(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:43 pm

Green Cloud.

...fart joke indeed.

Better a fart joke than canonizing Synthesis.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rankincountry on Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:32 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:Green Cloud.

...fart joke indeed.

Better a fart joke than canonizing Synthesis.

[Peurile]We always assume that noise the reapers make is some sort of horn. I reckon too much DNA slush starts repeating on you.[/Peurile]

Could be Dragon Age MP related, or it could be to do with Shadow Realms as well. There's also the collaboration between Failbetter Games (Fallen London/Sunless Sea) and BW that has been mooted.

If by canonizing synthesis, you mean loading it in to a very large cannon and firing it into a nearby star to ensure it is killed with fire, then I'm up for that.


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:35 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Hey guys, been away for a while. Spent nine days in Rome, it was fucking awesome.

I see I've missed some solid debating while I was gone! Nice.

There's some things I'd like to reply to, will do so later.
Just so you know I said I wasn't going to reply to people's responses to me with those posts. Which I kinda violated right away, but it was just real quick to elaborate lol

I'm still reading these though like I also said.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Maximus on Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:39 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:*cut dis shit outta here*
Better a fart joke than canonizing Synthesis.

BEHOLD! THE FUTURE OF MASS EFFECT!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:45 pm

Green Cloud.

lol.

:)

EDIT: Honestly it really sounds like a codename for DAI, or something DAI related, but I really have no idea.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by spotlessvoid on Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:52 am

it's their new eco-friendly digital data storage syst- OH MY GOD IT'S A REAPER
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:19 am

Well, Mass Effect 3's endings have shown themselves again. In class today we were learning about the types of synthesis that occur in cells, like protein synthesis, and of course for this lesson my teacher wears a green shirt. Tongue
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:34 am

Maximus wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:*cut dis shit outta here*
Better a fart joke than canonizing Synthesis.

BEHOLD! THE FUTURE OF MASS EFFECT!

With the right color choices you can make the N7 Destroyer look a lot like Tank's armor from that show. Coincidence? Not likely.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:26 am

Hanako Ikezawa wrote:Well, Mass Effect 3's endings have shown themselves again. In class today we were learning about the types of synthesis that occur in cells, like protein synthesis, and of course for this lesson my teacher wears a green shirt.  Tongue
Went back to playing God of War because real life kicked me in the quad and I needed the cathartic outlet of Kratos and his unrelenting, unyielding bloodthirsty vengeance against all who wrong him or happen to be really huge.  Tangled with the furies.  Oily shadows.  Oily shadows everywhere!

No, seriously, the game with the furies was just wall to wall oily shadows.  For anyone not well versed in Greek mythology, the furies were an ancient entity that punished people (or gods, or titans, or anything else) with madness.  Often vivid hallucinations, all sorts of other crazyness.  Needless to say, they're the closest mythology comes to indoctrination.  And oily shadows everywhere.  I pondered in chat whether there might be some symbolism with an ancient malevolent force trying to drive people mad and that kind of "oily shadow" thing.  Byne mentioned that the Sha in World of Warcraft are along similar lines and also come complete with oily shadow manifestations.  Interesting.  This means it's more than just a one-off line from the rachni queen, it's a common symbolism for this horrible sort of thing.  Did not know that.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  How people can think the endings are legit is simply beyond me.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:32 am

SwobyJ wrote:Green Cloud.

lol.

:)

EDIT: Honestly it really sounds like a codename for DAI, or something DAI related, but I really have no idea.

Green = Synthesis?
Cloud = server?

They really do like their colour green don't they?


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:59 am

Rifneno wrote:
Hanako Ikezawa wrote:Well, Mass Effect 3's endings have shown themselves again. In class today we were learning about the types of synthesis that occur in cells, like protein synthesis, and of course for this lesson my teacher wears a green shirt.  Tongue
Went back to playing God of War because real life kicked me in the quad and I needed the cathartic outlet of Kratos and his unrelenting, unyielding bloodthirsty vengeance against all who wrong him or happen to be really huge.  Tangled with the furies.  Oily shadows.  Oily shadows everywhere!

No, seriously, the game with the furies was just wall to wall oily shadows.  For anyone not well versed in Greek mythology, the furies were an ancient entity that punished people (or gods, or titans, or anything else) with madness.  Often vivid hallucinations, all sorts of other crazyness.  Needless to say, they're the closest mythology comes to indoctrination.  And oily shadows everywhere.  I pondered in chat whether there might be some symbolism with an ancient malevolent force trying to drive people mad and that kind of "oily shadow" thing.  Byne mentioned that the Sha in World of Warcraft are along similar lines and also come complete with oily shadow manifestations.  Interesting.  This means it's more than just a one-off line from the rachni queen, it's a common symbolism for this horrible sort of thing.  Did not know that.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  How people can think the endings are legit is simply beyond me.

