A Question About Asari

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A Question About Asari

Post by DSharrah on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:11 pm

First a fair warning...this may quickly venture off to scary door type talk even if that is not the original intention (and if needed please feel free to move the thread over there).

So I have had my thoughts on the origins of the Asari for awhile...and alot of how I perceive their role in the galaxy is based around the idea that the Leviathans are searching for a way to "defeat" the Reaper's.  Within the Prothean Cycle they fostered a united galaxy through an empirical rule and failed.  So with this cycle they are attempting to embrace the diversity that the galaxy holds but still fostering unity.  This is primarily achieved by influencing the Protheans to uplift as many of the younger species as possible...a practice that is focused and refined with the Asari.  This much we can ascertain (well to be honest, at least the Prothean involvement - the Leviathan involvement is speculation on my part) from listening to the banter that happens between Liara and Javik on Thessia.  And then during the confrontation back on the Normandy, Javik even explains (if you go paragon) that the reason that the Protheans did all that they did was they thought the Asari would be able to succeed where they failed.  You can make what you will of these statements - but I think that it is a hint at the idea that the cycle would happen again...

All of this speculating being said...and thinking about the "uplifting" that the Protheans did for the Asari...why weren't the Asari "harvested" during the Prothean cycle?

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by Raistlin Majere on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:26 pm

From what I understand the uplifting was done mostly by leaving artifacts and other objects which might help the fledgling Asari society develop quicker. But that is just my guess.

Also just a question...why are people constantly linking the Asari and the Leviathans? Is it because of that cave painting?

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by TurianRebel212 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:30 pm

They weren't harvested cause they weren't an "advanced organic civilization, that was at the apex of it's existence". 

Remember Reapers ONLY kill what can threaten them- Advanced societies. They leave the "lesser" species alone to "Advance along the paths we desire". Through their technology- Mass Effect technology, Mass Relays, Citadel. 

Or the Asari could be "Something More".

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by dorktainian on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:33 pm

i dont like the jump in logic that our friend turbo jerk made in that the asari have existed forever basically. I can understand it in a way, but then again it seems strange. Also the fact that Javik seems familiar with every race he happens to come across doesnt seem very legit.

Lets assume that The asari have been around for a very long time. What would be the purpose of the asari in the long term scheme of things? A single sex race who just so happen to be able to enthrall the other races into thinking they are attractive or even that they look like their own race.

Now the leap in logic here is that Leviathan is behind the asari. Thanks TJ. Surely if anyone is behind the asari it would be the reapers? I suggested before that maybe they are cursed to live forever and witness the reaper cycles. But thats where TJ's assumption into the asari actually makes sense in a way.

I have stated imo a similarity with Medusa - who was cursed. Maybe they are cursed to be beautiful for eternity.

As to why they wernt harvested.... they still serve their purpose.


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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by DSharrah on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:39 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:From what I understand the uplifting was done mostly by leaving artifacts and other objects which might help the fledgling Asari society develop quicker. But that is just my guess.

Also just a question...why are people constantly linking the Asari and the Leviathans? Is it because of that cave painting?
Well the connection that I making is based on the idea that the Leviathans choose a dominant species to be their "avatar" just as the Reapers choose a species to become a new capital ship...My belief that the Protheans were that choice is based on the assumption that the orb on Eletania in ME 1 was Prothean tech, but that with the Leviathan DLC we clearly learn is Leviathan tech...from that point it is my speculation that the Leviathans influenced the Protheans...who just happened to influence the Asari...

As for the Protheans involvement with the Asari, Javik's banter indicates that they did extensive genetic modifying to help make the Asari biotic...that seems to be a little more involvement then just leaving an artifact...

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by DSharrah on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:42 pm

TurianRebel212 wrote:They weren't harvested cause they weren't an "advanced organic civilization, that was at the apex of it's existence". 

Remember Reapers ONLY kill what can threaten them- Advanced societies. They leave the "lesser" species alone to "Advance along the paths we desire". Through their technology- Mass Effect technology, Mass Relays, Citadel. 

Or the Asari could be "Something More".
But that is not the tactic that the Reapers are using in this cycle, despite what Reaperbieber says...I remember that being a point of some discussion back in the good lod days...and besides, listening to the banter with Javik on Thessia gives the impression that the Asari were beyond being a "lesser" species.

As for the "something more", I am not sure that I completely buy that part of CW.

