(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:55 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:They released an end credits song for a game that no one knows anything about yet? o_0

How extremely premature.

Is that even legit?

The game (apparently) won't even be called Mass Effect "4".
Quote from the description: "Currently under consideration. We've been in talks with Sam Hullick. The game is taking longer than anticipated, however, so there's still a LOT that can change."

So it's more like, it's not officially the end credits yet. Bioware has to confirm. However the message of the song is notable "The lyrics are about people being forced to fight for the amusement of higher beings." And as you can hear in the song. There is talk of being pawns for a higher power, and doing things that people judge and doing the best you can.

To me it just sounds, like Shepard is suffering from indoctrination and has had to do regrettable things to end the battle against the Reapers.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by OneWithTheAssassins on Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:57 pm

Kinda bummed no one bothered to answer my very good question about Maya and what her ultimate goal was.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:17 pm

TBH, it's been too long since I played the clone part of the Citadel DLC...

It's a good question.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TurianRebel212 on Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:37 pm

OneWithTheAssassins wrote:Kinda bummed no one bothered to answer my very good question about Maya and what her ultimate goal was.


Money.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by OneWithTheAssassins on Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:58 pm

TurianRebel212 wrote:
OneWithTheAssassins wrote:Kinda bummed no one bothered to answer my very good question about Maya and what her ultimate goal was.


Money.
Oh of courses it's money! That explains EVERYTHING!
1. Leave Cerberus
2. Steal Clone Shepard
3. Teach Clone Shepard to hate OG Shepard and team
4. Gain OG Shepard's trust
5. Steal OG Shepard's records, ID, ship, and leave OG Shepard for dead with the help of washed up mercs
6. Have Clone Shepard take the place of OG Shepard
7. ???
8. PROFIT!

It makes SO much damn sense when you put it that way! Why couldn't I see it before? This answers ALL my questions concerning Maya and her plot hole ridden plan with that one worded answer!
Money!
Fucking genius!
/end sarcasm

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:16 am

OneWithTheAssassins wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:
OneWithTheAssassins wrote:Kinda bummed no one bothered to answer my very good question about Maya and what her ultimate goal was.


Money.
Oh of courses it's money! That explains EVERYTHING!
1. Leave Cerberus
2. Steal Clone Shepard
3. Teach Clone Shepard to hate OG Shepard and team
4. Gain OG Shepard's trust
5. Steal OG Shepard's records, ID, ship, and leave OG Shepard for dead with the help of washed up mercs
6. Have Clone Shepard take the place of OG Shepard
7. ???
8. PROFIT!

It makes SO much damn sense when you put it that way! Why couldn't I see it before? This answers ALL my questions concerning Maya and her plot hole ridden plan with that one worded answer!
Money!
Fucking genius!
/end sarcasm
The citadel DLC is a dream.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:04 am

I don't think it's wise to put to much thought into the Citadel DLC. Personally I prefer to see it for what it is , a fun, campy, fan-servicey spoof on the series and the sci-if genre.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:07 am

ViolentSound wrote:I don't think it's wise to put to much thought into the Citadel DLC. Personally I prefer to see it for what it is , a fun, campy, fan-servicey spoof on the series and the sci-if genre.  
It's too fan servicey though. Ok, I already had problems with people saying that about the EC but Bioware doesn't fucking do fan service to such an extent as the Citadel DLC especially. Maybe throw in a few homosexual couples during development. But here it was like, they did it intentionally to shit on all the fans who DO think they're all about fan service.

YOU CAN BANG JAVIK

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:10 am

I don't think they are all about that. I just think it's an option for those who want to have more interactions with the characters. I fell into the trap of enjoying it. It was jarring going into the DLC and then out of it, becuase it's so tonally diffrent. But still, I loved all the crew memebers, so I really enjoyed the journey. My one complaint is there was no Chackawas

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:58 am

Citadel DLC was half backed, you can feel it and see it with many examples that I don't have to get into since many of you have played it already many times over perhaps trying to look for I.T related clues.

Maya Brook's ultimate purpose had no pressing need to be fleshed out when they made the DLC as they started with the Foundations comics to flesh out the characters later on. Maybe they will fill that bit out sooner or later.

Again another thing that some in here take for granted is that everything is a "grand meticulous plan" from the start of ME IP. It is not. Countless writers of various games, not to mention the man himself Drew Karpyshyn, have stated they made new characters and plots as they went with it. Hudson has stated this in no uncertain terms that they wanted to build an epic new IP with epic span that they could build on for many years to come something like the fandom of Star Trek and Star wars that has lasted for many years and if possible even rival these established franchises but they hadn't flashed out the various details of the future games because they wanted to gauge fan reactions after ME1's launch.

