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(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Post by TurianRebel212 Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:30 am

Rifneno wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:Pretty much. I mean, Javik basically tells you that The Crucible was sabotaged by indoctrinated agents in his cycle. And yet we find the schematics of the fucking thing on Mars.... Just as the Reapers are invading and it just so happens that someone very closely associated With Commander Shepard found them...... I mean. Come on now, I mean one coincidence or a couple, alright. But this game has so many major things that just seem to somehow find Shepard. Somehow.

You know who told Liara about the Crucible?  Glyph.  That super advanced piece of technology that's designed to be used by anyone that finds it without understanding how it works.  You know, just like the Citadel and the mass relays.  ...  Or the Crucible.  Huh.  Reaper tech always seems to fit that concise little description.

I've never thought about that. Maybe that's how Cerberus really found Liara and the Shadow Broker Base. Glyph was communicating with his fellow Reaper drones, it actually makes sense, lol.
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Post by Rifneno Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:35 am

TurianRebel212 wrote:
Rifneno wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:Pretty much. I mean, Javik basically tells you that The Crucible was sabotaged by indoctrinated agents in his cycle. And yet we find the schematics of the fucking thing on Mars.... Just as the Reapers are invading and it just so happens that someone very closely associated With Commander Shepard found them...... I mean. Come on now, I mean one coincidence or a couple, alright. But this game has so many major things that just seem to somehow find Shepard. Somehow.

You know who told Liara about the Crucible?  Glyph.  That super advanced piece of technology that's designed to be used by anyone that finds it without understanding how it works.  You know, just like the Citadel and the mass relays.  ...  Or the Crucible.  Huh.  Reaper tech always seems to fit that concise little description.

I've never thought about that. Maybe that's how Cerberus really found Liara and the Shadow Broker Base. Glyph was communicating with his fellow Reaper drones, it actually makes sense, lol.

Well there's definitely no question that Cerberus has a yet unexplained but major leak in the SB's organization.
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Post by dorktainian Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:47 am

ViolentSound wrote:Yes, Liara does, I distinctly remember that scene

did Glyph tell her that, and if so how did it know?  

Now I want to go and play LOTSB again  Wat

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Post by WeAreHarbinger Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:27 pm

I would still love a decent explanation on the Crucible's original designers. Not just a "You would not know then, and there is not enough time to explain". I know it's unlikely i'll ever get an explanation on who they were and unless it's going to tie in with getting to Andromeda (i really hope not) i'll just have to try and put it down to "quick plot device".

The only thing we have to go on is clearly the Leviathans know of it's designers, they didn't give that shifty look for nothing.
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Post by dorktainian Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:34 pm

what if the citadel is a ship? Tinfoil Hat
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Post by Eryri Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:10 pm

dorktainian wrote:what if the citadel is a ship?  Tinfoil Hat

Well, assuming that the mindfuck didn't begin at Cronos station, the Citadel must have gotten to Earth somehow. It's too big to fit through a relay and I can't see the Reapers towing it, so it quite possibly has engines of its own. It's partner in Darkspace would probably have to have some too in order to get out so far into intergalactic space.
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Post by ViolentSound Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:12 pm

I'd say the biggest sign that the crucible is a reaper device is the fact that in order to use it you have to talk to starbrat who is also supposedly controlling the reapers..of course I don't believe the scene is real, but at face value , why would an AI just let Shepard  do whatever he wants? AI has some sort of self preservation, just like the Geth did and they weren't even fully evolved AI at that time. I'll never buy into the whole " Shepard is too cool for school and gets to dictate the way the galaxy evolves" sure he accomplished great things, but he's a born leader, a soldier, all he knows is war. But that doesn't mean he should be a space Jesus. And again this is just at face value, I firmly believe IT is the real ending. Even if they just ignore it, for me that's what I'm sticking with.

EDIT: Actually I think that the reapers planted the idea in early cycles and whoever built it first would deemed "worthy" or it'd be sign that they reapers way of harvesting would be obsolete or even more cynically, they all get turned into reaper paste cuase they are "worthy" for ascension. Eh it's still doesn't make a whole lot of sense no matter you dress it up. IT does fill in the blanks there though so thats why I happen to feel it's right.

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Post by ZerebusPrime Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:47 pm

dorktainian wrote:what if the citadel is a ship?  Tinfoil Hat

As I said earlier, that would both make the most sense and be least compatible with what happened in ME3.

The Citadel was jam packed with refugees of all major sentient species.  It had starships.  It had basic water and food resources of which at least the protein pastes are supposed to be renewable.  Transporting the Citadel to Andromeda before the Reapers could get their hands on it, kill everyone inside, and turn it into a Reaper factory would have been a coup.

Of course, then there'd be nothing stopping the Reapers from just tracking it down again...

I'd have trouble with twisting the plot to the point where that actually happened, with Shepard's mind thinking the Citadel was sent to "Earth" (which he is fixated on saving) and that he had to lead an army to recover it.

But at least that way the Citadel Defense Force didn't just lay down and roll over for the Reapers.


