The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

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The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by DSharrah on Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:58 pm

By this point, most are aware of the motivations of particular characters during the events leading up to battle and the battle itself.  But during a recent replay of DAO I was reminded of at least one lingering question that is still unanswered (at least to my knowledge)...and has been something that I wondered about since the first time that I played.  A quick set-up of the events just for clarity sake...


  • You attend a pre-battle meeting and recieve the assignment of lighting the beacon that is supposed to call  Loghain and his troops to the field.
  • You make your way to the tower to discover that it has been attacked by darkspawn
  • You make your way to the top of the tower, clearing darkspawn as you go
  • Get to the top light the beacon, get overwhelmed, Loghain retreats and you are saved by Flemeth


This sets up the general game.  But the lingering question that I have had forever, is simply - was Loghain in some way conspiring with the darkspawn?  And if not, then how did the darkspawn know that the tower was such an important target to take during the battle?

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by BlackoutBasement on Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:08 am

I'm pretty sure that he was not working with the Darkspawn. I'm also pretty sure Loghain knew that the battle could not be won. He comes off as the biggest jerk in Ferelden- but his resolve has always been keeping Ferelden its own nation. Loghain was arguably the reason why Orlais was defeated, he's a brilliant strategist, and he's not afraid of making the tough choices. (That's one important thing about him) and that's why he is a big jerk but he just can't let go of Ferelden. I sometimes think of him as an ultimate "Renegade" like from ME. He's made mistakes and he admits that. but he seems hell bent on keeping Ferelden independent, especially from Orlais.

The thing is, Loghain didn't argue with Cailan for no reason, he did not want Cailan at the front lines because he knew that the battle was suicide and Cailan was trying to build his own legacy. Cailan wouldn't listen and instead of listening to him he rushed in hoping to capture his moment of glory. It may explain why he kept his forces at bay "ready to flank." far enough away to ensure his forces would remain in strength.He may have been forced to come up with that plan given Cailan's anticipation to jump into the wolves.
"I'd hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding with the fabled Grey Wardens against a tainted god! But I suppose this will have to do." King Cailan

So, Loghain decided that instead of throwing all of their forces at the Darkspawn and into a lost battle, he kept his platoons back and held on to them.

When you talk to Cailen, creating his own moment of glory was the number one thing on his mind. That was his downfall. I liked too Cailen too. The keep being overrun I believe just reinforces the point that the Darkspawn numbers were just so much more staggering than anyone else expected. Except Loghain. (Even Duncan admits that they are doing so well keeping Darkspawn back was because of Loghain)  Also, listening to some banter from the solders after first arriving there; (the man and woman on the left I believe next to the cliff behind the archers,) they mention that the Darkspawn numbers just seem to keep growing and growing. Especially the Ogre that was reported and had them on edge. Either Loghain ordered his best soldiers to return to him, and leaving the keep wide open or the soldiers were just overwhelmed, I don't know.

But Loghain's downfall was that he believed that he could save Ferelden on his own, like he did before. He didn't know that the Grey Wardens were the only ones capable of stopping a blight. Had he know, then I think some things would have gone down differently. At the same time Loghain had good reasons for not putting all of his trust into the Warden. The last Blight was 400 years ago- Wardens were "not really needed" to the surface anymore and Grey Wardens keep their secrets. Not to mention the war wth Orlais that only ended around 20 years ago keeping tensions high.Also his mistrust of Orlais screwed him as well- had he allowed the Orlesian Wardens to help that would also change things.

and wow it's midnight. I shouldn't have stayed up. >_>
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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by ZerebusPrime on Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:47 am

On a more sinister note, when you first ask about the Tower of Ishall you hear that Loghain's men had found and were exploring lower chambers.  The darkspawn could have been baited into the tower, or Loghain could have found out that the tower had "only just" become vulnerable and put two and two together.  The darkspawn are somewhat predictable, after all.  I do not believe that Loghain would have been an option to join the Grey Wardens if he were secretly in cahoots with the Archdemon.

That handles the OP question, yet I feel compelled to continue so please bear with me for a moment.

Return to Ostagar lays Loghain's motivations out more clearly, assuming you take Loghain with you on that DLC mission.  Once you piece together the vanilla game rumors, the dlc letters, and Loghain's reactions, it becomes apparent that Queen Anora may be barren and that Cailin was flirting with the empress of Orlais so that he could ditch Anora and pull a Henry VIII.  The result would have been devastating for Loghain's daughter and would have put Orleasian nobility back into power in Ferelden, and Loghain could stomach neither one.