Citadel was oozy cheesy fan service at best, people will see what they want to see in just about any aspect of the series. It's almost like how CW takes obvious game mechanic reuse or 3D engine programming quirks for example as some sign of I.T and run with it.

This brings me to another thing Casey Hudson mentioned, he stated Bioware cares a lot about fan feedback. Many will contend this as "yeah right..." but wait for a second what if he is actually telling the truth? He also stated they strive to make the outcomes unpredictable to keep the  intrigue factor as high as possible, keep things fresh. So they do follow the BSN boards, the fan uproars and compliments and definitely this forum and similar others. Companies have staff employed to do just this or can even have contracts with other PR agencies who's job is just to simply scour the net for trends. It's called big data analytics. A big business now in the information industry.

We know they considered I.T style game mechanics and possibly even a proper plot to depict it but chose not to as it didn't work out at first. Fans formed the I.T theory and it went viral so bad that it's now a phenomenon of the ME franchise whether anyone likes it or not but now that this is being speculated and put there in the open, any attempt by Bioware to reveal I.T as fact will affect their stock now as it a bit too late. The games critics will say Bioware ran out of idea and ran with a fan theory, butthurt players might endorse this view openly (read the BSN type trolls) others may say Bioware needs to give credit to the fan community for helping them fix their game even if they intended IT all along. Not to mention the control and synthesis crowd who will cry their choice at the very end has been ignored. There might be even legal action by some parties trying to make a quick buck, of course easily dismissed IF bioware simply shows they had the idea all along with their daily tracking notes that they keep for project tracking. Long story short: nothing but more controversy will come from such a move.

Companies can't stop speculation, this is the age of the internet of things but this has in all probability ended any chance of I.T story arc or reveal. You can imagine the various bad elements to it now from a critical and commercial stand point. The fans have speculated so much that many examples have been used up to illustrate the point of I.T. Bioware will do everything to keep it fresh and go a different way. If am even more cynical them saying I.T is an equally valid interpretation is a very clever ploy to keep the interest diverted from other areas to speculate and firmly keep the speculation in the I.T court apart from the obvious benefit of peddling us "buy the DLCs to find out..."

No one can deny even to this day the I.T related speculation is going strong. If the protagonist is someone new why not show a face? Many players like to change their shepards anyway, so whats the point of a shroud to keep things secret? We know it's a Human N7 solider, merely showing a face wont reveal anything about the story's direction. This is exactly what am talking about, a deliberate move by them to keep both the haters and supporters of the I.T angle continuously thinking about the it. A dick move, but that's business.

They are listening to fan feedback but not for the purposes of giving what the fans want but giving the fans something they never expected.

As a fan we will do many things to mold and fit what we experienced into something that is explainable, be it a theory or an elaborately provable set of case points but in the end the story is written by the Bioware writers, if they want to throw out following established lore and keeping the universe's consistent that's really their choice. No one will be able to take them to the cleaners apart from not buying their game and make them lose business. We all know that isn't going to happen in all probability they will make a commercially successful game, whether it creatively/qualitatively tops what they have achieved in the previous trilogy remains to be seen.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:29 am

Coincidentally I'm playing Citadel DLC right now and God, is it campy. Whether intentional or not, to me it feels like a "mission pack" outsourced to an inexperienced studio. So out of touch with the rest of the series.

The Strip is great, so are the encounters with squad members, but the whole identity theft part... worst writing of the trilogy, stylistically speaking. Even Shepard comments "stop telling stupid jokes" at some point during combat.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:57 pm

Oh yeah..the whole clone stuff was a half baked excuse to get a conflict for the gang that wasn't related to the reapers in some way. But, I think that was the point. The whole thing was meant for the writers to do some wild and far out things. In my honest opinion, that DLC was just as much for the writers as it was for us fan.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:04 pm

Also, I'm wondering if anyone has been playing the new dragon age? I wonder if this design philosophy will also be in the new Mass Effect. If it is I hope to god they have more meaningful side quests or I might just die a little. I can also see them shoe-horning something similar to a war table. What do you guys think?

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:43 pm


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:00 pm

Y'all have not swayed my opinion on it at all. Just sayin. I stand by what I said. Bioware doesn't do that. In fact almost no western media does that, especially not video game DLCS. You wanna know the only time I've seen such massive fanservice? Anime. Japanese media. Not Bioware.

Y'all are thinking inside of a box, that I cannot wrap my mind around... because only literalists should really think like this. To think bioware is as y'all are suggesting, is to shit all over the fact that they're the same geniuses who have done everything they have with IT..

