Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Rifneno on Sun May 19, 2013 12:33 am

Humakt83 wrote:
Rifneno wrote:I can't believe this dumbass topic is still going.

There is no option to NOT murder the geth without letting Legion upload the code. Therefor, uploading the code is at worst a neutral decision.

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE IT SO THAT PURPOSEFULLY WIPING OUT A RACE THAT WANTS TO BE FRIENDS IS THE RIGHT DECISION.

End of story. Period. /Thread. This is as bad as demersel's time traveling derelict man who's secretly a dinosaur Nixon from an alternate dimension where the Reapers are just practical jokers and all asari are men theory.

The galaxy never rewards naive. You just got swayed by Legion's efficient puppy eye.

The whole thing smells fishy as hell, but guess honey badgers don't have good sense of smell.

This thing has merit whether you like it or not.

All I smell is your bullshit. Legion's the only reason that the geth and quarians can make peace and unite against the Reapers. I don't know if you've noticed, but indoctrinated agents tend to HELP the Reapers, not hinder them.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Humakt on Sun May 19, 2013 8:59 am

Rifneno wrote:
All I smell is your bullshit. Legion's the only reason that the geth and quarians can make peace and unite against the Reapers. I don't know if you've noticed, but indoctrinated agents tend to HELP the Reapers, not hinder them.

All this time, and you still don't realize how indoctrination works. TIM was hindering the Reapers efforts in Mass Effect 2 while arguably still playing to their tune somewhat.

That Geth suddenly want to mimic organic life (growth) by using the Reaper technology should give enough of a hint that Legion might be compromised.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sun May 19, 2013 11:37 am

Humakt83 wrote:
Rifneno wrote:
All I smell is your bullshit. Legion's the only reason that the geth and quarians can make peace and unite against the Reapers. I don't know if you've noticed, but indoctrinated agents tend to HELP the Reapers, not hinder them.

All this time, and you still don't realize how indoctrination works. TIM was hindering the Reapers efforts in Mass Effect 2 while arguably still playing to their tune somewhat.

That Geth suddenly want to mimic organic life (growth) by using the Reaper technology should give enough of a hint that Legion might be compromised.
1.TIM wasn't indoctrinated, and if he was then he was still playing to their tune. We already can tell they don't give 2 fucks about being delayed.

2.This cannot be the same anyways, Geth are software. The process is as simple as a change of logic(heretics) and bam there is only helping the reapers.

3.No not like organic life, just true AI status. To be people....


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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Rifneno on Sun May 19, 2013 12:38 pm

Humakt83 wrote:
Rifneno wrote:
All I smell is your bullshit. Legion's the only reason that the geth and quarians can make peace and unite against the Reapers. I don't know if you've noticed, but indoctrinated agents tend to HELP the Reapers, not hinder them.

All this time, and you still don't realize how indoctrination works. TIM was hindering the Reapers efforts in Mass Effect 2 while arguably still playing to their tune somewhat.

That Geth suddenly want to mimic organic life (growth) by using the Reaper technology should give enough of a hint that Legion might be compromised.

And all this time, you haven't a clue how the Reapers work. They do not needlessly sacrifice capital ships (and probably not destroyers). Collectors? Sure, they don't give a damn about their mindless organic slaves. They give lots of damns about real Reapers. From Vigil to the novels, they tell us time and time again that the Reapers are cautious and patient. The reason is because when you only get a chance to build ONE capital ship every 50,000 years (and only a chance, see: Protheans), it'd be beyond idiotic to sacrifice them needlessly. So you can rest assured that the Reapers did not help build the Sword fleet. Any aces up their sleeves would have been pulled before London. Hence why the cloned rachni queen betrays the Alliance before London. The geth had almost as many dreadnoughts as the turians. Their participation in the Sword battle WILL cost the lives of multiple Reapers. If the Reapers could have prevented it, they would have. Learn your lore.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sun May 19, 2013 12:48 pm

Rifneno wrote:
Humakt83 wrote:
Rifneno wrote:
All I smell is your bullshit. Legion's the only reason that the geth and quarians can make peace and unite against the Reapers. I don't know if you've noticed, but indoctrinated agents tend to HELP the Reapers, not hinder them.

