Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

by Raistlin Majere Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:21 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Rifneno wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:The thing is that the Reaper code seems to have a life of its own. It regrows, moves, breathes, makes Reaper growls (in the consensus). Sure, you could say this is only because there is a live Reaper attached to the consensus, but we do not know.

It could very well be possible that it regrows after a certain amount of time.

When you have the discussion about the Reaper upgrades onboard the Normandy, Legion says he finds this "growth beautiful, indicative of life".

"Growth".

It's still using a Reaper solution to create peace. It smells of synthesis on all sides. I still can't trust it.

And I'd agree if there was a way to have the geth survive but stay as they are. Given that the choice is either murdering an entire race, or letting them use the code that Legion assures us is safe, I'd literally bet everything I own that the code is safe.

I totally see where you're coming from. But the thing is... all of ME3 is like that. We don't get to 'opt out' any more. The entire game forces you to choose between two choices or dialogue options.

Disallowing the upload and still achieving peace would be a no-risk win. Here, they force you to choose between allowing the upload or letting the Geth die.

In an ideal situation, Shepard would tell the Quarians to stand down and disallow Legion to use the upload. Shepard would remind Legion of his own words at the end of ME2, and Legion would see reason, or realize he's been rewritten.

The only way to realize peace is to allow the upload. If Bioware is really devious (and I'm sure they are), they'll still manage to fool people into a disastrous situation even though they went straight for destroy in the ending.

It's the same kind of sadistic humour as talking Shepards into giving up and committing suicide, using the image of a boy that gives Jar Jar Binks a run for his money, in terms of popularity with the fanbase.

I get where you are coming from, but I dont think it is the outcome which will happen. One part is I trust Legion, but also because you have to remember how hard the peace is to attain. You essentially need 5 points accumulated through various events with 7 possible throughout the series. Considering two events can give 2 points, there is a remarkably low margin for error in getting the peace...and if it then turns out to be essentially the worst possible scenario? Sorry I credit Bioware for being mean at times in their choices, but this would just be downright cruel in a unneeded way.

by 401 Kill Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:26 pm

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the Geth only re-write environmental functions, which improve their immune systems. This is in no way indicating that the Quarians could be compromised by the Geth and end up like the Zha-Til.

And yes I will admit, I am heavily biased in favor of the Quarians, so maybe I should avoid this topic...

by Raistlin Majere Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:41 pm

401 Kill wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the Geth only re-write environmental functions, which improve their immune systems. This is in no way indicating that the Quarians could be compromised by the Geth and end up like the Zha-Til.

And yes I will admit, I am heavily biased in favor of the Quarians, so maybe I should avoid this topic...

Yeah especially since a Geth uploaded into a suit would have absolutely no control over the Quarian in the suit. Ever is a problem they can take the suit of...hopefully their immune systems will be a bit better before that becomes necesary...

by **DoomsdayDevice** Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:31 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:I get where you are coming from, but I dont think it is the outcome which will happen. One part is I trust Legion, but also because you have to remember how hard the peace is to attain. You essentially need 5 points accumulated through various events with 7 possible throughout the series. Considering two events can give 2 points, there is a remarkably low margin for error in getting the peace...and if it then turns out to be essentially the worst possible scenario? Sorry I credit Bioware for being mean at times in their choices, but this would just be downright cruel in a unneeded way.

Yeah, almost as cruel as having Synthesis require the most EMS (except for the breath scene) and then giving players a fake ending... ohwait. Laughing

by **DoomsdayDevice** Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:34 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
401 Kill wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the Geth only re-write environmental functions, which improve their immune systems. This is in no way indicating that the Quarians could be compromised by the Geth and end up like the Zha-Til.

And yes I will admit, I am heavily biased in favor of the Quarians, so maybe I should avoid this topic...

Yeah especially since a Geth uploaded into a suit would have absolutely no control over the Quarian in the suit. Ever is a problem they can take the suit of...hopefully their immune systems will be a bit better before that becomes necesary...

