I think we all know it takes approximately 8 minutes for light to reach Earth from the Sun, and between 4.5 hours and 6.5 hours to reach Pluto (and the Charon Relay) depending on it's current location in it's orbit.

Time IS affected by Dark Energy, the Crucible and the "Mass Effect" but NOT in the way some of us may think or try and stretch the lore of the series to conclude. In fact, I think it's fantastical enough of a change as it is, given the way it allows the inhabitants of the ME galaxy to bypass the established laws of physics already. Reaching beyond that is outlandish, and stretches the fiction even further beyond credibility.


Last edited by CSSteele on Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:32 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Fixed some types and some missing words. Oops.)
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by MaximizedAction on Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:43 am

Very good!

Now, I was getting ready to post how stuff like time-travel was absolutely impossible within physics but remembered...that that's wrong. It is possible within General Relativity. So slowing down time in Special Relativity isn't the only way of manipulating time. In fact, it's even possible in Alcubierre spacetimes, which I kinda think is what Mass Relays produce.
But disregarding that even then, such concepts remain questionable in other areas of physics like quantum mechanics...

I think what's more important than RL science extravaganza is what this thread being in the Mass Effect section and OP's last paragraph already shows:
one should take into account only the possibilities that are somehow heard-of in the story; and at the point of the ending in ME3, time travel in any sense other than the 'usual' time-dilatation IS unheard of. I wouldn't even know why a storyteller would use this most clichéd scifi-way-out-out-of-nowhere and be proud of that.

______
In any case, kudos to OP for making me look up the Gödel and Kerr metrics again and reminding me of how rusty I've gotten about General Relativity. Blushing
This post was brought to you by lying-in-bed-waking-up-and-falling-asleep-for-3-h-to-eventually-look-up-gravitational-physics-wikis-at-4-am. Sleep 

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by demersel on Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:57 pm

That is all very fun and well, but here's the thing about imposssible things and game lore - things are completly impossible until they happen.

You say that with in Mass Effect lore time travel is impossible. Ok. There is no time travel involved in the story or events in ME1, ME2, ME3.

Time travel only comes in the conversation when we're discussing things that could happen next and in the next game. No need to write long post explaining how it is impossible - if the devs chose to use it - it will happen.

Oh, and while you both are on your high and might horse of science, please explain to me how the RGB Crucible works one more time, and how is it possible or impossible. Because that is a thing that happens in ME3.

and while you are at it - please explain how project Lazarus is possible or impossible. Because they tell you not once, not twice, and not even in one game, but in two of them that this thing is completely impossible.

Oh, and how exaclty did we kill Sovereign in ME1 and did we really? By shooting a possesed husk in the head repeatedly?

And a big one - how do the hand-wavy mass effect fields work and are even possible? Eezo you say? And what is eezo?

It is a game. A work of fiction. Things happen that are convinient to the plot.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:42 am

Well, Dem, I wasn't aware that explaining physics and how remarkable they actually are in RL, and how intricately they're tied to the science used to build the basics of the lore for Mass Effect 1 is me 'sitting on a high horse'.

I was thinking that explaining how things work on a basic level and how they are applied to the prologue paragraph would be informative and helpful for anyone here that hadn't researched or studied physics because they either didn't have the time, opportunity, or inclination to do so.

My mistake, didn't realize our forum was an education-free-zone.
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by demersel on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:52 am

You, remarkable real life physics, Crucible, explanations - go.
Please educate me. Do not hesitate.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:02 am

Re-read my first post. I explained aspects of what the Crucible is shown to do with relation to General and Special Relativity. Maybe it requires some critical thinking and some dot-connecting that I didn't realize.
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:28 am

What is element zero? It's a fictional element that allows for the manipulation of what we know of in Real Life as Dark Energy. - yes, it exists for real, as does Dark matter -

By passing a current through Eezo, which is Element Zero, people in the Mass Effect universe are capable of either raising or lowering the mass of an object in a manner that by-passes the normal laws of physics as we understand them today. It is the lynchpin upon which the Mass Effect lore is based. It by-passes the rules of General and Special relativity in the ways I outlined above in my original post.

