(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:41 am

Speaking of Final Fantasy, I just noticed how much the "Rinoa is Ultimecia" debates resemble IT.  Right down to unbelievers being lying retards and claiming that the company officially said it's not true when that never happened.  Near as I can tell, it started as a magazine interview or something where one of the writers said that sorceresses don't live longer than normal humans.  And since Ultimecia lived in the far future, she can't be future Rinoa.  Which sounds like a good point.

I mean, Ultimecia is only... hang on, let me get her official description.  "A powerful sorceress possessing a deep-seated rage and the ability to control space and time."  Yeah...  Yeah, I don't see any way someone WHO CONTROLS TIME AND SPACE could survive those centuries.  Surely there's nothing special about Ultemecia's ability to CONTROL TIME that would allow her to... sorry, I'm projecting at IT literalists, aren't I?  I'm not even sure I believe in R=U because I can barely find any info on it.  Most of what I find is "UR A RETARD" "NO U R".  You know, just like most IT debates.  And even the bits of fact you do find are often half truths or whole lies.

It just amazes me how closely that "debate" resembles ours.  Also makes me more sympathetic toward new Mass Effect players, seeing how convoluted and impossible it must be to find solid info from either side of the debate.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Terramine on Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:43 am

Seems this Lightning is a Thief of Light and this Ultimecia is either a Muse of Space or a Muse of Time. That's about all I can contribute to the Final Fantasy convo.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Eryri on Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:11 pm

Yeah I've not thought much of the most recent Final Fantasies. I finished ff13 once and never went back to it, and never bothered with either of the sequels or spin offs. At least FFXV seems to be a fresh start, and I'm encouraged by the way they've incorporated fan feedback into version 2 of the demo. But at the moment I'm more disturbed by that image of Vaan sniffing his own finger. Uncertain
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:49 am

JRPG's in general haven't been sane in over a decade. SquareEnix especially. This is why I switched to Western RPG's and part of why I was so delighted by BioWare's Mass Effect back in 2007.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Guest on Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:19 am


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by TurianRebel212 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:31 am

What I don't get are a few things.

So BioWare said, it's not quite a sequel and it is NOT a prequel.

Dafuq???

What does that even mean? Is it an alternate or redux type of thing???

Then, if N7 is around than that would mean, that this soldier would have knowledge of AT THE VERY LEAST, Anderson. As Anderson was ONE OF THE FIRST graduates of the program.


Meaning.....


That if it's not a prequel. Then we can rule out the years prior to 2186.

If it's not "quite" (I don't like that description at all) a sequel then that would mean that it could be in the future, but....... How and why????

If Mass Effect 3 is legit and the ending choices and "paths" that the player selected are legit.... Then, why in the hell would there even be a conflict at all. And why would there be any imperative or operation to travel to this far off galaxy....


In Destroy. The Reapers are destroyed and the threat has ended, permanently.

In Control. ReaperShepGod protects and watches the galaxy and makes sure people don't go cray cray and everyone is cool with that....


In Synthesis we are all one and whole..... Synthetics and organics share the same DNA and stop the "chaos". Everyone lives happily ever after. True "ascension" is achieved. A sort of perfect union between man and machine... (You know, sounds legit).


In refuse, you lose. The Cycle is lost. And thus, there can't be an "N7" program or mako, or omni tool or anything. Cause.... It's been merk'd by Harby and pals.


See, if the Mass Effect 3 ending paths are legit then the series has literally Deus Ex'd itself into oblivion and stagnation. Because the endings are so polarizing and encompassing that it leaves the series ZERO room for forward progress and ideas.

And.... the new game is not a prequel and not quite a sequel.

So.... It's either a Redux of Mass Effect 3 (What I think it is) or a complete reboot of the series, (I don't think that is financially sound for EAWare, I believe they alienate many fans if they did a total reboot)

Again.... I'm very worried about this game narratively. I don't like what I'm hearing from BioWare, because to me it sounds like they have no idea what they're doing.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by clennon8 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:42 am

Eh. Don't overthink it. It's a sequel, in the sense that it comes after the events of ME3. It's "not quite" a sequel in the sense that it isn't really a continuation of the events of ME3, and they're moving to a new setting. They'll circumvent the endings by having the ark ship leave the Milky Way before the Crucible is activated.

