Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:26 pm

@ZerebusPrime: 1.I do not think they only have 1 choice simply because of being at gunpoint, they only have 1 choice because there is a moral obligation. They are not morally allowed to kill the Geth, Murder is illegal after all, they have a moral obligation to choose peace. The fact that they have to be held at gunpoint is sad, and it just shows how sick they are if they expect to be allowed to Murder without justification.

The only "saints" are the ones who died trying to protect the Geth, anyone not taking action is to blame because they ALLOW it. Just as Americans can't complain that their government is corrupt if they don't at least TRY to do something about it.

The fact that majority LETS their leaders be so corrupt, means that the majority is to blame the most. It's not like their leaders are all powerful gods, kick them out! But nope, the citizens even let their leaders lead them into a rabid death when you don't choose peace but you side with the Geth.

2.Once again all this becomes irrelevant when you consider who is to blame. It's not Shepard's, nor the Geth's responsibility, for what the Quarians do. The Quarians are not wild animals, they choose to be bigoted so it's their fault. If a few individuals are the problem, then I see no issue with criminalizing them. It would after all be wrong for the bigots to attack the Geth, just as it'd be wrong for a racist to beat up a person of the race they hate. Assault and Murder are crimes, and for good reason :l

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:43 pm

@DD: You are stating an opinion, about something that lies within the scope of fact?

The fact is, is that Refuse clearly is not abandoning anything. From a literalist/reductionist perspective it is conventional victory. Conventional victory is not even possible to be a form of abandoning. This isn't opinion, it's fact. That is why your "opinion" is wrong, so you aren't a liar you are just wrong on a factual basis. Unless of course you are referring to abandoning the Crucible. Which in that case, the Crucible is not what we have came to do after 3 games of narrative. We came to destroy the Reapers to earn our freedom.

Discussing the reductionist "interpretations" is not off topic, because in order to even make a guess at what the non-literal interpretations are supposed to mean symbolically, you must acknowledge what they mean at face value. From a literalist perspective Refuse is simply continuing the mission WITHOUT the crucible, that's it. It isn't abandoning anything, and from a non-literal perspective Refuse is refusing to use the crucible in order to find another way.

Peace between the Quarians and the Geth is the ONLY choice that TRIES to give freedom to both races. This makes it the right choice, because not trying is worse than failure. Just as Destroy does not try, hence why it's not exactly what I would call right nor practical.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:42 pm

Look, you're not getting anywhere by accusing someone of lying, then going on to say their opinion is wrong, and being even more condescending by placing the word opinion between quotes. That's just disrespectful.

I perfectly understand the merits of interpreting the endings at face value, but it does not belong in this topic.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:49 am

Talk about disrespectful, you are the one condemning Refuse as "abandoning the mission".

It's as simple as asking, is fighting doing nothing? I could've sworn acting in opposition to the enemy was not considered abandoning anything, I could've sworn committing an act was the opposite of doing nothing. Cause you know.... by definition, it is doing something. By definition, fighting the enemy was considered the opposite of abandoning the mission to fight the enemy.

But I guess that's just my opinion, and there is a possibility that SOMEHOW even though it is a contradiction... you are right >.>

Killing the Geth, is simply not trying to save them. In fact it is much more than that, it is working against the chance of saving them. Not trying is worse than failure, and trying to prevent it is what the bad guy does. You are supposed to try to save them, that's what the good guy does. Peace is neither renegade nor paragon, it's both, because both acknowledge it as the right choice. Whether morally, or practically.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:40 am

I am not being disrespectful by simply stating my opinion that I see refuse as 'abandoning the mission'. And when I state an opinion, it should go without saying that I could be wrong about that, or anything else, for that matter.

It is just my opinion. You don't need to take offence just because I see it differently. I respect people who believe refuse is the right choice. I don't agree with it, and sure, I'll debate it, but I'm not coming down hard on them just to shove in their faces how wrong they are.

The topic of this thread is (paraphrased): Could the Quarians end up being screwed because of this thing with the Reaper code?

I have never said people should kill the Geth on their playthroughs, and that it is the only right choice. I have repeatedly said I could be wrong about all of this. I'm just trying find out if I'm on to something here, and wondering if Bioware is sneakily screwing us over.