The Crucible itself, as the war-assets and things discuss for it's tuning and the various jargon used in it's construction indicate, is a massive Eezo battery, capable of manipulating Dark Energy in the galaxy on a massive scale. -- Can I give an example on how Synthesis, Control, and Destroy work on a scientific level? Not really, because we all agree that the Literal Endings are insane and make no sense, scientifically or thematically within the context we were previously given, so asking me to prove something that doesn't make sense isn't really possible.

HOWEVER, I DID explain how the Eezo bends the laws of physics and how time is being manipulated in the endings. My explanation on how the blast-wave from the Crucible moves faster than the speed of light from each point on the galaxy map, in addition 'blast' travelling near instantaneously from the Citadel in orbit around Earth to the Charon Relay, but, since you can't read or something, I will reiterate it here.

Element Zero is being expended, with some type of electrical current; which allows the energy to pass through space at an accelerated rate, bypassing both the limitations on energy increasing mass and gravity, and also bypassing the limitation of reaching or exceeding the speed of light without tremendous expenditure of energy.

Does that answer your question? I hope so.

Now, how are physics remarkable? Well, if you understand them and try to figure out how the Universe actually works, I personally find it all quite fascinating and ... remarkable.


Last edited by CSSteele on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:36 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Fixed a double sentence)
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by TurianRebel212 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:55 am

The crucible is reaper tech- How? 

What is the only tech to be passed down from cycle to cycle? 

Mass Relays and the Citadel- reaper tech. 

What does Vendetta tell you about the crucible? 

That it's plans and additions were added by every cycle. But never complete? Or were they? 

Meaning that the schematics for the crucible is reaper tech and "code". Being that's its so easy to understand, passed down for EVERY cycle to add to it. The only tech that is universal for EVERY cycle is the citadel and Mass Relays- made by dem Reapers.

"By using it (mass relays, citadel,crucibe) you evolve along the paths we desire." In fact all of Sovereign's speech on virmire shows that the reapers or whatever have been prepping each cycle. How exactly? The Crucible. The harvests is to make new reapers- ONE. New reaper. Perfect in it's design. 

"The powers of the universe bend to me"- Harbinger. Powers of universe??? 

Gee ya think he meant time an space- relativity. 

From the opening scroll of ME1- you know the one where Shep's looking out the window- Talking about Mass Effect and the relays.

"The basis of this technology was a force that controlled the very fabric of space and time"- 'Mass Effect' tech and Relays.

Prior to Sovereign's meeting on Virmire. We (The Player and thus are avatar of this cycle) thought that Mass Relays and the citadel and the 'mass effect' technology was prothean. But it's not, it's Reaper tech and code. 

Tell me, who made the schematics for the crucible that every cycle could read? The Reapers.

What does the crucible need to be activated? 

The Citadel

Who made the Citadel? The Reapers.

Who mad the mass relays and the 'mass effect' tech that can bend space an time?

The Reapers. 

Who can bend Space and Time?

The Reapers. 


Simple. Stay in the Lore. The answers are there. 

Now back to the decision chamber and the "catalyst"-it's the Intelligence, not the catalyst- that's Shepard. The Intelligence tells you "The Paths are open". Paths- like sovereign said. 

Kai leng indoctrinated agent- "We EVOLVE or we die". Sovereign- "You evolve along the paths we desire"

Saren indoctrinated agent- "I am the pinnacle of evolution. The perfect union of man and machine. Perfect"- Gee, this sound like synthesis. 

TIM indoctrinated agent- "Control, is the means of survival"- obvious. Control option reaper option obviously. 

Shepard- "We Fight or we die". Remind me. What's the ONLY choice where Shepard lives? Yeah, thought so. 

The Reapers do not care and cannot be applied to physics as we understand them. They transcend our very understanding. They are infinite. 

As their technology is. 

Infinite. 

Thus, you cannot apply quantum physics to the Crucible, Mass Relays, or the Citadel or anything Reaper tech. It's infinite and beyond us. 




