The Catalyst = Harbinger?

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Terramine on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:56 pm

Andromidius wrote:The only reason 'The Catalyst' isn't Harbinger is if its the ghost of Sovereign.

There's no way its a seperate entity, and there's no way its been on the Citadel for millions of years undetected and unnoticed.
OR it's all Reapers, of all things I disagree with Hellish and anyone else claiming ME3 is ALL a dream, on... I kind of believe that Shepard has an indoctrination immunity because he/her has an ability similar to indoctrination himself/herself. Shepard is an anomaly, what does that mean? Why can Shepard be so impossibly successful at being diplomatic?

So to me it seems like Shepard's charm/intimidation is an evolved ability like Indoctrination, Leviathan enthrallment, Rachni hive mind, etc. Relevance? Well then it's possible that all the Reapers on Earth, if not all Reapers in the Galaxy... are ALL trying to indoctrinate Shepard at the SAME time. Resulting in this "catalyst" whom is the collective intelligence of all Reapers. If I am right and Shepard does have such an ability and resistance, it's possible the Reapers need to give it the best they can.

So I'm kind of leaning towards collective intelligence, not a separate entity.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Maximus on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:33 pm

Allynna wrote:I thought the only leak was about the reapers fighting dark energy and they needed the human reaper to end that once and for all?

Nope, in Mark III there was a link to a whole leaked scenario.
There was Trial on Earth, Shepard fought Rannoch Reaper in Hammerhead, then on foot. There was a choice on Thessia, where you could decide which squadmate you want to save and which sacrifice, after Kai Lame detonated the charges in the Temple of Athame.
Cool stuff, someone should post that link again...

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:40 pm

IronicParticle wrote:I kind of believe that Shepard has an indoctrination immunity because he/her has an ability similar to indoctrination himself/herself. Shepard is an anomaly, what does that mean? Why can Shepard be so impossibly successful at being diplomatic?

What makes Shepard that special... He/She is still a human. Leviathan had no problem to hold Shepard prisoned, the only reason to break free was because he/she convinced him to let her go. And indoctrination is stronger... Shepard not being indoctrinated is the biggest plot hole ever...

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Terramine on Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:42 pm

Allynna wrote:
IronicParticle wrote:I kind of believe that Shepard has an indoctrination immunity because he/her has an ability similar to indoctrination himself/herself. Shepard is an anomaly, what does that mean? Why can Shepard be so impossibly successful at being diplomatic?

What makes Shepard that special... He/She is still a human. Leviathan had no problem to hold Shepard prisoned, the only reason to break free was because he/she convinced him to let her go. And indoctrination is stronger... Shepard not being indoctrinated is the biggest plot hole ever...
Actually we can't assume there was no problems, Shepard mentally struggled from what I saw forcing a freaking Leviathan right next to him to use more force, because apparently Shepard forced it out of his mind shortly a couple of times. There was even blood coming from his/her nose which hadn't been seen with any other person being enthralled, also it's possible that 1 Leviathan had help from his Leviathan friends with taking control, meaning Shepard fought off 3 Leviathans at the same time mentally?

Shepard is so persuasive that he apparently persuades said Leviathan/s controlling him to let him go. What has Shepard done during this discussion to convince the Leviathan that what he is doing is more than a product of chance? Something during THIS encounter made it clear to the Leviathan that Shepard is an Anomaly, and all Shepard is doing... is talking.

"Shepard is just human"... Just? Humans are still Evolving. Anyone else find it curious that when Organics evolve on their own, they get abilities like Leviathan enthrallment or Rachni hive mind? 2 Organics evolutionary lines, that just HAPPEN to be so similar? That's like how Saiyans from Dragonball look exactly like Humans, the odds of which are beyond amazing, and more likely that Javik's people were right to some extent about Evolution.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:39 pm

Then how do you explain the dreams, the oily shadows, the breath scene, etc...? :) I am not saying that Shepard is indoctrinated, but everything she have been through is starting to take effect.


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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Maximus on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:55 pm

Allynna wrote:Then how do you explain the dreams, the oily shadows, the breath scene, etc...? :) I am not saying that Shepard is indoctrinated, but everything she have been through is starting to take effect.