Point of fact, in the Awakening expansion, if Loghain is still alive he shows up briefly at Vigil's Keep.  If the Warden Commander married Anora, Loghain will mention that his daughter was "horrified" when he mentioned the prospect of an heir to her.  He then urges the Warden not to wait much longer.

So there it is.  Loghain wasn't working with the darkspawn, Cailan was being foolish, they had been arguing about the queen, and Loghain found himself unwilling to save a king determined to oust Anora and undo everything Loghain had fought for in the last war.  Loghain definitely knew that the tower was vulnerable to attack from below and deliberately left it undermanned ("I have a few men stationed there").  Then Uldred, who we know is in Loghain's pocket, offers to singlehandedly be the Tower of Ishall beacon just in case the darkspawn don't attack it (he's the one who says "the tower is unnecessary") so Loghain can be certain that the signal is never sent.  And all the while, Loghain has already arranged for Jowan to be in place to poison Arl Eamon, who, btw, has links to Orlesian nobility and may thus have been conspiring with Cailan to ditch Anora given how adamant he is later about continuing the Therin bloodline and deposing Anora*.  Convoluted, no?

Whether or not the battle was winnable by way of Loghain's flanking the darkspawn is a matter of debate.  There were a LOT of darkspawn and Ostagar's entrenched positions were felled rather quickly.

NOTE: I have not read any of the novels.  If anything I have written is in error, please point it out.  I would prefer to have my lore straight.

*If I recall correctly, Eaman finds the prospect of Allistair marrying Anora to be less than ideal.  The only outcome of the Landsmeet that he seems to show strong preference to is putting Allistair on the throne and leaving room for a new queen.
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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by DSharrah on Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:20 pm

As I said in the OP...motivations of the involved parties at this point I thought were pretty clear...and the two responders have done an amazing job of putting those in context.

But the question (at least for me still lingers)...would such a brillant strategist really leave a chance that his army could be outflanked by a surprise attack (ie the threat of Darkspawn taking the tower)?

And to think that Loghain could have guessed at the numbers of the horde when later he openly questions whether it is a true blight doesn't seem to add up...either he knew and downplayed the threat, to make his plan more believable (and thus his retreat that much more damnable) or he didn't know, and his stragety was uncalculated and faulty.

I get that Return to Ostagar was meant to create a more compelling choice b/w Loghain and Alistair...but for me, I still wonder about his complicity with the fall of the tower.

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by ZerebusPrime on Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:56 pm

Like I was trying to say late, late, late last night, the tower falling was probably a gamble with a stacked deck.  The rest, including his dismissal of the wardens, is politics.  Loghain isn't omniscient; he's just very good at playing the odds.  I wouldn't read anything else into it.
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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by Guest on Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:38 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:Like I was trying to say late, late, late last night, the tower falling was probably a gamble with a stacked deck.  The rest, including his dismissal of the wardens, is politics.  Loghain isn't omniscient; he's just very good at playing the odds.  I wouldn't read anything else into it.
I agree. Loghain knew the score, and just reacted to it badly. He's a tortured character, but not so sympathetic that you easily ever get on his side.

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by Byne on Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:41 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:Return to Ostagar lays Loghain's motivations out more clearly, assuming you take Loghain with you on that DLC mission.  Once you piece together the vanilla game rumors, the dlc letters, and Loghain's reactions, it becomes apparent that Queen Anora may be barren and that Cailin was flirting with the empress of Orlais so that he could ditch Anora and pull a Henry VIII.  The result would have been devastating for Loghain's daughter and would have put Orleasian nobility back into power in Ferelden, and Loghain could stomach neither one.
I always thought justifying Loghain's paranoia about the Orlesians was the dumbest thing RtO did. It feels exactly like Gaider retconning it to try and make Loghain and Cailan more gray instead of black and white. Seems like Gaider realized almost no one sided with Loghain so wanted to make Cailan kind of a dick too.

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by Steelcan on Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:59 am

Loghain ftw. And I never even played Return to Ostagar

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by Byne on Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:50 am

One reason I never bought the whole "Cailan is gonna ditch Anora and hook up with the Empress of Orlais!" stuff from RtO is that Cailan never showed any signs of being intelligent enough to pull off that kind of political maneuvering. Its completely out of character for him.

