(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:36 am

Yeah, I just wasn't sure. I saw it somewhere but I don't remember the article otherwise I'd link it. They also mentioned that modding would be incredibly difficult because of Frostbite. Although, I think mods for DA:I would be awesome, mainly because I would like to see skyhold fully restored, it drives me crazy that it still has a ton of damage. But, would making a game open source, like skyrim, cause it to be more buggy then usual?

Ah well, if they do saves..which i find doubtful, I wouldn't mind them doing a Keep type deal for it. Like when ME3 launched you were able to download this comic type thing and make choices if I'm not mistaken? I think that's a cool thing to do. I hope they dont stop doing those import type things, Its what makes Bioware really unique.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:40 am

ViolentSound wrote:I saw it somewhere but I don't remember the article otherwise I'd link it. They also mentioned that modding would be incredibly difficult because of Frostbite.

It has nothing to do with being hard to mod. Those complaints are coming from non-developers, like people who want to do mods for the game for fun. You have to pay for the IDE and SDK support with Frostbite engine. EA doesn't want to pay Epic anymore royalties on using their Unreal engine. Frostbite was just a way for them to get out of paying royalties. All new 3D engines have advanced to the point they all look good at a bare minimum but some engines are still vastly better like Unreal 's version 4.

Unreal's older IDEs are free for anyone to use and develop levels or learn 3D engine design, you don't have to pay royalties if your work is purely non-profit. You start paying royalties after your have earned your first $50,000

The most updated free SDK for Unreal is for the Unreal 3 engine. They haven't released a free version for Engine 4 yet. Engine 4 SDK is currently 19 USD /mo plus if you are a big studio then you pay 5% of the gross world wide revenue generated per product (aka game/title)
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:51 pm

Ah, Thats good to know.

So, Can i get everyone's thoughts on the next game? Exactly what you would like to see game play wise. But also, story wise.

To make it interesting, a story idea thats tied into IT. How would you like the reveal to happen, where would you like the story to go after its been confirmed and do you want another trilogy about the reaper war?

and then a story idea not tied into IT. If the reveal doesn't come then what would you like to see the story centered on. Please don't play the whole "If it's not IT i don't care" card. This is just for fun and to be creative.

So Ill start.

IT wise, If its not a sequel to ME3 then I would have to see is a Sidequal. It'd show the reaper war from soldier's perspective. First half of the game would basically be about heading to planets and trying to fend of Cerberus and the Reapers. Doing stuff to help turn the tides. Then in the Climax, the team you recruit, heads into earth to recover shepard's body, and the last half would be working with the Normandy to find a way to wake him up from his Coma, and break Indoctrination. You find it, Then bam he wakes up ready to wreck reaper ass.

Then ME4 would open up with shepard trapped inside his mind(this is where the tutorial would kick in and stuff) finally you wake up, and then starts a new trilogy of trying to fight the reapers and then recovering from it, dealing with the fall out.

If its not IT then it would be cool to have a DA:O type thing, where you pick your race, pick the background, playthrough the background. Later on, You get recruited by C-Sec to form a bounty hunting team, and trek across the corners of the milkyway, searching high and low, taking on contracts to get rid of criminal lords, killers who have escaped prison and other terrorists.While having a over arching story of a large conspiracy to upset the balance of the galaxy.

Basically we'd visit new and familiar locations and we would see more lore fleshed out as well as see more too the politics of the galaxy and each race's politics. I'd love for a hub location to be somewhere in earth, and then learn more about the situations there. I would say this takes place either a year or two before the events of ME1. Or during the two years after the SR1 is destroyed, it would be interesting to see the citizens of the galaxy dealing with his "death"

I dont have any ideas gameplay wise however.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:35 am

Pretty sure it is going to be a sequel, too many hints pointing at that. The armor, tech and mako is all refined and look way more advanced. You have these new races and planets along with known races like Salarians, Krogan etc and you are still a human hero. Pretty much pointing to a sequel. ME1 repackaged with a new hero.

