(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Eryri on Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:43 pm

DoomsdayDevice wrote:

As far as the "not a prequel and not quite a sequel" thing goes, it's simple. Apparently they're actually going the garbage route of making a story that's chronologically much later than but also entirely disconnected from the story we know. (Edit: Er, I just noticed what clennon8 said)

The funny thing is, by going to an entirely new galaxy, they're throwing out the window everything that makes the Mass Effect universe. Unless, you know, there's mass relays and Reapers in Andromeda too (probably not), but even then we'll have totally different races, etc.

I just don't see how people can get into the whole thing.

It's a monumental cop-out of unholy proportions.

QFT. I've actually seen people speculate that this is in the far future and people are in Andromeda because the Milky Way is overpopulated. Seriously! The entire 100,000 light year diameter of the Milky Way is now full, and it's easier to travel 2.5 million light years to another galaxy than persuade the Krogans to go on the pill!

I've seen other worthless hipsters claim that they're glad Shepard and co on the scrap heap. That "clinging to the past would hold back the artistic development of gaming as a medium." But perhaps they have a point. After all, everyone was so disappointed that Harrison Ford would be back behind the wheel of the Falcon. Oh no, sorry. I've confused disappointed with FUCKING DELIGHTED.

For the last 2 games, Mass Effect's Unique Selling Point has been its continuity. The fact that each Shepard (and each player's universe) has progressively built up a unique history. This "baggage" (as some might call it) is what elevates ME above the like of Gears of War and Halo. It's what gives Shepard personality. "Life" if you will. Throw all that away and you just have a game about a generic space marine, bumming about a world derived clearly from Star Trek, Star Wars, BSG and a dash of Babylon 5.

ZerebusPrime wrote:The only way I can see an ark being built pre-Reaper invasion is if the Asari government was playing stupid while knowing full well of what could await them thanks to their own personal prothean archive.  Then they built an Ark filled to the brim with multiple sentient species and DNA samples to make sure their own people had sufficiently diverse breeding stock.

It would, however, amuse me if someone discovered that the Crucible was a Reaper trap early into its construction and so the Alliance used the Crucible project as cover for the construction of an ark.  And then when the Reapers go to turn on the Crucible that they've just captured and docked with the Citadel, they find out that almost all of the eezo is missing (rendering the device useless), having instead been used to create the most powerful FTL drive known to anyone in the last epoch.  Cue the ark ship zooming out into dark space.

Fanciful thinking keeps me sane.

Either of those possibilities would work for me. You're not the only one who, to paraphrase Nelson Muntz, prefers illusion to despair. Noob's idea of the Crucible blast being designed to knock every non-Reaper ship in space out of their reach would also be OK by me. It would be a bit of a twist if all that stuff about targeting systems in the Crucible codex entries would actually be to target everything but the Reapers. It would provide some hope that we might meet the Normandy Crew in Andromeda.

Putting aside any thoughts of Shepard for the moment, am I crazy for thinking that the trailer N7 is possibly a villain? I know that picking a place to go and then murdering everyone there is exactly what we've always done as players, but it seems a bit aggressive and even crass for a supposed explorer. He's not defending anything, he's just looking for shit that he wants, going to get it, and fuck anyone who happens to already live there.


Last edited by Eryri on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Dwailing on Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:54 pm

Brief thought, remember that the asari councilor mentioned continuity of species plans after Thessia went up in smoke?  I wonder if they'll attempt to tie Andromeda into that one throwaway line somehow.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by WeAreHarbinger on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:11 pm

fshep wrote: ^^ Swob's post reminds me that TIM and Cerberus can probably also be filed in the category of admitting the Reapers existed, and they seem to have enough resources to build a dreadnought in secret, right?

I would of included Cerberus had i not thought we pretty much know their plans (or most of them) in ME 2 and TIM is indoctrinated/set on controlling the reapers throughout ME 3. Though they have the money and power to build an ark it would squash the canon that TIM was set on controlling the reapers by 3, so wanting to get away would be pointless.

ETA: though....Bioware squashing any sort of canon for the story seems to be the norm. lol

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:22 pm

i'm sorry but where the fuck did everyone get time to build a fucking ark? I mean the milky way is getting owned by the reapers. We're putting up a pretty good fight but getting our asses kicked in the long run. Who or what would be fucking stupid enough to build a fucking ark to go to fucking andromeda 2 1/2 million light years away?

Reality Check ffs.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:29 pm

So if Andromeda, is that where the SR2 ended up, and if so what other ships ended up in Andromeda? The Titanic?

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:49 pm

Eryri wrote:
Putting aside any thoughts of Shepard for the moment, am I crazy for thinking that the trailer N7 is possibly a villain?

This thread, few pages back.

