The Mass Effect and 'Time'

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by Raistlin Majere on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:27 pm

Turian:

I am sorry, but i cannot agree with what you are saying. You are basically say that Shepard is shown to be in complete control of his actions means he cannot be indoctrinated or is not indoctrinated, but considering what we know of Indoctrination that is a massive fallacy.

Indoctrination at its core is such a sinister form of mind control because the victim does not realize they are being controlled!

This is hammered in multiple times throughout the narrative, like how Saren does not doubt himself until Shepard points out that he easily could be Indoctrinated. TIM is the same, he does not waver on his dedication and belief that he can control the Reapers, he is absolutely sure he is still opposing them even when it is blindingly obvious to everyone else what is really going on.

In short the person himself cannot realize he is Indoctrinated until someone hits him over the head with this fact, because the person believes the Reapers ideas or whatever, are his own ideas, that he reached whatever conclusion he reached by himself.

Even in the later stages of Indoctrination where the neural decay happens, which turns the person insane, he never realizes he was controlled. We have never seen an Indoctrinated person who realized they were being controlled without some outside force making this clear to them.

So Shepard being "in complete control of his actions" and thus not being able to be Indoctrinated is a fallacy, because any person Indoctrinated will to themselves seem in complete control. We may be an outside observer, but we are still seeing things through Shepard's eyes, from his perspective.

But even then it also falls flat because IT does not, at least not in the form I believe in, say that Shepard is Indoctrinated, only that he is in the final stages. The final choice could very well be the tipping point, where Shepard either falls or breaks free.

But perhaps most importantly is the fact that nothing in universe says Shepard cannot be Indoctrinated, absolutely nothing. He and his crew in fact express concern regarding indoctrination and Shepard himself show several of the symptoms associated with ongoing Indoctrination, like the nightmares.

In fact it would raise even greater problems if Shepard was immune, because there is no reason he should be. He would be the first known person ever to be immune. The mere fact that Shepard might actually break free of Indoctrination by his own will depending on the choice (as going by IT) would alone be a an accomplishment without known equal in the Mass Effect universe.

Now I am by no means saying the Reapers are truthful in all the claims they make, far from it, but Indoctrination has from start to finish been a force that corrupts, breaks and twists any person who comes into contact with it for any length of time, with only two exceptions so far, the Rachni Queen and Shiala, the Asari with the Thorian. Both of those have something which Shepard does not have though, a hive mind like connection which Shiala even says is the reason she is not succumbing to the Indoctrination which she also says she still knows is there. Even so even a hive mind like structure does not seem flawless as evidenced by the fact that the Rachni by all indications were Indoctrinated and sent to war.


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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:32 pm

I don't consider Shepard to be immune at all, only resistant.

And barring a future revealed plot device, it's gone beyond healing. Now, he fights or he dies.

It's just only through fighting, that he and the galaxy stands even a remote chance of succeeding against the Reapers, instead in co-operation with them.


My personal theory though, is that Shepard in fact DOES have a rudimentary form of this hive mind structure (potential of human biotics, neurology, and evolution), and is subconsciously working it towards those he meets and allies himself with.

But... "Even so even a hive mind like structure does not seem flawless as evidenced by the fact that the Rachni by all indications were Indoctrinated and sent to war."

Let's make sure Liara doesn't turn into a Banshee, shall be? :)

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by DSharrah on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:18 pm

Not to stir up a hornet's nest but we do "see" (hear about may be more accurate) a Reaper do something that is beyond our comprehension of physics...all the way back in ME 1, on Virmire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDjVMJyaNFU&feature=player_detailpage#t=283

Listen to what Joker says...

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by Maximus on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:19 pm

Sovereign: "Our numbers will darken the skies of every world"

Lol, nope! ;>

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:00 am

DSharrah wrote:Not to stir up a hornet's nest but we do "see" (hear about may be more accurate) a Reaper do something that is beyond our comprehension of physics...all the way back in ME 1, on Virmire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDjVMJyaNFU&feature=player_detailpage#t=283

Listen to what Joker says...
That's not stirring up anything, in fact it's furthering the discussion I created the thread for, so thank you.