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by RavenEyry on Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:38 am

Byne wrote:One reason I never bought the whole "Cailan is gonna ditch Anora and hook up with the Empress of Orlais!" stuff from RtO is that Cailan never showed any signs of being intelligent enough to pull off that kind of political maneuvering. Its completely out of character for him.
Maybe 'flirty' is his default mode when dealing with noble women and their was no master plan behind it?

I can imagine him as one of those people that brags about his muscles to anyone who will listen.
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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by DSharrah on Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:39 pm

RavenEyry wrote:
Byne wrote:One reason I never bought the whole "Cailan is gonna ditch Anora and hook up with the Empress of Orlais!" stuff from RtO is that Cailan never showed any signs of being intelligent enough to pull off that kind of political maneuvering. Its completely out of character for him.
Maybe 'flirty' is his default mode when dealing with noble women and their was no master plan behind it?

I can imagine him as one of those people that brags about his muscles to anyone who will listen.
I agree, I don't think Cailan would be the mastermind...Eamon on the other hand...but he does not strike me as a guy that would do that, he seems to have a lot of respect for Loghain - until Loghain tries to kill him, then its all bets are off.

I guess my biggest problem with the sige of Ostagar is that it seems to paint Loghain as both brillant and short-sighted...I can understand that his fear/hatred for Orlais blinding him and affecting his judgement, but at the risk of what he holds dearest (Ferelden) falling to a blight - I just can't believe that he would be stubborn enough to think that he could win against the horde w/o as much help as possible.  There just seems to be something more sinister going on...even if its not true, thats the impression that I get every time I play the game.

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:10 pm

Bear in mind that when you first arrive at Ostagar, Cailan says that they've already won three battles against the darkspawn.  Based on that alone, Loghain may have reason to believe that the darkspawn can be beaten down again once he rallies the country.

And at that very moment, the Grey Wardens of Orlais and their vast entourage of chevaliers and support troops were approaching the Ferelden border.  Once they crossed over, in Loghain's likely calculus, there would be no stopping the Orlesians from re-exerting their influence over Ferelden.  Time was against Loghain and that forced him to take a reckless gamble.

At least that's my take on it.

Or hey, maybe there's a pride demon involved.
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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by DSharrah on Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:16 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:Bear in mind that when you first arrive at Ostagar, Cailan says that they've already won three battles against the darkspawn.  Based on that alone, Loghain may have reason to believe that the darkspawn can be beaten down again once he rallies the country.

And at that very moment, the Grey Wardens of Orlais and their vast entourage of chevaliers and support troops were approaching the Ferelden border.  Once they crossed over, in Loghain's likely calculus, there would be no stopping the Orlesians from re-exerting their influence over Ferelden.  Time was against Loghain and that forced him to take a reckless gamble.

At least that's my take on it.

Or hey, maybe there's a pride demon involved.
Yeah...I get it.  I understand all the story reasons behind having Loghain acting the way he did...its just for me that's not enough to explain the way I "feel" every time I play the game...like I said, I "feel" like there is something more "sinister" going on...maybe there is a pride demon involved...it does seem like they are an inordinant number of people that comment that "I know Loghain, I can't believe that he would do that!".

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by Guest on Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:00 pm

DSharrah wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:Bear in mind that when you first arrive at Ostagar, Cailan says that they've already won three battles against the darkspawn.  Based on that alone, Loghain may have reason to believe that the darkspawn can be beaten down again once he rallies the country.

And at that very moment, the Grey Wardens of Orlais and their vast entourage of chevaliers and support troops were approaching the Ferelden border.  Once they crossed over, in Loghain's likely calculus, there would be no stopping the Orlesians from re-exerting their influence over Ferelden.  Time was against Loghain and that forced him to take a reckless gamble.

At least that's my take on it.

Or hey, maybe there's a pride demon involved.
Yeah...I get it.  I understand all the story reasons behind having Loghain acting the way he did...its just for me that's not enough to explain the way I "feel" every time I play the game...like I said, I "feel" like there is something more "sinister" going on...maybe there is a pride demon involved...it does seem like they are an inordinant number of people that comment that "I know Loghain, I can't believe that he would do that!".

OK. That would be alright. If they revealed it in DA:I. But really, I don't think so.

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by Master Blaster on Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:40 am

After reading the comics Loghain is just a bad ass, yet an asshole. Him pulling the retreat at Ostegar was of his own doing. He knew the tower was going to be overrunned, however his hate treated towards the wardens runs deeper than you think. Did you know two grey wardens, plus a group of mages helped the Architect, and started the fifth  blight? Not to mention Flemeth TOLD Maric while Loghain was there, that Loghain will one day betray the young prince " Calien" and that another Blight is coming.

