Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

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Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by DSharrah on Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:23 pm

Ok...quick disclaimer, this just might be solid evidence against IT...but I thought that it was worthy of discussion.

We are all aware that during the decision chamber the choice mechanics show destroy in red (which usually denotes renegade) and control in blue (which usually denotes paragon).  This has been a common point of contention for IT - that the choices are apparently flopped.  But replaying through ME and the Bring Down the Sky DLC in particular led me to find some evidence to show that this may not be true.  Take a look at the videos below, especially take notice of how Shep defends each decision...


RENEGADE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvfGmhmWLQ0&feature=player_detailpage#t=462


VS.

PARAGON:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHAozfe3IOs&feature=player_detailpage#t=272

Also, I seem to now recall a discussion regarding Paragon vs Renegade - where a true paragon was described as naive (wish I had a link)...but given the above examples as they compare to the ending choices...there just might be something there.  What do you think?

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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by TurianRebel212 on Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:01 pm

Everything is flipped in the "decision chamber", the reason for this is because you are viewing everything as in a dream and looking through a mirror or reflective angel. Hence, the tree reflections. 

All of a sudden TIM is paragon and Control- the folly of Cerberus, TIM and the Prothean in their cycle. Is a viable choice because YOU are Da "Shepard" and it's a good thing. Become a reaper. 

All of a sudden synthesis- what the arca monolith did in Evolution, is the "best" choice. See, all you should have done is let Saren open the citadel in ME1. Cause his "perfect union of man and machine, and the "pinnacle of evolution", was always suppose to be the "best". It's a goon thing to be green. 

Now all of sudden, Destroying the reapers- what ALL of Shepard's Friends and allies want, is the least applicable choice. And will "kill" the geth and EDI- an emotional disconnect for this choice. An illusion. 

Also, the 1M1 all over the citadel. Another "coincidence" that things aren't "good" and this is "off". 

Wake up Shepard. 

As for the renegade and paragon crap. 

There is no good or bad choice at the end. 

There is ONLY 1 choice. 

Destroy what you know is evil. Survive. Wake up from the nightmare. Fight. 

"we FIGHT or we DIE"- Shepard ME3. 

"CONTROL is the means of survival. Control of the Reapers"- TIM ME3
 
"we EVOLVE or we DIE. That is the only way"- Kai Leng ME3


One of these characters is not like the others. 


You do not "fight" in control or synthesis- but you do DIE.

You do not SURVIVE in control you DIE

You do not EVOLVE in synthesis. YOU DIE. 

The Illusion of choice. The illusion of "paragon" or "renegade". There is only 1 choice at the end. It doesn't matter what type of "Shepard" you are. All have this in common- 

WE FIGHT OR WE DIE.

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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by DSharrah on Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:23 pm

Did you even look at the videos?

If you did you would have seen that a RENEGADE Shep was ready and willing to sacrifice others in order to destroy evil...while a PARAGON Shep was unwilling to make that same sacrifice...

Is it just me that the decision in Bring Down the Sky parallels the decision chamber, in that destroying evil even at the sacrifice of innocents is paramount vs cost of sacrificing innocents is too high?

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"Does that mean it will kill your smug ass too?"



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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:19 pm

I can see why destroy is renegade, because of the sacrifice, and control being paragon because you don't sacrifice anyone but Shepard.

However, what's strange is that TIM is being portrayed as the avatar for the blue choice. His course of action (and agreeing with it, at least in ME2), was always renegade. That guy tried to achieve control by any means necessary. Cerberus is guilty of massacre and forcing people into enslavement by implanting them with Reaper tech against their will.

What's also strange is that Anderson is being portrayed as the avatar for the red choice. We know (for example from Anderson's history with Saren) that Anderson is the opposite of ruthless. He always tried to save as many people as he could and never sacrificed carelessly. Only when "the cost of failing the mission is higher than the cost of losing those men."

While it seems consistent that controlling/rewriting/brainwashing people instead of destroying / killing them is the paragon option (rewriting the heretics was also the paragon option), it is of course extremely debatable if changing who people are is any more righteous than killing them. Many would argue against it.