That N7 Cowboy finds a planet that could be habitable to human life, travels there, and then promptly draws his Carnifex before walking offscreen. Shepard only ever used the Carnifex in ME3 when he was about to do something evil.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:52 pm

dorktainian wrote:So if Andromeda, is that where the SR2 ended up, and if so what other ships ended up in Andromeda?  The Titanic?

Don't forget the USS Eldridge (Philadelphia Experiment) and the passengers of the Hindenburg.



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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by clennon8 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:10 pm

Um, you knuckleheads do realize the Titanic was found right here on Earth, like, 30 years ago, right? lol.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:15 pm

clennon8 wrote:Um, you knuckleheads do realize the Titanic was found right here on Earth, like, 30 years ago, right?  lol.

Yes, because that's where we dumped it at the end of the game to come. ....I get all my gaming information from Rufus from Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure now.






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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:26 pm

I think one of the biggest problem with that N7 guy being Shepard is that unless you played the default appearance, everyone's Shepard looks different and since this is a Next Gen release I'm not sure how they would be able to accomplish that import. If that character is important, and is either a villain or a bad ass leader of whatever Ark is, or some outlaw space cowboy/pirate thing, if they want any sort of character development they cannot keep him hidden in the helmet. So his face will have to be revealed. I think if it is Shepard, it'd piss quite a few people off. ( I wouldn't care though since I played the default appearance)

I still hope all the "Everything is new" is just misdirection and over the course of the MEA's plot we'll find that it ties back to the reapers, Shepard, his crew and the War For Survival.

Like some third act twist or soemthing

EDIT: Im also convinced that they would not be spending as much time as they have been on this game unless it's the first of a new planned trilogy, or saga.


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:36 pm

so maybe your choice at the end of the third game dictates exactly what powers / attitude the bad guy in the fourth game has? That might work, but there's still a shit tonne of whatthefuckery that needs answering.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Eryri on Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:45 pm

ZerebusPrime wrote:
clennon8 wrote:Um, you knuckleheads do realize the Titanic was found right here on Earth, like, 30 years ago, right?  lol.

Yes, because that's where we dumped it at the end of the game to come.  ....I get all my gaming information from Rufus from Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure now.






And there it is.  I've cracked.

Lol. Welcome to the club. You know, there was a Bill and Ted parody rap on YouTube a week or two ago, and half the commenters hadn't a clue who they were. God I felt old.

Re the Carnifex, I must admit I never took note of that sort of thing in the cut scenes, but if that's true and Bioware are still using the same Easter eggs and cues in this game then it's very intriguing

ViolentSound wrote:I think one of the biggest problem with that N7 guy being Shepard is that unless you played the default appearance, everyone's Shepard looks different and since this is a Next Gen release I'm not sure how they would be able to accomplish that import. If that character is important, and is either a villain or a bad ass leader of whatever Ark is, or some outlaw space cowboy/pirate thing, if they want any sort of character development they cannot keep him hidden in the helmet. So his face will have to be revealed. I think if it is Shepard, it'd piss quite a few people off. ( I wouldn't care though since I played the default appearance)


They managed that in Dragon Age Inquisition with Hawke actually. The game paused and allowed you to re customise his face with the new character creation tools when he entered the story.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Guest on Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:00 pm

WeAreHarbinger wrote:
fshep wrote: ^^ Swob's post reminds me that TIM and Cerberus can probably also be filed in the category of admitting the Reapers existed, and they seem to have enough resources to build a dreadnought in secret, right?

I would of included Cerberus had i not thought we pretty much know their plans (or most of them) in ME 2 and TIM is indoctrinated/set on controlling the reapers throughout ME 3. Though they have the money and power to build an ark it would squash the canon that TIM was set on controlling the reapers by 3, so wanting to get away would be pointless.

ETA: though....Bioware squashing any sort of canon for the story seems to be the norm. lol

Maybe non-indoctrinated, Reaper-believing Cerberus defectors built the ark. MAYBE BRYNN DID IT!!

Kidding.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Guest on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:02 pm

ViolentSound wrote:I think one of the biggest problem with that N7 guy being Shepard is that unless you played the default appearance, everyone's Shepard looks different and since this is a Next Gen release I'm not sure how they would be able to accomplish that import. If that character is important, and is either a villain or a bad ass leader of whatever Ark is, or some outlaw space cowboy/pirate thing, if they want any sort of character development they cannot keep him hidden in the helmet. So his face will have to be revealed. I think if it is Shepard, it'd piss quite a few people off. ( I wouldn't care though since I played the default appearance)

I still hope all the "Everything is new" is just misdirection and over the course of the MEA's plot we'll find that it ties back to the reapers, Shepard, his crew and the War For Survival.

Like some third act twist or soemthing

EDIT: Im also convinced that they would not be spending as much time as they have been on this game unless it's the first of a new planned trilogy, or saga.

