Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:23 pm

Humakt83 wrote:Is it possible that Shepard is not really a human at all after his early demise in ME 2?

I know the games have tried to dissuade us from such doubts but there are couple things that would challenge that point of view. First Overlord can control Shepard's limbs and influence his/her senses. Second is the Geth Consensus.

We know Cerberus reconstructed Shepard, but how much of him/her had to be substituted with tech? At least Shepard's eyes, part of his spine...


Not that I seriously consider such possibility, just bringing it up.
It's possible, which means this whole time Shepard actually stayed dead and we were playing as a whole different person lol But honestly I doubt it, they wanted Shepard for.. well Shepard. Not just their image or their abilities, but who they are. A person cannot be copied, this is evident with the whole black box or whatever. Even if it was possible, I doubt Cerberus discovered how.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:24 pm

Shep's brain is organic. That's what counts.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:52 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Shep's brain is organic. That's what counts.
Did you know a person can survive without half a brain because the half they still have takes on the responsibilities of the missing half? What if you cut your brain in half and put it into another body? Would they both be you?

Also that means Cerberus could've made 2 Shepards.... not even the Reapers would stand a chance lol!

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:42 pm

Now here's a thing I'd like to address again.



Remember that we noticed how people who are being 'freed from indoctrination' are always shot with the Predator, while people whom we betray always get shot with the 'scumbag Carnifex'?

Well, Legion always seemed the 'exception' to this trend. But if you look at my theory (the Geth are indoctrinated/rewritten), then it makes perfect sense that the Predator was used.

Someone said "It doesn't always have to be symbolism".

I think that's a flawed argument. Because if something is symbolism, then it should be consistent, at the very least in very important moments. If it isn't always symbolism, then we can't be sure what to conclude from it.

I don't think we should be 'bending the rules' to fit our preferred interpretation. We're always saying it means something, we're constantly pointing out the consistency of it to other people, but when Legion gets shot, we go "nah, that means nothing, it's not always symbolism". Does not compute, in my opinion.

Now I understand it can't always mean something when the Predator is shown, but surely it must mean something at moments of pivotal importance in the story, such as when choosing to kill Legion/the Geth.

Right?

(Edited for grumpiness, posted before coffee lol)

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:33 am

I'll just drop this here:

Shepard: Some of the Geth followed Sovereign, the "heretics".
Legion: The heretics accepted their technology.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DSharrah on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:44 am

Not sure if it has been said, but given that a part of this discussion seems to revolve around the question of risk vs reward I think that it is fair to ask - do you feel the same way about the Genophage? Curing the Genophage has just as many risks attached to it as allowing Legion to upload the code...and faking the cure has huge potential consequences for the galaxy, similar to losing the Geth fleet. Now, I do admit that the Genophage arc at least has the potential to be different if you have killed Wrex - and you can get the best of both worlds. But I think that it is a fair comparison when you look at it from a risk vs reward perspective.


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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:29 am

Guys
Guys
Guys

You don't think we're NOT going to fight geth in ME4, do you?

I mean even in ME3, where the geth like you the most, you get some missions fighting them (yes yes Reaper control).

The geth will always be our synthetic frienemies.

It's up to our choices to determine how much of a friend or how much of an enemy they will be.

Yes, I think Legion is an ally.

But yes, I think he's kinda compromised, and we'll see the results later on.

But no, I don't think the geth fleet over Earth is going to stab us in the back.

The Reapers could very well be defeated over Earth and have to retreat, but they can also very well use the geth in a way to weaken the galaxy in the meantime.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:36 am

DSharrah wrote:Not sure if it has been said, but given that a part of this discussion seems to revolve around the question of risk vs reward I think that it is fair to ask - do you feel the same way about the Genophage? Curing the Genophage has just as many risks attached to it as allowing Legion to upload the code...and faking the cure has huge potential consequences for the galaxy, similar to losing the Geth fleet. Now, I do admit that the Genophage arc at least has the potential to be different if you have killed Wrex - and you can get the best of both worlds. But I think that it is a fair comparison when you look at it from a risk vs reward perspective.