All this time, and you still don't realize how indoctrination works. TIM was hindering the Reapers efforts in Mass Effect 2 while arguably still playing to their tune somewhat.

That Geth suddenly want to mimic organic life (growth) by using the Reaper technology should give enough of a hint that Legion might be compromised.

And all this time, you haven't a clue how the Reapers work. They do not needlessly sacrifice capital ships (and probably not destroyers). Collectors? Sure, they don't give a damn about their mindless organic slaves. They give lots of damns about real Reapers. From Vigil to the novels, they tell us time and time again that the Reapers are cautious and patient. The reason is because when you only get a chance to build ONE capital ship every 50,000 years (and only a chance, see: Protheans), it'd be beyond idiotic to sacrifice them needlessly. So you can rest assured that the Reapers did not help build the Sword fleet. Any aces up their sleeves would have been pulled before London. Hence why the cloned rachni queen betrays the Alliance before London. The geth had almost as many dreadnoughts as the turians. Their participation in the Sword battle WILL cost the lives of multiple Reapers. If the Reapers could have prevented it, they would have. Learn your lore.
Not to mention they don't even need the Geth, it's risky AND pointless. They can win anyways, why do they need the Geth? Without the Geth being on our side for the time being, you can bet they'd have a lot less damage done to themselves.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Humakt on Sun May 19, 2013 1:29 pm

IronicParticle wrote:

1.TIM wasn't indoctrinated, and if he was then he was still playing to their tune. We already can tell they don't give 2 fucks about being delayed.


Indoctrination is not on/off switch that just happens. It's progressive and based on suggestion as is evident in Retribution novel. It is NEVER total mind control.


2.This cannot be the same anyways, Geth are software. The process is as simple as a change of logic(heretics) and bam there is only helping the reapers.

If it were that simple, there would never have been Geth/Quarian war to begin with. And we already saw how the Reaper code affects Geth, it replicates itself.



3.No not like organic life, just true AI status. To be people....

They wanted to become individuals instead of collective super housing they originally wanted.

Rifneno wrote:

And all this time, you haven't a clue how the Reapers work. They do not needlessly sacrifice capital ships (and probably not destroyers). Collectors? Sure, they don't give a damn about their mindless organic slaves. They give lots of damns about real Reapers. From Vigil to the novels, they tell us time and time again that the Reapers are cautious and patient. The reason is because when you only get a chance to build ONE capital ship every 50,000 years (and only a chance, see: Protheans), it'd be beyond idiotic to sacrifice them needlessly. So you can rest assured that the Reapers did not help build the Sword fleet. Any aces up their sleeves would have been pulled before London. Hence why the cloned rachni queen betrays the Alliance before London. The geth had almost as many dreadnoughts as the turians. Their participation in the Sword battle WILL cost the lives of multiple Reapers. If the Reapers could have prevented it, they would have. Learn your lore.

They sacrificed nothing. If Legion had been under total Reaper control he wouldn't have helped Shepard in Dreadnought. Sending one destroyer to take control of the Geth was valuable to them.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sun May 19, 2013 3:44 pm

"If it were that simple, there would never have been Geth/Quarian war to begin with. And we already saw how the Reaper code affects Geth, it replicates itself."

Um... nothing you are saying is making any sense at all.

"They wanted to become individuals instead of collective super housing they originally wanted."

You mean... less like the Reapers? Awesome. But it's not an organic exclusive thing, EDI never once was heading for what the Geth were. In fact, she goes down the same path as organics. Organics go down it, because they learn certain stimuli such as pain, etc. EDI, was shown things like love and whatnot being around Shepard.

Anyways I really don't see Bioware pulling the geth against us. In narrative they added a discussion on earth with Geth to strengthen the idea that the Geth won't fail to repay their redemption. Never mind that, bioware would have to create plot holes and dumbfuckery to allow us to win. We can't win against the Geth. So you really are arguing that we are going to lose.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Sun May 19, 2013 6:11 pm

Also the Geth becoming individuals on their own do not kill the consensus from what we are told. They can still link up and share information, it is just individuals sharing it and linking together.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mon May 20, 2013 9:03 pm

Humakt83 wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:2.This cannot be the same anyways, Geth are software. The process is as simple as a change of logic(heretics) and bam there is only helping the reapers.