Shepard isn't immune to Indoctrination. He is more...resilient due to his remarkably strong will, but He can be Indoctrinated just like every other organic. Though Torian and Rachni queen seem to be immune to Indoctrination. I wonder why..
They're more Evolved than most organics? That's what makes them immune?
Shepard is an anomaly, said to be the next step in Human evolution. He's not immune to mind-control but He is able to resist it to a greater degree than most organics. Wait a sec...

Shepard has the ability to mind-control/Indoctrinate! 0,o
After Leviathan you get that bonus power - "Dominate", which allows you to influence organic's mind and turn them to your side. It's not a Tech power, and it MIGHT be Biotic power, but I don't know for sure. Doesn't look like Biotic power, but Shepard has biotics no matter which class you choose for him so I can only assume if Dominate is biotic power or not. I'm more to the idea of Dominate being Shepard exclusive, non-biotic power. I'm not considering Asari here, though, only Humans and they're...capabilities, because Shepard apparently is Human! DOH! ;>

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:05 pm

If Shepard was immune to indoctrination i cant see the point Harbinger would be interested in her. Indoctrinated Shepard is a nice bonus for the Reapers. Like Saren and TIM - they almost destroyed the cycle.

The Thorian and the Rachni queen.. they can mind control other organics, i guess they are more evolved. Do we know something about indoctrinated leviathan? Maybe they are immune too.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Maximus on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:19 pm

It might be possible that every organic species at some point in their evolution, develops the ability to influence other organic's minds. They themselves become immune to it, coz you just can't Indoctrinate/Enslave a superior being. Leviathans consider themselves Gods, superior race, apex of evolution.
If Torian and Rachni Queen are immune, then I think it's safe to assume, that Leviathans are immune too! They're MUCH older than Torian and Rachni and thus - more powerful in "Mind Magic".
Harbinger was created from Leviathans, He's got their powers which evolved over time. Leviathans cannot maintain they're control forever. If they stop influencing they're victim, then that victim is free. Reaper's Indoctrination is much more powerful. Once indoctrinated, always indoctrinated. Even Shiala, which is said to break from indoctrination still hear Reaper's words in her mind. She's not free, never will be, but she resists thanks to that ermm... mind-hive connection or something she has with other colonists on Feros.

Harbinger would be still interested in Indoctrinating Shepard even if Shepard was immune to it. Harby's got a complex of a God, every Reaper has it. They're pinnacle of evolution, etc, etc and for them, Shepard is just another slave. More resistant but still. He's apparent immunity only makes him more interesting and it would bolster Harby's resolve to Indoctrinate Shepard.
"YOU CANNOT RESIST!", "STRUGGLE IF YOU WISH! YOU'RE MIND WILL BE MINE!"
;>

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:21 pm

Allynna wrote:If Shepard was immune to indoctrination i cant see the point Harbinger would be interested in her. Indoctrinated Shepard is a nice bonus for the Reapers. Like Saren and TIM - they almost destroyed the cycle.

The Thorian and the Rachni queen.. they can mind control other organics, i guess they are more evolved. Do we know something about indoctrinated leviathan? Maybe they are immune too.

The Thorian (and the thralls it left behind) and the Rachni share a distinct difference compared to other species, both have a hive mind of sorts. It is likely this which makes them more resilient, but we know they are not completely immune as evidenced by the Rachni war. They are merely able to ignore the Reapers whispers as the Rachni queen mentions hearing the Reapers but the voices having no sway over her.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:24 pm

I thought the rachni were controlled by the leviathans during the rachni wars? At least there are theories about that in Leviathan DLC.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Raistlin Majere on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:28 pm

Allynna wrote:I thought the rachni were controlled by the leviathans during the rachni wars? At least there are theories about that in Leviathan DLC.

Yeah theories, but if you try to use the Rachni lead during the attempt to narrow down the search area you turn up no connections.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Maximus on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:34 pm

Allynna wrote:I thought the rachni were controlled by the leviathans during the rachni wars? At least there are theories about that in Leviathan DLC.