Absolutely not.

I have Wrex as the leader of the clans, I have Eve, those two together will unite the Krogan clans. The Krogans are ready this time. I have complete faith.

Wrex doesn't give me any reason to doubt him, contrary to Legion.

But the biggest, most important reason of all is that there is no Reaper technology involved in curing the genophage. That is the whole point of this Geth situation. Synthetics are easy prey for the Reapers. They rewrite them to screw over organics. It's a pattern.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:39 am

SwobyJ wrote:Guys
Guys
Guys

You don't think we're NOT going to fight geth in ME4, do you?

I mean even in ME3, where the geth like you the most, you get some missions fighting them (yes yes Reaper control).

The geth will always be our synthetic frienemies.

It's up to our choices to determine how much of a friend or how much of an enemy they will be.

Yes, I think Legion is an ally.

But yes, I think he's kinda compromised, and we'll see the results later on.

But no, I don't think the geth fleet over Earth is going to stab us in the back.

The Reapers could very well be defeated over Earth and have to retreat, but they can also very well use the geth in a way to weaken the galaxy in the meantime.

I don't think the Geth fleet over Earth will stab us in the back.

I think the Quarians could be horribly victimized in the next game. I could see the two become one in a gruesome synthesis, thanks to using the Reaper code.

The whole thing stinks of synthesis and Reaper solutions.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:44 am

Even if they betray us later down the road, is that any reason to kill them now? The Geth are mechanical life forms, so they were doomed from the beginning to be prone to the machine version of Biological warfare... ergo, they were prone to hacking attempts.

However this is no basis for mass murder, in fact there is alternate solutions that are infinitely preferable to slavery or genocide of the Geth.

Destroy gets a ton of criticism for being genocide of the Geth... however this is a misguided concept. Do we blame the hostages, the person trying to free hostages, or the person holding everyone hostage? The Reapers are holding them hostage so to speak, along with the rest of the galaxy. If destroying them means the destruction of the Geth and Edi, then it's the Reaper's fault... not Shepard's.

However on Rannoch, the same cannot be said. Shepard is the one with all of the cards, nobody is held hostage unless Shepard makes a decision that allows it. For example the Geth aren't holding the Quarians hostage unless Shepard lets Legion upload the code. Vice versa for if Shepard doesn't allow the code. Everyone can even live, once again depending ONLY on Shepard. Point being that nobody is forcing anyone's hand, except for Shepard himself/herself.

I've noticed people have said Bioware would not make killing the Geth the right decision. But I am curious.... Why exactly does the Geth's corruption mean they need to be murdered? Bioware could make it so the Geth are corrupt, but at the same time that saving them is still the best choice for many reasons.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:52 am

It's not murder if your ally has been rewritten by the Reapers.

You're saving the Quarians a gruesome fate by seeing that the same thing happened to the Zha.

Reaper solutions = bad idea.

Legion no longer thinks like he used to. He's coming to different conclusions. He's been rewritten.

They have joined the Reapers willingly, and now they want to keep their upgrades.

He lied to you on three occasions.

See OP for all the rest of my reasons, there are more than enough for me. Wink

I'm not going by what Bioware would or would never do, that's meta-gaming.

I'm going for Reaper pattern recognition. Trying to avoid all the mistakes of the past cycles. Like the Zha'til. Like trying to control the Reapers.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Blood Hawk on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:53 pm

I think that Legion is compromised, why ? cause we only need to look to his loyalty mission in ME2, when Legion rewrites the heretics in ME2 they turn on you.