If it were that simple, there would never have been Geth/Quarian war to begin with. And we already saw how the Reaper code affects Geth, it replicates itself.
The replication only occurs because the server Shepard enters is connected to the Reaper Dreadnaught. If it replicated no matter what, Legion would have turned on us long ago since he has Reaper Code fragments in him, but since he is detached from the Reaper Destroyer, it doesn't replicate.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by ZerebusPrime on Mon May 20, 2013 9:21 pm

Thing is, I'm not comfortable with even dormant Reaper code. It's all blackbox technology. We rather pointedly DON'T know how it works.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Mon May 20, 2013 9:39 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:Thing is, I'm not comfortable with even dormant Reaper code. It's all blackbox technology. We rather pointedly DON'T know how it works.

But such knowledge can be achieved. The Thanix Cannon is based around understanding and replicating Sovereigns guns. EDI also contains Reaper fragments as well as their IFF and I don't see many doubting her loyalty.

It all comes down to Legion though. We don't know what he did to the code he carried, how he might have understood, manipulated or changed it.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by dorktainian on Mon May 20, 2013 9:54 pm

I dont think edi is legit at all. I've said many times i dont trust her at all. also - when you enter the geth concensus - you appear to remove the reaper code, but who says it doesnt grow back when you've left?

Legion did a 360 degree flip from being a character you could sympathise with, to becoming in an instant a serious liability and requiring a bullet to the head. Reasons? well.... thats easy really.

'Does this unit have a soul?'

no more than my toaster.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Rifneno on Mon May 20, 2013 10:29 pm

dork wrote:I dont think edi is legit at all. I've said many times i dont trust her at all. also - when you enter the geth concensus - you appear to remove the reaper code, but who says it doesnt grow back when you've left?

Legion did a 360 degree flip from being a character you could sympathise with, to becoming in an instant a serious liability and requiring a bullet to the head. Reasons? well.... thats easy really.

'Does this unit have a soul?'

no more than my toaster.

Do you understand that the organic brain is little more than a biological computer? No more than my toaster does.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by ZerebusPrime on Mon May 20, 2013 10:45 pm

The one example of Reaper code where we definitely know what its end result is was given to us in Mass Effect 2: the Geth Heretic Virus. It alters a subtle computational result that propagates errors into higher computations, resulting in changes to the Geth's decision making. In this case, it was whether or not to accept the Reapers' offers of ascension.

In Mass Effect 2, Legion states flatly that the Geth make their own future. In Mass Effect 3, Legion has embraced the Reaper Code (in whole or part) after receiving said code himself as a software upgrade.

The coincidence that Legion has made this change of heart in the same timeframe as receiving a Reaper software upgrade, in light of what the ME2 virus did, is very discouraging.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Mon May 20, 2013 10:48 pm

Rifneno wrote:
dork wrote:I dont think edi is legit at all. I've said many times i dont trust her at all. also - when you enter the geth concensus - you appear to remove the reaper code, but who says it doesnt grow back when you've left?

Legion did a 360 degree flip from being a character you could sympathise with, to becoming in an instant a serious liability and requiring a bullet to the head. Reasons? well.... thats easy really.

'Does this unit have a soul?'

no more than my toaster.

Do you understand that the organic brain is little more than a biological computer? No more than my toaster does.

Agreed, Rif.

We are already charting our brain, finding out exactly how it works and unless something truly mind blowing is discovered every part of our brain and its functions could be recreated in a machine or computer. And at that point said created mind would be no different from our own.

At that point the question of what rights such an artificially created mind would have would crop up, but I say it would have every single right we humans have. Because really once the mind is the same, the only thing separating a robot from a human would be a metallic body and a artificial origin and giving them less rights due to that would be wrong.

I personally like to look at it like the "what makes a monster a monster?" argument. Just because it is different of body does not mean it necessarily that different of mind and the question then becomes if you kill the monster for how it looks or for how it acts and what its intentions are.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Mon May 20, 2013 10:51 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:The one example of Reaper code where we definitely know what its end result is was given to us in Mass Effect 2: the Geth Heretic Virus. It alters a subtle computational result that propagates errors into higher computations, resulting in changes to the Geth's decision making. In this case, it was whether or not to accept the Reapers' offers of ascension.