RACHNI were enthralled/indoctrinated, not Rachni Queen. Dunno if Reapers or Leviathans controlled them...
Regular Rachni are just slaves to their Queen, like Bees or Ants. They're bugs too, you know. Rachni Queen is immune to indoctrination, but her slaves aren't.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Allynna on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:39 pm

CorranusMaximus wrote:
Allynna wrote:I thought the rachni were controlled by the leviathans during the rachni wars? At least there are theories about that in Leviathan DLC.

RACHNI were enthralled/indoctrinated, not Rachni Queen. Dunno if Reapers or Leviathans controlled them...
Regular Rachni are just slaves to their Queen, like Bees or Ants. They're bugs too, you know. Rachni Queen is immune to indoctrination, but her slaves aren't.

I am talking about the rachni during the Rachni wars. The theory was that Leviathans were preparing them for the Reapers. I know that only the offspring can be indoctrinated :)

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Terramine on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:22 pm

They may not be entirely immune. I just think that you would have a hard battle for control because they effect you too unlike someone without such abilities. I think this is why they've put more effort into breaking Shepard's resolve and even "attacking" when he/she is unconscious. Because when unconscious your subconscious takes majority control and thus you aren't anywhere near full mental capability.

Shepard's will has had it's ass kicked by all the dead friends and loved ones, and many many others. That weakens resolve which is used to resist and replaces it with doubt, sorrow, regret, guilt, etc... then they get the stage set for Shepard and show him how the odds stack against him unbelievably so as he progresses forward to the stage. Then they knock him unconscious, possibly bleeding making him more and more incoherent in his thinking.

Then at least ALL Reapers around earth, if not all Reapers in the galaxy, attempt to indoctrinate Shepard ALL at the SAME time in an attempt to succeed in such a difficult task. Then when Shepard is so weak in his resolve, so weak in his intellect, so weak in control over his brain... Shepard's mind constructs a place in reaction, said place is heavily manipulated by the Reapers themselves and the Reapers manifest themselves as a single entity(Catalyst) in a combined effort to succeed.

Bioware said the ending is meant to have a battle of the minds, if Indoctrination is intended which I am certain of... then everything we see is not the actual ending, it's the stage set for the epitome of mind boss battles..... A mind battle with ALL REAPERS!

You have four options:
Synthesis: You Reapers are right.
Control: I was wrong.
Refuse: Fuck you!
Destroy: I am right, I have always been right about this and nothing has ever changed that, just like nothing has ever changed you being wrong!

I still believe Shepard can be indoctrinated, I just think there is something to Shepard being an Anomaly and this has resulted in the most badass boss fight ever, which magnifies the awesomeness of what will happen afterwards when Shepard wakes up to kick the Reaper's ass.

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:38 am

IronicParticle wrote:They may not be entirely immune. I just think that you would have a hard battle for control because they effect you too unlike someone without such abilities. I think this is why they've put more effort into breaking Shepard's resolve and even "attacking" when he/she is unconscious. Because when unconscious your subconscious takes majority control and thus you aren't anywhere near full mental capability.

Shepard's will has had it's ass kicked by all the dead friends and loved ones, and many many others. That weakens resolve which is used to resist and replaces it with doubt, sorrow, regret, guilt, etc... then they get the stage set for Shepard and show him how the odds stack against him unbelievably so as he progresses forward to the stage. Then they knock him unconscious, possibly bleeding making him more and more incoherent in his thinking.

Then at least ALL Reapers around earth, if not all Reapers in the galaxy, attempt to indoctrinate Shepard ALL at the SAME time in an attempt to succeed in such a difficult task. Then when Shepard is so weak in his resolve, so weak in his intellect, so weak in control over his brain... Shepard's mind constructs a place in reaction, said place is heavily manipulated by the Reapers themselves and the Reapers manifest themselves as a single entity(Catalyst) in a combined effort to succeed.

Bioware said the ending is meant to have a battle of the minds, if Indoctrination is intended which I am certain of... then everything we see is not the actual ending, it's the stage set for the epitome of mind boss battles..... A mind battle with ALL REAPERS!