I have said there are more than enough reasons to distrust the Geth. There are more than enough reasons for not allowing the upload. But I have never said it is justified to kill the Geth. I am saying it is morally dubious, because if they're indoctrinated/rewritten, then they're already dead, as per the game's lore.

People who have talked with me about this on voice (Davik Kang and Spotless), can confirm that I have literally said "I am not saying it is justified to kill the Geth, and that you should do that. I'm just saying, the Reaper code will come back to bite us in the ass."

But you insist on making this about me saying we should kill the Geth, but I'm not even saying that. You insist on continuously shoving the word "Murder" (with a capital M) in my face. But no, I'm being disrespectful because in my opinion refuse is abandoning the mission? Okay then.

You make reasonable arguments, but you really need to come off that high horse and look at what I'm actually saying, instead of frothing at the mouth over what I can only call a strawman.

Your opinion has been noted, killing the Geth is murder and so is choosing destroy in the ending. Okay then.

I'm much more interested in hearing reasons for why the Reaper code would not screw us over.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by southbeatz on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:44 am

I believe it doesn't matter if the Reaper code will take over the Geth again or not. If we go by the story and not take into account that we have completed the game before then the most productive and beneficial choice for Shepard is to save both the Quarian and the Geth. Neither side is worth saving imho because the Quarians were willing to blow up Shepard with the Geth Dreadnought just to score a cheap win but there's more negatives on the Quarians, no need to get into that just yet. The Geth have chosen to be taken over by the Reapers before and they had reasons but that doesn't make it right.

We cure the Genophage although we know there is a chance the Krogans will wage war after the Reapers are gone but we do it anyways. I think we have to choose to save everyone we can to stop the Reapers and deal with any and all potential consequences afterwards once the Reaper threat is over.

Will the Reaper code take over the Geth again? Well I would say right now there is no correct answer since Bioware has 3 different endings to the game with no single ending being "THE" ending. I do believe that if the Reapers are not wiped out that eventually they might be able to take over the Geth again. The Geth might use the Reaper code to advance but well I'll link a video of what Sovereign says about it, that says it pretty good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG1JGJqb184

The Reapers have guided the evolution of races throughout millions of years so it should not be too difficult for them to take over the Geth if they really wanted to again but is that reason enough to choose to kill the Geth? I think we need the Geth and simply have to hope they don't turn against us because the Geth help in many ways. The Quarians have flaws but doesn't everyone? They have a huge fleet that can greatly benefit the war effort.

I think the Reaper code in the Geth can screw us over and it could be totally fine. That really depends on the outcome of the Reaper fight with Shepard and crew. If Control is chosen then surely all the people will still know the how many millions the Reapers killed and never accept Reaper aide so that choice for that reason alone should be a bad one but everyone is entitled to choose the ending they want. Synthesis is too much like forcing changes on people that they did not willingly accept therefore that could be considered a wrong choice morally. Destroy can potentially wipe out the Reapers but also the Geth so is it worth killing all the Geth to kill the Reapers just when the Geth were learning what it's truly like to be alive?

I believe the Reaper code will bite us in the ass but I don't think it matters for any of us since I really don't believe Bioware will tough on that in the future so it's left to speculation which really has no definitive answer. Over time with or without the Reapers it would be assumed that the Geth would eventually feel superior to organics and that could lead to bad things.

I know the Refusal ending was just thrown in for the EC as a cheap shot at us, at least that's how it felt to me but it refuse still felt like what Shepard would have chosen. Shepard wouldn't have accepted what Reaper Kid offered and would have refused and looked for another way. There is the chance that IT could be revealed and change all of this though. As it currently stands I just do not believe that Commander Shepard would accept any of these 3 options, after playing ME1, ME2 and ME3 through many times over the years I just cannot believe that Shepard would ever choose any of the 3 options given so refuse would be what I believe Shepard would pick even though refuse might not even matter depending on if Bioware adds to it or not.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:59 pm

Thanks for your input, southbeatz. I think there's a good chance the next ME game will be set after the events of ME3, so I think there's a good chance we'll be confronted with the consequences of these choices.