So ya Loghain had his reasons. Also he mentions Maric almost the whole time in DA:O. The guy spent two years out on seas looking for Maric. ALso he mentions to the Warden that the Warden reminds him of Maric when they were young.

ALso the whole Orlisions thing ya honestly I can understand Loghain. I mean they were enslaved by the Orlisions, and the fact that most of the army was in the south rather than up in the North was very bad. The Orlision could teak the capital along with his daughter in it. Now what is funny is that his parinoa got the best of him and he started to fuck up a lot.

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by Rifneno on Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:32 pm

Conspiring with the darkspawn? No. The darkspawn simply don't conspire with anyone. They aren't a sapient species. There is another possibility however. Loghain's men were the ones holding the tower before that point, and wouldn't let anyone in. It's entirely possible that Loghain knew about that tunnel (in fact, I'm not sure how you could miss it) and hid its existence from the others. So he knew the darkspawn would overrun that tower and the light would be delayed, giving him excuse to retreat with his men. This is further supported by the fact that he tries to convince Cailan to let his men be in charge of lighting the beacon instead of just letting the Warden whelps handle the simple, non-combat task.

Byne wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:Return to Ostagar lays Loghain's motivations out more clearly, assuming you take Loghain with you on that DLC mission.  Once you piece together the vanilla game rumors, the dlc letters, and Loghain's reactions, it becomes apparent that Queen Anora may be barren and that Cailin was flirting with the empress of Orlais so that he could ditch Anora and pull a Henry VIII.  The result would have been devastating for Loghain's daughter and would have put Orleasian nobility back into power in Ferelden, and Loghain could stomach neither one.
I always thought justifying Loghain's paranoia about the Orlesians was the dumbest thing RtO did. It feels exactly like Gaider retconning it to try and make Loghain and Cailan more gray instead of black and white. Seems like Gaider realized almost no one sided with Loghain so wanted to make Cailan kind of a dick too.

That's because that's exactly what it was. RtO was nothing but retcons in respect to Cailan and Loghain.

In vanilla DAO, Loghain did what he did as an evil power grab. That's a statement of fact. The virtually omniscient Flemeth responds to "why did he do it?" by saying men's hearts hold darker evils than even the darkspawn. This was after she warned Maric that Loghain would betray him again and again, the greatest betrayal being after he (Maric) is gone. Even Cauthrien is shocked by the order to pull out, meaning the battle wasn't yet lost in her eyes. Morrigan and Alistair is actually perhaps the most telling. If there was even a possibility that Loghain actually made the right call and wasn't just evil, Morrigan would enjoy rubbing it in Alistair's face so much that she might spontaneously orgasm. But she always just lets it go when Alistair haterants about Loghain even though she butts in and makes a snide remark if you offer a beggar a piece of bread. Because in the base game, Loghain was just evil. That's all there is to it.

But along comes RtO, and suddenly the battle for Ostagar was so hilariously lost that even Cailan knew it was literally a mass suicide and went ahead with it for no apparent reason. One wonders how he was even planning to sell out his country to Orlais when he was planning to lead a mass suicide of Ferelden's entire military beforehand. And everyone, including Alistair, just goes along with it like it's a matter of fact that Ostagar was a mass suicide and Loghain was totally right to pull his troops out.

David Gaider makes me fucking sick.

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by HYR 2.1 on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:00 am

Even without RtO or DA2's contributions to the plot...


Loghain repeatedly warned Cailan against recklessly charging the darkspawn at Ostagar. Cailan decided not to listen. I have no reason to believe Cailan wouldn't be alive and well in the DA world had he just held off on his glory-seeking charge.

And while a lot of people love to blame Loghain for trying to kill the Grey Wardens while nobody knew the Wardens were necessary to end the 'blight, even Loghain noted that there had been no dragon sightings before the battle (this when the topic of the Archdemon was brought up at the war-council). Ostagar would not have ended the blight; the Archdemon wasn't there. Cailan brushed this off by saying "Well that's what you're here for, Dunkin!" (Duncan responds to this like: uhh... yeah).

Now, Alistair wasn't at the war-council, so his ignorance can be somewhat forgiven. The Warden, though, should have seen what fate Cailan brought on himself (personally, I knew he was an idiot before he even opened his mouth) whilst dragging Duncan and the rest of the GW order along with him. I sure can't blame Loghain for trying to cut his losses.
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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by Master Blaster on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:08 am

HYR 2.1 wrote:Even without RtO or DA2's contributions to the plot...


