Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:06 am

Selim Bradley wrote:I just thought of something. A way for the Geth to fight against indoctrination even after the upgrades. Use their consensus. Both over examples in the trilogy who operate on similar principles, the Rachni and Feros colonists, show that this is effective, so why not for the Geth?
Especially since: Geth + upgrades + Consensus = Supercharged Consensus. They'd probably be too complex enough THEN. I don't believe legion on his own could be too complex, but a bunch of true AIs in the consensus are more believable.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Argolas on Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:09 pm

Here's some interesting dialogue that I just got. I blindly picked the persuasion option before and now I am replaying ME3 again after quite a while. I just got to the Rannoch section. I support the effort for peace but show no understanding at all when it comes to toying with Reaper tech (as I should have from the beginning). I intend to kill off the Geth in the end because that is the only way to stop the Reaper code.



Legion: This unit still carries remnants of the Old Machine upgrade code. we can break any Geth security. You are concerned.

Shepard: Hell yes I'm concerned! You are still hooked up to the Reapers?

Legion: No. We only carry code upgrades that make us more effective -- more intelligent.

Shepard: But you lied! I understood when you sprang those Geth Primes on me, but you just keep lying. What do I have to do to gain your trust?

Legion: We did not intend to cause offense.

Shepard: Damn it Legion, how did we get here? The Geth are better than this.

Legion: No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not.



You don't get this by being blindly Paragon or renegade...
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:14 pm

Argolas wrote:Here's some interesting dialogue that I just got. I blindly picked the persuasion option before and now I am replaying ME3 again after quite a while. I just got to the Rannoch section. I support the effort for peace but show no understanding at all when it comes to toying with Reaper tech (as I should have from the beginning). I intend to kill off the Geth in the end because that is the only way to stop the Reaper code.



Legion: This unit still carries remnants of the Old Machine upgrade code. we can break any Geth security. You are concerned.

Shepard: Hell yes I'm concerned! You are still hooked up to the Reapers?

Legion: No. We only carry code upgrades that make us more effective -- more intelligent.

Shepard: But you lied! I understood when you sprang those Geth Primes on me, but you just keep lying. What do I have to do to gain your trust?

Legion: We did not intend to cause offense.

Shepard: Damn it Legion, how did we get here? The Geth are better than this.

Legion: No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not.



You don't get this by being blindly Paragon or renegade...
Again, killing them because of the code is wrong. It's the same situation with the Krogan, might as well kill them off too.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Argolas on Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:51 pm

If there was a "stop the code and save the geth" option I'd take it. There isn't.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:00 pm

The Krogan situation is not the same because, for the gazillionth time: there is no Reaper tech involved.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:07 pm

Argolas wrote:If there was a "stop the code and save the geth" option I'd take it. There isn't.

For obvious reasons if you ask me. Removing the code is the same as handing a loaded gun pointed at the Geth as a whole to the Quarians. Without those upgrades the Geth are defenseless against the cyber weapon the Quarians have created and any conflict which might arise between Geth and Quarians in the future would be automatically won by the Quarians as a result. They could force the Geth to accept anything, because they could wipe the Geth out with ease should the Geth disagree. In a worst case scenario taking away those upgrades would be handing the Geth back into slavery.

And considering how the entire Geth / Quarian conflict came to be, I would not do that even if the option was there.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Argolas on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:50 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
Argolas wrote:If there was a "stop the code and save the geth" option I'd take it. There isn't.

For obvious reasons if you ask me. Removing the code is the same as handing a loaded gun pointed at the Geth as a whole to the Quarians.

And uploading the code is the same the other way around. If the Geth ever decided to turn on the Quarians, they could have taken over Rannoch in no time. Remember that while the Quarians are mostly civilians, all Geth platforms are heavily armed killer machines. Not to mention nasty tricks like hacking Quarian enviro-suits...

And as DoomsdayDevice said: Its frickin REAPER TECH. Many have claimed they had it under control. It always ends up badly.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:55 pm

Argolas wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
Argolas wrote:If there was a "stop the code and save the geth" option I'd take it. There isn't.

For obvious reasons if you ask me. Removing the code is the same as handing a loaded gun pointed at the Geth as a whole to the Quarians.

And uploading the code is the same the other way around. If the Geth ever decided to turn on the Quarians, they could have taken over Rannoch in no time. Remember that while the Quarians are mostly civilians, all Geth platforms are heavily armed killer machines. Not to mention nasty tricks like hacking Quarian enviro-suits...