Type of game? I am afraid it will have nothing to do with I.T for reasons I have already touched upon in this thread and elsewhere. I am just curious to see what sort of goofy concept they will bring out to make an excuse for a new set of games. In the highly unlikely case it is IT in any way shape or form, the fireworks are going to be pretty. The whining from the critics, the people who hate I.T, ones who chose an ending other than destroy and liked it are going to go berserk.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:12 am

windsurfing wrote:Pretty sure it is going to be a sequel, too many hints pointing at that. The armor, tech and mako is all refined and look way more advanced. You have these new races and planets along with known races like Salarians, Krogan etc and you are still a human hero. Pretty much pointing to a sequel. ME1 repackaged with a new hero.

Type of game? I am afraid it will have nothing to do with I.T for reasons I have already touched upon in this thread and elsewhere. I am just curious to see what sort of goofy concept they will bring out to make an excuse for a new set of games. In the highly unlikely case it is IT in any way shape or form, the fireworks are going to be pretty. The whining from the critics, the people who hate I.T, ones who chose an ending other than destroy and liked it are going to go berserk.
You believe all that stuff pointing to the fact that bioware has blatantly lied, but when thinking about all the evidence that also says IT is 1000% true... you conclude, that they AREN'T going for an IT reveal?

If it really is a sequel, my bets are on it being IT related.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:13 am

Or at the very least, whatever they really intended that whole time. Because who knows, our theory could've been off in some ways. Or fuck it, maybe the CW guys were right and Shepard wakes up back in ME1 time frame.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:38 am

My guess now is that they are going to do an 'alternate' mass effect trilogy on the next gen consoles - sort of like an alternate universe playthrough, but where everything (including indoctrination theory) will be revealed as you get into the trilogy and will make perfect sense to every player.

Tagline sorta like "You played through mass effect trilogy, now discover the 'real' story"... kinda thing.

cos EA likes money.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:36 pm

Terramine wrote:
You believe all that stuff pointing to the fact that bioware has blatantly lied, but when thinking about all the evidence that also says IT is 1000% true... you conclude, that they AREN'T going for an IT reveal?

If it really is a sequel, my bets are on it being IT related.

Casey Hudson has done a terrible job with ME3 marketing. A lot of lies were indeed tossed around trying to generate hype but coming to your claim that I.T is 1000% true, there couldn't be a more classic sweeping statement without concrete proof. The concrete proof lies with the writers and what they choose to do. So far we have some solid fan speculation but that is all it really is, speculation. If they don't have anything remotely relating to I.T in the next game? What will we classify that as? More waiting time for some future ME game as a 'reveal'?

They considered something along the lines of indoctrination and they dropped it and changed their original ending plans. What the reasons were are again up for speculation. Casey/Walters Ego trip, trying too hard to be different, EA pressure to meet deadlines yada yada yada. We can go on without ever getting to know the real reasons.

More indications are the the next game is a sequel, we just need to see how they are going to address the mess they have made with the ME3 endings, if it is a prequel then the ending fiasco doesn't need to figure in the new games either way because they have have a new protagonist who is going to work through hardships to attain hero status. Chances for a prequel are low if we look at the general reactions from most fans all over the web and comic cons. Not to mention the total lack of any interest for some other "hero" when the major threat are the reapers and Shepard, arguably the bigger legend, is working to handle that threat. I am sure most would find having to play to an also-ran "legend" to be pretty darn boring if it is in Shepard's timeline. A prequel in a previous cycle is even more boring because we know they all lost in the end to the reapers. 

We can look at the complications if they do go the I.T way sticking to the lore. As it stands the 4 endings are totally different especially with the EC DLC, if they stick to the lore they have to pick a canon ending. This will piss off the other groups, no question about it. The obvious choice would be destroy, that way Shepard wakes up from some hallucination. If lets say they try to make the other choices also 'count', then Shepard is indoctrinated into a husk or something, don't know about refuse maybe that leads Shepard to be turned into a vegetable. Regardless of which of the 4 choices the player chose it obviously means the war isn't over with the reapers, far from it. That will need a whole new game to show how the war is won. This is another issue where people can start an uproar stating the ME3 marketing was a complete lie (like there wasn't enough controversy already), there was no taking back of earth let alone a completion of the trilogy. Way too much unfinished business. So you chose destroy, continue as Shepard for the rest of the new game? What about the others who chose from the other choices? They get to play a new protagonist? The mount of work, game assets, repetitions, VOs etc for the same story arc just for the sake of accommodating the poor endings. 