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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:09 am

Bullshit. Taking quotes from the Reapers and then sticking that Choose Wisely 'Dig deeper' idiocy into anything does -NOT- give you a free-pass to ignore the basic rules of the Universe. If you just toss everything about life and the very nature of our universe out of the window everything in the story will lose cohesion.

If you cannot stand on the rules of the world we live in, with some minor caveats and some slight changes with reasonable explanations to why they don't follow the rules as we know them, then everything falls part. You cannot just throw everything away, not when we're shown from ME1 all the way through ME3 that the Reapers BEND the laws of physics, but are still bound by them. You show me one example in all 3 games, the books, or the comics where the Reapers are IMMUNE to the laws of physics, and not merely bending them/skirting them in non-mind-fucky ways, then MAYBE I'll accept that rambling BS you just spewed, otherwise, keep that drivel out of a thread based on science. The science the lore of the game is based upon.
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by TurianRebel212 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:21 am

CSSteele wrote:Bullshit. Taking quotes from the Reapers and then sticking that Choose Wisely 'Dig deeper' idiocy into anything does -NOT- give you a free-pass to ignore the basic rules of the Universe. If you just toss everything about life and the very nature of our universe out of the window everything in the story will lose cohesion.

If you cannot stand on the rules of the world we live in, with some minor caveats and some slight changes with reasonable explanations to why they don't follow the rules as we know them, then everything falls part. You cannot just throw everything away, not when we're shown from ME1 all the way through ME3 that the Reapers BEND the laws of physics, but are still bound by them. You show me one example in all 3 games, the books, or the comics where the Reapers are IMMUNE to the laws of physics, and not merely bending them/skirting them in non-mind-fucky ways, then MAYBE I'll accept that rambling BS you just spewed, otherwise, keep that drivel out of a thread based on science. The science the lore of the game is based upon.
 

Which 'lore' are we talking about ME1? ME2? or ME3? 

The Reapers obviously evolved from game to game. They're infinite remember? 

Or do you not think they're infinite? 

And most of that 'dribble' or drivel, whatever you called it,  is IT drivel. Nothing of the "choose wisely" theory. So yeah, don't really know what you're getting at. 

My perspective was to show through connections VIA the game that the crucible is reaper tech. And thus, can warp Physics and the "powers of the universe"- Space and Time. 

Just like the Reapers. 

Oh, but I will throw you the proverbial bone- So can Leviathan- Bend Space and time- Leviathan Convo- Space. and then Manhavid- Time. 

But I'll just say what you really want to hear. 

You are absolutely correct good sir. You are smarter and more clever than others. Internet digital validation. You are a "Legend". Now please purchase more DLC to further the Legend of You. 


And Lighten up bro, it's just a game of fiction. And BioWare luvs to remind you that it is a fictional verse you are in.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by Byne on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:29 am

TR's point seems to be that the Reapers claim to be infinite and claim the forces of the universe bend to them, so we should just believe them because why would they lie?

You and dem both seem to suffer from the problem of not getting that just because something CAN happen in fiction, that doesnt mean it WILL happen, or is even remotely likely.

ME4 COULD start with the Normandy crash landing in the My Little Pony universe, but I dont exactly see that happening. Theres a difference between possible and probable.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:31 am

No, I wasn't looking for a 'You are correct' or other virtual idiotic kudos.

I was pointing out how REAL LIFE physics work and how they based the OPENING PARAGRAPH of ME1 upon both General and Special Relativity, then they went on to explain how it altered how we understood physics. I was giving a quick tutorial if you will, on what they intended.

Are the Reapers infinite? No, I don't think they are. Are the Leviathants? No I don't think they are. I think they are both arrogant and highly advanced creatures that have dominated the galaxy for eons, and are only continuing to dominate it because they kill everyone off just as they reach the cusp of matching their tech.

Your perspective was to tell me that physics and the basic building-blocks of our universe don't apply to the 'big bads' of the ME story. I got what you were saying, and everything you were spouting, I just choose to not accept that garbage. Choose Wisely had a few points in it that may be valid, but with CW 4 they jumped off of the deep end, even further than they were before. That baseless and undefined DRIVEL as I said, belongs in the Scary Door, not a front page post on real life science and how it pertains to the lore and universe that we have had the privilege of playing in.