And as DoomsdayDevice said: Its frickin REAPER TECH. Many have claimed they had it under control. It always ends up badly.
So as long as the Quarians don't attack the Geth again, there is no problem since the Geth have only ever fought them in self-defence and in fact want peace. And Reaper tech doesn't always end badly. Everything in the MEU is based off Reaper tech.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:34 am

Argolas wrote:If there was a "stop the code and save the geth" option I'd take it. There isn't.
Maybe there will be in the future, did you ever think about that? First off there is no threat with Commander Shepard around because he/she will just set it straight if things get out of line. Second it IS like the Krogan because it's a gamble, you cannot punish them for what they MIGHT do. And what I mean is in context to the first thing, even if Reaper Tech will TRY to end badly... Commander Shepard could possibly stop it. Or someone else might.

If we get another Heretic type choice, saving them will make more sense this time around.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Argolas on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:22 am

There is a difference between reaper-based technology and actual plain reaper tech that was shortly used to control the Geth. Every plain reaper technology we ever heard of was a trap.

I don't want to punish the Geth. I just want to stop the reaper code.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:30 am

Selim Bradley wrote:
Argolas wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
Argolas wrote:If there was a "stop the code and save the geth" option I'd take it. There isn't.

For obvious reasons if you ask me. Removing the code is the same as handing a loaded gun pointed at the Geth as a whole to the Quarians.

And uploading the code is the same the other way around. If the Geth ever decided to turn on the Quarians, they could have taken over Rannoch in no time. Remember that while the Quarians are mostly civilians, all Geth platforms are heavily armed killer machines. Not to mention nasty tricks like hacking Quarian enviro-suits...

And as DoomsdayDevice said: Its frickin REAPER TECH. Many have claimed they had it under control. It always ends up badly.
So as long as the Quarians don't attack the Geth again, there is no problem since the Geth have only ever fought them in self-defence and in fact want peace. And Reaper tech doesn't always end badly. Everything in the MEU is based off Reaper tech.

Exactly and unlike the Geth, the Quarians are not completely defenseless even if the code is uploaded. The code does not stop the Quarian ships and people from fighting back, the cyber weapon however does exactly that to the Geth.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:20 am

Argolas wrote:There is a difference between reaper-based technology and actual plain reaper tech that was shortly used to control the Geth. Every plain reaper technology we ever heard of was a trap.

I don't want to punish the Geth. I just want to stop the reaper code.
Again, even if it goes badly do you think Bioware will not use that in the future as another plot choice? Because they easily could. Either there will be a brand new solution or we will get a heretic type choice.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Argolas on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:14 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
Argolas wrote:There is a difference between reaper-based technology and actual plain reaper tech that was shortly used to control the Geth. Every plain reaper technology we ever heard of was a trap.

I don't want to punish the Geth. I just want to stop the reaper code.
Again, even if it goes badly do you think Bioware will not use that in the future as another plot choice? Because they easily could. Either there will be a brand new solution or we will get a heretic type choice.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu May 16, 2013 7:34 pm

Stumbled upon this old thread:

Is Javik right?

Seems like we're not the first ones to notice this!

Effigial wrote...

"There is room for only one order of consciousness in the galaxy, the perfection of the machines, or the chaos of the organics."

For most the game after waking Javik I figured he was just full of hateful crap. But after his conversation with Tali, you can ask him about AI problems he had in his cycle. He talks about a race that that lived on a dying world, beyond their ability to save it. So they gave themselves implants to enhance their intelligence, soon after the AI seized the physical body. Offspring were turn into a slave race, and a few organic traces were left. (Figured this is where the reapers got the idea for the collectors.)

Paragon Shepard then says: “I can’t believe there isn’t some way for us to co-exist. We made them.” Javik comes back with “Then gave them the power to surpass you. There is room for only one order of consciousness in the galaxy, the perfection of the machines, or the chaos of the organics."

I decide not to take his warning about tossing Legion out of the air lock, few missions later I save the Geth and the Quarians. I go downstairs to talk to Tali and she says something that scares the hell out of me. Tali: “Geth are even uploading into the suits of Quarian volunteers, they're rewriting environmental functions, jump-starting our immune systems.

Yeah, that Tali quote definitely scares the hell out of me as well.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Thu May 16, 2013 9:16 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Stumbled upon this old thread:

Is Javik right?

Seems like we're not the first ones to notice this!

Effigial wrote...

"There is room for only one order of consciousness in the galaxy, the perfection of the machines, or the chaos of the organics."