Loghain repeatedly warned Cailan against recklessly charging the darkspawn at Ostagar. Cailan decided not to listen. I have no reason to believe Cailan wouldn't be alive and well in the DA world had he just held off on his glory-seeking charge.

And while a lot of people love to blame Loghain for trying to kill the Grey Wardens while nobody knew the Wardens were necessary to end the 'blight, even Loghain noted that there had been no dragon sightings before the battle (this when the topic of the Archdemon was brought up at the war-council). Ostagar would not have ended the blight; the Archdemon wasn't there. Cailan brushed this off by saying "Well that's what you're here for, Dunkin!" (Duncan responds to this like: uhh... yeah).

Now, Alistair wasn't at the war-council, so his ignorance can be somewhat forgiven. The Warden, though, should have seen what fate Cailan brought on himself (personally, I knew he was an idiot before he even opened his mouth) whilst dragging Duncan and the rest of the GW order along with him. I sure can't blame Loghain for trying to cut his losses.

To be fair though Cailan had a good heart and he was somewhat taking things seriously, yet he had a mind of a child but he understood the threat to say at least. Loghain on the other hand let his HATE towards the Orlesions, and the " Oh the Wardens" thing get the best of him. IF he would have put aside his hate and gone with the plan and maybe then things would have not turned out so bad. Yet sadly this did not happen. Loghain left thousands of men and woman to die and ya because of Cailins foolishness but Loghain had a choice and he choosed to run and believe he can defeat the blight without the Wardens because Cailin praised the Wardens.

So no both are idiots, yet Loghain makes the hard choices, while Cailin has a good heart. And just because there is not a dragon in sight Loghain should have known better. As A general he should always take note of somethings may not look what they seem. In this case the Archdemon may paper and if I just say " "well there is no dragon in sight...." it would lower ones guard down. Loghain got lucky it did not appear but if it did.....I am sure loghain would have either ran or gone into battle. However most likely he would have ran.

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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by Rifneno on Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:17 am

Master Blaster wrote:To be fair though Cailan had a good heart and he was somewhat taking things seriously, yet he had a mind of a child but he understood the threat to say at least. Loghain on the other hand let his HATE towards the Orlesions, and the " Oh the Wardens" thing get the best of him. IF he would have put aside his hate and gone with the plan and maybe then things would have not turned out so bad. Yet sadly this did not happen. Loghain left thousands of men and woman to die and ya because of Cailins foolishness but Loghain had a choice and he choosed to run and believe he can defeat the blight without the Wardens because Cailin praised the Wardens.

So no both are idiots, yet Loghain makes the hard choices, while Cailin has a good heart. And just because there is not a dragon in sight Loghain should have known better. As A general he should always take note of somethings may not look what they seem. In this case the Archdemon may paper and if I just say " "well there is no dragon in sight...." it would lower ones guard down. Loghain got lucky it did not appear but if it did.....I am sure loghain would have either ran or gone into battle. However most likely he would have ran.

Loghain doesn't make the "hard choices," he makes the "evil motherfucker" choices. Like selling his own citizens into Tevinter slavery for gold. No man who does that is worthy to live, to let alone lead. Period. End of story.

Loghain did what he did as a power grab, nothing more or less. The apparently omniscient Flemeth says as much. She said as much years before it happened, to Maric. This more than outweighs any filthy synthesizer's laughable arguments about how it's okay to mercilessly persecute a faction if you don't know you need them.

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Rifneno
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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by HYR 2.1 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:28 pm

Master Blaster wrote:To be fair though Cailan had a good heart

Of course he did, all children do.

and he was somewhat taking things seriously,

No he wasn't. It was all a game to him. He also wasn't convinced this was a true Blight.

IF he would have put aside his hate and gone with the plan and maybe then things would have not turned out so bad.

Yup, it would have gone worse -- even more people would have died for no real gain.

Loghain left thousands of men and woman to die and ya because of Cailins foolishness but Loghain had a choice and he choosed to run and believe he can defeat the blight without the Wardens because Cailin praised the Wardens.

On the contrary, Loghain prevented the deaths of those he pulled back.

Those that charged and died in the initial wave are on Cailan's head.

Ostagar was only a "loss" in the sense that the Darkspawn weren't stopped there. If they had been stopped, but the ensuing fight weakened Fereldan's army too greatly for them to vince the Archdemon later, then the "victory" would not have been worth the cost. Better to take a loss. Winning a battle =/= winning a war.