I realize that it's a fictional universe, but it is ALSO based upon REAL LIFE SCIENCE! Trying to throw that out of the window is both asinine and idiotic.

P.S. Thanks for giving me an example where the Reapers or Leviathans proved they could actually become immune to the laws of physics and not just bend/manipulate them. Good on ya there.

EDIT: Turian, if you think they are that advanced, infinite and so far beyond us that we cannot apply what we know of the universe and science to them... you're indoctrinated, viewing them with superstitious awe. Attributing God-Like status to an arrogant creature merely because it claims you should. Might want to take a quick look at that.


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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by TurianRebel212 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:34 am

Byne wrote:TR's point seems to be that the Reapers claim to be infinite and claim the forces of the universe bend to them, so we should just believe them because why would they lie?

You and dem both seem to suffer from the problem of not getting that just because something CAN happen in fiction, that doesnt mean it WILL happen, or is even remotely likely.

ME4 COULD start with the Normandy crash landing in the My Little Pony universe, but I dont exactly see that happening. Theres a difference between possible and probable.

Oh come on, you know you would play the Shit outta a Mass Effect game set in the MLP verse. You know you would.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by TurianRebel212 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:38 am

CSSteele wrote:No, I wasn't looking for a 'You are correct' or other virtual idiotic kudos.

I was pointing out how REAL LIFE physics work and how they based the OPENING PARAGRAPH of ME1 upon both General and Special Relativity, then they went on to explain how it altered how we understood physics. I was giving a quick tutorial if you will, on what they intended.

Are the Reapers infinite? No, I don't think they are. Are the Leviathants? No I don't think they are. I think they are both arrogant and highly advanced creatures that have dominated the galaxy for eons, and are only continuing to dominate it because they kill everyone off just as they reach the cusp of matching their tech.

Your perspective was to tell me that physics and the basic building-blocks of our universe don't apply to the 'big bads' of the ME story. I got what you were saying, and everything you were spouting, I just choose to not accept that garbage. Choose Wisely had a few points in it that may be valid, but with CW 4 they jumped off of the deep end, even further than they were before. That baseless and undefined DRIVEL as I said, belongs in the Scary Door, not a front page post on real life science and how it pertains to the lore and universe that we have had the privilege of playing in.

I realize that it's a fictional universe, but it is ALSO based upon REAL LIFE SCIENCE! Trying to throw that out of the window is both asinine and idiotic.

P.S. Thanks for giving me an example where the Reapers or Leviathans proved they could actually become immune to the laws of physics and not just bend/manipulate them. Good on ya there.

"Trying to throw that out of the window is both asinine and idiotic"- BioWare did, not me. 

"baseless and undefined DRIVEL"- Kinda like IT. 

"Reapers and Leviathans proved they could actually become immune to the laws of physics"- Yes. What must go up. Must come down. Or break. Or be destroyed, or resisted. You know, stuff like that.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by Byne on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:39 am

TurianRebel212 wrote:
Oh come on, you know you would play the Shit outta a Mass Effect game set in the MLP verse. You know you would.
That is neither here nor there. Whistling 

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:41 am

So very informative.

Bioware did not take Mass Effect completely outside of science, unless you're talking the end, which, nearly everyone on this forum agrees was not real in any sense. If not, explain.

IT has plenty of evidence to support it, both within the lore and outside of it, so ... unless you're an indoctrinated literalist, this point is bogus and makes you look stupid.

The last one there... doesn't even make sense, I don't know what you're trying to do there other than be sarcastic. Non-answers don't count.
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by TurianRebel212 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:41 am

Not once is it supported or shown that Shepard can be or will or has been indoctrinated. NOT. ONE. TIME. 

It's all interpretive, speculative and symbolic. And yes, IT does use Lore- but it is shown apart from Shepard, i.e. other characters and events. 

Shepard is apart from these characters and events.

Almost, like he's viewing them through a barrier. 

And bioware did take Mass Effect outside of science or the established lore. Way. WAY before the ending. 

Here's a quick and not necessarily complete list. 