What's even more interesting, is that during the entirety of Legion's loyalty mission, Shepard's paragon dialogue opposes the idea of rewriting. Then when the choice comes at the end of the mission, paragon is suddenly rewriting. My friend noticed that too, and it was only her first playthrough of ME2.

It can not be explained by 'new information', because Legion's 'revelation' of the possibility of rewriting the heretics comes right at the start of the mission.

Something to think about.

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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by DSharrah on Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:26 pm

snip... each seems to fit the choice, even if the color does not.

...snip

To the bolded, the color not fitting was meant to address the "avatars" of the choices, not necessarily the choices themselves...which again could be an entirely moot point.

In general, there is some great discussion going on...573 to 571 (rewrite vs destroy)...that was the breakdown Legion gives you if ask why you are deciding...about as close as you can get to 50/50...I can't help to wonder now if the numbers had been reversed, if I would have made a different decision?


Last edited by DSharrah on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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"Does that mean it will kill your smug ass too?"



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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:30 am

I'll never rewrite the heretics again. It's just wrong.

"Sometimes the most brutal path is the more honest one." or something along those lines.

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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by hukbum on Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:14 am

I still fail to see any paragon option (if taken literal) in the decision chamber. And I think this was intended by BW, they just didn't realize what it may cause ;)

Synthesis may look shiny but the more you think of it the more sick it gets. Same goes for control. Not that shiny but still really sick stuff when you think about what it may cause in the future.
And destroy goes along with genocide.

That's how I ended up here - the endings can't be real (or I really hope they're not meant to be taken literal), because the moral implications of each ending are just sick and evil.

So (imo) there is no paragon/renegade turnarround in the chamber because it lacks a paragon option. It's designed to force you into a rush decision without thinking about what it may cause.
That said, destroy may have a price but is does not have future consequences (again, if taken literal).

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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:46 am

@DD: I don't think the Heretic stuff is strange.
Shepard is someone who more at his core (regardless of what BSN RPers prefer :P), opposes tampering with things. He may be more and more dragged into doing so over time, but he'll keep it minimal whenever it seems to be possible.
The 'upper' conversation choices along the way are more Shepard questioning whether his more basic path is the right way for him. You'll see in the Heretic mission that Shepard is more actively trying to find out what Legion means by the consensus, rewriting, etc. He doesn't yet agree, but he'll hear out alternatives.

And that's the key word. Alternatives. Paragon, at least for Shepard, is seeking out alternatives to a situation and viewpoint and then aiming for them. It's not coming up with the alternatives on his own, but instead taking it in from others either around him, or otherwise.

It's in all the games. Shepard meets the Rachni queen. You as the player can seek out answers using whatever convo stance, but the Renegade-er paths more often shut down conversation, immediately disagree with the Queen, and get disgusted by what's happening (Queen using corpse as a puppet..).

Take the upper choices though, and Shepard isn't as disgusted, but interested. He'll (conversationally) act more willing to listen to what the Queen has to say, and nothing of the convo path is shut down. Shepard disregards the fact that rachni *just tore up the facility*, and tries to find out why that happened, and why this may be different this time.
Sometimes when Shepard does this, it works. Sometimes it doesn't. It might be Bioware's weakness that they have so many Paragon times pay off, but I'll wait til the next game to be sure about that.


Anyway, what I'm saying about the Heretic decision is that Shepard's character is always going to be one to reject new options right away. But then we players can decide whether that rejection continues, or fades away. That's fully in line with the mission with Legion. Legion tells us the option. Shepard at least isn't for it. We can then question Legion throughout the mission, gain new information to provide context. And then we can decide to stick with Shepard's more original stance, or take something else. And that something else may provide some positive results based on what we were looking for, but also complications that we pretty much signed up for by taking that action (Heretic Geth bolstering hostile hacked Geth numbers in ME3..).

Both paths have moral arguments. The *organics* on your team are clearly of the position that rewriting Geth minds is like killing them.
But its the Geth himself, on your team, that thinks otherwise. He explains how synthetics think. How they don't really think much about rewriting code, as long as its more efficient.
You can accept this or not. I didn't. I want the Geth to learn, on their own, the importance of the freedom of life, and the freedom to die. I want them to rewrite their own code, by consensus, and not at the total hacking of an organic. Because I wouldn't want it the other way as well :) (Reapers hacking organics).