Good find.

And another example of how relatively well-versed BW is in mythology, religion, and similar classical subjects. This is just another on a long list of subtle references in ME.

Question is whether it means anything deeper, or is just a superficial nomenclature thing.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Guest on Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:38 pm

Did this last night... took rather too long, and didn't sleep until past 3am, but anyway... Oh HI green!



Relevant scenes:
-12:38
-18:17
-40:00


THE REVOLUTION CYCLE CANNOT BE STOPPED!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Maximus on Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:57 pm

SwobyJ wrote:Did this last night... took rather too long, and didn't sleep until past 3am, but anyway... Oh HI green!



Relevant scenes:
-12:38
-18:17
-40:00


THE REVOLUTION CYCLE CANNOT BE STOPPED!

In my D7 playthroughs one of these Assassin Droids (from 12:38) used to say: "SO BE IT!" at the end of conversation...I believe this is the result of being more aggressive towards them!
I find it entertaining every, damn time!  

Oh man, whole damn Flashpoint feels like kickin' Harbinger's ass right in the jewels...!
Or playin' Overlord DLC...
Either way, it is a good opportunity to unleash hatred and anger on Synthesis! ;>


Last edited by Maximus on Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:11 pm

>"I think this black shadowy/oily stuff is some common symbolism for an ancient and immortal malevolence trying to worm its way into your mind."
>"I saw green!"

I miss when this thread was good.  *sigh*

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:14 pm

Rifneno wrote:>"I think this black shadowy/oily stuff is some common symbolism for an ancient and immortal malevolence trying to worm its way into your mind."
>"I saw green!"

I miss when this thread was good.  *sigh*

It's like Sten in his cage, playing I Spy with himself to pass the time.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Guest on Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:02 pm

I could have written several paragraphs of a comparison between this and Overlord, Synthesis, Borg material, etc.

I just didn't feel like it.

EDIT: Yep Maximus, yes it does. :D

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by OneWithTheAssassins on Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:39 am

Rifneno wrote:>"I think this black shadowy/oily stuff is some common symbolism for an ancient and immortal malevolence trying to worm its way into your mind."
>"I saw green!"

I miss when this thread was good.  *sigh*
It has become a shadow of it's former self. But what are you going to do? *shrugs* We've pretty much covered every topic and exhausted every point of detail in the damn game. All we can do now is wait, and hope.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:53 pm

spotlessvoid wrote:Paragon isn't about saving everyone, it's about doing your best to, and circumstances not permitting, making those terrible decisions as to what must be done.

Sooooooooo much this.

In Anderson's words: "A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men."

Having to make a sacrifice because circumstances permit you no other viable option isn't the same thing as a ruthless renegade action.

SwobyJ wrote:Yeah I dunno what spot was saying there. Destroy is the most direct sacrifice for Shepard to take. The ruthless calculus of war, at its most clear.

I agree that destroy is a sacrifice, but I strongly disagree with the bolded. For some renegade Shepards it is a ruthless sacrifice ("screw the synthetics, to hell with all of you"), but for paragon Shepards  it's a realization that it's a heartbreaking necessity (even in the literal interpretation!),   a realization that synthesis will change the nature of every living being, in essence killing them, because they will no longer be what they were (a recurring theme throughout the series; "If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them."), a realization that control will allow the Reapers to exist with uncertain outcome, (especially knowing that wanting to control anything in the MEU has always led to disastrous outcomes), a realization that any other choice than destroy might constitute a failure of the mission and that far more people will die as a result.

In short, the Anderson quote above.

Or take this actual paragon line:

Raistlin Majere wrote:Full Arrival Harbinger paragon answer: "Maybe you are right, maybe we cant win. But we will fight you regardless, just like we did Sovereign, just like I am doing now. However 'insignificant' we might be, we will fight, we will sacrifice and we will find a way. That's what humans do."

--------------------------------

So, in conclusion; destroy can be both a paragon and a renegade choice. One just as much as the other. That's the fucking beauty of it. It is literally the right choice for every Shepard, whether he's paragon, renegade, or anything in between.

spotlessvoid wrote:Heretic Geth argument is "by any means necessary"
Destroy Reaper argument is "by the only available means"

While I agree, the decision to rewrite the heretics can also be justified as the more paragon choice in the sense that rewriting them would be worse than killing them from an idealistic perspective. Enslavement or brainwashing can be seen fates worse than death, the same recurring theme I mentioned above. ("Wow, great choices. Genocide or Brainwashing. If you screwed with my head, made me nod and smile at everything, I'd rather you blew my head off. Let me die as me.")

spotlessvoid wrote:EDI is irrelevant..She's a single sapient life. Against the backdrop of billions her life has no relevant importance. If the choice is billions dead vs one dead it's morally unjustifiable to not act. You don't have the right to kill EDI, you have a duty to.