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by DSharrah on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:45 pm

dork wrote:i dont like the jump in logic that our friend turbo jerk made in that the asari have existed forever basically.  I can understand it in a way, but then again it seems strange.  Also the fact that Javik seems familiar with every race he happens to come across doesnt seem very legit.

Lets assume that The asari have been around for a very long time.  What would be the purpose of the asari in the long term scheme of things?  A single sex race who just so happen to be able to enthrall the other races into thinking they are attractive or even that they look like their own race.

Now the leap in logic here is that Leviathan is behind the asari.  Thanks TJ.  Surely if anyone is behind the asari it would be the reapers?  I suggested before that maybe they are cursed to live forever and witness the reaper cycles.  But thats where TJ's assumption into the asari actually makes sense in a way.  

I have stated imo a similarity with Medusa - who was cursed.  Maybe they are cursed to be beautiful for eternity.  

As to why they wernt harvested....  they still serve their purpose.

If they were already a tool of the Reapers...then why bother taking down Thessia and making Banshees...its not as if other parts of the galaxy would survive a harvest to tell everyone not to trust them...

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by TurianRebel212 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:55 pm

The Leviathans are an enormous- 3 KM tall, uber sapient, hyper intelligent, super advance basically god like an immortal race of Cuttle Fish that are p!ssed about the Reapers and the "intelligence", but if they're capable of creating something like the "intellegence" and thralling the entire galaxy. I be they could control the Asari and Prothean. Easily. And I think they 'engineered' the Asari. 

But also, I think that there are not many left. I'd say maybe in the 100's. Ad so they hide and get lonely- that's why there so grumpy when people look for them. 

But then...... Comes Shepard. The most elite of elite warriors .The first human spectre. The savior of the galaxy. Hero of the Battle of Citadel. Killer of Saren Arterius. Victor over the Collectors. An "Anomaly". That must be studied. 

It makes sense. From the Cuttle Fishy point of view. 



*side note. I find the Leviathan to be Imposing, scary and a potential for even greater danger than the Reapers. But I also find them kinda sad. They're all alone on a gloomy planet under the sea. Just hiding below the ocean in their lair. They see the galaxy and the harvests but don't have any power-directly of course. To stop the Reapers. But then Shep comes along and they want to make Friends. That's why their so eager to share stuff with Shepard They want to study and use Shep, but their lonely and want a friend as well.

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by dorktainian on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:58 pm

DSharrah wrote:
dork wrote:i dont like the jump in logic that our friend turbo jerk made in that the asari have existed forever basically.  I can understand it in a way, but then again it seems strange.  Also the fact that Javik seems familiar with every race he happens to come across doesnt seem very legit.

Lets assume that The asari have been around for a very long time.  What would be the purpose of the asari in the long term scheme of things?  A single sex race who just so happen to be able to enthrall the other races into thinking they are attractive or even that they look like their own race.

Now the leap in logic here is that Leviathan is behind the asari.  Thanks TJ.  Surely if anyone is behind the asari it would be the reapers?  I suggested before that maybe they are cursed to live forever and witness the reaper cycles.  But thats where TJ's assumption into the asari actually makes sense in a way.  

I have stated imo a similarity with Medusa - who was cursed.  Maybe they are cursed to be beautiful for eternity.  

As to why they wernt harvested....  they still serve their purpose.

If they were already a tool of the Reapers...then why bother taking down Thessia and making Banshees...its not as if other parts of the galaxy would survive a harvest to tell everyone not to trust them...
i dunno. (honestly) maybe 'Embrace Eternity' actually has some meaning?

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by Raistlin Majere on Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:31 pm

DSharrah wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:From what I understand the uplifting was done mostly by leaving artifacts and other objects which might help the fledgling Asari society develop quicker. But that is just my guess.

Also just a question...why are people constantly linking the Asari and the Leviathans? Is it because of that cave painting?
Well the connection that I making is based on the idea that the Leviathans choose a dominant species to be their "avatar" just as the Reapers choose a species to become a new capital ship...My belief that the Protheans were that choice is based on the assumption that the orb on Eletania in ME 1 was Prothean tech, but that with the Leviathan DLC we clearly learn is Leviathan tech...from that point it is my speculation that the Leviathans influenced the Protheans...who just happened to influence the Asari...

