Re: (XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV!

by **DoomsdayDevice** Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:31 pm

vlad78 wrote:Furthermore, the religious symbolism in ME being everywhere, naming those vessels arks is quite meaningful imho.

Nah, ark is just the typical word associated with vessels that save species from certain doom.

If you're familiar with old school 60s sci-fi, there's a classic comic called Dan Dare, which at some point features a ship that is used to save a generation of a certain species from periodical extermination. This vessel is called the Kra. Which, of course, is ark spelled backwards.

by vlad78 Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:08 pm

Sure. It's always a possible explanation.

However Bioware most writers have various degrees in litterature and very few references put in the former trilogy were there randomly.

The religious theme is the most obvious one.

That's why there's a hidden ark of covenance in the citadel archive.
That's also why Leviathan can be suspected to be at the source of many organic civilization oldest religions.
That's why the Geth are divided between heretics and what I call 'orthodox' in their beliefs.
That's why the word Geth seems to come directly from Gethsemane, the place where Jesus was betrayed.
That's why there's a plesiosaure in Bryson's lab, the beast which remains were once thought to be the bones of the leviathan from the bible.
That's why the quarians are directly taken from the hebrew.
That's also why quite a lot of systems in ME2 and ME3 are direct references to the bible. (especially places where the flotilla is sailing)
That's also why Shepard is a kind of space Jesus.
That's also why he died on Alchera, a word which means the dream which shaped the world for the indigenous australians.

I've done my homework. There's a high probability the word Ark is not used by bioware just because it's cool imho. The symbolism is just too great.
AND in the trailer, they said it all, humanity needs to expand to protect itself.

by Terramine Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:30 pm

vlad78 wrote:Sorry to answer a bit late but you surely noticed the 3 dots on the chest of the female instructor in the introduction video.

I'll tell you what I definitely DID notice. I noticed your avatar and that you clearly think there is a connection between Egypt and the Asari all because they both have honeycomb patterns or whatever retarded bullshit like that. So it doesn't surprise me that you connect 3 arbitrary dots to TIM. Cause you know, you're just that stupid.

vlad78 wrote:
The 3 dots is also the logo used by Cerberus Skunkworks compagny which produced all Cerberus high tech hardware back in ME1.

*retarded bullshit*

Tim's eyes in ME2 and ME3.

*more retarded bullshit*

Symbol on instructor's space suit:
*even more retarded bullshit*

You know what else has 3 spots? Your girlfriend's vagina. 3 Gspots, I found em last night. Damn, she must be A CERBERUS AGENT LE GASP.

vlad78 wrote:
Arkcon symbol
*oh here we go with the retarded bullshit again*

Cerberus symbol
*god fucking damn it not MORE retarded bullshit*

Once again see the honeycomb pattern I've explain in the scary door part of this forum.

Yah, the honeycomb pattern that means NOTHING at all.

vlad78 wrote:I may over extend myself a bit but I find that the femal instructor's space suit has strange likeness with the Cerberus Banshee armor.

Nah don't worry. You got plenty of leg room there. You might as well add in the theories that 9/11 involved Bombs, that the Earth is flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, and that there are Grey Aliens disguised among politicians. You haven't even come close to pushing the limits of credulity at all.

Oh wait no... I'm sorry... I'm too busy exercising the MAGICAL bullshit called SARCASM

vlad78 wrote:
Andromeda initiative is a front for Cerberus, once more. 2176 is roughly the period when Cerberus became more active on the political front and had started to see things BIG and Cerberus isn't outlawed in 2185.
Furthermore, we've seen Cerberus is perfectly capable to collaborate or deal with alien species.

In-universe people were shocked when Shepard did anything that involved dealing with other species because he/she was working with cerberus. That was the only time I know of when any Cerberus affiliation involved directly working with alien species and even then you as the player have to make certain choices to really FORCE Cerberus to allow a single alien civilian to go back to their homeworld instead of being held hostage. Yet you think they are socially sensitive enough to pull off leading such a huge multi-species project?