That really makes it a question of delaying the extinction of the Geth at the cost of all sapient life in the galaxy. Again, it's morally unjustifiable to fail to act.

Also, Shepard has no reason to believe the next cycle will succeed We could be talking trillions dead before a cycle  finds a solution. Just so you can let the Geth fight to the death? That takes a special kind of cowardice.

My sentiments exactly.

Terramine wrote:So uh, if the alleged reasons the Reapers are doing this whole cycle... are this whole rebellious AI thing. And you destroy the AIs, you prove the Reapers correct. Do you not? I could've sworn, back on rannoch the whole point was Shepard... was arguing with this thing. And it said, that the current situation on rannoch supports the Reaper's claims. But we technically, just proved them wrong didn't we?

They're only saying that, because in a debate they can respond to your refutation with another refutation. And that's exactly what Destroy is, but it's the finishing move in the debate because Shepard caves in and agrees with them.

At least that's how I see it, if someone could explain this otherwise, that'd be helpful.

You don't cave in and agree with the Reapers, on the absolute contrary, it's a rejection of the catalyst's claims. You destroy the Reapers and end the cycle, not because you believe synthetics and organics can't co-exist peacefully, but because you believe they can. You do it, knowing full well that the chaos will come back, that organics will build machines that will surpass them, that conflict will arise, but unlike the catalyst you believe that synthetics and organics will be able to work out their differences, unlike the catalyst you believe that  there is a way for us to co-exist peacefully, that the cycles aren't needed to keep us in check, that there will always be conflict in the universe, and that learning to work towards peace and mutual understanding is pretty much the eternal imperative of life.

Terramine wrote:Destroy is like that, because it's like "Maybe AIs do inherently rebel. But we will solve it on our own". From a paragon perspective.

Exactly.

spotlessvoid wrote:But no, Shepard doesn't agree with the Reapers. Paragon Shepard doesn't want to kill the Geth, it's just unavoidable to keep the galaxy from being wiped out. The Reapers have back the galaxy into a corner, and as it's avatar it's Shepard's job to save it. He didn't choose this, the Reapers forced it on him. If there was a destroy Geth live option Paragon Shepard would take it. But there isn't.

spotlessvoid wrote:Organics can get along with synthetics. The Reapers are the ones who back the galaxy into a corner where there is no alternative way to survive. The only thing it proves is the Reapers can't get along with anyone.

QFT

SwobyJ wrote:
"What could possibly be more important than Zaeed Massani not being bested by some fucking kids' game?" - Everyone is so angry at BW, so angry at the Crucible, meanwhile Shepard prob lies dying in a battlefield.

The way I see it, this is just a funny 4th wall breaking reference  to the ending outrage over the confrontation (colour picking game) with the star child.

SwobyJ wrote:"Its obviously rigged somehow." - No, its just Shepard, the only one with the stuff (somehow) to pick Destroy against the Reapers so readily.
"But I just... never mind."

I always interpreted this (and still do) as a reference to people (like IT) saying that the ending is a trick/fake, that the Reapers haven't been destroyed, and that the game isn't over, and literalists going 'huh? I saw them getting blasted to pieces! The game told me I won!'.

SwobyJ wrote:RENEGADE: Move on. You conquered it. - "Zaeed, will another victory ever match the one you just experienced."
"You're right. Guess you've been around that block a few times."
"A few too many."
The endings are all the same. Or rather, no ending really changes your first decision (though I'd debate that; I did Destroy every time after Synthesis). But the point imo is that it doesn't matter that its a (mind) game, it doesn't matter about getting the very best prize, a lot of this doesn't matter in the end. Either you keep up the loop or you pick Destroy and move the fuck on. Anything else just keeps discussion going until the next game. Refuse is just rejecting the story that Bioware is presenting you with, because you hate the circumstances. But the game is there anyway, and only gives you these choices.

I always interpreted this as either:

1. Sarcasm; Bioware making fun of themselves, knowing full well that their ending wasn't satisfying at all. (This is the more hopeful interpretation)

2. Sarcasm; Bioware truly believe they did everything they could to give people an epic victory and is telling people who keep asking for the real ending or a continuation to get the fuck over it and move the fuck on. (This is the less hopeful interpretation)

For the rest I more or less agree with your interpretations of the dialogue.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:26 pm

spotlessvoid wrote:refuse: no ideals, no action

imo

I think it's actually a case of being too idealistic. In the sense that you believe a war can be won without sacrificing a single living being. It's almost like complete pacifism. But it's flawed because you don't realize that in refusing to sacrifice people, you sacrifice even more people. You think you refuse because you won't betray your ideals, but you betray your ideals anyway because you're killing billions more just to take a moral stand. In the end that's an incredibly selfish choice.