Illos.
Conduit Run
Vigil
Lazarus project
Thermal Clips
QEC's- both ME2, but later even more lore and 'science' breaking in ME3. 
Arrival.  
James Vega
The "cipher"
The "crucible"
And yes, "The Ending".

And CSsteele, anyone who has read my posts and/or threads, here or BSN, clearly could come to the conclusion that I am not an "indoctrinated literalist", lol. 

And lastly, I've stated this before, but you didn't "get it". Mass Effect is a work of fiction. And BioWare constantly and consistently reminds you in ME2 and ME3 and some in ME1 that you are in a work of fiction. 


Who are YOU in the Mass Effect series of games?

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by BlueLogic on Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:27 am

TurianRebel212 wrote:Not once is it supported or shown that Shepard can be or will or has been indoctrinated. NOT. ONE. TIME.
What are you talking about? It's never shown that Shepard can be indoctrinated? Shepard is shown to be susceptible simply because he is not shown to be different from all those who were indoctrinated in any way that would make him immune. I can hardly see the rest of your post across this chasm of irrationality you've dug in the first sentence.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:57 am

You're drinking the Choose Wisely Kool-Aid, Turian. I am not having a conversation with you any more. When you come back to the same game and same universe of lore the rest of us are playing in, maybe we can have a conversation.

Good bye.
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by TurianRebel212 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:09 am

BlueLogic wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:Not once is it supported or shown that Shepard can be or will or has been indoctrinated. NOT. ONE. TIME.
What are you talking about?  It's never shown that Shepard can be indoctrinated?  Shepard is shown to be susceptible simply because he is not shown to be different from all those who were indoctrinated in any way that would make him immune.  I can hardly see the rest of your post across this chasm of irrationality you've dug in the first sentence.
Not really that hard. It is never shown to the player ( YOU BTW, you're the player here, in a game-of fiction) that Shepard can be, has been, or will be indoctrinated. But it has been showed by:

Saren. 
Rachni
TIM
Kai Leng
Paul Grayson
Shiara
Cerberus Shock Troops
The Salarians on Virmire
The Collectors 

I'm sure there's more, but that's the jest of it. 

But not Shepard. In fact Shepard is shown being able to resist and accuse or reveal to the player that others are indoctrinated and his completely in control of his/her actions- through the narrative and what YOU see. Until..... literal interpretation here-

The Beam hit by Harby+ blood loss/shock and massive trauma- but you do have infinite ammo- (this is possible in ME1's lore with a heat sink BTW), The Citadel+Crucible+TIM=Equals control over Shepard. By what? Some sort of kinectic barrier/dominate super biotic reaper implant? Or maybe it's the Lazarus nanites and tech in Shepard from Lazarus Project? Don't really know, kinda breaks lore and suspension of Disbelief. 

See I'm proving your point here. But also, what I'm saying, is that there are multiple lore breaks and impossible events of Mass Effect that occur before the ending of ME3. Before ME3. Before ME2. Right around Ilos things go 'off' and the 'science' of Mass Effect begins to get a little blury and lore begins to break for sake of the plot- i.e. player progression. 

But we forget that in this "War" with the Reapers- (they don't think it's a war tho- Only The Harvest.) There are not 1 but 2 hyper evolved, uber sapient, highly powerful, extremely dangerous Races in this Story- The Reapers and Leviathan. That are not only capable of creating Mass Relays and Citadel but also a Highly Advance AI (The "Intelligence")- that creates super, sapient, Enormous, infinte evolved killing machines (Reapers). But can indoctrinate (Reapers) and thrall (Leviathan) organics for years. But they can also affect Space and Time. 

But Shepard is above them right? He's "immune" to these creatures and their devious ways right? 

Right. 

The thesis of the op is that Mass Effect is based on science and that you cannot ignore that science- But you see the Reapers and Leviathan are above any of that. They are infinite. 

What's funny is that people thought the Reapers could be defeated in the first place without aid of something 'infinite'- This is where the "crucible" comes in. 

It's obviously very, very old- the design I mean. 

What's older than the Reapers? 

The narrative and "truth" of Mass Effect is not symmetrical or linear. It is asymmetrical and dynamic. 