As for Anderson and Shepard, I'd wager one or both of them will be acknowledged/referenced once or twice in the new game, and that's about it.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:09 am

TurianRebel212 wrote:If Mass Effect 3 is legit and the ending choices and "paths" that the player selected are legit....

I'm still not willing to even entertain this notion.  They told us for the first time in Arrival that fucked up dreams are a symptom of indoctrination while a Reaper screamed "Your mind will be mine!" at Shepard, then ME3 starts with Shepard seeing some douche kid die and even though all we had was a demo with no ending and no context, BSN was alit with "That kid's not real, it's classic Sixth Sense stuff here", then we spend the whole game having fucked up dreams of the not-real kid with increasingly intense indoctrination symptoms like oily shadows while Reapers tell us things like "You resist, but you will fall", only for the whole thing to end in a scene that's been described by professionals in the field as "too surreal not to be on purpose" where the ghost of douche kid offers us the paths of known indoctrinated agents' fall and only by selecting the one that resists his demonic offers does Shepard eventually wake in rubble.

All this shit is coincidence?  No, fuck that, and fuck any idiot who even gives it serious consideration.  Shepard was being indoctrinated.  That's not opinion, that's fact.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:36 am

I totally agree with that Rif.

As far as the "not a prequel and not quite a sequel" thing goes, it's simple. Apparently they're actually going the garbage route of making a story that's chronologically much later than but also entirely disconnected from the story we know. (Edit: Er, I just noticed what clennon8 said)

The funny thing is, by going to an entirely new galaxy, they're throwing out the window everything that makes the Mass Effect universe. Unless, you know, there's mass relays and Reapers in Andromeda too (probably not), but even then we'll have totally different races, etc.

I just don't see how people can get into the whole thing.

It's a monumental cop-out of unholy proportions.


Last edited by DoomsdayDevice on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by clennon8 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:40 am

Absolutely Shepard was being indoctrinated, and they put all that stuff in there as clues.  But somewhere near the end, they lost their clarity, or their resolve, or something, and they didn't follow through.  Because they couldn't figure out the "mechanism" for having a player controlling an indoctrinated Shepard, and they failed to realize they didn't need a fucking mechanism. Because the real trick was indoctrinating the player, not Shepard.  Or maybe they did realize all that, and they did follow through, and now they intend to go to their graves with the knowledge that they pulled off the greatest trick ending in the history of video games.  Seems unlikely they wouldn't want to take credit for that, but I suppose it's possible.  

I basically spent a year being angry and depressed over this shit, which is ridiculous, but sadly true.  Now I just say "it's indoctrination" and I don't worry about whether they "meant it" or not.  Nobody can take that away from me.


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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by clennon8 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:54 am

I don't think Reapers are needed for it to be Mass Effect.  Or even the relay system, though I wouldn't be terribly surprised if one of the tasks in the new game is to establish a new relay system.  Certainly, adding new aliens to the mix doesn't make it "not Mass Effect."

I dunno.  I mean, if there's eezo, biotics, krogan, asari, salarians, space travel, mako exploration, omni-tools, medi-gel, familiar guns and armor, it's probably going to feel pretty Mass-Effecty to me.  Again, though, I hope it doesn't take too many cues from Inquisition.  I don't want a giant MMO-lite where we spend dozens of hours doing the equivalent of picking flowers and scraping rocks. Fuck that boring, brainless shit.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ElSuperGecko on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:13 pm

Oh, for one last ME3 DLC.

You know, like Pinnacle Station was released prior to the ME2 hype-train starting.  Or Arrival prior to ME3.

One last ME3 DLC, just to get people to pick up their controllers and get intrigued by the franchise again.  To get invested again.

One, last ME3 DLC.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Jusseb on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:15 pm

I don't understand one thing. If we are to take the endings literally then why did we have to leave the milky way with an ark ship?

If you consider all endings then in neither one of them we would need to leave the milky way, except refuse.

