Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:27 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Prettz wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote: Legion is the avatar of the Geth, so everything he says is what the Geth believe. He's not their leader, just a representative.
In ME2 yes but in 3 I'm not so sure. Legion also shows the Geth don't always agree on everything with each other. Legion gone full AI in 3 by reaper tec that Legion finds to be very beautiful and wants to spread it to all Geth.

Hear, hear.

So much for achieving their own future and rejecting the gifts of the Reapers.
It's amazing how your imminent death if you choose otherwise affects your decision-making process.

He only goes full AI after using it, when he refers to himself as "I" instead of "we". And while some Geth may have disagreed, the majority of the race did, hence Legion even considering to do it in the first place.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Master Blaster on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:31 am

Fyck synthesis, and well to be honest I thought Legion was Indoc to.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:35 am

I thought Legion was acting funny in ME3.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Master Blaster on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:36 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Prettz wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote: Legion is the avatar of the Geth, so everything he says is what the Geth believe. He's not their leader, just a representative.
In ME2 yes but in 3 I'm not so sure. Legion also shows the Geth don't always agree on everything with each other. Legion gone full AI in 3 by reaper tec that Legion finds to be very beautiful and wants to spread it to all Geth.

Hear, hear.

So much for achieving their own future and rejecting the gifts of the Reapers.
It's amazing how your imminent death if you choose otherwise affects your decision-making process.

He only goes full AI after using it, when he refers to himself as "I" instead of "we". And while some Geth may have disagreed, the majority of the race did, hence Legion even considering to do it in the first place.

To be fair Legion didn't have to upload the code.


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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:38 am

Spartacus wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Prettz wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote: Legion is the avatar of the Geth, so everything he says is what the Geth believe. He's not their leader, just a representative.
In ME2 yes but in 3 I'm not so sure. Legion also shows the Geth don't always agree on everything with each other. Legion gone full AI in 3 by reaper tec that Legion finds to be very beautiful and wants to spread it to all Geth.

Hear, hear.

So much for achieving their own future and rejecting the gifts of the Reapers.
It's amazing how your imminent death if you choose otherwise affects your decision-making process.

He only goes full AI after using it, when he refers to himself as "I" instead of "we". And while some Geth may have disagreed, the majority of the race did, hence Legion even considering to do it in the first place.

To be fair Legion didn't have to upload the code.

He was possibly past the point of no return by the time the Quarians actually agreed to stop firing, so maybe he couldn't stop it even if the Geth wanted too.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Argolas on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:41 am

There is no "don't let it upload the code but still stop the quarians" option. If Shepard hadn't successfully talked down the quarians, they would have been the ones who died. So the dialogue wheel is actually

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Master Blaster on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:43 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Prettz wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote: Legion is the avatar of the Geth, so everything he says is what the Geth believe. He's not their leader, just a representative.
In ME2 yes but in 3 I'm not so sure. Legion also shows the Geth don't always agree on everything with each other. Legion gone full AI in 3 by reaper tec that Legion finds to be very beautiful and wants to spread it to all Geth.

Hear, hear.

So much for achieving their own future and rejecting the gifts of the Reapers.
It's amazing how your imminent death if you choose otherwise affects your decision-making process.

He only goes full AI after using it, when he refers to himself as "I" instead of "we". And while some Geth may have disagreed, the majority of the race did, hence Legion even considering to do it in the first place.

To be fair Legion didn't have to upload the code.

He was possibly past the point of no return by the time the Quarians actually agreed to stop firing, so maybe he couldn't stop it even if the Geth wanted too.

No he had time.

He could have kept quiet and just let Shepard settle the problem. Not to mention Legion could have stopped at 45%. I mean if you can kill Legion before the code uploads to all Geth, then I am sure he can stop at his own free will. Plus he stops if you try to kill him.


Last edited by Spartacus on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Argolas on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:44 am

Spartacus wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Prettz wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote: Legion is the avatar of the Geth, so everything he says is what the Geth believe. He's not their leader, just a representative.
In ME2 yes but in 3 I'm not so sure. Legion also shows the Geth don't always agree on everything with each other. Legion gone full AI in 3 by reaper tec that Legion finds to be very beautiful and wants to spread it to all Geth.

Hear, hear.

So much for achieving their own future and rejecting the gifts of the Reapers.
It's amazing how your imminent death if you choose otherwise affects your decision-making process.

He only goes full AI after using it, when he refers to himself as "I" instead of "we". And while some Geth may have disagreed, the majority of the race did, hence Legion even considering to do it in the first place.