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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:23 am

Synthesis may look shiny but the more you think of it the more sick it gets. Same goes for control. Not that shiny but still really sick stuff when you think about what it may cause in the future.
And destroy goes along with genocide.

Well look at this.

Krogan.
-If you let them be free of the Genophage, even if weak enough to be beat down by the galaxy, you decided that a species that nearly wiped out the rest of the known galaxy's civilizations should be allowed to continue with their old birthrate.
-If you let them be free of the Genophage AND welcome them in peace with Eve and Wrex, you decided that a species that nearly wiped out the rest of the known galaxy's civilizations shouldn't just be allowed to continue, but should be welcomed by the galaxy, just based on what we learn from a few good Krogan

Rachni.
-If you save the Rachni Queen in ME1, you did it knowing that this species also nearly wiped out the rest of the known galaxy.
-If you save the (real) Rachni Queen in ME3, you did it knowing how easily they are 'hacked' and made dangerous killing machines. Because they were. Twice. Maybe more than that.


Geth.
-If you start siding with them, up to solely picking them on Rannoch, you decided that a synthetic species that killed almost all of their creators and just let some of them survive beyond that, should be allowed to continue to grow and thrive. Even with how easily they are hacked. Even with their (or at least Legion's) deceptions
-Even if you just trusted Legion in ME2 and were positive towards him and rewrote the Heretics, you decided that hearing a synthetic species out, one that nearly eradicated an organic species, was acceptable. Tali's objections were not just flimsy - the Quarians were nearly all killed. Remember that the Reapers don't kill all organic life either..
-If you went all the way to arranging peace between the Geth and Quarians, you decided that despite all past conflicts, these two species is better off coming together for a common purpose. Despite the Quarians just seeing Geth as tools and when they couldn't, they tried to shut many of them down and even fight the other Quarians defending Geth. Despite the Geth nearly wiping out the Quarians and keeping total radio silence towards organics after occupying Rannoch. You actually think they're better off at peace with each other, with this history.


There's so many others, but that's just off the top of my head.


~~

Paragon is pretty intact imo. The difference is that the Crucible is almost every single problem we've faced in the trilogy wrapped into one package. The thing about it though, is that it could be that people just didn't see it. It's not just about synthetics and organics, it's about ALL life, that has ever existed and will exist. Even the Catalyst doesn't fully comprehend that, I think :)

Oh, and we didn't make friends with anything Reaper-ish except EDI and Geth2.0. I think that's okay. I don't think we need the story weighted towards GreenPeace (lol). And I don't think we need more BlueParagon compared to RedRenegade. Not in Shepard's Story. The funny thing is when I see Renegades complain that they had nothing for them.

Guys, the MAIN STORY is for YOU. It's a RENEGADE STORY. Go for it! Don't cry about being tempted to do otherwise (because of how good the results look for Paragon)! Stick to your GUNS. In the end, nothing goes wrong for Shepard when he does that. Right? Heh, even literally!
You fight to survive. If others were too weak to survive, that's okay. Because they're not you. This is all in the renegade script.

~~

par·a·gon  (păr′ə-gŏn′, -gən)
n.
1. A model of excellence or perfection of a kind; a peerless example: a paragon of virtue.
2.
a. An unflawed diamond weighing at least 100 carats.
b. A very large spherical pearl.
3. Printing A type size of 20 points.
tr.v. par·a·goned, par·a·gon·ing, par·a·gons
1. To compare; parallel.
2. To equal; match.

Some people actually thought nicely of Control. Why? Because they had so much faith in their Shepard, that they regarded him, specifically here with 'him' meaning his mind, as incorruptible. As NOT TIM. But something beyond anything TIM could ever be. They believed in Shepard enough that he could even Control the Reapers.






For the record, Control makes me fucking gag. I'm just good at seeing other perspectives, maybe.