As for the Protheans involvement with the Asari, Javik's banter indicates that they did extensive genetic modifying to help make the Asari biotic...that seems to be a little more involvement then just leaving an artifact...
From what I understand the Asari's proficiency with biotics come in large part from how Element Zero rich their planet is. It is mentioned that even the water supplies have traces of element zero, which would mean asari throughout their entire evolution have been exposed to element zero. Now it is possible the Protheans lazed the planet with element zero to promote this growth or discovered the potential growth and pushed it along, but nothing suggests the Asari were an apex race by any standards when the Reapers arrived.

Also linking the Leviathan orbs to the Orb on Eletania while feasible, does still seem a bit of a stretch for anything conclusive. Mostly why would a Leviathan orb contain Prothean or if anything considering the strange "bird" shown in the vision, Reaper information on a cro-magnon human hunter? The Leviathan orbs are enthrallment and communication devices, not (from what we know granted) data storage and research objects.

One also has to remember that the label "prothean" artifact is used about just about any artifact in the Mass Effect universe as most believe (before ME3) that they are the only ones who could leave behind such artifacts. Many so called "prothean" artifacts could easily be and often turn out to be Reaper artifacts and potentially now Leviathan artifacts, but just because they were labeled Prothean does not mean they ever touched Prothean hands.

But perhaps most importantly regarding any idea that the Leviathans might have had a hand in the prothean or Asari on a large scale...the Leviathan enthrallment is not subtle. I have said this before, but the people on that asteroid are clearly not normal, that much is clear the moment Shepard and crew step aboard it. They would make for very poor infiltration units because anyone who even remotely knew these people and probably even people who did not would get suspicious. Beyond that there is a severe limitation in the form of the orbs. The Leviathans have to act through them, but the orbs themselves are not exactly something a single thrall can take under the arm.

I am not saying it is not possible, but from what we have been shown of the Leviathans so far their powers and the means of exerting those powers do not lend themselves well to covert infiltration or control of high profile individuals.

Also perhaps most importantly, if the Leviathans had large hand in the development of the Protheans, why were the Protheans not warned that the Citadel was a trap. Even if the Leviathans knew the Protheans could not win, it would give the Protheans a hell of a lot better chance to fight back if they knew where the first strike would land.

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by Guest on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:09 pm

Leviathan enthrallment seemingly not being subtle, I'd agree, except remember Hadley's logs? He was already being 'attuned' to the orb BEFORE being CONTROLLED.

Which means that yes, to some degree, they can turn organics' minds more slightly toward their will, without complete possession.

Is it long term though? No, and indoctrination is more effective in itself. But I think it'd be wrong to think that Leviathans couldn't nudge a civilization towards its own ends, without revealing itself.

Personally, I think they DID do that with the Prothians, and used their own arrogance against them. Hmph, if anything, the Prothians were being set up as the ultimate 'servant' race to the Leviathans, once the Reapers were (/would be) stopped. Harbinger enslaving the Prothians into Collectors might be some giant middle finger towards the Leviathans - "Look at what you did.... tsk tsk."


EDIT: Regarding the Citadel Relay, I ..agree. I have my opinions, but it has holes like this one. Any reasoning I can make to fit my theory is that the Leviathans only NUDGE things as far as they can without revealing themselves 'from the darkness'.
As in, it really is a cosmic chess game, but the Reapers have it rigged and have the 'hax' to suddenly appear and Reap, while the Leviathans have to make whatever maneuvers they can, until that happens. Exposing the Citadel as a relay might have populations or powerful individuals panicked, instead of productive. Heck, maybe Leviathan just did what they could to accelerate Prothian evolution beyond what the Reapers might otherwise prefer, giving the Prothians more of a chance than any cycles before it, but it still wasn't enough.

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by Guest on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:26 pm

Here's a good way of putting it:

Leviathans' powers create cults, but Reapers' create religions.

If a Leviathan orb came into possession of one person (heh...), I DO think that subtle control/influence can happen on that person, and if they were influential, it would direct the course of entire civilizations.
Do I think this may have happened to the Prothians? Possibly.
Do I think this may have happened to the Asari? Possibly.
Humans? Sort of, but they seemed to be more 'observed' than directed. More chaotic evolution than directed (Asari and maybe Prothian).