My Shepard made peace between Quarians and Geth on all but one of my playthroughs. On my most recent playthrough I played a more ruthless Shepard, and decided to kill the Geth, just so I have a savegame for that situation, should I ever need it.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by southbeatz on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:07 pm

I usually do a similar thing and have a few different Shepards like for different endings, romances etc. One thing I have noticed though is that sometimes renegade options are just not the way to go when it has a negative impact especially on squad mates. Technically if we wanted we could have only James and Liara as squad mates period on ME3. I noticed before though that if certain people from ME2 die in the suicide mission that it can cut some content from ME3. Also there's the thing if you side with the Geth on ME3 and Tali jumps off the cliff well there goes a squad mate, same if you choose to shoot Ashley or Kaiden. That just seems counter productive to me, even as a renegade Shepard.

Generally I prefer to have everyone live that can live because it adds more content later on, even if it's just conversation. There are some renegade options hard to resist though lol like in ME2 punching the reporter and head butting her in ME3. There's really no telling what Bioware will do with the next Mass Effect game though. That depends way too much on all the uncertainty right now before the upcoming DLC since with the current endings it just leaves everything down to mostly speculation as to what even happens unless you want to believe in the silly endings we got so far.

Here's something to think about... If we choose destroy and it does kill all Geth along with the Reapers then wouldn't that almost make the Rannoch mission partially pointless if peace means nothing if we're just going to kill off the Geth anyways to kill off the Reapers?

If we choose to control the Reapers then wouldn't that also make the Rannoch mission pointless because we could then likely have a way to control the Geth thus making their quest for peace and independence pointless.

If we chose synthesis wouldn't that option yet again also make it pointless since the Geth would no longer have their true independence since they would partially merge with organics? Oh and there's the question of how would synthesis effect organics being able to effectively reproduce since the game never is clear on how the changes will be with organics and synthetics merging.

This is one of the reasons I had hoped IT could be revealed because the endings sometimes make too many past choices become totally irrelevant and then it's like why even bother?
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:06 pm

Well, about your questions: two things.

1. If you killed the Geth on Rannoch, choosing destroy is all too easy - it's just about EDI.

2. The Geth (or any synthetic for that matter) do not merge with organics in synthesis. The Ah, yes... catalyst Ah, yes... says:

"Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will have full understanding of organics."

So, organics will get a "new DNA", but the only thing that happens for synthetics is that they can now understand organics because organics have been 'perfected', not because synthetics are now becoming partly organic.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by southbeatz on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:21 pm

That could be true but aren't the Reapers partially made from a harvested Species which would mean part of a Reaper is made from organics even if a Reaper is supposed to be a synthetic so it just seemed like the Reaper Kid thing would implement something similar to the Geth which would make them partially organic but then again lol this entire decision chamber seen just doesn't fit the game and even after nearly a year I think it feels like something tossed in as a filler in the game which is wrong since it's supposed to be the ending.

I know if someone kills off the Geth then destroy is the easy option to choose but here's why I think the choices and decision chamber truly ruined the game series.

Throughout the entire series ME1, ME2 and ME3 we are looking for ways to stop the Reapers. In ME1 when talking to Saren, Shepard makes it clear that joining with the Reapers will not work and it isn't an option. Basically Shepard is directly going against Synthesis. Shepard goes on about finding a way to stop the Reapers. At the end of ME2 Shepard mentions finding a way to stop the Reapers without sacrificing the soul of the species, referring to humans. I can't remember the different moments offhand but I know there are moments where Shepard talks about finding another way.

It'd take some time lol to go through the entire series to find each moment to have it all together to look at but Shepard was always against Synthesis in ME1 and against Control in ME3 and in ME3 Shepard has the option to make peace with the Geth and the Quarians. Even if Shepard were ok with killing off the Geth, it still would be Shepard bowing down, kissing Reaper ass and accepting the choices given by some annoying Reaper Kid intelligence thing and after just being handed options Shepard can proceed to just trot along and magically have the Reapers cease to being a threat,

For my part I'm not sure if I'll accept any ending Bioware goes with at this point lol. The only way for me would be if they make the decision chamber be some form of indoctrination because that entire scene goes against the entire series I felt.