To be fair Legion didn't have to upload the code.

He was possibly past the point of no return by the time the Quarians actually agreed to stop firing, so maybe he couldn't stop it even if the Geth wanted too.

No he had time.

He could have kept quiet and just let Shepard settle the problem. Not to mention Legion could have stopped at 45%. I mean if you can kill Legion before the code uploads to all Geth, then I am sure he can stop at his own free will.

He could even have stopped after the upload is complete. He just needed to not commit suicide.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:48 am

Spartacus wrote:
No he had time.

He could have kept quiet and just let Shepard settle the problem. Not to mention Legion could have stopped at 45%. I mean if you can kill Legion before the code uploads to all Geth, then I am sure he can stop at his own free will.
No, he didn't. The Quarians were literally slaughtering his people during that whole conversation time. To put yourself in Legion's shoes: You don't care how much you trust someone, if you have a chance to save your people myself, you'll take it.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Master Blaster on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:52 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
No he had time.

He could have kept quiet and just let Shepard settle the problem. Not to mention Legion could have stopped at 45%. I mean if you can kill Legion before the code uploads to all Geth, then I am sure he can stop at his own free will.
No, he didn't. The Quarians were literally slaughtering his people during that whole conversation time. To put yourself in Legion's shoes: You don't care how much you trust someone, if you have a chance to save your people myself, you'll take it.

As were the Geth slaughtering Tali's people. Your point. If legion just never brought up the whole code thing, then yes Legion would still be alive, but no Legion used the Reaper code. Yes it maybe be of his creation, but the primary code is in fact Reaper code.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:55 am

Spartacus wrote:
Selim Bradley wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
No he had time.

He could have kept quiet and just let Shepard settle the problem. Not to mention Legion could have stopped at 45%. I mean if you can kill Legion before the code uploads to all Geth, then I am sure he can stop at his own free will.
No, he didn't. The Quarians were literally slaughtering his people during that whole conversation time. To put yourself in Legion's shoes: You don't care how much you trust someone, if you have a chance to save your people myself, you'll take it.

As were the Geth slaughtering Tali's people. Your point. If legion just never brought up the whole code thing, then yes Legion would still be alive, but no Legion used the Reaper code. Yes it maybe be of his creation, but the primary code is in fact Reaper code.
No, the Geth weren't shooting until either after updated or when that option's taken away by Legion's death by Shepard. And so what if it's based off Reaper tech? So are our engines and weapons, yet we still use them.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:57 am

Spartacus wrote:Ya I watched another video, and it's a glitch. However Legion never created a new code. Tali tells Legion..." You want to upload the Reaper code?"

Legion says " Yes."
I just remembered we have a whole thread for this. Let's take this there.

http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t51-could-the-quarians-end-up-like-the-zha-til-if-we-make-peace-between-quarians-and-geth


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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Master Blaster on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:57 am

Spartacus wrote:Ya I watched another video, and it's a glitch. However Legion never created a new code. Tali tells Legion..." You want to upload the Reaper code?"

Legion says " Yes."

SO in truth that means the Geth have free will, but there is no mention of the Reapers regaining control of the geth.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:59 am

Spartacus wrote:
Spartacus wrote:Ya I watched another video, and it's a glitch. However Legion never created a new code. Tali tells Legion..." You want to upload the Reaper code?"

Legion says " Yes."

SO in truth that means the Geth have free will, but there is no mention of the Reapers regaining control of the geth.
Probably because there's not enough left of it to do so. Legion says he still has "fragments" of the Reaper code, not the entire thing.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Master Blaster on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:03 am

You know I notice something if the Geth truly were waiting for their creators to return to their home world, then why didn't they just leave? I mean come on I know it's their home to, but really "okay since my creators just want their home world back, and we don't want to fight them, then let's just leave. IF we stay, we have to fight them, and join the Reapers.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:05 am

Spartacus wrote:You know I notice something if the Geth truly were waiting for their creators to return to their home world, then why didn't they just leave? I mean come on I know it's their home to, but really "okay since my creators just want their home world back, and we don't want to fight them, then let's just leave. IF we stay, we have to fight them, and join the Reapers.
They never had an opportunity. The Quarians launched a suprise attack on all Geth-controlled systems, remember?
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by BansheeOwnage on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:22 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
Spartacus wrote:You know I notice something if the Geth truly were waiting for their creators to return to their home world, then why didn't they just leave? I mean come on I know it's their home to, but really "okay since my creators just want their home world back, and we don't want to fight them, then let's just leave. IF we stay, we have to fight them, and join the Reapers.
They never had an opportunity. The Quarians launched a suprise attack on all Geth-controlled systems, remember?
I think he meant the the previous 290 years. But I think the reason was because they were trying to safeguard Rannoch, and make it more habitable, as I'm sure it was utterly devastated during the Morning War.