In Mass Effect 2, Legion states flatly that the Geth make their own future. In Mass Effect 3, Legion has embraced the Reaper Code (in whole or part) after receiving said code himself as a software upgrade.

The coincidence that Legion has made this change of heart in the same timeframe as receiving a Reaper software upgrade, in light of what the ME2 virus did, is very discouraging.

As i have pointed out (repeatedly) Legion does not have much of a choice in the matter.

Their attempts at achieving the future he talked about was blown to pieces by the Quarians who are now threatening to destroy his entire species! The only thing which can save his species is the upgrades he is carrying.

Try asking yourself what you would do in that situation.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by ZerebusPrime on Tue May 21, 2013 1:48 am

Raistlin Majere wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:The one example of Reaper code where we definitely know what its end result is was given to us in Mass Effect 2: the Geth Heretic Virus. It alters a subtle computational result that propagates errors into higher computations, resulting in changes to the Geth's decision making. In this case, it was whether or not to accept the Reapers' offers of ascension.

In Mass Effect 2, Legion states flatly that the Geth make their own future. In Mass Effect 3, Legion has embraced the Reaper Code (in whole or part) after receiving said code himself as a software upgrade.

The coincidence that Legion has made this change of heart in the same timeframe as receiving a Reaper software upgrade, in light of what the ME2 virus did, is very discouraging.

As i have pointed out (repeatedly) Legion does not have much of a choice in the matter.

Their attempts at achieving the future he talked about was blown to pieces by the Quarians who are now threatening to destroy his entire species! The only thing which can save his species is the upgrades he is carrying.

Try asking yourself what you would do in that situation.

What caused Legion to accept the upgrade to begin with is irrelevant relative to determining its effects upon him. You can make a deal with the devil to save countless innocent lives, but chances are you're still going to go to Hell for it.

The key word in my original post is "embrace". Legion sees the results of the Reaper code as a thing of beauty worthy of protecting, not as someone else's idea of what the Geth should be being imposed upon them. The initial upgrade and the final upload may both have occurred under duress, but the subtleties are what are most disturbing.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Rifneno on Tue May 21, 2013 2:06 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:What caused Legion to accept the upgrade to begin with is irrelevant relative to determining its effects upon him. You can make a deal with the devil to save countless innocent lives, but chances are you're still going to go to Hell for it.

The key word in my original post is "embrace". Legion sees the results of the Reaper code as a thing of beauty worthy of protecting, not as someone else's idea of what the Geth should be being imposed upon them. The initial upgrade and the final upload may both have occurred under duress, but the subtleties are what are most disturbing.

In that conversation, what color are the regular and modified geth processes shown on the display?

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by ZerebusPrime on Tue May 21, 2013 4:52 am

Rifneno wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:What caused Legion to accept the upgrade to begin with is irrelevant relative to determining its effects upon him. You can make a deal with the devil to save countless innocent lives, but chances are you're still going to go to Hell for it.

The key word in my original post is "embrace". Legion sees the results of the Reaper code as a thing of beauty worthy of protecting, not as someone else's idea of what the Geth should be being imposed upon them. The initial upgrade and the final upload may both have occurred under duress, but the subtleties are what are most disturbing.

In that conversation, what color are the regular and modified geth processes shown on the display?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the processes go from being blue to being this red monster. And yes, it ends up looking like a gaggle of neurons and no I have no problem with that.
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue May 21, 2013 2:51 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:
Raistlin Majere wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:The one example of Reaper code where we definitely know what its end result is was given to us in Mass Effect 2: the Geth Heretic Virus. It alters a subtle computational result that propagates errors into higher computations, resulting in changes to the Geth's decision making. In this case, it was whether or not to accept the Reapers' offers of ascension.

In Mass Effect 2, Legion states flatly that the Geth make their own future. In Mass Effect 3, Legion has embraced the Reaper Code (in whole or part) after receiving said code himself as a software upgrade.

The coincidence that Legion has made this change of heart in the same timeframe as receiving a Reaper software upgrade, in light of what the ME2 virus did, is very discouraging.