Yeah, until the Geth suggest to the Quarians that they should get implants, so that they can help them better and the Quarians may live without suits again. All with the best intentions, of course. (No sarcasm)

by Raistlin Majere Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:38 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
401 Kill wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the Geth only re-write environmental functions, which improve their immune systems. This is in no way indicating that the Quarians could be compromised by the Geth and end up like the Zha-Til.

And yes I will admit, I am heavily biased in favor of the Quarians, so maybe I should avoid this topic...

Yeah especially since a Geth uploaded into a suit would have absolutely no control over the Quarian in the suit. Ever is a problem they can take the suit of...hopefully their immune systems will be a bit better before that becomes necesary...

Yeah, until the Geth suggest to the Quarians that they should get implants, so that they can help them better and the Quarians may live without suits again. All with the best intentions, of course. (No sarcasm)

I think it will take some serious time before anyone lets an AI into their implants after the Reaper invasion, two times over for any kind of large scale application among Quarian's considering their history with AI. Any flaw in the code would most likely become apparent long before it go to that point.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:46 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
401 Kill wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the Geth only re-write environmental functions, which improve their immune systems. This is in no way indicating that the Quarians could be compromised by the Geth and end up like the Zha-Til.

And yes I will admit, I am heavily biased in favor of the Quarians, so maybe I should avoid this topic...

Yeah especially since a Geth uploaded into a suit would have absolutely no control over the Quarian in the suit. Ever is a problem they can take the suit of...hopefully their immune systems will be a bit better before that becomes necesary...

Yeah, until the Geth suggest to the Quarians that they should get implants, so that they can help them better and the Quarians may live without suits again. All with the best intentions, of course. (No sarcasm)

I think it will take some serious time before anyone lets an AI into their implants after the Reaper invasion, two times over for any kind of large scale application among Quarian's considering their history with AI. Any flaw in the code would most likely become apparent long before it go to that point.

And I'd like to think ~~it would take some serious time~~ by now we should be well aware that upgrading synthetics with Reaper code might not be the safest course of action.

by Raistlin Majere Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:51 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
401 Kill wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the Geth only re-write environmental functions, which improve their immune systems. This is in no way indicating that the Quarians could be compromised by the Geth and end up like the Zha-Til.

And yes I will admit, I am heavily biased in favor of the Quarians, so maybe I should avoid this topic...

Yeah especially since a Geth uploaded into a suit would have absolutely no control over the Quarian in the suit. Ever is a problem they can take the suit of...hopefully their immune systems will be a bit better before that becomes necesary...

Yeah, until the Geth suggest to the Quarians that they should get implants, so that they can help them better and the Quarians may live without suits again. All with the best intentions, of course. (No sarcasm)

I think it will take some serious time before anyone lets an AI into their implants after the Reaper invasion, two times over for any kind of large scale application among Quarian's considering their history with AI. Any flaw in the code would most likely become apparent long before it go to that point.

And I'd like to think ~~it would take some serious time~~ by now we should be well aware that upgrading synthetics with Reaper code might not be the safest course of action.

Actaully the last Synthetic to get upgraded with Reaper tech (before the Geth) turned out to be an invaluable asset (EDI) just saying Joyful

by Terramine Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:51 pm

I still don't know what to think about the fact that there is no reason for the Geth to have that Organic to Geth Consensus interface in the first place. It smells of a trap big time, I know it's kind of off topic but I am REALLY suspicious of it.

by Raistlin Majere Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:53 pm

IronicParticle wrote:I still don't know what to think about the fact that there is no reason for the Geth to have that Human to Geth Consensus interface in the first place. It smells of a trap big time, I know it's kind of off topic but I am REALLY suspicious of it.

Shepard has enough Synthetic bits for a VI / Organic hybrid AI to seize semi control of him and alter his perceptions of reality (Overlord). Might be what made him able to hook up?

by protognosis Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:54 pm

I agree. Shepard being half robot makes it easier for her to jump into the Geth Matrix.

by Terramine Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:56 pm

Which would just mean it was designed for someone just like him/her? How many other people are like Shepard, being part Synthetic and all?

by **DoomsdayDevice** Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:04 pm

IronicParticle wrote:Which would just mean it was designed for someone just like him/her? How many other people are like Shepard, being part Synthetic and all?