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:01 pm

I mean fuck, you can recognize the sheer fact that there is so much to speculate on in terms of Leviathan. And with omega it's still all about IT. But then you get to the DLC that, on the surface is designed to mimick fan service... and you stop analyzing and realizing how it's all reaper indoctrination bullshit?

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:25 pm

Not a literalists, just not taking every single thing as a double meaning, or means IT. Seriously, that's not a bad thing is it? Can't I enjoy it without saying Oh yeah this is fake it means IT? I believe In IT as much as the nice guy, but I also enjoy mass effect on it's superficial level. Not the ending, mind you, just the journey.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:30 pm

Terramine wrote:Y'all are thinking inside of a box, that I cannot wrap my mind around... because only literalists should really think like this. To think bioware is as y'all are suggesting, is to shit all over the fact that they're the same geniuses who have done everything they have with IT..

Nice blanket statement. Haven't you seen the heaps of references, hints in the dialogue, ending references and everything else we found in Citadel? Even the whole clone thing is obvious foreshadowing to Shepard becoming something else and someone taking over his life.

Just because we all can't agree on whether the entire thing was a dream or not, doesn't mean we don't see any relation to IT.

It's fan service because Bioware wanted to give fans a better goodbye to the characters, which was sorely lacking in the vanilla game. Even if/when they do something with IT, we might not see most of those characters again.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:52 pm

I think there's enough in vinalla Mass Effect 3 to prove IT. Leviathan and Omega just added insult to injury IMO. Didn't really find either of them too compelling. Citadel happends to be the one I enjoyed most.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:56 am

People think Omega is full of IT?  Bitch please!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:35 pm

The only bit in Omega that IMO relates to IT is the whole Reactor scene, where they're trapped inside the force field.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:53 pm

What about that scene?

Only thing I can think of is "CNTR BRDG WRNG."

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:34 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
Terramine wrote:Y'all are thinking inside of a box, that I cannot wrap my mind around... because only literalists should really think like this. To think bioware is as y'all are suggesting, is to shit all over the fact that they're the same geniuses who have done everything they have with IT..

Nice blanket statement. Haven't you seen the heaps of references, hints in the dialogue, ending references and everything else we found in Citadel? Even the whole clone thing is obvious foreshadowing to Shepard becoming something else and someone taking over his life.

Just because we all can't agree on whether the entire thing was a dream or not, doesn't mean we don't see any relation to IT.

It's fan service because Bioware wanted to give fans a better goodbye to the characters, which was sorely lacking in the vanilla game. Even if/when they do something with IT, we might not see most of those characters again.
You know what I find funny? The fact that if we look at the EC, y'all claim it's making fun of fans by BEING fan service. That the EC is making fun of people who think like Refuse. Which is it? Because it's one or the other. Either they're trying to make fun of someone with Citadel, or EC isn't a diss either. But again 1.Bioware does not actually do Fan Service. If you see it happen, it's safe to assume there is some purpose to it, in regards to the initial artistic vision. Which we all know is INDOCTRINATION. Not banging Javik.

Saying shit like "wanted to give fans a better goodbye to the characters, which was sorely lacking in the vanilla game" is literally just parroting bioware's EXCUSE. And when you're an ITer you know this is demonstrably FALSE because the only narrative where they need to do that is when you're supposed to take the endings literally. An ITer knows, the "ending" is not a real ending. It is not a goodbye. Because it's not fucking real and Shepard is just being indoctrinated.

Do you also believe Jessica Merizan?

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:39 pm

Rifneno wrote:People think Omega is full of IT?  Bitch please!
More so they try to find it, in it. The most I got might be symbolic references, dialogue, etc. The fact that you can apparently breath in space? In fact I would contest that Citadel has so much more to it that is definitely indoctrination related. In fact, as much as Leviathan was basically the "Indoctrination DLC". Citadel was more like in your face in certain ways. It would put things in front of your face, to try and tell you "HEY DIPSHIT, SHEPARD IS BUSY WASTING TIME HERE INSTEAD OF FIGHTING THE WAR" BLAHBLAHBLAH.

Sidenote... What I found most interesting is the fact that the Reapers will basically never know that there was 2 Shepards running around?

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:24 pm

The clone is exactly that, a "clone". Doesn't have the value the as the real Shepard. Nothing much to see there as to why the reapers were not aware or interested. Am not sure why anyone would be interested in the clone. Illusive man wasn't interested in a cloned Shepard in ME2 for pretty much similar reasons.

Rifneno wrote:People think Omega is full of IT? Bitch please!

I'd say more of the same for Citadel DLC
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