As i have pointed out (repeatedly) Legion does not have much of a choice in the matter.

Their attempts at achieving the future he talked about was blown to pieces by the Quarians who are now threatening to destroy his entire species! The only thing which can save his species is the upgrades he is carrying.

Try asking yourself what you would do in that situation.

What caused Legion to accept the upgrade to begin with is irrelevant relative to determining its effects upon him. You can make a deal with the devil to save countless innocent lives, but chances are you're still going to go to Hell for it.

The key word in my original post is "embrace". Legion sees the results of the Reaper code as a thing of beauty worthy of protecting, not as someone else's idea of what the Geth should be being imposed upon them. The initial upgrade and the final upload may both have occurred under duress, but the subtleties are what are most disturbing.

Exactly.


As for what colour the upgrades are presented with, I'm pretty sure it was Rif himself who said we shouldn't be assigning significance to every instance of the use of red, blue or green in the game. But I see we're being liberal with that. So much so, that some are basically arguing that the Reaper code is actually a good thing.


Last edited by DoomsdayDevice on Tue May 21, 2013 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue May 21, 2013 3:00 pm

It can be a good thing depending on what level of understanding and rewriting has been put into it. There are plenty of examples of Reaper technology being turned against them with no signs of drawback.

Thanix cannon, EDI or the Reaper IFF are all based of or have Reaper technology in them and are ome of our key assets in the battle against the Reapers.

Ultimately with the Geth we are not given enough information to know either way, but the fact that the Geth do not turn on us, despite them doing so would just about instantly snuff out any hope we might have, is a good sign.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Home run MF on Tue May 21, 2013 3:53 pm

Remember when EDI says it is weird that the Reapers used physical shackles to restrain Legion in the dreadnought?

This is a conversation that takes place between Shep and Legion when you free him if you don't do the Heretics quest in ME2

Shep: I thought normal geth didn't want to submit to the Reapers.
Legion: The geth serving Saren recorded him asking you a question on Virmire, Shepard-Commander.
Legion: Is submission not preferable to extinction?
Shep: Saren ended up indoctrinated, worse than a slave.
Legion: We were restrained because we agreed with your assessment.


If they were indoctrinated or whatever you wanna call it they would've turned on us and helped the Reapers destroy us like the Zha'til did, not help the quarians and put their troops under Shepard's command.

I trust Legion more than the species that started a war in the middle of a Reaper invasion.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Tue May 21, 2013 4:26 pm

We've never seen the consequences of our decisions play out in the same game.

The Geth uploading themselves into the Quarian suits and rewriting routines is a ticking time bomb, I'm afraid.

That is an interesting bit of dialogue though, Home Run. I hadn't seen that before.

Although I do think it doesn't change the fact that it's still possible that Legion was rewritten when he was restrained.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Home run MF on Tue May 21, 2013 6:14 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:We've never seen the consequences of our decisions play out in the same game.

The Geth uploading themselves into the Quarian suits and rewriting routines is a ticking time bomb, I'm afraid.

That is an interesting bit of dialogue though, Home Run. I hadn't seen that before.

Although I do think it doesn't change the fact that it's still possible that Legion was rewritten when he was restrained.

So Reaper controlled Geth just stand around watching their masters get blown up, not just that but contribute to it? I doesn't make sense.

They're the Pinnacle of Evolution™ they'd never let their minions fight them, all they do is re-purpose enemies into ground troops so they only have to lazor stuff from orbit to minimize capital ship loses. If they had a chance to destroy the Normandy (Legion was there for quite some time) or destroy the Crucible as Rif said, they would have done it.

Seriously they even say the Quarians are too frail to even be of use to them (don't even show interest when they arrive), and now they're planning all this just to have an army of Quarians after the war? Really?


Last edited by Home run MF on Tue May 21, 2013 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : aquaplaning)

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"Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by it's very nature, chaotic." - Morrigan
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Home run MF
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by RavenEyry on Tue May 21, 2013 6:34 pm

dork wrote:
Legion did a 360 degree flip from being a character you could sympathise with, to becoming in an instant a serious liability and requiring a bullet to the head. Reasons? well.... thats easy really.
360 is a full circle. I think '180' was the number you were looking for.
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RavenEyry
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

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