I think the original purpose of the device is to upload Geth programs to and from the physical platforms.

by Terramine Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:16 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:Which would just mean it was designed for someone just like him/her? How many other people are like Shepard, being part Synthetic and all?

I think the original purpose of the device is to upload Geth programs to and from the physical platforms.

Wait a minute....

You can't take a person out of their body no matter the amount nor type of technological implants. So according to you Shepard died, you take the "software" out of an organic and they are dead, you only can create a copy >.>

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:17 am

IronicParticle wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:Which would just mean it was designed for someone just like him/her? How many other people are like Shepard, being part Synthetic and all?

I think the original purpose of the device is to upload Geth programs to and from the physical platforms.
Wait a minute....

You can't take a person out of their body no matter the amount nor type of technological implants. So according to you Shepard died, you take the "software" out of an organic and they are dead, you only can create a copy >.>

No, it would be possible to let the consensus interface with Shepard by communicating with his implants. No need for Shepard to die at all.

by ZerebusPrime Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:46 am

Regarding how hard it is to establish the peace between the Geth and Quarians, may I reiterate that this outcome is the best one for EARTH because it adds two of the largest space fleets in the galaxy to your multispecies armada.

If war assets meant anything at all, then the payoff would have been right there.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:18 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:Regarding how hard it is to establish the peace between the Geth and Quarians, may I reiterate that this outcome is the best one for EARTH because it adds two of the largest space fleets in the galaxy to your multispecies armada.

If war assets meant anything at all, then the payoff would have been right there.

Yes, you have the pay-off in this game, in terms of getting EMS for both of the fleets. The backfiring would be in the hypothetical next game.

by ZerebusPrime Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:45 am

I just had a thought.
If we wipe out the Geth, some Quarians somewhere are likely to build more (re: Admiral Xen).
If we wipe out the Quarians, the Geth may guilt trip themselves into resurrecting the Quarian race through cloning.
The potential joining of the two races in ME4 could be inevitable regardless of our choices in ME3.

by Terramine Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:32 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:Which would just mean it was designed for someone just like him/her? How many other people are like Shepard, being part Synthetic and all?

I think the original purpose of the device is to upload Geth programs to and from the physical platforms.
Wait a minute....

You can't take a person out of their body no matter the amount nor type of technological implants. So according to you Shepard died, you take the "software" out of an organic and they are dead, you only can create a copy >.>

No, it would be possible to let the consensus interface with Shepard by communicating with his implants. No need for Shepard to die at all.

It shouldn't be doing what you are saying, because that's like using your computer as a toaster or a coffee maker. It was built for Geth platforms, that's ALL the technology in it should be capable of doing. But somehow it just happens to be built with the hardware required for Shepard to do something he/she normally shouldn't be able to do?

Like I said, that's like me using my computer to make coffee even though it's a normal computer. There is nowhere to put the coffee in this regular computer, I could pour it inside of it but that wouldn't make coffee >.>

by draconian139 Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:49 pm

No, its more like using your toaster to make bagels instead of toast. Its still interfacing with synthetics, its just in the form of Shepard's implants instead of Geth. We also don't know exactly how it works, maybe it copies and uploads Shepard's mind to the consensus and then downloads the new memories of how his mind represented the consensus back to Shepard.

by Terramine Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:09 pm

draconian139 wrote:No, its more like using your toaster to make bagels instead of toast. Its still interfacing with synthetics, its just in the form of Shepard's implants instead of Geth. We also don't know exactly how it works, maybe it copies and uploads Shepard's mind to the consensus and then downloads the new memories of how his mind represented the consensus back to Shepard.

What you are saying only makes sense if the Geth themselves ever use it to "network" with it instead of actually being moved into the consensus. Being moved into something, and interacting with it are 2 different things and you need to specifically design it to do both in order to do them. If you designed it for 1 only, the other should be impossible to do.