And just because there is not a dragon in sight Loghain should have known better. As A general he should always take note of somethings may not look what they seem. In this case the Archdemon may paper and if I just say " "well there is no dragon in sight...." it would lower ones guard down. Loghain got lucky it did not appear but if it did.....I am sure loghain would have either ran or gone into battle. However most likely he would have ran.

Maybe, but I doubt they simply "missed" a dragon.

Duncan's hesitant response to Cailan about finding the Archdemon wasn't exactly reassuring, either, but he wasn't about to say "no" to the king -- the Grey Wardens' most important ally.



Rifneno wrote:Loghain did what he did as a power grab, nothing more or less.

The same Loghain who repatedly protested Cailan against charging off?

No, Loghain is no politician. His focus was on the war while Howe handled political issues. You take the war away and Loghain is left with no motive to rule. And then there's the fact that his daughter -- whom he is vocally very supportive of -- is the nation's Queen anyway. In peacetime, Anora would have ruled as normal.

Loghain merely wanted to see the war through.


This more than outweighs any filthy synthesizer's laughable arguments about how it's okay to mercilessly persecute a faction if you don't know you need them.

You can speak to me directly, you know. Or have you -- like many others -- learned to avoid engaging me, because you realize you're outmatched in any argument with ole H?

Anyway, I fully expected your response here. I didn't say nor imply that any persecution was okay, but the past has shown that you're quick to these assumptions based on your 1-dimensional grasp of "good" and "bad" ("nice" and "not nice" respectively). Why stop now?
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HYR 2.1
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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by CoolioThane on Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:17 pm

HYR 2.1 wrote:
Master Blaster wrote:To be fair though Cailan had a good heart

Of course he did, all children do.

and he was somewhat taking things seriously,

No he wasn't. It was all a game to him. He also wasn't convinced this was a true Blight.

IF he would have put aside his hate and gone with the plan and maybe then things would have not turned out so bad.

Yup, it would have gone worse -- even more people would have died for no real gain.

Loghain left thousands of men and woman to die and ya because of Cailins foolishness but Loghain had a choice and he choosed to run and believe he can defeat the blight without the Wardens because Cailin praised the Wardens.

On the contrary, Loghain prevented the deaths of those he pulled back.

Those that charged and died in the initial wave are on Cailan's head.

Ostagar was only a "loss" in the sense that the Darkspawn weren't stopped there. If they had been stopped, but the ensuing fight weakened Fereldan's army too greatly for them to vince the Archdemon later, then the "victory" would not have been worth the cost. Better to take a loss. Winning a battle =/= winning a war.


And just because there is not a dragon in sight Loghain should have known better. As A general he should always take note of somethings may not look what they seem. In this case the Archdemon may paper and if I just say " "well there is no dragon in sight...." it would lower ones guard down. Loghain got lucky it did not appear but if it did.....I am sure loghain would have either ran or gone into battle. However most likely he would have ran.

Maybe, but I doubt they simply "missed" a dragon.

Duncan's hesitant response to Cailan about finding the Archdemon wasn't exactly reassuring, either, but he wasn't about to say "no" to the king -- the Grey Wardens' most important ally.



Rifneno wrote:Loghain did what he did as a power grab, nothing more or less.

The same Loghain who repatedly protested Cailan against charging off?

No, Loghain is no politician. His focus was on the war while Howe handled political issues. You take the war away and Loghain is left with no motive to rule. And then there's the fact that his daughter -- whom he is vocally very supportive of -- is the nation's Queen anyway. In peacetime, Anora would have ruled as normal.

Loghain merely wanted to see the war through.


This more than outweighs any filthy synthesizer's laughable arguments about how it's okay to mercilessly persecute a faction if you don't know you need them.

You can speak to me directly, you know. Or have you -- like many others -- learned to avoid engaging me, because you realize you're outmatched in any argument with ole H?

Anyway, I fully expected your response here. I didn't say nor imply that any persecution was okay, but the past has shown that you're quick to these assumptions based on your 1-dimensional grasp of "good" and "bad" ("nice" and "not nice" respectively). Why stop now?

Arrogance is not a pretty trait

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CoolioThane
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Re: The Battle at Ostagar, Lingering Questions

Post by Rifneno on Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:18 pm


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Remember folks.  We didn't get A, B, C endings.  We got A, A, A endings.
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