We can simplify all these doubts with what we have seen so far about the new game and Bioware's overall stance. There will be a new protagonist, there will be new races new areas to explore, mass relays will be working (some technobable backstory will explain how) the recent E3 video already talked about "going to the other side of the galaxy", the reapers are not a threat anymore this means the war on earth is a non-issue now. How can one be sure? They said it themselves:  ME1 like experience were you are in awe trying to learn new things about the new world you are in. All these details are not exactly very compatible with the I.T like reveal. This is why I said they will come up with some lame excuse to explain way the endings.

Doing it right would mean some form or I.T like theme in the story to show what happened to Shepard. They are going to invite even more controversy if they go that route. But let's not give too much credit to bioware for completely spotless plot construction. Dark energy was foreshadowed in ME2 by the original lead writer Drew karpyshyn. That plot got suddenly thrown in the bin and never touched upon because the lead writer changed, Mac Walters. He brought in his own ideas. So much for respecting the lore eh? Mac and his Cerberus obsession can be seen all over ME2 and even more so in ME3. Not a single memorable harbinger or main badass reaper trash talking moment with Shepard instead this filth called Cerberus takes center stage. One would think the reapers were the main show here?

Lead writers when they change they can trash old ideas and go with their own, even if it means abandoning a developing subplot midway. Now we have a new lead writer for the next ME game, Chris Schlerf. Mac Walters has become creative director.

Safe to say we will see more radical ideas and departures from what we saw in the first 3 games. Somethings will be left unanswered or completely abandoned. That's what happens when lead writers change. They are competitive and have their own egos, respecting the lore for fans is not the same to them, to them that lore was the work of another artist, it's in the new guy's best interest to do away with some of the old stuff to show who's boss and gets things done on the next level in a new way. Just how things work in a corporate world.

I'd be over the moon if anything like I.T or something along those lines got revealed but am realistic there are way more troubles ahead if they go down that route. At some point you have to accept they are not bullshitting if they say Shepard's story is over. They are not gods of writing plus moronic decisions are not always down to simply the writers, business execs are a different breed. They can go as far as interfering with the writers/producers to have things changed. Perfect example: Hollywood, plenty of accounts how studio heads intervene to have the script changed because they think it sucks or some studios not willing to take it up because they don't see the value. These clueless losers have no vision or understanding of changing trends. I wouldn't bet on anything when it comes to an industry where lots of money is involved.

If you ask me the time to fix or reveal anything to really let the I.T hype get massive traction among everyone who has played it is long past. All they are doing now is further distancing themselves from the Shepard trilogy like its the plague, they keep repeating Shepard's story is over, it's a disservice to call the next game 'ME4' and whatnot.

Bioware will need mighty steely balls to go the  I.T way and face the controversy, they have faced quite a bit already, the new crew will want to play it safe and prove they can "get it done", commercially that is. At the end of the day EA doesn't care if the franchise is tainted or ruined in anyway for the hardcore fans as long as it rakes in the dollars. Bioware Montreal taking this risk? I just don't see it happening now IMHO.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:43 pm

dorktainian wrote:My guess now is that they are going to do an 'alternate' mass effect trilogy on the next gen consoles - sort of like an alternate universe playthrough, but where everything (including indoctrination theory) will be revealed as you get into the trilogy and will make perfect sense to every player.

Tagline sorta like "You played through mass effect trilogy, now discover the 'real' story"... kinda thing.

cos EA likes money.

Lol don't give Bioware ideas plus CW might think Bioware is going to do a JJ Star Trek by using time travel to change the timeline and win the war early on. Now where did I see the same thing recently? oh right... Terminator Genisys.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:12 pm

windsurfing wrote:
dorktainian wrote:My guess now is that they are going to do an 'alternate' mass effect trilogy on the next gen consoles - sort of like an alternate universe playthrough, but where everything (including indoctrination theory) will be revealed as you get into the trilogy and will make perfect sense to every player.

Tagline sorta like "You played through mass effect trilogy, now discover the 'real' story"... kinda thing.

cos EA likes money.

Lol don't give Bioware ideas plus CW might think Bioware is going to do a JJ Star Trek by using time travel to change the timeline and win the war early on. Now where did I see the same thing recently? oh right... Terminator Genisys.

indeed....