Destroy - Body
Control - Mind
Synthesis - Essence

What are you more attached to? I'm more attached to Shepard's body - it being what carried him here in the first place. But I at least feel for those players who are so optimistic about Shepard that they think he could survive, in some way, anything. He survived death before by the Reapers. Why not again? Don't want to tempt fate? See it all as a manipulation that you want nothing to do with? You know what to do.  Carnifex 


So yeah, I see the Crucible as flipped in some ways, compared to ME2, I guess, but... also not really. ME2 just propped up the Paragon until.. Paragon Lost.

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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by hukbum on Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:10 pm

SwobyJ wrote:Krogan.Rachni.Geth.
Each of the choices alone are pretty dangerous, you're right there. But combined they make a quite good mix imo.

The thing is - you either commit genocide on each of them, or just let the galaxy handle the mess you left behind. The choice is up to you. Don't know about you but I've never been that much of a genocide type  tongue  Wink 

As for the Geth - I still admire them. In the ME universe they're the only race willing to learn and reflect what they did and do. Again, just my opinion, but I like the Geth and I hope I didn't wipe them out and they will return in future games. And if it wasn't for Tali, I'd always pick them over the Quarians. Because if there's a price for being highly resistant to learning the Quarians are top scorers ...

It's pretty much what I love(ed) about ME. Again and again something to think about

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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:57 pm

A thing I always thought was important to remember in regards to the Rachni and Krogan is that, yes they tried those, but they were also stopped. It required extreme actions, but they were stopped.

The Krogan know what can happen now and the Galaxy knows what they are capable of. Their strength can be regulated in the form of sanctions on how big a fleet they may have, as is already in place with many other races such as Humanity.

In a space setting, a races birth rate is meaningless in a war if they don't have the fleet to move their troops around or lay siege to a planet and as of now the Krogan do not have that.

It is no certainty, but the other choice is to exterminate them, a very extreme choice.

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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:45 pm


The thing is - you either commit genocide on each of them, or just let the galaxy handle the mess you left behind. The choice is up to you. Don't know about you but I've never been that much of a genocide type    

That's why I think (and it can't be proven unless we see it in the next game) that we're missing a lot of 'crucial context' and that the Reapers themselves are the digital preservation (yes, down to the individual) of entire species. We just don't see it, and see how it is experienced. It's only places like the Geth Consensus that may start to explain it.
*I believe a ME writer DID put it as this. That everyone is uploaded into the Reaper.

So if I'm right, yeah, we'll be at least genociding whole digital worlds of species. But wha? Does that matter? Well, do you see the Geth as deserving of being spared, despite their collective actions? ... Heck, do you even see them as people?

Shepard does put it well enough in his interactions with the Reapers though. What's left in Reapers... to the Renegade, are abominations, and they need to go. And Paragon Shepard doesn't push so hard ("let ghosts rest" or whatever), but to the Reaper Destroyer, he just let it die. It's only the last stretch of missions where we're more actively pushed (pretty flimsy on their face) reasons or at least temptations for keeping the Reapers around, by TIM, Leviathan, Sanctuary's progress, stuff like that. It's not actively promoted, but it does have that air of "You don't know everything yet. Yet."

I like to see the stories of all that went before, and go..

"Uh shit. We (the galaxy) hated the Krogan before, and then we needed them. We hated the Rachni before, and then we can use them. We were scared of the Geth before, and then can outright ally with them. We rejected anything Reaper tech, and now we have a Reaper coded entity with free reign on our ship. WTF will Bioware do NEXT?"

As for the Geth - I still admire them. In the ME universe they're the only race willing to learn and reflect what they did and do. Again, just my opinion, but I like the Geth and I hope I didn't wipe them out and they will return in future games. And if it wasn't for Tali, I'd always pick them over the Quarians. Because if there's a price for being highly resistant to learning the Quarians are top scorers ...

I sided with the Geth from the start (ME1, whenever I could in convo and in whatever slightest way), but I didn't hate the Quarians. I went for Peace. The scale of the Geth's killings did affect a whole sapient organic species, but location wise.. it was still 'just' one planet (or a few outlying ones too) in a galaxy, and I actually do believe that their isolationism was for a reason.