They addressed this in DAI. Character creator tool can be used to accommodate such things, at least if planned in advance for it.

EDIT: Woops already said.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ViolentSound on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:51 pm

Oh right, Totally forgot about that.

Also I'd like to propose an idea of how they may explain away how they went to Andromeda. This may have been mentioned, but I think now that it's confirmed it's a new galaxy then I'll just bring it up again. Wormholes. Its far fetched I know and not realistic .

But assuming that whole selecting a place to go and then automatically teleporting to the planet wasn't done just for the sake of looking cool, then it looks like that may actually be the basis for "this how we can travel to Andromeda and other clusters". This also means they might actually build a story around that idea, and we might see them touch on Relativity and more Quantum Physics.

If anyone's seen the film Interstellar that is basically what I am talking about.

I don't know much about either of those two to know if it's touched on at all in the original trilogy so correct me if they've already gone there.

I also feel there wasn't a big pay off for dark matter at all, I know what it is, but they never really went anywhere with it even though there are some references in the games about it. So maybe we'll see more stuff about that?

Basically I'm thinking they may go more meta in MEA.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by noobcannon on Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:03 am

assuming everything after the me3 beam run is a "dream" we still don't know what the crucible is/does. pretty sure that has something to do with us being in andromeda, not building a fucking "ark". normandy crash landed on a jungle planet in andromeda, not the milky way imo

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:25 am

noobcannon wrote:assuming everything after the me3 beam run is a "dream" we still don't know what the crucible is/does. pretty sure that has something to do with us being in andromeda, not building a fucking "ark". normandy crash landed on a jungle planet in andromeda, not the milky way imo
A magic beam that transports us to another galaxy (something that's moving at 70 miles a second for a device that was designed millions or even billions of years ago) makes more sense than a magic beam that gives all the trees in the galaxy printed circuitry... but only slightly.

Hell, it makes LESS sense than control and destroy.

So yeah, we may get there via the Crucible, but I hope you don't think it's going to make sense.  There is no making sense of this.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by noobcannon on Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:40 am

Rifneno wrote:
noobcannon wrote:assuming everything after the me3 beam run is a "dream" we still don't know what the crucible is/does. pretty sure that has something to do with us being in andromeda, not building a fucking "ark". normandy crash landed on a jungle planet in andromeda, not the milky way imo
A magic beam that transports us to another galaxy (something that's moving at 70 miles a second for a device that was designed millions or even billions of years ago) makes more sense than a magic beam that gives all the trees in the galaxy printed circuitry... but only slightly.

Hell, it makes LESS sense than control and destroy.

So yeah, we may get there via the Crucible, but I hope you don't think it's going to make sense.  There is no making sense of this.


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:52 am

noobcannon wrote:


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:54 am

Eryri wrote:

Lol. Welcome to the club. You know, there was a Bill and Ted parody rap on YouTube a week or two ago, and half the commenters hadn't a clue who they were. God I felt old.

Dude. That is most heinous. It is a sad and bogus truth that with every year, fewer and fewer of the memes of any of our childhoods remain relevant. Also, "bogus truth" is a phrase that will keep me smirking for hours for no good reason.


....and Lewis and Clark totally took the fall in that battle.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Jusseb on Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:44 am

dorktainian wrote:so maybe your choice at the end of the third game dictates exactly what powers / attitude the bad guy in the fourth game has? That might work, but there's still a shit tonne of whatthefuckery that needs answering.

How does that work? The new ME:A will get on the next-gen consoles. They already said that they don't plan to launch a remastered edition of all previous ME games. That is another confirmation that they will abandon the previous storyline.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:57 am

Jusseb wrote:
dorktainian wrote:so maybe your choice at the end of the third game dictates exactly what powers / attitude the bad guy in the fourth game has? That might work, but there's still a shit tonne of whatthefuckery that needs answering.

How does that work?

Well that's simple. Something akin to DA keep.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Jusseb on Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:12 am

Don't think that is going to happen. They wanted ME:A to be for everyone so they just ignored the fans and everything that happened before and start fresh. That way everyone can get in and the ME name will trigger the fanbase that didn't turned their backs on them.


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TurianRebel212 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:52 am

Rifneno wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:If Mass Effect 3 is legit and the ending choices and "paths" that the player selected are legit....

I'm still not willing to even entertain this notion.  They told us for the first time in Arrival that fucked up dreams are a symptom of indoctrination while a Reaper screamed "Your mind will be mine!" at Shepard, then ME3 starts with Shepard seeing some douche kid die and even though all we had was a demo with no ending and no context, BSN was alit with "That kid's not real, it's classic Sixth Sense stuff here", then we spend the whole game having fucked up dreams of the not-real kid with increasingly intense indoctrination symptoms like oily shadows while Reapers tell us things like "You resist, but you will fall", only for the whole thing to end in a scene that's been described by professionals in the field as "too surreal not to be on purpose" where the ghost of douche kid offers us the paths of known indoctrinated agents' fall and only by selecting the one that resists his demonic offers does Shepard eventually wake in rubble.