For most the game after waking Javik I figured he was just full of hateful crap. But after his conversation with Tali, you can ask him about AI problems he had in his cycle. He talks about a race that that lived on a dying world, beyond their ability to save it. So they gave themselves implants to enhance their intelligence, soon after the AI seized the physical body. Offspring were turn into a slave race, and a few organic traces were left. (Figured this is where the reapers got the idea for the collectors.)

Paragon Shepard then says: “I can’t believe there isn’t some way for us to co-exist. We made them.” Javik comes back with “Then gave them the power to surpass you. There is room for only one order of consciousness in the galaxy, the perfection of the machines, or the chaos of the organics."

I decide not to take his warning about tossing Legion out of the air lock, few missions later I save the Geth and the Quarians. I go downstairs to talk to Tali and she says something that scares the hell out of me. Tali: “Geth are even uploading into the suits of Quarian volunteers, they're rewriting environmental functions, jump-starting our immune systems.

Yeah, that Tali quote definitely scares the hell out of me as well.

Unless the suits suddenly become powered armor the Geth can never gain direct control of the Quarians through the suits. Even if it has different mechanical functions it is still the Quarians moving around beneath that suit.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Rifneno on Fri May 17, 2013 12:58 am

I can't believe this dumbass topic is still going.

There is no option to NOT murder the geth without letting Legion upload the code. Therefor, uploading the code is at worst a neutral decision.

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE IT SO THAT PURPOSEFULLY WIPING OUT A RACE THAT WANTS TO BE FRIENDS IS THE RIGHT DECISION.

End of story. Period. /Thread. This is as bad as demersel's time traveling derelict man who's secretly a dinosaur Nixon from an alternate dimension where the Reapers are just practical jokers and all asari are men theory.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri May 17, 2013 6:47 am

Well sure, maybe you're right.

But why do the Geth betray every principle they ever had?

You know, about achieving their own future, rejecting the gifts of the Reapers? Since when did they aspire individuality? I thought what they aspired was true unity?

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Fri May 17, 2013 7:21 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Well sure, maybe you're right.

But why do the Geth betray every principle they ever had?

You know, about achieving their own future, rejecting the gifts of the Reapers? Since when did they aspire individuality? I thought what they aspired was true unity?

Achieving individuality has compromised none of their principles. They are still connected to the network, they can still become a true unity. They can still achieve their own future, but at the moment where it was all happening they were also vulnerable.

I think what Legion realized is that the Geth needed the upgrades, not just to resist the Quarians advances, but also to understand the threat the Reapers caused as despite Legion having told the Geth about the Reapers, despite the Heretics, they still sided with them in the end due to the Quarians attack. I think Legion realized they were simply to vulnerable in the form they had.

And in the end it is Legion who chooses to upload the code, not the Reapers, making it no more a Reaper gift than the Thanix Cannon was. Also he may not have achieved consensus with the rest of the Geth on the matter (or he actually may considering how fast the Geth can communicate) but it does not matter as the Quarians were still about to blow them out of the sky. It was upload or be wiped out in the situation presented to Legion.

I have said it before, but I am almost 100% that what Legion uploaded was not the full code like what the Reaper originally put into the Geth. After all if it was the full unaltered code the Geth would immediately fall back under Reaper control, yet that does not happen.

And if it has been altered, changed, then it only draws more parallels to the Thanix Cannon work or EDI than any kind of gift from the Reapers.



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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Rifneno on Fri May 17, 2013 12:33 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Well sure, maybe you're right.

But why do the Geth betray every principle they ever had?

You know, about achieving their own future, rejecting the gifts of the Reapers? Since when did they aspire individuality? I thought what they aspired was true unity?

Not maybe I'm right. I'm right. I'm saying something so patently obvious that it's absurd I even need to say it. The only reason you think it has even the slightest shred of merit is because you came up with it and you don't want to admit it's garbage. You really should. We've all had garbage ideas. Most of us don't cling to them like this. The guys who insist it be ambiguous whether you do things like let the Destiny Ascension be destroyed or let space nazis have a Reaper base are not going to make wanton genocide the right decision. Accept it.

P.S. The writer who did Legion (and thus most of the geth lore) in ME2 didn't have any part in ME3. This is the reason for the inconsistencies in his character. Probably also why he was relegated to such a non-role that he's the only squad member in the trilogy who didn't get any content in Citadel.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri May 17, 2013 1:47 pm

Rifneno wrote:Not maybe I'm right. I'm right. I'm saying something so patently obvious that it's absurd I even need to say it. The only reason you think it has even the slightest shred of merit is because you came up with it and you don't want to admit it's garbage. You really should. We've all had garbage ideas. Most of us don't cling to them like this. The guys who insist it be ambiguous whether you do things like let the Destiny Ascension be destroyed or let space nazis have a Reaper base are not going to make wanton genocide the right decision. Accept it.

