The Catalyst = Harbinger?

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The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:50 pm

One of my theories about the Catalyst is that it is actually Harbinger. When the leviathans create it maybe they create the Citadel too to give it form, or home or whatever. After that the Catalyst creates the "first true reaper" - Harbinger. But what makes Harby so special, a leader and an individual?

As we saw in ME3, EDI has no problem existing inside the Normandy and inside doctors Evas body at the same time. Can we assume that when the Catalyst creates Harbinger it also creates a body, a vessel for itself? That would made things much easier for the reapers. That helps me to understand why Harbinger left when he knocked out Shepard during the beam run. He never actually left, because he was there all the time waiting for Shepard.

I guess you already talked about that, but i missed the last two-three months of speculations so... thoughts?

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by RavenEyry on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:08 pm

A lot of people think the real intelligence if it still exists is in harbinger, assuming dream on the citadel of course.
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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:23 pm

I actually bounce between that and them being two seperate entities, though I'm starting to lean that way more often.
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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by hermiona52 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:41 pm

I like that idea a lot, but I have one problem. Why Sovereign had to use Saren in first place? Why didn't Catalyst=Harbinger open Citadel relay himself?
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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by dorktainian on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:43 pm

could it be a hive mind - ie: all the reapers?

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:50 pm

hermiona52 wrote:I like that idea a lot, but I have one problem. Why Sovereign had to use Saren in first place? Why didn't Catalyst=Harbinger open Citadel relay himself?

That question stands with or without that theory. Maybe the Protheans really changed something, maybe the Reapers really needed the keepers to do stuff around the Citadel.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by hermiona52 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:24 pm

Allynna wrote:
hermiona52 wrote:I like that idea a lot, but I have one problem. Why Sovereign had to use Saren in first place? Why didn't Catalyst=Harbinger open Citadel relay himself?

That question stands with or without that theory. Maybe the Protheans really changed something, maybe the Reapers really needed the keepers to do stuff around the Citadel.
Well, if we take Catalityst literally then he is (it is?) an AI. AI is bound by its program so maybe he really couldn't control all of the Citadel. Of course it would meant that he limited himself because he made the Citadel.
Honestly, if IT isn't true, than this could be possible - Catalityst has bigger logic flaws than this.
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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:53 pm

If the Catalyst is just an AI, just doing what it was created to do... I can understand the Crucible. The Leviathans create the Catalyst to preserve life. But what is life for an AI? A machine would never understand that our DNA, our life is nothing without our soul. So when things are out of control and the leviathans are hunted by the reapers and forced to hide they don't have other choice but to create something that can change the intelligence. To change its purpose or to destroy/delete it. That is the Crucible. So maybe they created the plans and waited patiently multiple cycles to be build by other races.

Maybe that's why when we dock the Crucible, the Catalyst uses his magic elevator to bring Shepard to him/it and says that the Crucible changed it and someone have to "push the button". I don't understand why the three options are on the Citadel and not the Crucible, though...

Something like that... i would like... maybe. If that is the original idea about the ending, it is so poorly executed. The ending can be explained literal, it can be explained with IT and other theories. This makes me sad, it shows that BioWare don't care about their fans being happy with the ending, they care only about money, DLCs and people talking about them no matter good or bad things.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by hermiona52 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:24 pm

Allynna wrote:Something like that... i would like... maybe. If that is the original idea about the ending, it is so poorly executed. The ending can be explained literal, it can be explained with IT and other theories. This makes me sad, it shows that BioWare don't care about their fans being happy with the ending, they care only about money, DLCs and people talking about them no matter good or bad things.
Exactly, literal interpretation is possible but it is so much worse than IT in so many levels. It has so many flaws, so many plotholes. And the worst part is that almost every part of ME3 is brilliant and only Earth priority (lack of war assets) and this conversation with Catalityst are horrible. I just don't understand how BW could do it. They knew that ending was most important thing.
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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:49 pm

IT > all. This can be the best, mind blowing, epic twist ever. I hope that BioWare will do it someday. Its not too late.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:58 pm

My Harbinger = Catalyst speculation:

- Leviathans enthralled organics of the galaxy as slave races
- Organics started to build synthetics (which Leviathans wouldn't be able to control) to rebel
- Leviathans built AI that could control synthetics
- AI was based on/uploaded from Leviathan psychology, so just like the Leviathans, it wanted to control everything
- AI betrayed Leviathans because it wanted to harness their genetic ability to control organics
- AI built a hybrid construct that could control both synthetics and organics, giving birth to the first Reaper, the one we know as Harbinger
- AI takes control of shiny new death machine

Ergo, AI = Harbinger



EDIT: What's up with that weird white edge on top? It's not supposed to be there. Uncertain Must be the auto-resize, or something.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Terramine on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:05 pm

If we can trust him at all... he is the collective intelligence of all Reapers like dork said except that isn't a hive mind. Now I don't find this hard to believe, it's not something they need to lie about, it's entirely possible it's the truth.

Which would make things way more interesting because it could mean Shepard is being indoctrinated by ALL REAPERS AT THE SAME TIME >.>

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Maximus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:14 pm

Who said that the AI created by Leviathans is The Catalyst? This doesn't have to be the same, you see. In the original ME 3 plot, which was changed after it leaked, The Catalyst was Javik. Not an AI, not even a Reaper. Javik was a key to war with the Reapers, and at some point, Cerberus captured him. Can't remember what was after that, but i suppose that you had to rescue him.