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:34 pm

I'm still going to by the next ME. Shun me if you wish, but I really need to see what happends. xD just becuase my curiosity will kill me..so all I have to say to Bioware is Bring it on..I still love the ME universe. But, my biggest problem is if they do move completely away from reapers..they'll never be able to create a villain that's as terrifying and threatening as the reapers. They would need some galactic space god the size of a planet to make a more threatening villain. And that would be stupid af

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:04 pm


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:27 pm

windsurfing wrote:Casey Hudson has done a terrible job with ME3 marketing. A lot of lies were indeed tossed around trying to generate hype but coming to your claim that I.T is 1000% true, there couldn't be a more classic sweeping statement without concrete proof. *snip*
There is no such thing as concrete proof. There isn't even "concrete proof" of the theory of evolution and there never will be. There is EVIDENCE, evolution is FACT... but Something being fact, and it being proven, are 2 different things completely. Even if Bioware had from the start said "indoctrination theory is true" they could've been lying, it's the overwhelming evidence that makes it fact.

For that matter you don't seem to grasp that no matter what bioware ends up doing, Indoctrination was their intent. If their plans got fudged up, that doesn't mean the fudged up stuff is legit. It means we end up getting handed non-canonical bullshit. No matter what they do, it cannot outweigh the evidence.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:25 pm

*sighs* You know what just dawned on me..If IT was planned to play a much larger role in the game, and mechanical wise and if some higher up at EA was like "I dont get this, its too weird. too edgy. Take it out" and in Bioware's last act of defiance they created that ambiguous ending.  Of course they cant blame EA but if that did happen, it just makes me depressed.

 Just more evidence of this industry self sabotaging. Im so sick of publishers pulling this crap over and over again. Like Far Cry 4 has to have this mature storyline, meanwhile you ride on elephants and kill thousands of people like its nothing. Yet you want me to take the game seriously?

 If you're gonna let developers have some creativity then let them go balls out, and try to do something different mechanically. Don't straddle this line. It just makes it feel puerile. Games won't be taken seriously at this stage. I mean in Hollywood creativity is suffering but at least there are SOME different movies out there, that offer more then whats tried and dried up.

I'm pointing my finger at Ubisoft here the most, since they released 4 games in a row that are the same thing over and over again. This is why Saints Row 3 and 4 are such a blast to play, because they were allowed to go balls out ridiculous and funny, and make fun of how ridiculous open world games are, not once are you expected to take the story seriously and ponder on moral conundrums. Yes it follows the same mechanics of most open world games, but at least you're laughing the whole way.

I miss the days where Developers really ran things. Publishers are just talentless hacks who weaseled there way into the industry, and create a job and a demand that wasn't necessary and now have way more power then they deserve. Let developers make the games they want, keep your uncreative hands out of the creative process.

Dont get me wrong I love video games, and RPG games and Open World Games. It just makes me so angry that they could do so much more yet they are  being stifled because of BS backroom dealings and corporate censorship.

End rant.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:44 pm

ViolentSound wrote:Publishers are just talentless hacks who weaseled there way into the industry, and create a job and a demand that wasn't necessary and now have way more power then they deserve. Let developers make the games they want, keep your uncreative hands out of the creative process.

This so much.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Ithurael on Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:10 am

ViolentSound wrote:I'm still going to by the next ME. Shun me if you wish, but I really need to see what happends. xD just becuase my curiosity will kill me..so all I have to say to Bioware is Bring it on..I still love the ME universe. But, my biggest problem is if they do move completely away from reapers..they'll never be able to create a villain that's as terrifying and threatening as the reapers. They would need some galactic space god the size of a planet to make a more threatening villain. And that would be stupid af

Why would you or anyone buy a game or anything from a developer who blatantly lied to you, treated you like crap, and then acted like it was the fan's fault they were angry because..."Shepard Died"?. LOL I mean guys, your imaginations are great but your faith and dedication in bioware is...touching? What happens if the next ME is just a sidquel or AU? Will you buy that and then look for tiny bits of 'evidence' hinting at the reveal in the next game? Srsly?

I am so happy I never bought the DLC past Leviathan...and even that was ok at best. I may one day buy DA:!...if I see it on a massive sale with all the DLC included or I just pirate it. As for ME...lolnope. Bio blew it and botched it soooo damn badly that there is no point. An IT reveal at this point in time, even now, would be too late for me. Especially how they treated their fanbase and acted like they did nothing wrong at all.

Sry...I needed to vent

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http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/viewtopic.forum?t=607

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