You misunderstand. First of all, I'm not saying people should kill the Geth. They haven't done anything wrong yet. Even though there's all kinds of clues that the Geth have probably been rewritten, the 'right' choice is probably to make peace and deal with the consequences later.

What I'm actually saying is not that killing the Geth will be the right choice, it's far more likely that no matter what you do, the Quarians and the Geth are screwed.

If you kill the Quarians and side with the Geth, the Geth will turn on you because they've been rewritten.
If you make peace, the Geth will take over the Quarians and turn them into Reaper monstrosities.
If you kill the Geth and side with the Quarians, the Quarians will not be able to adapt to their home planet without the Geth and go extinct. (This is not much of a stretch, in fact there's a (low EMS?) destroy ending slide in which (if you killed the Geth) you see a Rannoch wasteland with dead Quarians)

This way none of the choices will be 'right', they'll just have different consequences.

I'm not saying this is definitely what will happen, I'm just looking at what is possible from a story perspective, and I think it's possible.

IMHO you're limiting yourself by thinking totally meta; Bioware will not do this, etc.

Rifneno wrote:P.S. The writer who did Legion (and thus most of the geth lore) in ME2 didn't have any part in ME3. This is the reason for the inconsistencies in his character. Probably also why he was relegated to such a non-role that he's the only squad member in the trilogy who didn't get any content in Citadel.

Ah, so it's bad riting lulz! Tongue

'Inconsistencies' is putting it mildly. They're doing the opposite of what they stood for. I think it's on purpose.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Gummy on Fri May 17, 2013 2:03 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:If you kill the Geth and side with the Quarians, the Quarians will not be able to adapt to their home planet without the Geth and go extinct. (This is not much of a stretch, in fact there's a (low EMS?) destroy ending slide in which (if you killed the Geth) you see a Rannoch wasteland with dead Quarians)
Iirc the slide you are speaking of happens if you first kill the Quarians and then choose destroy.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Fri May 17, 2013 3:21 pm

Gummy wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:If you kill the Geth and side with the Quarians, the Quarians will not be able to adapt to their home planet without the Geth and go extinct. (This is not much of a stretch, in fact there's a (low EMS?) destroy ending slide in which (if you killed the Geth) you see a Rannoch wasteland with dead Quarians)
Iirc the slide you are speaking of happens if you first kill the Quarians and then choose destroy.
That is correct Gummy. The Rannoch wasteland slide occurs only when you side with the Geth over the Quarians and then choose the Destroy ending. If you side with the Quarians over the Geth, it shows the Quarians in their suits living in a metropolis slide on Rannoch that occurs if you chose Quarians over Geth. And finally if you choose Synthesis with peace between theGeth and Quarians acheived, it shows maskless Quarians and Geth living in a metropolis on Rannoch.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by HYR 2.1 on Fri May 17, 2013 6:02 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:@ HYR & IP:

Well, the Zha used AI to enhance their intelligence. The Quarians are using AI to enhance their immune systems.

I think the risk will depend on to which extent implants are/will be involved.


Late as hell to respond, but so long as this thread is still on page-1...

Quarians do not need implants, that's what the envirosuits basically are.

That's why Tali doesn't appear green (at all) after choosing Sync.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Rifneno on Fri May 17, 2013 6:11 pm


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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Humakt on Sat May 18, 2013 11:55 pm

Rifneno wrote:I can't believe this dumbass topic is still going.

There is no option to NOT murder the geth without letting Legion upload the code. Therefor, uploading the code is at worst a neutral decision.

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE IT SO THAT PURPOSEFULLY WIPING OUT A RACE THAT WANTS TO BE FRIENDS IS THE RIGHT DECISION.

End of story. Period. /Thread. This is as bad as demersel's time traveling derelict man who's secretly a dinosaur Nixon from an alternate dimension where the Reapers are just practical jokers and all asari are men theory.

The galaxy never rewards naive. You just got swayed by Legion's efficient puppy eye.

The whole thing smells fishy as hell, but guess honey badgers don't have good sense of smell.

This thing has merit whether you like it or not.

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Humakt
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Posts : 308
Join date : 2013-01-07
Age : 34

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

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