Anyways, I think, that The Catalyst is actually Shepard. In this cycle at least. In the Prothean cycle it was Javik. Why? Coz they're Shepards of the galaxy, they are the best of best and best of their species which makes them perfect candidates to create Reaper's consciousness. After each harvest, there is always new Sovereign-class Reaper, except there was none after Prothean cycle. They were missing crucial component, The Catalyst obviously.
"Each a Nation" and these "Nations" form Reaper's brain - only organic piece in their construction. But each Nation needs a Leader, a Shepard.

AI created by Leviathans could be Harbinger, but that little, smart probe called "Glyph" is veeery suspicious...

That's just IMO >,<

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:16 pm

@CM:

I think this isn't so much about who or what is the true 'catalyst', as it is about Harbinger = the Reaper AI.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Maximus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:19 pm

Harbinger leads the Reapers, but i doubt that He's got full control over them. Some Reapers tried to kill Sheaprd. Either they're so stupid or they disagree with Harby, who knows?

But if it's true, then Harby cannot be the Reaper AI. Reaper AI would have full control over Reapers...


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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Fur28 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:31 pm

CorranusMaximus wrote:Harbinger leads the Reapers, but i doubt that He's got full control over them. Some Reapers tried to kill Sheaprd. Either they're so stupid or they disagree with Harby, who knows?

But if it's true, then Harby cannot be the Reaper AI. Reaper AI would have full control over Reapers...

ok then if Intelligence = Catalyst
Would the Intelligence have access to Harby´s Data?
Or do Reapers "gossip"? like rannoch´s reaper "Harbinger speaks of you"

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Andromidius on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:36 pm

The only reason 'The Catalyst' isn't Harbinger is if its the ghost of Sovereign.

There's no way its a seperate entity, and there's no way its been on the Citadel for millions of years undetected and unnoticed.
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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Maximus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:38 pm

Fur28 wrote:
CorranusMaximus wrote:Harbinger leads the Reapers, but i doubt that He's got full control over them. Some Reapers tried to kill Sheaprd. Either they're so stupid or they disagree with Harby, who knows?

But if it's true, then Harby cannot be the Reaper AI. Reaper AI would have full control over Reapers...

ok then if Intelligence = Catalyst
Would the Intelligence have access to Harby´s Data?
Or do Reapers "gossip"? like rannoch´s reaper "Harbinger speaks of you"

I think that if that AI is real, and still Controls the Reapers then Reapers are just pawns, tools for that mysterious AI. It controls them, has access to their "minds", knows everything about their actions, but there is one question...

Is it still in control? Maybe Reapers somehow "freed" from that AI, and that very AI still serves it's purpose but in a very different way. Glyph Theory fits here! :P

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:42 pm

Who would detect it? Nobody can detect it in time, the first were the Protheans, or at least the first that actually did something to the keepers...

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:48 pm

CorranusMaximus wrote:But if it's true, then Harby cannot be the Reaper AI. Reaper AI would have full control over Reapers...


Of course not.

Just because Harbinger might be the AI we talk to in the ending, does not mean any of his claims about controlling the Reapers or whatever else have to be true.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Maximus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:51 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
CorranusMaximus wrote:But if it's true, then Harby cannot be the Reaper AI. Reaper AI would have full control over Reapers...


Of course not.

Just because Harbinger might be the AI we talk to in the ending, does not mean any of his claims about controlling the Reapers or whatever else have to be true.

I do not believe that kid, whatever he is. He could be The Catalyst, Harby, Reaper AI, Reaper's Hive-Mind, who the hell knows? I don't care about what he says, it's all lies and utter bullshit...

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:58 pm

I don't think that anything controls the reapers. They cant be puppets and individuals the same time.. at least that is my opinion. And why not lie to Shepard about controling the reapers. After all if we find out that he is Harby... lets say that the conversation would be much different.

And acording to the theory that part of the game is not real, so it makes more sence to me that Harbinger is "talking" to Shepard, trying to indoctrinate her/him.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:34 am

I don't think anyone here actually believes the Reapers are controlled by one all-ruling overlord.

Although there have been speculations that Harbinger could have used the power of indoctrination to control all the Reapers, and that we could potentially defeat all the Reapers by taking out Harbinger.

The difference being that indoctrinated entities always think that they are in control themselves, and not under someone's spell. So that would explain Sovereign, etcetera.

But that would make the Reapers have the rather cheap 'take out the droid control ship' weakness.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:39 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Although there have been speculations that Harbinger could have used the power of indoctrination to control all the Reapers, and that we could potentially defeat all the Reapers by taking out Harbinger.

I was thinking about that even before ME3.

CorranusMaximus wrote: In the original ME 3 plot, which was changed after it leaked, The Catalyst was Javik. Not an AI, not even a Reaper. Javik was a key to war with the Reapers, and at some point, Cerberus captured him. Can't remember what was after that, but i suppose that you had to rescue him.

I thought the only leak was about the reapers fighting dark energy and they needed the human reaper to end that once and for all?

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Humakt on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:24 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

The difference being that indoctrinated entities always think that they are in control themselves, and not under someone's spell.

Grayson knew he was being indoctrinated. Though at times he acted like he were still in control.

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