Now, Joker says, and I'm quoting, "I don't know what you did down there, but that thing just pulled a turn that would sheer any of our ships in half." The codex and in game evidence tells us that the Reapers have MASSIVE Eezo cores, capable of drawing and manipulating far more dark energy than the other races are capable of with our current tech and amounts of Eezo they're willing to use on a single vessel. That is still more of a bending the laws of physics, within the capabilities that I outlined in my previous mentions of science. My opinion of course.
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by NebuchadnezzaRT on Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:58 pm

Thank you for directing me to this CS!

50% was pure and hard logic fail by some certain individual that was quite hilarious!

the other 50% was a very well thought out dissertation not only on the "time and space" bending qualities of Eezo but also the physics behind it all. And you managed to condense it into very layman's terms (and people still got confused Whistling ) Great work!

About what DSharrah posted I believe what happens is more or less very literal. Sovereign pulled a turn that would rip any other ships in half. You don't need to assume there is a dilation effect going on there (although it is just as likely). Just imagine a ship in space turning bow at 90 degrees, straight up. I'm sure an Alliance vessel could do it, just slowly, so as not to put stress on the metal that would split it. Maybe the Reaper ship is composed of a materiel so that such turns at such high speeds would not damage it.
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:24 pm

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote:Thank you for directing me to this CS!

50% was pure and hard logic fail by some certain individual that was quite hilarious!

the other 50% was a very well thought out dissertation not only on the "time and space" bending qualities of Eezo but also the physics behind it all. And you managed to condense it into very layman's terms (and people still got confused Whistling ) Great work!

About what DSharrah posted I believe what happens is more or less very literal. Sovereign pulled a turn that would rip any other ships in half. You don't need to assume there is a dilation effect going on there (although it is just as likely). Just imagine a ship in space turning bow at 90 degrees, straight up. I'm sure an Alliance vessel could do it, just slowly, so as not to put stress on the metal that would split it. Maybe the Reaper ship is composed of a materiel so that such turns at such high speeds would not damage it.
Oh, that is most likely possible, as the Reaper ships are highly advanced, both in construction materials as well as their other systems. But, what I was getting at is that with their larger cores, better understanding of Eezo drives and the 'Mass Effect' they create, it's possible that the Reapers can make turns and such in ways none of our ships can handle because of it.

Take, for instance, the fact that Reapers and their Sovereign-class dreadnaughts can enter Earth's gravity, or any other earth-like planet, without issue. As it stands, the game tells us that the current cycles dreadnaughts are in-capable of entering atmosphere. -- We'll put aside the class/discrepancy debate over the cruiser/dreadnaught in the ME3 prologue, as it was said it was an accident, but if we really want to keep it, It's very possible that it was a newer model with a much larger eezo core. *shrugs*. What I meant by 'bending the laws of physics' is just that they're using the eezo/mass effect drives to cheat with science.

Also, isn't there a codex entry about a turian fleet attacking the Reapers from behind with a flanking maneuver, and it says something along the lines of them being able to make sharp, highly-improbable turns, but doing so lowers their mass to the point they become extremely weakened and easy to take down? I've read it/Heard it somewhere in the past several months.

Anyway, glad you liked it, and I'm glad it made sense!
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by Maximus on Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:09 am

The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.

Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by NebuchadnezzaRT on Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:33 am

Ah I see what you are saying about the "bending" haha. I wish we could get more examples of what we talk about on here from ingame. I would love for a better understanding of eezo cores and ship drives and all sorts of things. But I guess all the necessary information is available to us in the Codex or dialogue.
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by CSSteele on Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:36 am

Maximus wrote:The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.

Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.
This, exactly, thanks Max.
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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by Rifneno on Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:31 am

DSharrah wrote:Not to stir up a hornet's nest but we do "see" (hear about may be more accurate) a Reaper do something that is beyond our comprehension of physics...all the way back in ME 1, on Virmire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDjVMJyaNFU&feature=player_detailpage#t=283

Listen to what Joker says...
What, about a turn that would sheer their ships in half?  That just means that a Reapers' hull is much stronger.  Big surprise there.  It's probably made of carbon nanotubes or something.

OP was fantastic.  Fuck everyone who gives pause to that Choose Wisely bullshit.  And demersel.

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Re: The Mass Effect and 'Time'

Post by dorktainian on Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:27 am

time and relative dimensions in space.

for every action there has to be an equal and opposite reaction.

do the laws of physics and time even apply to reapers? Do the reapers even exist in our space time?



anyone missing a tardis?

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