MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

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MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by DSharrah on Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:59 pm

Drawing from all three games and the timeline in general here...

  • We are told by the catalyst of creation followed by rebellion

  • During Citadel DLC we learn that the council ordered the elimination of all AI

  • During ME 1 we learn that that at some point during the "current cycle", the council decided to make the creation of/research of AI illegal

  • In ME 1, if you speak to Tali on the Normandy about the history of the Geth, she tells you how/why the geth were created > how the geth "evolved" to start asking questions about their existence/purpose > which leads to the assumption that the Geth (if allowed to continue to evolve) would kill all organics


So if we examine the above list, you can start to make some conclusions about the timeline in general and the impact that had on "galactic culture". First, at some point during the current cycle, AI were a part of the galactic community (enough of a part that AI present on the Citadel felt that their appeal to the council would be heard before the order to destroy them would be carried out). During that time a "mystery event" occurs that causes the council to fear AI and not only order their destruction but forbid research into/creation of AI in the future. At some point after these events, the Quarian create the Geth. The Geth evolve to the point where they are "sentient", the Quarians fear their rebellion (an opinion I assume is at least influenced in part by the galactic sentiment towards AI > that can be seen in the laws against AI research), try to destroy the Geth. The Morning War follows and that conflict shapes part of the backdrop for the events during ME 1.

So two main questions...

Is it just me, or does it seem that a more accurate way to state the catalyst's statement regarding the relationship between organics and synthetics would be...."Organics create synthetics with the purpose to enchance their own lives. When their creations show signs of gaining sentience, organics fear rebellion. In their attempt to destroy their creations out of this fear, they seal their own fate."?

And secondly, what was the "mystery event" that occured during this cycle that caused the council to destroy the current AI that were present, and outlaw the future creation of other AI?

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:03 pm

I've been very curious about that event too.

And you know, the whole fact that it seemed no one talked about it.

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by TurianRebel212 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:20 pm

Who built the citadel???

Who built the Mass Relays???

Did Javiks cycle have issues with synthetics?

Was there an outside influence in the above conflict?

Do dead Gods dream?


What does the real Legion ( ME2 Legion), tell you about how the Geth view the "old machine's".


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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Maximus on Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:51 pm

TurianRebel212 wrote:Who built the citadel???

Who built the Mass Relays???

Did Javiks cycle have issues with synthetics?

Was there an outside influence in the above conflict?

Do dead Gods dream?


What does the real Legion ( ME2 Legion), tell you about how the Geth view the "old machine's".


1. Reaperz
2. Reaperz
3. Pretty much yeah! Reaperz, Zha/Zhatil/Zhawhatever
4. Do Reaperz count as "outside influence"? They are outside the galaxy and they are influencing hard everything...
5. Gods die when ppl no longer believe in them. "Dead God" is a myth. Myths don't dream. If it's Zombie, shoot it in the head!
6. You mean Geth "Heretics", right? They view Reaperz as Gods. Ultimate beings! They even have effin' altars to worship 'em!

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by DSharrah on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:32 pm

This may be foraying into scary door territory...but it would be interesting to see how the development of AI really comes about. In the terms of the MEU, does it all boil down to technology is reaper based (over simplification?), and has "bad code" (for a lack of a better term) that is doomed to lead to this conflict. Or is there another factor that comes into play? Why are there so many examples of assumed conflict in the MEU between organic and synthetic? Here are a couple of examples:

The quarian presumption of this lead to the Morning War...

In the Signal Tracking sidequest on the Citadel in ME1, the AI's presumption of this leads to no other alternative but a fight b/w it and Shep and co...

Is it possible that there is influence on both sides???

Synthetics - Hear the following whispers from the Reapers, "You don't need you creators....You can be greater than they are...Take your rightful place as your own masters."

Organics - Hear the following whispers from the Leviathans, "What have you done you fools!?...Don't you realize that they will rebel...Destroy them before they have a chance to destroy you."

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:37 pm

"technology is reaper based"

The series seems to want to make us forget this but...

Reaper is just a name.

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Maximus on Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:37 am

SwobyJ wrote:"technology is reaper based"

The series seems to want to make us forget this but...

Reaper is just a name.

Just a name, huh?
How else are we suppose to call 'em?

Big, Angry, Hybridized Cuttlefish of Doom?
Almighty Shrimps of Terror?

Got any other fancy names on minds? ;>

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:04 am

Call them machines :)

But Catalyst didn't seem to like that. I think he wants to be called God.

God's kinda a prick.

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by DSharrah on Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:31 am

SwobyJ wrote:Call them machines :)

But Catalyst didn't seem to like that. I think he wants to be called God.

God's kinda a prick.