We had wars with the Rachni which the Krogan helped with then the Krogan became the enemy and then came the Genophage and then the Geth and the Geth never truly did anything wrong except wanting to survive so the logic present by the Reaper Kid in the decision chamber is just not good at all. Most conflicts in the game that are not Reaper related directly tend to be organic against organic but yet the Reaper kid went on about synthetic against organic.

I like talking about this stuff but I probably will always feel that the decision chamber is a complete joke and insult for an ending to this series.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:19 pm

The fact that it's such a departure from the lore of the games, really underlines that these are Reaper solutions, and that indoctrination is going on. The Reapers are even made to look like they're not so bad, and they only wanted the best for us.

Not to mention the fact that conflicts between synthetics and organics are all too often the result of Reaper manipulations.
But the Ah, yes... catalyst Ah, yes... claims it is inevitable, and the Reapers are only here to prevent it. Laughable.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by southbeatz on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:01 pm

I'm not sure what Bioware was thinking or maybe they weren't thinking when they thought up the decision chamber and the catalyst. Supposedly it uses the Reapers to prevent organics from being wiped out by synthetics but we both know that it's usually synthetics under reaper control that does it lol. Also there's the races like the Collectors where the Reapers modified them and cloned them so they're probably as much synthetic as organic.

The Reapers call mass murder "harvesting" lol so they can create a new Reaper, all while turning organics into a variety of things to send out to kill more organics. Maybe Bioware suddenly forgot how to write a script 3/4 into ME3 or maybe they have some big plan to reveal on the upcoming DLC.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:26 pm

I'm pretty sure they have a plan.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by HYR 2.1 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:11 pm

No.

The geth are not running quarian life like the zha'til. They can live without them just fine.

The geth's upload to quarian envirosuits is solely for medical reasons - they are simulating diseases to vaccinate the quarians. Second, it's voluntary. Not all quarians have geth uploaded to them, and I would venture to guess the # of volunteers is probably a very small one. Even if the geth do inexplicably "go bad," it's likely not going to be a large-scale problem.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:51 am

@DD: What is that saying about the people who pick that option? It says Refusers are abandoning the mission, which IS offensive because most people do not think abandoning is a good thing.

Now I've already said that I think it is entirely possible. That's why at first I was simply saying that even IF it does happen, people should still save the Geth IMHO. I don't think I directed it at you to begin with, that's what I don't understand. I've already stated I am entirely ready to accept it as inevitable even, so if all you are saying is that it could end up happening, then why did we start arguing about this?

Expanding on what HYR 2.1 said, this is what makes me a bit disappointed with what we will probably be facing in ME4. The scale of the problem is going to be small but still considered a serious problem story-wise, and so it'll likely be the EXACT event Bioware will use to introduce the Geth as irrelevant side enemies once again :/

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:16 am

@ HYR & IP:

Well, the Zha used AI to enhance their intelligence. The Quarians are using AI to enhance their immune systems.

I think the risk will depend on to which extent implants are/will be involved.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Geth suggested implants 'to speed up the process', and in their haste to be able to walk around without a suit on their homeworld again, the Quarians might just go for it.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Humakt on Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:34 am

I think the writers left some room to manouver in this for future game, just as they also did leave a note that Kai Leng might still be alive.

However, whether they will pursue this avenue is whole another matter. Reaper code makes for one hell of an upgrade though. I do not think there's much chance we see Lieutenant Bastard Kai Leng anymore, considering how liked he was.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:34 am

Javik: You know this Geth?
Shepard: Yes, it helped me fight the Collectors. It's on our side.
Javik: Unless it was reprogrammed, like the rest of the Geth.
Shepard: How do I know you're not under Reaper control?
Legion: Our architecture prevents it. We are too complex.


Legion too complex to be controlled by Reapers? Creatures that have billions of minds inside of them? SEEMS. LEGIT.

Also:

Tali: In its last message it (Legion) told me the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.
Shepard: And then nothing?
Tali: Maybe it was fighting the Reaper takeover, or maybe it didn't want to give intel to an enemy.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:41 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Javik: You know this Geth?
Shepard: Yes, it helped me fight the Collectors. It's on our side.
Javik: Unless it was reprogrammed, like the rest of the Geth.
Shepard: How do I know you're not under Reaper control?
Legion: Our architecture prevents it. We are too complex.