So even if they launched that ark ship and we rule out refuse, they could easily come back and everything is just fine? Because you know, taking the endings literally, we either destroyed, controlled or merged with the reapers.

I don't really get that "we needed to go to another galaxy' theme.

They just launched that ark ship as a precaution in case everything failed. But ruling out refuse, we didn't fail did we?
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:24 pm

Jusseb wrote:I don't understand one thing. If we are to take the endings literally then why did we have to leave the milky way with an ark ship?

If you consider all endings then in neither one of them we would need to leave the milky way, except refuse.

So even if they launched that ark ship and we rule out refuse, they could easily come back and everything is just fine? Because you know, taking the endings literally, we either destroyed, controlled or merged with the reapers.

I don't really get that "we needed to go to another galaxy' theme.

They just launched that ark ship as a precaution in case everything failed. But ruling out refuse, we didn't fail did we?

The problem is that you're trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by smash016 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:28 pm

None of this makes any sense unless you interpret the whole Andromeda concept as an implicit admission from BW that they fucked up ME3 beyond recognition.

I mean, they must've been incredibly stupid to write an ending to a very successful franchise, critically and commercially, that prohibits any kind of decent protraction of the ongoing story. I really can't wrap my head around that idea.

And if they intented to provide full closure with ME3, then why isn't there any? And even post-release, BW have done everything to keep things open. Not clearing up any ambiguity whatsoever regarding the story.

(edit) Exactly Rif.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by clennon8 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:58 pm

Jusseb wrote:I don't understand one thing. If we are to take the endings literally then why did we have to leave the milky way with an ark ship?

If you consider all endings then in neither one of them we would need to leave the milky way, except refuse.

So even if they launched that ark ship and we rule out refuse, they could easily come back and everything is just fine? Because you know, taking the endings literally, we either destroyed, controlled or merged with the reapers.

I don't really get that "we needed to go to another galaxy' theme.

They just launched that ark ship as a precaution in case everything failed. But ruling out refuse, we didn't fail did we?

The ark ship will almost certainly have left before the outcome of the Reaper War was decided.  Probably when things look really bad, i.e. after Thessia falls.  And once they're off, I imagine there's no turning that bus around.

In a more meta sense, moving the setting to Andromeda allows Bioware to do a "sequel" without having to account for multiple galaxy settings right off the bat.  Just the potential of having to deal with a Synthesis galaxy is a layer of complication they don't need.  Never mind the Refuse ending, where the galaxy will have been reaped. This way, they get to start with a single baseline and build from it.

Really, it's probably better this way.  At least this way we (probably) get to hold onto IT.  If they stuck around the Milky Way, they would almost certainly shoot it down once and for all.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:21 pm

clennon8 wrote:The ark ship will almost certainly have left before the outcome of the Reaper War was decided.  Probably when things look really bad, i.e. after Thessia falls.  And once they're off, I imagine there's no turning that bus around.

Nope. That makes even less sense. Do you know the kind of resources it would take to build a ship capable of transporting enough people from various races to Andromeda? Even if we just pretend the static problem never existed, there's still a LOT to deal with. Is everyone in cryostasis? If so, you're going to need AI's. You can't trust a VI with that kind of task. Creating an AI that you can trust for a millennium long trip isn't a simple task. Or is everyone awake for the journey? In which case... have you seen the Migrant Fleet?

Point is, the ark would require mindblowing amounts of resources of all kinds, from eezo to programmers. And here's the million dollar question: you think the galaxy can manage to pull that off while at the same time making the Crucible (which we're told already pushed us to our limits) all while under attack from a galactic invasion fleet of mecha-Cthulhus?

No. The answer is "no."

There is no possible way to make sense of this scenario. It contradicts both basic lore and common sense. ME:A will built upon Shitadel level storytelling.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by clennon8 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:26 pm

Where there's writer fiat, there's a way.
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:31 pm

If saying things could make them true, I could turn back the decision to foolishly not listen to my ignore list. Sadly, saying things does not make them true.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by WeAreHarbinger on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:51 pm

Mass Effect 1 - nobody believes the reapers exist (it's all the geth)
Mass Effect 2 - Collectors aren't affiliated with the reapers until the very end (council still plays stupid)
Mass Effect 3 - Reapers are here, no time for a bathroom break...everybody preoccupied with Banshee hugs.