What we need to look here is that Legion already attempted to use his version of reaper code on the heretics in ME2 and in ME3 he's repeating that so yes they'll probably will turn on us, but we'll have to see if it happens in IT DLC or in ME4.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:38 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:*snip*
Yes, yes it is murder. It's not a mercy killing nor forced because their not suffering and it's not the only solution. We can rewrite them, so you are wrong. You are right, it's a Reaper solution.... It's reverse engineering... which of course you were the one who told me that it may be necessary to defeat the Reapers and now you sit here telling me that reverse engineering needs to be destroyed -_-

Furthermore, the Geth lost self-awareness thanks to the Quarians so of course they'd prefer Survival over freedom just like an animal would. You are aware that we used to be as intelligent as any other primate right? The only difference between us and other primates is our self-awareness, take that away and we become animals. So same goes for any other intelligence, like the Geth. Now Legion was independent from the Consensus, however he could no longer use his species' reasoning to justify his own. He only preferred freedom because that is what his species concluded, now that they sided with the Reapers the very foundation for his logic is now gone. It's not his nor the Geth's fault, if anything it's the Quarians fault for damaging their intelligence.

Also the mistake wasn't in treating the Zha'til fairly... The mistake was on the Protheans side for being so cold and heartless. But hey their all-knowing deities right?.... Oh wait, their extinct. There is no reason to murder them, you are wrong.

"You can't condemn an entire race just for what they might do" - Commander Shepard, the man/woman who is always right. Adding onto Shepard's words, you especially can't condemn them until you condemn yourself for not protecting the children of the Galaxy... aka the Geth.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:02 am

IronicParticle wrote:It's reverse engineering... which of course you were the one who told me that it may be necessary to defeat the Reapers and now you sit here telling me that reverse engineering needs to be destroyed -_-

I said no such thing. In fact, I even said there's no support for it being reverse engineering. Maybe you have me confused with someone else, or maybe I am misunderstanding you.

IronicParticle wrote:Furthermore, the Geth lost self-awareness thanks to the Quarians so of course they'd prefer Survival over freedom just like an animal would. You are aware that we used to be as intelligent as any other primate right? The only difference between us and other primates is our self-awareness, take that away and we become animals. So same goes for any other intelligence, like the Geth. Now Legion was independent from the Consensus, however he could no longer use his species' reasoning to justify his own. He only preferred freedom because that is what his species concluded, now that they sided with the Reapers the very foundation for his logic is now gone. It's not his nor the Geth's fault, if anything it's the Quarians fault for damaging their intelligence.

Even if they lost intelligence due to fewer numbers, out of all possible parties they could have gone to for help, they had to join the Reapers.

IronicParticle wrote:Also the mistake wasn't in treating the Zha'til fairly... The mistake was on the Protheans side for being so cold and heartless. But hey their all-knowing deities right?.... Oh wait, their extinct. There is no reason to murder them, you are wrong.

I'm not saying I'm 100% sure I'm right - I think I explained that in the OP. If I wasn't struggling with this question, I wouldn't have made it a topic.

IronicParticle wrote:"You can't condemn an entire race just for what they might do" - Commander Shepard, the man/woman who is always right. Adding onto Shepard's words, you especially can't condemn them until you condemn yourself for not protecting the children of the Galaxy... aka the Geth.

What they might do? They're doing it right there, uploading the Reaper code. Allowing it is allowing them to become super powerful and under Reaper influence. It is like telling Saren that it's okay to get Reaper implants.

Giving an entire synthetic race Reaper upgrades. Say that ten times out loud and ask yourself if it sounds like a good idea. Wink

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:07 am

@DD:

Whoops I got you mixed up with Blur, my bad. Though as far as I know the Reaper code isn't necessarily dangerous is it? I mean, the Geth were never tricked and the code never did anything they didn't like at the time... or am I forgetting something here? As far as I knew there wasn't anything inherently wrong with the code other than it required the Reapers help, which in turn meant the Quarians were in danger.

The only thing I know of that is most certainly going to be wrong, is the same thing that's wrong with ANY form of sudden technological boost that you didn't figure out on your own. Which is exactly what caused the Krogan to blow themselves up ;)

As for losing intelligence, think of it like a wild dog... a wild dog doesn't go to a Human to be tamed, a Human goes to the dog to tame it. Nobody else came to them offering help in their state, and the first person to offer would've inevitably been who they'd accept the offer from.

