(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:26 pm

dorktainian wrote:
Yep.  The question is.... is he in London?  IT is based on shepard being in the rubble during the beam run. Is Vancouver (after the reapers invade) an acceptable alternative? - as it would take IT back a lot further (but not reduce its overall relevance).

I dunno.  I'm still saying london, but would not be surprised if he woke up in vancouver.

Hmm, further back as in? I am a little rusty now can't figure out where that would be in the timeline.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:55 pm

windsurfing wrote:
dorktainian wrote:
Yep.  The question is.... is he in London?  IT is based on shepard being in the rubble during the beam run. Is Vancouver (after the reapers invade) an acceptable alternative? - as it would take IT back a lot further (but not reduce its overall relevance).

I dunno.  I'm still saying london, but would not be surprised if he woke up in vancouver.

Hmm, further back as in? I am a little rusty now can't figure out where that would be in the timeline.





i can't see it to be honest.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:32 pm

Yes, that 'helping hand' art is from the Collector's Edition. I can confirm, because I have it.

Shepard waking up in Vancouver would be ridiculous. That would invalidate the entire game. Vancouver is right at the start, when the Reapers arrive on Earth.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:43 pm

Maybe the sort of things we see is in that art is more common construction style of the time and so can be found in parts of London too?
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:57 pm

Could easily be London. London also has buildings like that in game.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:17 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yes, that 'helping hand' art is from the Collector's Edition. I can confirm, because I have it.

Shepard waking up in Vancouver would be ridiculous. That would invalidate the entire game. Vancouver is right at the start, when the Reapers arrive on Earth.

Hypothetically speaking...

I still don't really buy into this type of argument. How would it invalidate the entire game? At the time you thought it happened, right? And you enjoyed it. So it was real. Not trying to go all pseudophilosophical on you, but that's honestly how I'd feel about it. It's fiction anyway. So if you like fiction, why not fiction within fiction?

Of course, BW would have to include some kind of narrative justification. Like a realm beyond our understanding that somehow has repercussions in reality as we know it.

Or like, Inception, the movie? All of that doesn't really happen. Is the entire plot invalidated? No, because the parallel reality served a purpose and affected regular reality.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:27 pm

smash016 wrote: No, because the parallel reality served a purpose and affected regular reality.

Elaborate because if at that point onwards if Shepard is out and in some medbay hallucinating then whatever happened in parallel in the real world doesn't matter to us, we still didn't complete Shepard's role/story unless that is the story, to stay in the medbay somewhere towards the end.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:42 pm

Yeah, what I forgot to mention is that a continuation / completion of said story would be practically mandatory to satisfy most people.

But basic IT already assumes that much will happen, you see? Let alone more outlandish concepts.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:23 pm

smash016 wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:Yes, that 'helping hand' art is from the Collector's Edition. I can confirm, because I have it.

Shepard waking up in Vancouver would be ridiculous. That would invalidate the entire game. Vancouver is right at the start, when the Reapers arrive on Earth.

Hypothetically speaking...

I still don't really buy into this type of argument. How would it invalidate the entire game? At the time you thought it happened, right? And you enjoyed it. So it was real. Not trying to go all pseudophilosophical on you, but that's honestly how I'd feel about it. It's fiction anyway. So if you like fiction, why not fiction within fiction?

Of course, BW would have to include some kind of narrative justification. Like a realm beyond our understanding that somehow has repercussions in reality as we know it.

Or like, Inception, the movie? All of that doesn't really happen. Is the entire plot invalidated? No, because the parallel reality served a purpose and affected regular reality.

It matters because it means all those big emotional moments and big decisions never took place. You never knew Javik, last of the Protheans. Mordin didn't sacrifice himself for the Krogan, you never made peace between Geth and Quarians (or whatever your choice was). That moment when you had to swallow a tear when Thane told you the prayer was for you? Never happened.

These were all BIG moments, the culmination of story arcs that started way back in ME1 and ME2. You can't let players go through all that and go 'Just a dream! LOL', it goes against immersion, it goes against everything they hoped to achieve in terms of letting people feel what Shepard was feeling.

The fan outrage would be twice the ending thing, and rightly so.