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Legion rewritten?

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:01 am

I posted in the thread :)

"No. The destinction between geth and heretic was retconned."

This is the only one that came close to my actual answer.

Yes, he's technically a heretic.

However, he's also not.

Basically, he's an evolution of the 'heretic' form.

He accepted some Reaper tech, instead of pushing forward with the Dyson Sphere plan.

But he also continuously seems to exist not just to safeguard the geth (which of course takes priority), but ALSO to do what he can to forge peace with the quarians and the galaxy at large.
(This is significantly due to Shepard's influence)

So this means two things:
1)The surviving Geth ARE on your side, and do NOT side with the Reapers
2)They also contain a curse in them, symbolically speaking. If they're in a future-based Mass Effect game, we may find them having to face this curse and inner corruption. How they seem to fall to temptation and deception even quicker than organics may. Legion himself seems to foreshadow this with his "No, we are not" ('better than this') in the Geth Consensus mission.

Both races are actually cosmically cursed btw. The geth carry the legacy of synthetics rebelling against organics, and quarians carry the legacy of organic seeking domination over other organics, and their synthetic 'tools' (specifically the latter, in the quarians' case).

You can try to seek a better way, but this is an ongoing process that goes beyond Shepard's lifespan (no matter one's views on the ending and Shepard's fate).

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:30 pm

Argolas wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:To be honest, I think it's very likely that Legion is indoctrinated/rewritten in ME3.

Yes, it's not only the whole "not accepting reaper tech" business, it's also a 180 in objective. That server the Geth wanted, that is the exact opposite of individuality. Yet now, Legion suddenly wants to make the Geth individuals- and it wants that so bad that the only way of stopping it is killing Legion. Also remember what Legion said when it looked at the reaper upgrades- it found them "beautiful". Hello superstitious awe...

Couldn't agree more.

Hey, we have a separate thread for this, by the way, because this recurring topic seems to annoy a lot of people.

http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t51-could-the-quarians-end-up-like-the-zha-til-if-we-make-peace-between-quarians-and-geth

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Legion rewritten?

Post by Dwailing on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:33 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Argolas wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:To be honest, I think it's very likely that Legion is indoctrinated/rewritten in ME3.

Yes, it's not only the whole "not accepting reaper tech" business, it's also a 180 in objective. That server the Geth wanted, that is the exact opposite of individuality. Yet now, Legion suddenly wants to make the Geth individuals- and it wants that so bad that the only way of stopping it is killing Legion. Also remember what Legion said when it looked at the reaper upgrades- it found them "beautiful". Hello superstitious awe...

Couldn't agree more.

Hey, we have a separate thread for this, by the way, because this recurring topic seems to annoy a lot of people.

http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t51-could-the-quarians-end-up-like-the-zha-til-if-we-make-peace-between-quarians-and-geth

I'll just say this. I wouldn't surprise me if Legion turned out to be indoctrinated. It would make me sad, but it wouldn't surprise me. HOWEVER, that's not going to stop me from making peace between the quarians and the geth. I'll handle whatever consequences there are when I get there, and for now I want to give them the benefit of a doubt.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:17 am

Dwaling wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Argolas wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:To be honest, I think it's very likely that Legion is indoctrinated/rewritten in ME3.

Yes, it's not only the whole "not accepting reaper tech" business, it's also a 180 in objective. That server the Geth wanted, that is the exact opposite of individuality. Yet now, Legion suddenly wants to make the Geth individuals- and it wants that so bad that the only way of stopping it is killing Legion. Also remember what Legion said when it looked at the reaper upgrades- it found them "beautiful". Hello superstitious awe...

Couldn't agree more.

Hey, we have a separate thread for this, by the way, because this recurring topic seems to annoy a lot of people.

http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t51-could-the-quarians-end-up-like-the-zha-til-if-we-make-peace-between-quarians-and-geth

I'll just say this. I wouldn't surprise me if Legion turned out to be indoctrinated. It would make me sad, but it wouldn't surprise me. HOWEVER, that's not going to stop me from making peace between the quarians and the geth. I'll handle whatever consequences there are when I get there, and for now I want to give them the benefit of a doubt.