I don't think you are wrong that it is bad, however I feel it's more like shit happens, and dealing with this shit later is worth saving the Geth. We don't have to kill them, and I'm sure the Quarians are keeping a close eye on them. The Quarians are racist towards the Geth, why would they give them blind faith? I don't think it will be without consequence, but I think the right thing to do is to deal with the consequences. This Reaper code is actually an inevitable issue that is to be expected from mechanical Synthetics. Do you condemn someone just because their prone to AIDS? No, you try to find a cure for aids, and all disease for that matter.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DSharrah on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:57 pm

Just thought of something this morning that I thought was relevant to this discussion...one of the arguments about not helping the Geth/letting Legion upload the code is that Legion himself has fundamentally changed from ME 2 to ME 3 - this most specifically being highlighted in his willingness to accept "Reaper" gifts. I won't bother requoting the in game evidence that supports this as it has already been done. But I do have some questions...what is Legion's expected character arc? Or more precisely, what traits of other sentient species do we expect Legion to show? And is it possible that this expected arc could explain Legion's departure from previously held beliefs? Even if it means that Legion now has character flaws that could potentially lead to disaster? And lastly, if there is this concern about the Geth using "Reaper code" why not the same concern with EDI?

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:49 am

DSharrah wrote:*snip*
You have a great point there, EDI changes into the best case scenario for an AI because her crew did all the right things and gave her the right advice.

Meanwhile Legion has been learning on his own and from his fellow Geth for the most part. It is possible for an AI to become evil even without the Reaper's intervention, while I don't believe such a conflict is inevitable at the same time it'd be stupid to say their immune to doing evil and are always going to be innocent. You have to raise them right in order to ensure they turn out like EDI. Legion could have changed opinions without becoming evil, or possibly even worse is he DID become evil... all with or without the Reaper's intervention.

But in the end, I think the most relevant point is that they can still be saved regardless. There is always another way, and so murdering them here and now is not what we should be doing. In fact murder seems to be what the Reaper's intended. We talk about this code like it's part of a plan that will take place later, but in all reality they didn't expect Shepard to obtain peace... they expected for one side to die, which apparently they leaned in favor of killing the Quarians. So at the very least we should not give them what they want, even if the code will have consequences... peace is STILL the best ending.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:00 pm

I disagree. Peace is only rewarding in this game (as you'll have both assets), but there's a good possibility you're screwed in a possible sequel.

For the Reapers, it's a win-win situation.

If one side kills the other, it's one race less to deal with for the Reapers. If you make peace, it could be two races less to deal with for the Reapers, and an extra ally for them. Net gain: three factions.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DSharrah on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:26 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:I disagree. Peace is only rewarding in this game (as you'll have both assets), but there's a good possibility you're screwed in a possible sequel.

For the Reapers, it's a win-win situation.

If one side kills the other, it's one race less to deal with for the Reapers. If you make peace, it could be two races less to deal with for the Reapers, and an extra ally for them. Net gain: three factions.

Are you sure that you aren't the embodiment of Carth Onasi? No one's arguing that there isn't risk w/making peace and helping the Geth...like I have said, there's that risk w/the Krogan (even if Wrex and Eve are the leaders - if they are not treated well on the galactic stage that could lead to problems...and at least Dalatrass Linron is going to make waves), there's that risk w/the Rachni (a risk that they clearly show in the game as you end up fighting subjugated Rachni), and there's that risk w/the merc groups lead by Aria...every decision in the game could end up bad for you, but just heading back to earth with the minimum forces is suicide. So the question is what risks are you willing to take?

I get it, for you you don't think that helping the Geth is a risk that you can take. That's fine. But just remember that there are two sides to every coin and the reward may outweigh the risk.


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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:46 pm

DSharrah wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:I disagree. Peace is only rewarding in this game (as you'll have both assets), but there's a good possibility you're screwed in a possible sequel.

For the Reapers, it's a win-win situation.

If one side kills the other, it's one race less to deal with for the Reapers. If you make peace, it could be two races less to deal with for the Reapers, and an extra ally for them. Net gain: three factions.