Last edited by ZerebusPrime on Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by TurianRebel212 Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:49 pm

Rifneno wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:
Rifneno wrote:
TurianRebel212 wrote:Pretty much. I mean, Javik basically tells you that The Crucible was sabotaged by indoctrinated agents in his cycle. And yet we find the schematics of the fucking thing on Mars.... Just as the Reapers are invading and it just so happens that someone very closely associated With Commander Shepard found them...... I mean. Come on now, I mean one coincidence or a couple, alright. But this game has so many major things that just seem to somehow find Shepard. Somehow.

You know who told Liara about the Crucible?  Glyph.  That super advanced piece of technology that's designed to be used by anyone that finds it withoutunderstanding how it works.  You know, just like the Citadel and the mass relays.  ...  Or the Crucible.  Huh.  Reaper tech always seems to fit that concise little description.

I've never thought about that. Maybe that's how Cerberus really found Liara and the Shadow Broker Base. Glyph was communicating with his fellow Reaper drones, it actually makes sense, lol.

Well there's definitely no question that Cerberus has a yet unexplained but major leak in the SB's organization.

Well then.... That's that. And that is considered Canon. So..... Yeah. And we all know Cerberus and TIM were using reaper tech by then, and probably indoctrinated.
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Post by invetro Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:57 pm

It has just occurred to me (not sure if it's been brought up here yet) that under IT, Shep has never met TIM face to face. This is the apparent first true meeting. If Anderson is Sheps sanity trying to shine through, then it makes so much sense that the already established to be indoctrinated TIM has a face like the inside of an 80s computer.
After hearing the logs on Chronos station that TIM is going to undergo immediate reaper implantation (without surgery, eep) we then see him on the holophone and his face is perfectly normal.
It's only when things are super weird after the beam run that TIM is noticeably altered, because Sheps mind is both expecting him to be that way, and conveying that the indoctrination is creeping in.

If we never actually met TIM, he's still alive and well.
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Post by dorktainian Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:38 am

ZerebusPrime wrote:
dorktainian wrote:what if the citadel is a ship?  Tinfoil Hat

As I said earlier, that would both make the most sense and be least compatible with what happened in ME3.
.

Why?  We just bolted a huge Mass Effect Core to it.  Why would it being a ship be so nonsensical?

Assume for a moment the people on the citadel are not dead.  Then go back to IT and see evrything after shep hits that beam as being almost an illusion in sheps mind.

The Citadel is still intact above earth at that point and is full of people from almost all species.  It has exactly what it needs to preserve the current cultural identity of our galaxy before the reapers wipe it forever.  It then rockets off to another galaxy along with a huge population of sentient creatures that have been saved from obliteration.

It doesn't wipe out IT, because thats shepard specific.
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Post by Eryri Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:24 am

It could work if the illusion proper began at the elevator of light. Bioware did say that the population of the Citadel had retreated to shelters and had survived. They just didn't say where.

This could really be made to work with a bit of thought. Aria and Bailey might show up as NPCs, or even as squad mates of the new protagonist.

And Shepard could still be there as an antagonist, though I don't know where he would get a ship or an indoctrinated crew...
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Post by Jusseb Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:46 am

You know what will happen if something the size of the Citadel will move at the speed of light or more to reach Andromeda?

The thing will just break into pieces, because you know. Physics.
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Post by smash016 Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:44 am

I can't be bothered with all that physics stuff. Let's just pray the narrative will hold together and respect the first three games. Who cares whether it's physically possible.

Neither do I think BW have based their plans for Andromeda on physical calculations.
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Post by dorktainian Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:44 am

Physics?  When has that mattered in Mass Effect?

Wall of text time.  Massive Logic bullshittery.

This might be a little scary door for this forum, but it kinda links in with IT.

Destroy might seem like a victory, but remember not everything is as it seems, since this is a mental battle which may have already been lost as sheps mind now belongs to Harbinger.  Destroy is exactly what Harbinger wanted.  (remember shep is bleeding out still in front of the console.  Also remember the extinction patterns shown by the VI. )It proves Shepard single minded enough for Harbinger.  He can now be 'used' as Harbinger sees fit.  Then he wakes up in the rubble, having survived thanks to Harbinger.  He is no longer Shepard, but is now something moar.

This would confirm IT, but also allow room for using the Citadel as an escape vehicle or Ark (shudder).


If Shepards Indoctrination began when he was hit in London, then EVERYTHING else you are shown (remember this is an RPG and YOU are shepard) is a lie.  

The Citadel is still closed.  The Reapers are still reaping.  Now look at the design of the citadel... Notice the base of the citadel is big enough to fit around the Crucible once attached.. (see picture).

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 7 Crucible-citadel

Hence it being a ship.  It's like an ark, it has a population.  It now has a massive drive core.  The base closes around the Crucible.  The Crucible has Thrusters (they didn't jettison) All systems go for launch....

Massless Corridors.  Thats how you explain the Citadel not breaking up  (look at the size of that core). Physics be damned.
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Post by Eryri Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:12 pm

smash016 wrote:I can't be bothered with all that physics stuff. Let's just pray the narrative will hold together and respect the first three games. Who cares whether it's physically possible.