It's like Anakin Skywalker falling to the dark side. He wants to save someone from dying but in doing so ends up killing everyone he ever loved. You know what they say about the road to hell... it's paved with good intentions, just like control and synthesis. You won't sacrifice people, but you end up killing everyone.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by spotlessvoid on Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:40 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
spotlessvoid wrote:refuse: no ideals, no action

imo

I think it's actually a case of being too idealistic. In the sense that you believe a war can be won without sacrificing a single living being. It's almost like complete pacifism. But it's flawed because you don't realize that in refusing to sacrifice people, you sacrifice even more people. You think you refuse because you won't betray your ideals, but you betray your ideals anyway because you're killing billions more just to take a moral stand. In the end that's an incredibly selfish choice.

It's like Anakin Skywalker falling to the dark side. He wants to save someone from dying but in doing so ends up killing everyone he ever loved. You know what they say about the road to hell... it's paved with good intentions, just like control and synthesis. You won't sacrifice people, but you end up killing everyone.

What you're saying is absolutely true, but I don't see ideals having the exact same meaning as idealistic. The ultimate ideal is universal compassion and I see it as refusing to save anyone because of some selfish desire to hold on to a naive world view is lacking all compassion, hence my phrasing refuse as noo ideals.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:03 pm

Am I the only one who doesn't think destroy actually kills the geth regardless?  I know, most of us think that destroy doesn't actually do anything other than fend off indoctrination, but I mean by whatever standard we're talking about sacrifice here.  In-character Shepard I guess?  My first instinct with that was that the Reapers knew how I felt about the geth and were trying to dissuade me from that option.  The geth are almost as different from the Reapers as humans.  A weapon can't be made that's effective against every form of synthetic.  They're just too varied.

An example.  An old trick used by hackers and spies and that sort of thing with extremely sensitive data they may need to delete in an instant is to hook up a magnet to the drive so they can hit a switch and the drive will be destroyed by a powerful magnet instantly.  This only works for the older type of drives though, the new SSD ones are unaffected by magnets.  What works against one type of machine will not work for ALL of them.  And my example is just two different types of hard drives humans invented recently, we're talking about alien races building different machines at different levels of complexity with different materials for different purposes with vastly differently technology.  If a type of damage works on all of them, it's something primal that would also work on organics.  Like heat or electricity.  Even that isn't guaranteed to work, given the enormous diversity of the galaxy and life in general.

My Shepard doesn't believe destroy kills the geth any more than he believes that destroy will eventually end with synthetics wiping out all organic life everywhere forever as Starbieber claims it will.  Don't get me wrong, if it does, it's a necessary sacrifice and he would do it anyway.  But I don't believe Ondore the Reapers' lies.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by spotlessvoid on Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:11 pm

While the Geth are sacrificed in destroy, I don't believe Shepard is responsible forr it, for two reasons. One, the galaxy tasks Shepard with the job of "pushing the button" because they believe he'll get it done, he is the physical embodiment of galactic will in this case. Two, really it's not even the galaxy's decision, it's the Reaper's because they bear full responsibility for the situation and that only one course of action ends the harvest is their doing, not the galaxy's.

Since I don't believe a damn thing coming out of starchild/reaper's mouth and it's my belief that the Reapers are ultimately all about their own preservation, and that any scenario where they aren't destroyed only leads to a continuation of the harvest, I see destroy as the ONLY choice that doesn't lead to the annihilation of all advanced life in the galaxy. As such, Shepard isn't sacrificing the Geth, Mass Effect is their requiem, there is no scenario where they survive, Shepard bears no blame in their extinction. So yes, the Geth are sacrificed, but not by Shepard or by choosing destroy, but by the Reapers.

Again, this is under my assumption that anything but destroy leads to the continuation of the harvest.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by spotlessvoid on Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:23 pm

Rif, I don't believe anything the Reapers say so it's definitely not a given that the outcome of destroy is what is threatened.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by OneWithTheAssassins on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:44 pm

Just met someone online today who believes Mass Effect is an unoriginal, uninspired, un-innovative pile of garbage. Now I know all of those things are not true, but the moment this jackass watches footage of ME2, he's suddenly "interested."
Classic case of tasteless asshole/hipster hater.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:22 pm

To be honest, I found ME2 a lot more original than ME1. Not necessarily better.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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