At the very least, my point is the Geth never use it for what Shepard is doing yet they still at least had to have that specific usage in mind when making it, which is once again very trap-like. Like they built it specifically so Organics, or even more specifically Shepard Himself/Herself could interface with the consensus.

by Raistlin Majere Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:15 pm

IronicParticle wrote:
draconian139 wrote:No, its more like using your toaster to make bagels instead of toast. Its still interfacing with synthetics, its just in the form of Shepard's implants instead of Geth. We also don't know exactly how it works, maybe it copies and uploads Shepard's mind to the consensus and then downloads the new memories of how his mind represented the consensus back to Shepard.
What you are saying only makes sense if the Geth themselves ever use it to "network" with it instead of actually being moved into the consensus. Being moved into something, and interacting with it are 2 different things and you need to specifically design it to do both in order to do them. If you designed it for 1 only, the other should be impossible to do.

At the very least, my point is the Geth never use it for what Shepard is doing yet they still at least had to have that specific usage in mind when making it, which is once again very trap-like. Like they built it specifically so Organics, or even more specifically Shepard himself/Herself to interface with the consensus.

Actually we see quite clearly what the pods are for entering the place. They are for the Geth bodies to upload or download from the consensus as evidenced by several Geth primes in the other pods. So we can quite safely say the pods are for upload into the consensus. How it works on Shepard is different story, but possibly the Geth prepared a number of pods for the Quarians? As a way to show the Quarians or any other race what it is and more important what happened during the morning war?

Also regarding the Prime units we can be pretty certain that if the code is faulty they will be the first to shows signs. I mean the prime units are released from Reaper control which either meant that we did do some permanent damage to the Reaper code or Legion modified it while we were in there to give them the same code as him.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:06 pm

What's also interesting is that Legion, once you free him, lowers the shields of the Dreadnought as a sign of good will.

But as a result, Shepard almost gets killed. Sure, you could blame the Quarians, but their reaction wasn't entirely unpredictable.

I don't even think Legion is doing it on purpose, he means well, but he doesn't even realize he's being controlled. Just like every other victim of indoctrination.

by Terramine Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:51 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:
draconian139 wrote:*Snip
*Snip*

Actually we see quite clearly what the pods are for entering the place. They are for the Geth bodies to upload or download from the consensus as evidenced by several Geth primes in the other pods. So we can quite safely say the pods are for upload into the consensus. How it works on Shepard is different story, but possibly the Geth prepared a number of pods for the Quarians? As a way to show the Quarians or any other race what it is and more important what happened during the morning war?

Also regarding the Prime units we can be pretty certain that if the code is faulty they will be the first to shows signs. I mean the prime units are released from Reaper control which either meant that we did do some permanent damage to the Reaper code or Legion modified it while we were in there to give them the same code as him.

Who said that I was suggesting it was for the reason you were thinking? There could be a million ways to sabotage Shepard. You suggest it could be possible it creates a copy of Shepard of sorts, then transmits the data back to the real Shepard. Kind of like an Avatar from the movie Avatar or a Surrogate but instead digital.

Doesn't that mean they could secretly place whatever data they want and transmit it back to Shepard's brain without anyone knowing? I've tried looking at the Consensus as a trap just for the sake of seeing what dark motives could be behind it. I mean there does seem to be something behind the idea that Black enters an unconscious state, and White ascends within the subconscious or whatever.

The amount of different unpleasant possibilities alone calls into question how much we really should trust this thing. There could be perfectly legit reasons for entering the consensus, but that doesn't mean the Reapers couldn't have used it's inevitable required use to try and do SOMETHING in their favor.

by Humakt Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:06 pm

Is it possible that Shepard is not really a human at all after his early demise in ME 2?

I know the games have tried to dissuade us from such doubts but there are couple things that would challenge that point of view. First Overlord can control Shepard's limbs and influence his/her senses. Second is the Geth Consensus.

We know Cerberus reconstructed Shepard, but how much of him/her had to be substituted with tech? At least Shepard's eyes, part of his spine...

Not that I seriously consider such possibility, just bringing it up.

by Sponsored content