And we are just beginning. 



Or not, and Mass Effect 4 or Mass Effect shift whatever it will be, will just be a prequel or alternate character same period type of thing, In that case all of this was just speculative and fanfic, albeit very good and fun fanfic, but not based on anything. And if that happens, then I won't care about Mass Effect or BioWare ever again. 

And just because I question users on this forum doesn't mean I'm against you or don't like you or my claims or opinions are baseless- they're not, clearly. I'm just like you, another fan looking for answers.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by Steelcan on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:43 pm

Reading this thread made me lose some faith in humanity

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by Steelcan on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:50 pm

The only rule that ME consistently follows is the Rule of Cool. Also Rule of Sexy. Everything else in the universe is secondary to those.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by demersel on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:58 pm

Steelcan wrote:The only rule that ME consistently follows is the Rule of Cool.  Also Rule of Sexy.  Everything else in the universe is secondary to those.
this is a thing I totally agree with!
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by MaximizedAction on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:57 pm

Byne wrote:TR's point seems to be that the Reapers claim to be infinite and claim the forces of the universe bend to them, so we should just believe them because why would they lie?

You and dem both seem to suffer from the problem of not getting that just because something CAN happen in fiction, that doesnt mean it WILL happen, or is even remotely likely.

ME4 COULD start with the Normandy crash landing in the My Little Pony universe, but I dont exactly see that happening. Theres a difference between possible and probable.
This here.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by BlueLogic on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:21 pm

TurianRebel212 wrote:...In fact Shepard is shown being able to resist and accuse or reveal to the player that others are indoctrinated and his completely in control of his/her actions- through the narrative and what YOU see.
As is anyone who has yet to be indoctrinated.  Also, I don't think anyone has suggested that Shepard IS indoctrinated.  The point is that the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate him.  That shouldn't be a mind blowing revelation.  

TurianRebel212 wrote:...but you do have infinite ammo- (this is possible in ME1's lore with a heat sink BTW)
Or in a dream.  I don't see why CW makes such a big deal about heat sinks vs weapons that use cool down.  Seriously, who cares?  If anything can be seen as a consequence of gameplay mechanic tuning, it's this.  This, along with the loss of omnigel, is even directly mocked within the story.  Sure they came up with some lore reason for the change, but this is one place (of many) where it makes perfect sense to pull away from the in game narrative.  Otherwise you tend to be taken to ridiculous places.

TurianRebel212 wrote:The Citadel+Crucible+TIM=Equals control over Shepard. By what? Some sort of kinectic barrier/dominate super biotic reaper implant? Or maybe it's the Lazarus nanites and tech in Shepard from Lazarus Project? Don't really know, kinda breaks lore and suspension of Disbelief.
Or it could be, you know, the Reapers doing their thing.

TurianRebel212 wrote:See I'm proving your point here. But also, what I'm saying, is that there are multiple lore breaks and impossible events of Mass Effect that occur before the ending of ME3. Before ME3. Before ME2. Right around Ilos things go 'off' and the 'science' of Mass Effect begins to get a little blury and lore begins to break for sake of the plot- i.e. player progression.
I'm not sure what you're referring to specifically other than heat sinks and the like.  All I can say is, it happens.  It's unfortunate, but a narrative evolves over such a long development cycle.  Some ideas that conflict with existing lore are too cool to leave out just because it breaks the lore.  They do their best to explain it away in game, but they can't make some changes fit seamlessly.  

TurianRebel212 wrote:...But Shepard is above them right? He's "immune" to these creatures and their devious ways right? 

Right.
Why?

TurianRebel212 wrote:The thesis of the op is that Mass Effect is based on science and that you cannot ignore that science- But you see the Reapers and Leviathan are above any of that. They are infinite.
Nothing is really infinite, even in this story.  Sure, the Reapers say they're infinite.  They also say they're saving us.  Doesn't make it the truth.

TurianRebel212 wrote:The narrative and "truth" of Mass Effect is not symmetrical or linear. It is asymmetrical and dynamic.
You're going to have to explain this one, because you may as well have said "Shepard is an orange, and the Reapers eat apples".

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

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