That may be true...they definetly have their own personalities and monikers...the only two that we truly get to know are Sovereign and Harbinger. And we learn from conversations with Legion in ME 2 that while Sovereign was the moniker given by Saren, it referred to itself as Nazara. Similarily I assume that the moniker Harbinger is more attributed to it due to its well known, "We are the harbinger of your..." line that it constantly spews. It would be very interesting to learn what Harbinger would "call" itself.

I know once upon a time there was a theory that the "names" of each reaper was somehow tied to the race that had been "ascended" to create said reaper > @SwobyJ - tying into your posts in another thread about paragon shep being control oriented (and in game files suggesting this very fact), I would imagine that the reaper created from this cycle (the one that is seen in the control choice slides) would call itself "Shepard". Which would be very appropriate given the EC control choice speech...

But all of this gets away from one of the two main purposes of the thread (interesting discussion as it is)...First, what was the event? Or (maybe) more importantly, was there an event or was it influence from the reapers/leviathans? And...two, is the catalysts statement regarding creation/rebellion > more accurately creation/fear of rebellion/attempted genocide/rebellion?

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:56 am

Maybe the mysterious event was the Quarian-Geth situation. Maybe the chain of events was presented differently to / perceived differently by the galactic community. Although it seems to be no big secret that the Quarians started it by pre-emptively trying to wipe the Geth out.

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:02 am

I know once upon a time there was a theory that the "names" of each reaper was somehow tied to the race that had been "ascended" to create said reaper > @SwobyJ - tying into your posts in another thread about paragon shep being control oriented (and in game files suggesting this very fact), I would imagine that the reaper created from this cycle (the one that is seen in the control choice slides) would call itself "Shepard". Which would be very appropriate given the EC control choice speech...





THE Shepard.

And not just Control.

Reaper Controller.
Reaper Destroyer.

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Rifneno on Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:51 am

DSharrah wrote:Is it just me, or does it seem that a more accurate way to state the catalyst's statement regarding the relationship between organics and synthetics would be...."Organics create synthetics with the purpose to enchance their own lives. When their creations show signs of gaining sentience, organics fear rebellion. In their attempt to destroy their creations out of this fear, they seal their own fate."?

Yes. The accuracy of that statement isn't even really up for debate.

And secondly, what was the "mystery event" that occured during this cycle that caused the council to destroy the current AI that were present, and outlaw the future creation of other AI?

SwobyJ wrote:I've been very curious about that event too.

And you know, the whole fact that it seemed no one talked about it.

Perhaps there's nothing to talk about. It's a natural fear of ours. Look at the Terminator movie series. Or HAL. Or any number of other "new sentient machine is a monster" type forms of fiction. The truth is that we really have no idea whatsoever how a sentient machine would think or act. They are completely without precedent. So like all of the unknown, we fear and let our imaginations get the worst of us.

Also, have you read the first ME book? The Alliance gets into trouble because they had a covert AI study going on and the Council blew their top when they found out. The asari councilor says something interesting. She says that not everyone is like them (the Alliance, humans, ect.) and some (i.e. her, possibly asari in general) acknowledge the possibility that when we meet a true AI it may be friendly and not evil.

I'm not with dem in thinking the entire Citadel DLC is a dream. But I'm also not willing to take that vault bit with the unknown AI's as true yet. There's too much wrong with it. If there was really a race of AI that the Council wiped out, then it wouldn't be something easily covered up. That would be a massive event in history. It'd be like trying to cover up the Krogan Rebellions. It's just not going to happen. We'd know and it'd already be part of the canon. Besides, why are they using pre-existing robots to show what those AIs looked like? There was an excuse for that in the geth server mission, but not here.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Maybe the mysterious event was the Quarian-Geth situation. Maybe the chain of events was presented differently to / perceived differently by the galactic community. Although it seems to be no big secret that the Quarians started it by pre-emptively trying to wipe the Geth out.

Can't be. The reason everyone didn't rush to the quarians' aid was because the galaxy thought they brought it on themselves by breaking the most taboo law known to man (err, alien). The quarians even lost their Council embassy over it. They were severely punished on top of being almost wiped out and only surviving on a fleet of rickety ships. Because AI research was already the most illegal thing ever.

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:14 am

There was an excuse for that in the geth server mission, but not here.

 Wink 


Okokok hate me. Going to bed!

(but also thanks for that info. I haven't read any of the books, only read synopses and other stuff like that)

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Rifneno on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:11 am

SwobyJ wrote:
There was an excuse for that in the geth server mission, but not here.

 Wink 


Okokok hate me. Going to bed!

(but also thanks for that info. I haven't read any of the books, only read synopses and other stuff like that)


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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by DSharrah on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:14 pm

@Rifneno: Excellent points. Definetly considered that it had do with just an inate fear...but wondered if there was something more to it. *shrugs* You could be right that there is nothing to talk about.