All this shit is coincidence?  No, fuck that, and fuck any idiot who even gives it serious consideration.  Shepard was being indoctrinated.  That's not opinion, that's fact.

Yep. I agree. I'm playing ME3 again for the first time in nearly 2 years, and I cannot. Even for a second, believe that all the stuff, and it's not just the really obvious, but things like weird breathing sounds during missions. For example, I don't know if it's a documented sound glitch, but it's NOT sound effects, it's the dialogue sound (even fucking weirder), anyway's during Cure the Genophage, my sound was being constantly bombarded by what sounded like Shepard breathing very, very heavily, but consistent almost as if, Shep was dreaming very deeply. It was so bizarre. And there's just an overall vibe to Mass Effect 3, that's... Well it's just off, obviously you guys here know what I'm talking about, but it you haven't played the game in awhile, just go back and sit through all the cinematic's and stuff and the game just feels.... Off and just.

Wrong.

Mass Effect 3 is just weird. And not just the gameplay but the overall tonality and characters and things just feel kinda skewed (I don't know if I'm making sense, lol probably not, it's very late here in the States). ME3 feels as if you're being kinda led down a linear path, and it's get more and more linear as you progress in the story. And.... You're always returning to the Citadel, always. It's like the Citadel is the very heart and soul and true HQ of this game. Even more so than the Normandy. Gameplay mechanics seem to just meld together with narrative in ME3.


Take for example the dreams.... The 2nd and third one in particular. Shepard is un-armed in these dreams. In contrast to the first dream in which Shepard is fully armed. And your visits to the Citadel, you're always unarmed.. Totally in direct contrast to ME1 and ME2 in which Shepard is NEVER unarmed when going, really anywhere.

"I never give up my guns"

I mean, this is all core pillars of IT stuff but it's so face slappingly obvious. BioWare basically yelling at the player, "Hey watch this! This is wrong. And Shepard is acting weird. Take note. Cause it matters. And Wake up!"

ME3 thematically and tonality feels as if there is something going on under the surface. As if we really are only getting a face value plotline and narrative-

YOU are Commander Shepard! The unstopable super human space marine. 1 part Master Chief. 1 part Solid Snake. 1 part Super Man. 100 percent Bad Ass. You play as Shepard and you control the fate of the universe! Recruit other bad assess, if not generic, Space Alien races(Like the Space Toads, The Space Lizard/bird/cat things, The blue hot bitches, and many more assorted weird Aliens!) to fight the evil Reaper horde and save the galaxy from totally destruction! During your adventures you can bang an assortment of chicks and dudes. Alien or human, do whomever you want! You are the ultimate nerd power fantasy! Uber BAMF Commander Shepard. Also, there's lots of guns and explosions! BOOM!

Then there's this really intricate and very cunning if not devious narrative. The real narrative I believe-

This is a tragedy. Not a space opera. This is Macbeth not Star Wars. Nothing is what it seems. There is an agenda, and has been from the start. There was always... A plan. Afterall, you are fighting an enemy that is trillions of years old. Hyper intelligent and incredibly deadly. Their physical and mental prowess is only matched by their unyielding commitment and resolve to their objective (Self Preservation, no matter the cost). And they can literally warp and control organics and even advanced synthetics minds and thought processes and world views. A power that you (Commander Shepard) have witnessed first hand with the main villains of the first 2 games of the series(Saren and the Collectors). They call this incredible power, indoctrination and it's the "Reapers" best and most effective weapon. And throughout your entire run as Commander Shepard, you have been exposed to more Reaper tech than any known organic in existent NOT allied with The Reapers (TIM and Cerberus not withstanding). And now... It's taking hold. The final entry in the Mass Effect series is a true BATTLE OF WILLS, the final SEVERE TEST OF BELIEFS(Kinda like a... Crucible). Not only is the fate of the entire universe at stake but the very fight for the soul and mind of our beloved Commander Shepard is on the line. Will you choose the correct, difficult and morally RIGHT path and defeat the menacing reapers and lead the galaxy toward peace and freedom from the Reaper imperative? Or will you fail THE TEST and fall forever to an existence of eternal slavery and suffering.....


The CHOICE is up to you. This is Mass Effect.

But.... That's just me. I'm not Mac Walters and I can't really think like a Mac Walters. So... Yeah. It's probably just a herculean space opera about the unstoppable Juggernaut Commander Shepard. And it just had a very odd, preachy and rushed ending. That's probably it.

Probably

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by dorktainian on Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:30 pm

there are many on BSN that are coming over to the idea Shepard was Indoctrinated (or undergoing indoctrination). 3 years on. About fucking time.

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