You have four options:
Synthesis: You Reapers are right.
Control: I was wrong.
Refuse: Fuck you!
Destroy: I am right, I have always been right about this and nothing has ever changed that, just like nothing has ever changed you being wrong!

I still believe Shepard can be indoctrinated, I just think there is something to Shepard being an Anomaly and this has resulted in the most badass boss fight ever, which magnifies the awesomeness of what will happen afterwards when Shepard wakes up to kick the Reaper's ass.

I couldn't have said this better myself. Nothing in this thread is new to me, and it is in fact part of my pet theory (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/15052516/1)

It all comes together in my thoughts, so I... hope I'm right.

The one thing that I didn't match up was 'why the Catalyst, presented this way'? You explained it well - its all of the Reapers at once, manipulating Shepard to reach Earth, to their Indoctrination-beam, and their Indoctrination-aplifier. :O

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by dorktainian on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:17 pm

does anyone remember the facehugger scene in 'prometheous'? to evolve, the facehugger / gigantic squid layed an egg inside the engineer so their dnas would evolve into a new creature.

what if sovereign (while docked with the presidium tower) ejected its reaper form into the presidium? we wouldnt know what it looked like. the outer shell then just died - made us think we won - while really sovereign was in the citadel all along?

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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by Charlie Sheen on Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:34 am

CorranusMaximus wrote:Who said that the AI created by Leviathans is The Catalyst? This doesn't have to be the same, you see. In the original ME 3 plot, which was changed after it leaked, The Catalyst was Javik. Not an AI, not even a Reaper. Javik was a key to war with the Reapers, and at some point, Cerberus captured him. Can't remember what was after that, but i suppose that you had to rescue him.

Anyways, I think, that The Catalyst is actually Shepard. In this cycle at least. In the Prothean cycle it was Javik. Why? Coz they're Shepards of the galaxy, they are the best of best and best of their species which makes them perfect candidates to create Reaper's consciousness. After each harvest, there is always new Sovereign-class Reaper, except there was none after Prothean cycle. They were missing crucial component, The Catalyst obviously.
"Each a Nation" and these "Nations" form Reaper's brain - only organic piece in their construction. But each Nation needs a Leader, a Shepard.

AI created by Leviathans could be Harbinger, but that little, smart probe called "Glyph" is veeery suspicious...

That's just IMO >,<
Nice.

So Shepard would be the brain of the Human Reaper. That's why the Reapers want Shepard.

“Preserve Shepard's body if possible.”

“Shepard, submit now.”
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Re: The Catalyst = Harbinger?

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:50 pm

Drewton wrote:
CorranusMaximus wrote:Who said that the AI created by Leviathans is The Catalyst? This doesn't have to be the same, you see. In the original ME 3 plot, which was changed after it leaked, The Catalyst was Javik. Not an AI, not even a Reaper. Javik was a key to war with the Reapers, and at some point, Cerberus captured him. Can't remember what was after that, but i suppose that you had to rescue him.

Anyways, I think, that The Catalyst is actually Shepard. In this cycle at least. In the Prothean cycle it was Javik. Why? Coz they're Shepards of the galaxy, they are the best of best and best of their species which makes them perfect candidates to create Reaper's consciousness. After each harvest, there is always new Sovereign-class Reaper, except there was none after Prothean cycle. They were missing crucial component, The Catalyst obviously.
"Each a Nation" and these "Nations" form Reaper's brain - only organic piece in their construction. But each Nation needs a Leader, a Shepard.

AI created by Leviathans could be Harbinger, but that little, smart probe called "Glyph" is veeery suspicious...

That's just IMO >,<
Nice.

So Shepard would be the brain of the Human Reaper. That's why the Reapers want Shepard.

“Preserve Shepard's body if possible.”

“Shepard, submit now.”

Yes, this is a very popular sub-theory of IT.

I also believe that to be the case.

I think in synthesis, everyone is harvested and Shepard becomes the ruling mind of the new human Reaper.

A Prothean Reaper was never made, because they couldn't get Javik.

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