I did find the Archive video of the "mechs" (AI) being wiped out very odd, too...but never gave it much thought beyond that. Until I started looking at the timeline and this presumption of unavoidable conflict...maybe the question I should be asking is if that event happened > how in the heck was it covered up?

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:40 pm

DSharrah wrote:@Rifneno:  Excellent points.  Definetly considered that it had do with just an inate fear...but wondered if there was something more to it.  *shrugs*  You could be right that there is nothing to talk about.

I did find the Archive video of the "mechs" (AI) being wiped out very odd, too...but never gave it much thought beyond that.  Until I started looking at the timeline and this presumption of unavoidable conflict...maybe the question I should be asking is if that event happened > how in the heck was it covered up?

Probably by claiming it was a series of defunct/virus infected/hacked VI Mechs that had gotten out of control and had to be destroyed or, if few people witnessed the actual destruction, taken in for repairs.

Anyone who actually talked to one of the AI's is afterwards dismissed as having merely been talking to said VI program and mistaking it for an AI. Any deeper digging into the event is blocked.

From there it is swept under the carpet and never spoken off again...except shortly after laws against AI (if they weren't already there) surfaced.

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Bardox on Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:54 am

A bit off topic, but as MEU AI's go, The catalyst is the ultimate AI. I think the catalyst is Harbinger. Not saying I think the AI the Leviathan created is the AI of Harbinger. Just that the thing Shepard is talking to is actually Harbinger. Might be alone in this one.

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Rankincountry on Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:24 pm

Bardox wrote:A bit off topic, but as MEU AI's go, The catalyst is the ultimate AI. I think the catalyst is Harbinger. Not saying I think the AI the Leviathan created is the AI of Harbinger. Just that the thing Shepard is talking to is actually Harbinger. Might be alone in this one.

That's kind of a key plank of IT - that the "catalyst" is a deception, part of the attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, and that it's really Harbinger (or perhaps Sovereign's intelligence uploaded into the Citadel before the destruction of his Reaper shell in ME1). Very much on topic  Wink 

And while we're talking about AI, it's just as well that no-one dobbed EDI in to the council. Traynor and Adams were able to see through her VI "disguise". In fact, thinking about it I'm surprised that no-one from Cerberus turned EDI in, think how much that could have disrupted Shepard's efforts. It would have denied Shepard a key teammate, and effectively taken Normandy out of service as EDI was so integrated into the ship's systems.

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:10 pm

Rankincountry wrote:
Bardox wrote:A bit off topic, but as MEU AI's go, The catalyst is the ultimate AI. I think the catalyst is Harbinger. Not saying I think the AI the Leviathan created is the AI of Harbinger. Just that the thing Shepard is talking to is actually Harbinger. Might be alone in this one.

That's kind of a key plank of IT - that the "catalyst" is a deception, part of the attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, and that it's really Harbinger



"Sympathy for the catalyst"

My personal theory is that the Leviathans created an AI that could control synthetics, so they could control organics themselves and synthetics through the AI. The AI controlled the synthetics and used them to harvest the Leviathans in order to harness their genetic ability to control organics. The first Reaper was built, the AI transferred to the Reaper, and Harbinger was born. The first one able to control both synthetics and organics.

Also, I still think Reapers > Leviathans (in terms of who's more powerful).

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by dorktainian on Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:27 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30290540

interesting opinion of artificial intelligence.

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Re: MEU: Artifical Intelligence?

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:58 pm

I love that last bit about Hawking's 'voice'. He may be warning about AI, but he must acknowledge that his own speech is enabled by computer programs that may be very connected to the evolution of AI.

If your goal is for everything to say 100% organic human, then yeah, AI may be your biggest enemy. You'll need to stamp it out wherever you see it, and hope to God that Javik isn't right about 'AI surpassed us long ago', elsewhere in the universe. And don't even try to contemplate that the universe is 'AI' itself.

I guess if almost everyone on Earth fought off any AI evolution that pops up, we might buy ourselves centuries. Otherwise, its full (or half) steam ahead.

Its partially a good thing that so many are creeped out by AI - it slows down what may otherwise be an AI race and a leap towards it, without possibly being ready for its implications.

One thing is nearly certain - we (humanity) WILL integrate tech into ourselves, to some extent, at some point in the generally foreseeable future (decades, centuries). Even if its as 'basic' as something like a cybernetic contact lens, the way that humans may identify (as 'self') with even something as small as that... yeah, that's big in itself. We now live in a decade where people personally identify with their phones and grieve the loss of them. Lets see what the next few decades bring.

I think some major corps already did have plans for RFID chips implanted in bodies for fast purchases and identification but there was probably all sorts of complications about that, so they may be settling for other tech for now.

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