I'm sorry, but I really can't fathom how anyone can think that would not be a big deal. It doesn't get any bigger than that in an RPG where choices are supposed to matter.

I can't think of any plausible way to let these things happen 'in the real world' while Shepard is in whatever kind of virtual reality.

And that's the biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference with IT. That choice, even though it doesn't happen the way it is shown to us, has serious consequences.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:59 pm

It seems kinda shitty from a story writing perspective. It's like a big nono, to make it all a dream. Unless in the case of inception, the whole journey was them intentionally traveling through dream levels. People knew under what context it was all taking place, it was established from the start of the narrative, that it was all nothin but dreams.

However from an INDOCTRINATION standpoint. The sheer power of that blast and everything? Sure, it's plausible. It seriously seems plausible, that the moment the Reapers landed... BAM, indoctrinated.

You remember what happens in arrival if you let the clock count down? BAM, instant indoctrination. As if the Reapers had really appeared.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:19 pm

Terramine wrote:However from an INDOCTRINATION standpoint. The sheer power of that blast and everything? Sure, it's plausible. It seriously seems plausible, that the moment the Reapers landed... BAM, indoctrinated.

Well, yeah, but that doesn't necessarily have to mean it's all an illusion from that point. It would make far more sense if Shepard is still in reality, but starts to get the dreams, slight hallucinations, feelings, etcetera. Which is pretty much the case IMO.

I sometimes think that the reason we hear the dream music in the background (when Shep gets knocked out in Vancouver), is because that's where the dream is 'planted' so to speak, to lay the ground work. Then in London, when doubt has had enough time to creep into Shepard's mind, Harbinger finishes what was started in Vancouver.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by jojon2se on Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:27 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:...
I sometimes think that the reason we hear the dream music in the background (when Shep gets knocked out in Vancouver), is because that's where the dream is 'planted' so to speak, to lay the ground work.
...

...or the semi-conscious state simply gives you a brief glimpse of what has already slowly been germinating under the surface for quite some time. Who knows how many mornings Shepard's house arrest has left them staring wistfully at that kid playing on the rooftop.

Shifting gear, maybe. :7

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:28 pm

jojon2se wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:...
I sometimes think that the reason we hear the dream music in the background (when Shep gets knocked out in Vancouver), is because that's where the dream is 'planted' so to speak, to lay the ground work.
...

...or the semi-conscious state simply gives you a brief glimpse of what has already slowly been germinating under the surface for quite some time. Who knows how many  mornings Shepard's house arrest has left them staring wistfully at that kid playing on the rooftop.

Shifting gear, maybe. :7

Quite possible.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:05 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:It matters because it means all those big emotional moments and big decisions never took place. You never knew Javik, last of the Protheans. Mordin didn't sacrifice himself for the Krogan, you never made peace between Geth and Quarians (or whatever your choice was). That moment when you had to swallow a tear when Thane told you the prayer was for you? Never happened.

These were all BIG moments, the culmination of story arcs that started way back in ME1 and ME2. You can't let players go through all that and go 'Just a dream! LOL', it goes against immersion, it goes against everything they hoped to achieve in terms of letting people feel what Shepard was feeling.

The fan outrage would be twice the ending thing, and rightly so.

I'm sorry, but I really can't fathom how anyone can think that would not be a big deal. It doesn't get any bigger than that in an RPG where choices are supposed to matter.

I can't think of any plausible way to let these things happen 'in the real world' while Shepard is in whatever kind of virtual reality.

And that's the biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference with IT. That choice, even though it doesn't happen the way it is shown to us, has serious consequences.

I understand what you're saying, it just isn't true for me personally.

Is it Thane who said "If a memory feels as real as life, it is as valid as life" or something like that?

And like I said many times, the reveal wouldn't be "Just a dream! LOL," obviously that would be lame.

The purpose could very well be letting people feel what Shepard was feeling. Just like IT's main premise is not just indoctrinating Shepard, but the player as well. If the player character isn't aware of whatever secret business is going on, then neither should the player. The opposite would actually break the immersion, no less.

Just by analogy: the people living in The Matrix (I hate that movie btw) are very "real," and things Neo does in that simulation still matter. To indicate there are ways to have a meaningful parallel reality.