...Do I think this may have happened to Shepard? Wayyyy possible. However, I consider it OPTIONAL CANON. What is that? Basically "We can agree that it happened, but only so long as you did the Firewalker DLC, or those orb sidequests, whatever." It is NOT heavily connected to the plot, and we don't NEED to know it. Because Shepard is somehow so mentally resistant, and so connected to OUR player agency, it doesn't so significantly matter whether Leviathans are guiding Shepard or not - because he's still largely under his own control, and a power IN HIMSELF.

The Reapers, on the other hand, start quickly with powerful cults (See: artifact on Palaven in comics), but quickly accelerate the growth and establish clear laws and alterations to its followers. It is 'cult', but more 'perfected'. It establishes itself more easily as a universal system, and because if its influence, people are utterly powerless to its systems of control.
The Leviathans offered their followers 'too much' agency imo, and that brought uprisings of synthetics and possible rebellions by the organics towards the Leviathans.

So what we have here, in the symbolic sense, is a cult that is plotting to take down and absorb a religion, in order to corrupt it and make it their own, new age religion. :)

Both have similar powers, but cults must work directly or else lose their influence (a common phenomenon), but religion's influence lingers and never truly goes away (also common phenomenon).

Shepard, essentially the ultimate human, offers the chance to escape this control (I don't care what your belief is, I'm only going off of possible artistic symbolism) and follow him into breaking the current cycle and maybe establishing a more positively oriented one in its place. The IRONY of it is that Shepard may have his own powers (we'll see?) and that the Cult of Shepard  could be a very 'REAL' thing. The difference is what you, as the player, DO with that power. Do you go Paragon and encourage those values? (See Aria in Omega DLC...) Or go Renegade and encourage those values instead?

Off on a tangent, but my point is that yes, the Leviathans could very well weave a web of influence without utterly possessing every little bit of a society. Control a factory owner and you control all the employees by proxy. Control a planetary leader, and you control, at least to some extent, all of its workings. The Prothian Empire may have been established the way it was, in order for Leviathan to easily instruct it to work towards certain ends, even if every single action wasn't DIRECTLY CONTROLLED (hi Harbinger).

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by DSharrah on Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:01 pm

@SwobyJ - Perfect summarization of what I was trying to say...unlike CW I do not think that the Asari are "thralls" - but merely their evolution was heavily influenced...much in the way that the relays exist to guide civilizations down a specific technological path, I think that the Leviathans "choose" a species to lead down a specific organic evolutionary path as well.

Edit: Interestingly, I think that path changes from cycle to cycle as the Leviathans search for the right "set of moves" to defeat the Reapers.

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by Rankincountry on Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:19 pm

DSharrah wrote:@SwobyJ - Perfect summarization of what I was trying to say...unlike CW I do not think that the Asari are "thralls" - but merely their evolution was heavily influenced...much in the way that the relays exist to guide civilizations down a specific technological path, I think that the Leviathans "choose" a species to lead down a specific organic evolutionary path as well.

Edit: Interestingly, I think that path changes from cycle to cycle as the Leviathans search for the right "set of moves" to defeat the Reapers.
Hmm, makes me think of one of the themes with the Daleks in the original series of Doctor Who. The Daleks fought a very long war with a synthetic race called the Movellans. Both sides had sophisticated battle computers that worked out their strategies for them, but being totally logical, the machines soon became deadlocked and incapable of outwitting each other. Eventually, the Daleks broke the deadlock by joining the mind of a child with that of the battle computer - the idea being that the child's creativity and imagination were slaved to the computer, allowing it to innovate rapidly. In the Sylvester McCoy story "Rememberance of the Daleks", such a child is shown to be able to move around independently of the computer, but completely under dalek control. The child is a creepy presence throughout the story, prior to her true nature being revealed (though she is freed when the last dalek is talked into destroying itself by the Doctor).

Funnily enough, the Daleks are a pretty good example of Synthesis - a combination of organic and machine life, that is truly neither, and with a deranged hatred of anything different to themselves, surely a much more likely outcome to the removal of diversity than ME3's sunshine and bunnies-with-green-circuitry.

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by dorktainian on Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:24 pm

dont get me started on fecking synthesis.............. feck you bioware for unleashing that bullshit on us all.

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Re: A Question About Asari

Post by Rankincountry on Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:04 pm

dork wrote:dont get me started on fecking synthesis.............. feck you bioware for unleashing that bullshit on us all.
You'll soon be at the point where no Bioware employee will dare to say "Dork" five times in front of their mirror...

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