Neither do I think BW have based their plans for Andromeda on physical calculations.

Agreed. I'd be prepared to overlook quite a bit of dubious physics so long as Shepard's indoctrination is addressed. It's too good a story to leave hanging.

dorktainian wrote:

Hence it being a ship.  It's like an ark, it has a population.  It now has a massive drive core.  The base closes around the Crucible.  The Crucible has Thrusters (they didn't jettison) All systems go for launch....

Massless Corridors.  Thats how you explain the Citadel not breaking up  (look at the size of that core). Physics be damned.

That and the Citadel's quantum shielded hull. That thing is supposedly tough as nails when closed up.
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Post by Guest Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:09 pm

Looks like we're not the only one to notice the similarities between these scenes in ME3 and MEA:

https://twitter.com/GambleMike/status/613568219635433472

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Post by Rifneno Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:25 pm

dorktainian wrote:Physics?  When has that mattered in Mass Effect?

Translation: The science has always been over my head.
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Post by dorktainian Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:48 pm

Rifneno wrote:
dorktainian wrote:Physics?  When has that mattered in Mass Effect?

Translation: The science has always been over my head.

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Post by jojon2se Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:48 pm

invetro wrote:If we never actually met TIM, he's still alive and well.

So... TIM... Rejuvinated (kind of) through Lazarus project research results (that Dr. Jana looks like something of a red thread, here), in turn based on whatever possibly lets the reapers keep living (non cancer-) cells going for millenia, "augmented", and posing under the symbol associated with that mythical: "The Shepard" person...

'That where you are going with this, or should I go easy on the bottle of second guessing? :P

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Post by DoomsdayDevice Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:42 pm

Also, Shepard can be on board the Citadel in IT. Let's say the hallucinations start at Harbinger's beam. Shep goes up to the Citadel, hallucinating heavily. Then finally when Shep passes out in front of the console, the full blown illusion starts. In that case, the explosion we see taking apart the Citadel never happened, and Shepard is still on the citadel.

Shepard doesn't need to be in London for IT.
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Post by Rifneno Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:46 pm

dorktainian wrote:
Rifneno wrote:
dorktainian wrote:Physics?  When has that mattered in Mass Effect?

Translation: The science has always been over my head.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 7 102177-arya-stark-spoon-gif-scanners-U9Xn
(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 7 Rikishi-stinkface-kurt-angle-2-o
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Post by dorktainian Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:18 pm

lol!
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Post by ZerebusPrime Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:01 pm

dorktainian wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:
dorktainian wrote:what if the citadel is a ship?  Tinfoil Hat

As I said earlier, that would both make the most sense and be least compatible with what happened in ME3.
.

Why?  We just bolted a huge Mass Effect Core to it.  Why would it being a ship be so nonsensical?

Assume for a moment the people on the citadel are not dead.  Then go back to IT and see evrything after shep hits that beam as being almost an illusion in sheps mind.

The Citadel is still intact above earth at that point and is full of people from almost all species.  It has exactly what it needs to preserve the current cultural identity of our galaxy before the reapers wipe it forever.  It then rockets off to another galaxy along with a huge population of sentient creatures that have been saved from obliteration.

It doesn't wipe out IT, because thats shepard specific.

I simply cannot rationalize the Reapers moving the station across the galaxy but for some reason not killing everyone inside who isn't a Keeper.
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Post by Eryri Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:15 pm

fshep wrote:Looks like we're not the only one to notice the similarities between these scenes in ME3 and MEA:

https://twitter.com/GambleMike/status/613568219635433472

Hmm... So they're not afraid to draw attention to the similarities. The question is, are Bioware tone deaf enough to introduce some random new N7 and compare him to Shepard when so many of us are desperate for the real McCoy?

Edit - those blue lights on the back of his armour don't seem very practical for a soldier. They're like two targets on his back. Interesting shade of electric blue though. Almost... husk-ish?


ZerebusPrime wrote:
dorktainian wrote:
ZerebusPrime wrote:
dorktainian wrote:what if the citadel is a ship?  Tinfoil Hat

As I said earlier, that would both make the most sense and be least compatible with what happened in ME3.
.

Why?  We just bolted a huge Mass Effect Core to it.  Why would it being a ship be so nonsensical?

Assume for a moment the people on the citadel are not dead.  Then go back to IT and see evrything after shep hits that beam as being almost an illusion in sheps mind.

The Citadel is still intact above earth at that point and is full of people from almost all species.  It has exactly what it needs to preserve the current cultural identity of our galaxy before the reapers wipe it forever.  It then rockets off to another galaxy along with a huge population of sentient creatures that have been saved from obliteration.

It doesn't wipe out IT, because thats shepard specific.

I simply cannot rationalize the Reapers moving the station across the galaxy but for some reason not killing everyone inside who isn't a Keeper.

Well, I suppose you might be able to justify it because the Reapers wouldn't want to cause too much damage to the Citadel that would only have to be repaired before the next cycle. The Citadel population would be no immediate threat to the Reapers so maybe they left them for the husks to ferret out of their shelters later, without damaging the buildings?
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