You'd have to think outside the box, and that's the biggest problem, I guess. I might like that kind of stuff, a few others around here do, too, but many out there won't. At least not in its purest form. It would be up to BW to spin it and integrate it into a more mundane space opera story.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:46 pm

Wait, we're thinking all of Mass Effect 3 was an indoctrination now? I thought that was Choose Wisely's thing, not ours.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by CoolioThane on Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:53 am

We are all individuals.

One does not think for all, and all do not think for one. I think all the Indoctrination Theory ever agreed upon was that indoctrination affected the ending of Mass Effect 3 to a large extent.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by jojon2se on Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:06 am

Hanako Ikezawa wrote:Wait, we're thinking all of Mass Effect 3 was an indoctrination now? I thought that was Choose Wisely's thing, not ours.

Just some idle thought-experimenting around the fringes, it seems?

Although: Indoctrination is a slow process. You can not just implant the idea that your victim hate apples, as a one-off; he'll think: "hang on, I had an apple yesterday, and it was delicious", and that's without going into the matter of the distinction between indoctrination and mind control.
Do a few things gradually over time, though: A few subtle images of rotting and worm-ridden apples; Manipulate the taste- and texture sensation; Cause heartburns of increasing intensity, with every apple eaten. That sort of thing.

If the Vancouver kid is {EDIT: an illusion a figment of Shep's imagination}, there must have been some rather far-developed manipulation mechanism in place at that time.

Full-on illusion may be a bit too much, but it doesn't take that, to indoctrinate.

EDIT:
CoolioThane wrote:We are all individuals.
*raises finger*
I'm not.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:10 am

smash016 wrote:You'd have to think outside the box, and that's the biggest problem, I guess. I might like that kind of stuff, a few others around here do, too, but many out there won't. At least not in its purest form. It would be up to BW to spin it and integrate it into a more mundane space opera story.

I think movies are a better medium for that sort of thing than games where your choices are supposed to matter.

Aside from that, they'd have to come up with an outrageously ingenious scenario in order for it to be even remotely excusable.

I just don't see it happening.

I mean, even if "just" IT is true, it would be groundbreaking in terms of immersion. Like you said, they would have to/ had to fool the player. It would be something of a milestone in gaming. Still, many people would hate it. Imagine something way more far-reaching and cerebral than that. Many, many people just wouldn't accept it.

I just don't see them pulling it off in a way that players would accept. IT, it's... possible. Possible, however I'm not sure how likely. "Plans change", maybe, or whatever it was supposed to mean.

Gah.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by windsurfing on Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:21 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:"Plans change", maybe, or whatever it was supposed to mean.

Gah.

Yeah especially when the lead writers change.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by jojon2se on Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:38 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:...Like you said, they would have to/ had to fool the player. It would be something of a milestone in gaming. Still, many people would hate it. Imagine something way more far-reaching and cerebral than that. Many, many people just wouldn't accept it.
...

Especially considering it could involve a degree of using the combined indulging suspension of disblief and media savviness of the audience, against them, which would be unfair by any accounts.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Jusseb on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:15 am

I really hope they make the HD remake of ME1 and box it with all the others including all DLC.

Planning on another playthrough but hope to do that on my PS4.

Any word on that?
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Raistlin Majere on Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:28 pm

jojon2se wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:...Like you said, they would have to/ had to fool the player. It would be something of a milestone in gaming. Still, many people would hate it. Imagine something way more far-reaching and cerebral than that. Many, many people just wouldn't accept it.
...

Especially considering it could involve a degree of using the combined indulging suspension of disblief and media savviness of the audience, against them, which would be unfair by any accounts.
I dont know, I feel we could use more games who gave the player a kick in the nuts if they disregarded what was happening around them, thinking about each choice only based on what the intention of the choice was instead of what led up to that choice.

A good example is Desu Ex: HR where in at one point the player is contacted regarding a standardized update to ones cybernetics. However a player who has been following the plot should be wary of this due to the developments that have happened and indeed grabbing this upgrade severily hurts you in a later boss fight.