And that's why I say that the Reapers may be a mix of all the things. The worst parts of Geth, the worst parts of Krogan (not isolationism, but expansionism and 'fuck you' for disagreeing), the worst parts of the Council (we know better than you), the worst parts of pretty much everything we see, and few arguments of anything that would lead to them being otherwise than (imo) some dialogue hints, possible thematic representations, and that Catalyst going "Stop! It's not what you think! But I don't have time so listentomeandyouprobablyshouldn'tkillusbutyoucan."

Oh, I guess in that way, they're slightly like the Rachni. We were about the purge the Rachni Queen, and she be all "Wait! I use meat puppet to explain how it's not what you think! We were twisted!"

..And again, the Reapers take on other terrible aspects. They're not just 'twisted', but free willed as the Krogan were, and/or in a form of consensus like the Geth were.

Essentially, pick Destroy. Shepard probably is more outright indoctrinated* (though maybe you can RP otherwise?) if he chooses anything else, but I'm saying that if we get a sequel, we may just find that going Control or Synthesis MIGHT give some good story pieces (and yes, a continuation of the story in some form) for a future conflict that isn't the Reaper War.

*I still think it's possible that Shepard is undergoing indoctrination with Destroy. Difference is only that he never succumbed to it. It may still be a 'terminal illness' within him though, even with less mental ties to any specific Reaper.

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Re: Ending choice switch of paragon/renegade?

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:10 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:A thing I always thought was important to remember in regards to the Rachni and Krogan is that, yes they tried those, but they were also stopped. It required extreme actions, but they were stopped.

The Krogan know what can happen now and the Galaxy knows what they are capable of. Their strength can be regulated in the form of sanctions on how big a fleet they may have, as is already in place with many other races such as Humanity.

In a space setting, a races birth rate is meaningless in a war if they don't have the fleet to move their troops around or lay siege to a planet and as of now the Krogan do not have that.

It is no certainty, but the other choice is to exterminate them, a very extreme choice.

I think the best option when it comes to the existence of high-AI or literally Reaper Code is:

-Get them the fuck away from having their own ships, create armies of shock troops, blow planets away quickly (Krogan)
-Break them into more individual and small scale minds, even if they still network; so that they can experience the galaxy from a less superior-minded perspective (Geth, EDI)
-Find ways to buffer them against future manipulations (Rachni?)


I think that in the Mass Effect Universe, we're presented the inevitability of three things:
a)Synthetic intelligences will happen
b)People will try to create and manipulate synthetic intelligences, and those intelligences may break out of those manipulations and live on their own, in whatever way
c)People will try to incorporate more synthetics into themselves

So that means 3 main paths:
1)Kill the synthetics whenever possible. Wipe them out. Do it over and over. BE the harvester, so that they will never be. Some synthetics may join you in this, rarely, but they are still to be killed when organic life itself is at stake.
2)Control the pace of synthetic advancement, and be the one to manipulate synthetic intelligences yourself (whether you view them as sapient like organics, as tools, or as their own form of being).
3)Embrace synthetic advancement whenever it occurs, and view them as fully sapient entities of their own.


In the larger cosmic scale, Path 1 seems to be expressed in the Leviathan cycle?/rule, where IF we take them at their word, people just kept dying in continued rebellions of AI. Why? Probably because they weren't equipped to deal with them. Leviathans can't control organics beyond a reach, so people kept working on this stuff (heck, maybe in rebellion against Leviathans) and it kept backfiring. Good part is that if even the Leviathans were stopped from making the Intelligence, the Reapers would have never happened.

Path 2 seems to be expressed in the Reaper cycle. The Reapers control the advancement of all civilizations, and while seemingly respecting the Geth's differences (Sovereign doesn't hack them right away or anything), also view them as utterly inferior to themselves. They cull the galaxy ('preserving' them in Reaper form, isn't that nice of them?), in the seeming effort to keep organics from creating their own AI that may rebel and kill them all.

So yeah, I think we're headed to Path 3, in one way or another, no matter what we want. But there's the whole fight along the way. In ME3, do we choose to include the Reapers-as-they-are in it? Or do we say 'fuck you' to that and reject them?  Twisted Evil We're forced to accept working with GethVI, and we're forced to accept working with EDI to at least some degree, but we're not forced to accept them as fully sapient entities with their own wills/anything but tools.. yet.

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