The only people i ever saw admit the reapers existed were Bryson and the Arrival crew, the latter were indoctrinated eventually and wanted the reapers here. I just never understood how anyone in the galaxy had time to plan, get everything they need together and set off for an entirely new galaxy. The first two games people are denying the existence anyway, so why the jump to another galaxy? Yes there was the fall of Thessia and stuff but i imagine by then people are just getting more pissed and ready to fight.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:02 pm

WeAreHarbinger wrote:Mass Effect 1 - nobody believes the reapers exist (it's all the geth)
Mass Effect 2 - Collectors aren't affiliated with the reapers until the very end (council still plays stupid)
Mass Effect 3 - Reapers are here, no time for a bathroom break...everybody preoccupied with Banshee hugs.

The only people i ever saw admit the reapers existed were Bryson and the Arrival crew, the latter were indoctrinated eventually and wanted the reapers here. I just never understood how anyone in the galaxy had time to plan, get everything they need together and set off for an entirely new galaxy. The first two games people are denying the existence anyway, so why the jump to another galaxy? Yes there was the fall of Thessia and stuff but i imagine by then people are just getting more pissed and ready to fight.

There were a few others, even some in high positions of power.  Like Admiral Hackett and Councilor Anderson.  But as high as they were in their positions, they didn't have the power to order something like an ark made.  Not without convincing the rest of the brass or politicians or whatever.  Especially since any ship to even begin to be able to work as an ark to another galaxy would have to be of Dreadnought size, and that means the Treaty of Farixen is involved.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Guest on Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:02 pm

It was probably inperfectly done, but I think the gist (eventually we get slapped in the face with it) is that Shepard has a 'Reaper cult', even if its a cult oriented around destroying the Reapers, not worshiping them. That he actually sounds kinda crazy... to almost everyone else in the galaxy. That some others scattered around may believe him, but in the way that conspiracy theories get a minority of followers. That his crews get sucked up into a cult of personality instead of just being people who are directly experiencing and learning the threat of the Reapers. Shepard never seems to get undeniable proof of the Reapers, so ME1 is spent with almost no one being aware of them, ME2 is spent with various peoples either awake to the threat or in denial mode (which they can be blamed for at this point), and ME3 is spent with various peoples either geared up for the battle they've been trying to be ready for, or still in a shocked denial of their circumstances, or took Shepard seriously enough that while they didn't do as much as they could pre-invasion, they still understood what was happening once the invasion started and tried to move forward with that awareness.

The trickiest part was the ME2 era.
-Council seemed to pretty seriously take the Reaper threat at the end of ME1. Was this just retconned? Is this part of a grander theory we could think up? Or most likely, is this just the writers deciding they didn't like this scene so they wrote the Council to be doofuses?
-Lots of truth is emerging. Collector news is spreading and you'd have thought that it would spread more Reaper rumors. Sectors of the Alliance, including a fraction of its top leadership, DO take the Reapers seriously and they try to do/allow things that might formulate a response against them. Cerberus more clearly breaks off from the Alliance and seems to dedicate itself to (its version of) a response to the Reapers. The aliens are more in denial, but the more aware and (in a way) paranoid of their organizations/people at least whisper about the Reapers.
-James Vega's Collector trip. Nothing of the data he acquired meant anything? Really?
-Shepard doesn't exactly sound insane, just very dedicated to a single view of things. Like many have noted, Shepard's a very accomplished person who you might want to take seriously when he makes even one single radical claim. Why such a level of denial about this from people like the Council, but even seemingly all other galactic leadership?
-WTF happened with Sovereign? The stuff about him seemed almost literally sweeped under the rug. Anime showing his body toed instead of scattered? Explosions scattering his parts everywhere and no one talks about that maybe indoctrinating people or sending Reaper tech onto a black market? No one of authority notes that this isn't exactly much like Geth technology, but a whole other class? ME2 basically ignores this, ME3 mostly ignores this, and then Leviathan DLC finally notes it by just acknowledging parts of the Reaper were recovered and there's one ('shielded') in Bryson's lab. I'd LOVE to know how such a thing never woke millions of people up to the idea of godlike starships that are literally capable of entering the sacred citadel and killing galactic leadership and organization. Even if 'geth', it should have mobilized nearly everyone to some degree regardless, but we don't see that, and it doesn't really feel like it makes sense.