Another game, Baiten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean, exploits the fact that the player is embodied as a Guardian Spirit tied to the main character instead of you actually beeing the main character. Your presence in such a way is acknowledged, but for most of the time seems only a convenient way to draw the player into the game...until the big twist about half way through where the fact that you are the Guardian Spirit of the main character and not the main character, means that certain information he had was kept from you, specifically that he is the traitor that has long been hinted to be in the group.

Baiten Kaitos case is not a choice, and it is pretty obvious if you know it is coming, but I imagine few would expect the main character to play the traitor in an RPG.

And I actually would like to see more thinsg like that in videogames, specifically so that the audience might be a little slower to play the suspension of disbelief card or be so certain in their savviness.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:35 pm

Another game, Baiten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean, exploits the fact that the player is embodied as a Guardian Spirit tied to the main character instead of you actually beeing the main character. Your presence in such a way is acknowledged, but for most of the time seems only a convenient way to draw the player into the game...until the big twist about half way through where the fact that you are the Guardian Spirit of the main character and not the main character, means that certain information he had was kept from you, specifically that he is the traitor that has long been hinted to be in the group.
Cool 

JRPGs are often cheesy as fuck (note: often in a good way, just also often in a distasteful way, it depends), but their ideas are definitely ones that western RPGs can and should learn from, if they want to be more interesting with their plots.

Some that come to mind are the Shin Megami Tensei games, Xenogears/saga/blade, Chrono Trigger/Cross. That said, the themes JRPGs deal with, existed in things like D&D before that, so I guess things go full circle?

~~~

The only thing I *need* is for a more blatant in-your-face acknowledgement in the next game that anything but Destroy kills our Shepard. Obviously, it is right there in the ME3 ending, but there should be more of the thematic slap to the player about it and what it meant.

Bioware can do whatever else otherwise. But this bit is why I'm still very into IT. They can't build up stuff like [see: DD's thread of quotes], and not do something important with that. Sure, I think there's more going on than what IT supposes, but I also think IT is more core to what is happening in ME3 anyway, and it needs to be dealt with beyond laladreamland Extended Cut.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:09 pm

Hanako Ikezawa wrote:Wait, we're thinking all of Mass Effect 3 was an indoctrination now? I thought that was Choose Wisely's thing, not ours.

They think IT is correct - they just think it goes a lot further than is obvious in the game.

It's an opinion. Some people agree. Some people don't.




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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by jojon2se on Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:58 pm

Raistlin Majere wrote:
I dont know, I feel we could use more games who gave the player a kick in the nuts if they disregarded what was happening around them, thinking about each choice only based on what the intention of the choice was instead of what led up to that choice.

Ah, that is probably not what I was speaking of.

The examples you gave, appear firmy rooted in story and not really subverting reasonable expectations at all -- Indeed, I am, on the contrary, pretty certain the Deus Ex: Human Revolution thing would have had just about the entirety of the audience immediately suspicious, even without explicit context, because that is how it *always* works out in these stories - /my/ cliché alert alarm certainly rang at that moment in the game, and I can't imagine I'm in any way unusual.
It's not like they masked it as any ordinary level-up, or something.

As for the other case; Even without extra levels of distancing between the player and the Player Character, I belive we are well used, these days, to PC's having a history and agendas that we are not privy to.

I was more referring to things like how early in the life of IT, there were some who were arguing things like the logic rigging behind game events and story dissemination, as evidence for IT.
"Look: X doesn't happen until you Y", and the obvious response to that sort of observation, is of course: "Welcome to game design 101."

Bioware are warmly welcome to turn expecations on their heads, with regard to their ingrained strict adherence to their boilerplate take on the hero's journey, but they do not get to be smug about it, unless context is sufficient to, so to speak, "tell parody from the real surreal thing".
(That said: The whole ME3 no-ending really feels bona fide right out of said boilerplate -- we're traversing the Land of Spirits in Jade Empire, and about to claw our way back to life, with new understanding and inner strength, or whatever. :P)

In short; Bioware, with Mass Effect, do not get get to get away with the sort of things that The Stanley Parable gets away with, because that sort things is what The Stanley Parable is all about, unlike Mass Effect.

There IS room for a healthy dose of  Third Fourth Wall Breaking and "indoctrinating the player", but it needs proper distinct (EDIT: ...and not too meta...) context to justify it, and that may not be the the case with every thing that has ever been brought up.

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