I wouldn't be surprised either. There's two details that make ME hopeful though:

1)Legion seemed to die with hope for a better future NOT under the Reapers (in fact, he seems to support their destruction and ending of enslavement of the galaxy). He's still more alike to Shepard, than Saren or TIM or Kenson or or or or. You get the picture.

2)There seems to be a theme of the Reapers laying the seeds for our destruction, BUT this cycle is 'different' (due to several factors). We seem to be the cycle that can upend the Reapers' plans, and in fact learn from the cycles enough that we can turn it entirely against the Reapers. I think the Geth is part of that, as we just might see in future content.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:13 am

SwobyJ wrote:I posted in the thread :)

"No. The destinction between geth and heretic was retconned."

This is the only one that came close to my actual answer.

Yes, he's technically a heretic.

However, he's also not.

Basically, he's an evolution of the 'heretic' form.

He accepted some Reaper tech, instead of pushing forward with the Dyson Sphere plan.

But he also continuously seems to exist not just to safeguard the geth (which of course takes priority), but ALSO to do what he can to forge peace with the quarians and the galaxy at large.
(This is significantly due to Shepard's influence)

So this means two things:
1)The surviving Geth ARE on your side, and do NOT side with the Reapers
2)They also contain a curse in them, symbolically speaking. If they're in a future-based Mass Effect game, we may find them having to face this curse and inner corruption. How they seem to fall to temptation and deception even quicker than organics may. Legion himself seems to foreshadow this with his "No, we are not" ('better than this') in the Geth Consensus mission.

Both races are actually cosmically cursed btw. The geth carry the legacy of synthetics rebelling against organics, and quarians carry the legacy of organic seeking domination over other organics, and their synthetic 'tools' (specifically the latter, in the quarians' case).

You can try to seek a better way, but this is an ongoing process that goes beyond Shepard's lifespan (no matter one's views on the ending and Shepard's fate).
You know I just want to point out that the heretics were not just evil fuckheads, they were just brainwashed. Again it was specifically explained that the Reapers had showed them different logic, this resulted in the Heretic Geth coming to a different conclusion.

The logic itself is probably not wrong. That's the thing, Reapers are these vastly intelligent beings... so their logic is probably correct. It's just the conclusions that are questionable. And the Reapers take advantage of the fact that the Heretics cannot debate the Reapers, kinda like religions prey on the weak minded and try to trick them with fallacies and scapegoats, etc, because they know the people are not prepared to handle what is thrown at them.

Not that the logic the Reapers supply is wrong or a fallacy, just they they may be coming to a flawed conclusion and they abuse the fact that no Synthetic nor Organic can show it to be flawed in order to indoctrinate them. Commander Shepard seems to be the only one who is on their level, the only one who can show their conclusion to be flawed. Hence the whole "You have hope, more than you know. You the first organic to be here proves it". or "What are you doing here?", etc, etc.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:10 am

Um yes, I know. I'm talking in symbolism, not literal 'curses', of course.

Just as 'heretics' is symbolic in itself - because no one is actually saying that a change of code actually means that a geth becomes a literal heretic.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:57 pm

SwobyJ wrote:Um yes, I know. I'm talking in symbolism, not literal 'curses', of course.

Just as 'heretics' is symbolic in itself - because no one is actually saying that a change of code actually means that a geth becomes a literal heretic.
I know, I just feel the need to clarify because sometimes it feels like people are saying that the Reapers are just 100% wrong. It's obvious that they hit a singularity, several probably, and so they realized something and came to a conclusion that lead to the harvest. Of course this sounds like the Synthetic paradigm... but I highly doubt it because they don't actually act like they are doing what they claim to. They themselves disprove their assertions multiple ways... First they aren't trying to solve the paradigm proven by the pointless extinction and conflict they invoke. Second, they are technically Synthetic even if "hybrids"... yet they do not rebel. Their masters clearly did not exclude themselves in the orders given to the intelligence, so it was fair game. Ever heard of the 3 laws? Seen the movie iRobot?

Besides why would the Reapers genuinely think we can't comprehend their motives, and then at the last moment they go full out and explain something we can EASILY comprehend? So while I believe they have a motive they think is a legit one, I don't think it is the Synthetic paradigm.

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Terramine
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:35 pm

I just thought of something. A way for the Geth to fight against indoctrination even after the upgrades. Use their consensus. Both over examples in the trilogy who operate on similar principles, the Rachni and Feros colonists, show that this is effective, so why not for the Geth?
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Hanako Ikezawa
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

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