I think the gist of Shepard's reputation about the Reapers is actually fine. Cool, make me have a crazy cult that thinks the Reapers are coming but only a minority of the galaxy thinks I'm correct. But ME2 was especially terrible in going about this. Almost no one did anything in 2 years? Almost no one is doing anything about the Collectors even though they're taking 100,000s of people?
Everything seems to ruled by 'rule of cool' for ME2 (as fun of a game as it can be) that its like the game never stops, pauses, and goes "Well, shouldn't people be getting prepared for another invasion regardless of various personal denials of the threat? Not of the Reapers, but at least the geth? Where's the dreadnaught building, the push for science advancement, the start of conspiracy cults, the economy being shaken up, the emergence of people who may just run up to Shepard and tell him that they believe him and they're trying to do something specifically about the Reapers?" Its just mostly brushed aside. 
Only ME3 then brings any of this, but then it kinda feels like its too late. I get the 'galaxy/council in denial' concept, but damn it was pushed too far in ME2, if only to make Shepard seem like more of a singular badass that knows the 'real truth', and only Shepard and Cerberus are trying to do anything about the Reapers (I admit this expands a bit in content like Arrival). Cool, okay Bioware, that's nice, but it doesn't seem to fit the lore and larger narrative.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Guest on Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:25 pm

Rifneno wrote:
WeAreHarbinger wrote:Mass Effect 1 - nobody believes the reapers exist (it's all the geth)
Mass Effect 2 - Collectors aren't affiliated with the reapers until the very end (council still plays stupid)
Mass Effect 3 - Reapers are here, no time for a bathroom break...everybody preoccupied with Banshee hugs.

The only people i ever saw admit the reapers existed were Bryson and the Arrival crew, the latter were indoctrinated eventually and wanted the reapers here. I just never understood how anyone in the galaxy had time to plan, get everything they need together and set off for an entirely new galaxy. The first two games people are denying the existence anyway, so why the jump to another galaxy? Yes there was the fall of Thessia and stuff but i imagine by then people are just getting more pissed and ready to fight.

There were a few others, even some in high positions of power.  Like Admiral Hackett and Councilor Anderson.  But as high as they were in their positions, they didn't have the power to order something like an ark made.  Not without convincing the rest of the brass or politicians or whatever.  Especially since any ship to even begin to be able to work as an ark to another galaxy would have to be of Dreadnought size, and that means the Treaty of Farixen is involved.

^^ Swob's post reminds me that TIM and Cerberus can probably also be filed in the category of admitting the Reapers existed, and they seem to have enough resources to build a dreadnought in secret, right?

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by Rifneno on Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:43 pm

fshep wrote:
^^ Swob's post reminds me that TIM and Cerberus can probably also be filed in the category of admitting the Reapers existed, and they seem to have enough resources to build a dreadnought in secret, right?
People that know they're real because they're indoctrinated don't count.

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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

Post by ZerebusPrime on Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:55 pm

The only way I can see an ark being built pre-Reaper invasion is if the Asari government was playing stupid while knowing full well of what could await them thanks to their own personal prothean archive.  Then they built an Ark filled to the brim with multiple sentient species and DNA samples to make sure their own people had sufficiently diverse breeding stock.

It would, however, amuse me if someone discovered that the Crucible was a Reaper trap early into its construction and so the Alliance used the Crucible project as cover for the construction of an ark.  And then when the Reapers went to turn on the Crucible that they'd just captured and docked with the Citadel, they found out that almost all of the eezo was missing (rendering the device useless), having instead been used to create the most powerful FTL drive known to anyone in the last epoch.  Cue the ark ship zooming out into dark space. Cue the Reapers rebuilding Shepard as an agent to go after them.

Fanciful thinking keeps me sane.
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ZerebusPrime
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Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

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