Legion too complex to be controlled by Reapers? Creatures that have billions of minds inside of them? SEEMS. LEGIT.

Also:

Tali: In its last message it (Legion) told me the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.
Shepard: And then nothing?
Tali: Maybe it was fighting the Reaper takeover, or maybe it didn't want to give intel to an enemy.
I highly doubt Legion would be anywhere near immune, none of the Geth can even COMPREHEND the Reapers, how is it even POSSIBLE to protect against something you can't comprehend?

Simple way of calling his bullshit: How can you be too complex, when they are vastly more complex than you? So much so that their way beyond your comprehension?

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:12 am

Just to point out the Reaper monumental processing power is worth jack shit in reprogramming Legion or any AI until they can get access to said AI' s software.

Even the Reapers need an access point to rewrite the AI. EDI is kept safe due to this fact.

Possibly any access points Legion's body might have can be shut down by Legion, possibly even completely fried as a security mechanism. It would make sense its body was designed for moving on its own so it would need additional security measures, including the ability to completely cut of any access points it might have in case of an attempt at compromising its files were made.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:12 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:Just to point out the Reaper monumental processing power is worth jack shit in reprogramming Legion or any AI until they can get access to said AI' s software.

Even the Reapers need an access point to rewrite the AI. EDI is kept safe due to this fact.

Possibly any access points Legion's body might have can be shut down by Legion, possibly even completely fried as a security mechanism. It would make sense its body was designed for moving on its own so it would need additional security measures, including the ability to completely cut of any access points it might have in case of an attempt at compromising its files were made.

... in which case, the following would be impossible:



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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:52 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:Just to point out the Reaper monumental processing power is worth jack shit in reprogramming Legion or any AI until they can get access to said AI' s software.

Even the Reapers need an access point to rewrite the AI. EDI is kept safe due to this fact.

Possibly any access points Legion's body might have can be shut down by Legion, possibly even completely fried as a security mechanism. It would make sense its body was designed for moving on its own so it would need additional security measures, including the ability to completely cut of any access points it might have in case of an attempt at compromising its files were made.

... in which case, the following would be impossible:

*snip
Exactly, besides he had to allow the Reapers through an access point in order to obtain the code. In terms of computers, downloading software that has a virus in it is a breach in security AS IS. Viruses are the Geth's form of disease, and they downloaded Reaper software so if the Reapers put some Reaper malware into it then Legion is screwed.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:11 pm

Negating what I said above... they DO INDIVIDUALIZE as proven by Legion, the ones embracing the code are individually consenting and have free will. I want to point out, the Geth are not evil and are not doing wrong even when the Reaper is around. Specifically they are still just defending themselves. Legion was almost a traitor in a sense, because he was actually helping the organics continue to oppress the Geth... except, he was seeing a chance for peace, so he was going to seize it despite how it may look to his kin.

Point is, the code was never designed to be a mind control code, that's not what it is. It's a true AI solution. In fact it can't be both, a person cannot be hacked... but a non-AI can be hacked.

Now is there ulterior motives on the Reapers behalf? Probably. But that's probably what the consensus was, a way to lure Shepard and do something to him without him knowing. In fact, if I was to suggest the purpose of the consensus was actually a way to create the ending dream indoc attempt. You know, the post Harbinger's blast/whenever the illusion begins? Essentially implanting it into Shepard's subconscious.

The crucible seems to be a trap that the Reapers are organizing throughout the whole game.

The Reapers are not trying to wipe out the Earth squad, so the idea that they are corrupting the Geth as sabotage does not make sense. Their trying to get us to use the Crucible, not trying to stop us.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:19 pm

Yeah sure, it might be a true AI solution, but if I know the Reapers, then it's a solution that will develop the AI along the paths they desire.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:22 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yeah sure, it might be a true AI solution, but if I know the Reapers, then it's a solution that will develop the AI among the paths they desire.
Actually if I know the Reapers, that's not what their doing.

What you are suggesting, would mean they have motive in the LONG term. But that cannot be possible. They don't expect to lose, so that means in the long term both the Organics and Synthetics in this cycle will not exist anymore...

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

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