Are you sure that you aren't the embodiment of Carth Onasi? No one's arguing that there isn't risk w/making peace and helping the Geth...like I have said, there's that risk w/the Krogan (even if Wrex and Eve are the leaders - if they are not treated well on the galactic stage that could lead to problems...and at least Dalatrass Linron is going to make waves), there's that risk w/the Rachni (a risk that they clearly show in the game as you end up fighting subjugated Rachni), and there's that risk w/the merc groups lead by Aria...every decision in the game could end up bad for you, but just heading back to earth with the minimum forces is suicide. So the question is what risks are you willing to take?

I get it, for you you don't think that helping the Geth is a risk that you can take. That's fine. But just remember that there are two sides to every coin and the reward may outweigh the risk.

Carth Onasi? Sad

I don't understand this reaction. Did I cause offense?

And of course the rewards may outweigh the risk... I think I've explained time and again that I'm not sure of anything.

Sure, there's risk in everything, but for me, this is about not repeating the mistakes of previous cycles. The key is the Reaper code.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DSharrah on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:55 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote: snip...

Carth Onasi? Sad

I don't understand this reaction. Did I cause offense?

And of course the rewards may outweigh the risk... I think I've explained time and again that I'm not sure of anything.

Sure, there's risk in everything, but for me, this is about not repeating the mistakes of previous cycles. The key is the Reaper code.

No offense...just wondering if you could trust anyone...you know cause you'll never be betrayed if you don't trust anyone...you know like Carth. :P It was a joke...apparently poorly construed...its never a good thing in humor whn you have to explain your joke. :(

And like I said I get what you're saying I just trust Legion. Maybe I am fool for it...but so be it.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:45 pm

Ah, ok... sorry. I see what you mean now with Carth Onasi. Laughing

It's only the Geth in ME3 / Reaper code that I distrust though. I trust everyone else, even EDI.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by Terramine on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:25 am

Doomsday it seems like you are missing the point. My point isn't just that the RISK itself is worth it... but also the CONSEQUENCES are worth it. The benefit outweighs the consequences, not JUST the risk.

All it takes is the fact that, if you destroy the Geth... then you only go to prove the Reapers right. That not only is Rebellion inevitable, but that peace isn't. You can try to make the excuse that it it does not prove it because this is just the Geth alone and it's triggered by the Reapers... but the problem with that is that you are forgetting something. What the Reapers do to the Geth is not something only the Reapers are willing to do, in fact Cerberus tried to manipulate the Geth too.

Hacking AI, tampering with AI, controlling AI, Rewritting, etc it's all inevitable unto itself unless no evil people exist. Which is practically impossible, as long as evil people exist mechanical Synthetics will face these problems. However, it doesn't HAVE to be inevitable even if evil people are always around. Why? Because there is also good people, who can protect the Children of the Galaxy aka Synthetics. So as long as we are willing to protect them, and help them overcome their problems, then it won't be inevitable... thus it's the only way to peace.

It doesn't matter if EDI is the perfect example of an AI, if she gets rewritten none of that matters in the slightest. So do you murder her? Because that's a short term solution, even if the conflict does not have to be inevitable... what IS inevitable ALWAYS, is that people will create Synthetics. Not for the Catalyst's alleged reason, but because if you look at Humans for example... we are curious. We don't give a fuck if something is forbidden, the very fact that it is forbidden drives us to do it. So obviously murdering Synthetics is not the solution because more will be made and they too will suffer from the mentioned problems.

The real solution is to help the Synthetics overcome the issue... think of it like a disease, you don't kill the diseased person, you cure it. You find a way to fix the Geth's corruption, not murder them.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by richie21 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:34 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Now here's a thing I'd like to address again.

Remember that we noticed how people who are being 'freed from indoctrination' are always shot with the Predator, while people whom we betray always get shot with the 'scumbag Carnifex'?

What about TIM??
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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:54 am

richie21 wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:Now here's a thing I'd like to address again.

Remember that we noticed how people who are being 'freed from indoctrination' are always shot with the Predator, while people whom we betray always get shot with the 'scumbag Carnifex'?

What about TIM??



Predator, if you convince him he's indoctrinated. He frees himself.

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Re: Could the Quarians end up like the Zha'til if we make peace between Quarians and Geth?

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