Not to mention that we know ARKCON was found by the government. I don't remember if it was specified if it was the human alliance that found it or what. But why would Cerberus have any power here when it isn't their Ark to begin with? It was made by someone else, and is in someone else's hands. Not Cerberus'.

This is aside from the fact that as I pointed out. Cerberus is already using up most of their resources on their many projects, meanwhile the rest of the Human resources end up being all put into the Crucible. Everybody already bitched about the logistics of the collective resources of the entire galaxy. But what you're saying makes things even worse because humanity wouldn't have had resources for the Crucible if they had lead the Arkcon Initiative.

The one that gets to lead is the one that contributes the most. Yet Cerberus would've contributed barely anything. Meaning the only possible involvement Cerberus could have, is merely being passengers of someone else's project. Not their own.

Which fits more closer to the idea that they might have a few moles onboard ARKCON. But responsible for the initiative? You're stupid.

vlad78 wrote:The so called humanity first is just a cover to upgrade humanity and make of it a major contributor in the council.

LMAO WHAT? I'm pretty sure you mean the other way around. The claim that Cerberus just wants to upgrade humanity and make them "contribute" and "play a part" in the galaxy is the cover. TIM's real intention is obviously to make humanity dominate over all other life in the universe period. He's like Hitler except he's not just for a single subtype of humanity against the rest of humanity. But rather humanity itself against all intelligent non-human species.

vlad78 wrote:
Then, the Andromeda initiative isn't about space magic. As you all found out, it isn't possible to reach Andromeda within 600 years without technological capabilities far beyond everything council species have.
Only 2 candidates can fill the bill by providing the technology, the reapers, and leviathan.

Why would the reapers even contemplate to do that? on the other hand, leviathan would have all the reasons in the galaxy to try to expand its influence.

You're also presenting a false dichotomy. Yes the council species themselves do not have the technology as-is. Yes the Reapers and the Leviathans DO have that level of advancement. But the point is that the council species FOUND the technology, made by someone else. Just because Reaps and Levis have the capability DOES NOT mean it was them that made it, in fact it's full well possible they still don't have such technology themselves because it would depend on what BRANCHES and DIRECTIONS they focus on in terms of technological advancement. They have the capability, but considering both focus on dominating the Milky Way aka the galaxy in front of them. It's full well possible that they never unlocked that kind of technology themselves.

All them HAVING that level of technology means it's POSSIBLE. But it's not JUST possible for THEM. Anything that is technologically possible for 1 person, is technologically possible for anyone else.

To me this fits exactly what would be a weakness to the cycle itself. If the Reapers haven't thought about technology to travel to other galaxies yet, and neither has Leviathan. Then it wouldn't surprise me if something like this ARKCON technology was designed by a past species the Reapers wiped out, but the Reapers never learned that they built such a thing.

vlad78 wrote:(btw for those who forgot, I believe Cerberus doesn't obey to the reapers but to leviathan)

Which I think is bullshit. If it was Leviathan influence TIM would be immune to Reaper Indoctrination. Instead to me it just seems like he's putting up a good fight against Indoctrination and is able to actually REBEL more than Saren ever did. Of course Saren was more of a soldier, and TIM is more strategic, smart, etc. So Saren had more reason to be a complete mindless puppet for the Reapers.

Which is also why it's thematically shown to us through the trilogy how Synthesis is merely full on embracing Indoctrination and Control is turning it around on them saying "I'm not going to submit, I will win by dominating over you". But that narrative is still too weak to beat Indoctrination willwise.

Even Destruction is a bit questionable because we know we can't destroy them conventionally/head on. The reason Control loses to the Reapers will-wise is because we are NOT on equal footing with them to begin with. TIM thinking he can become higher than the Reapers, himself single-handedly. Is so fucking stupid of him.

But it also seems stupid to me that people here actually think there is any other option besides to ESCAPE the Reapers. The idea that we can destroy them is yet another mis-direction. Because all the facts say we can't. If you can't join em, and you can't control em, and you can't destroy em. The only possible thing left is to AVOID them altogether.

Point being though that it's obvious to me that TIM is Reaper-Allied but resistant cause his goal is Control.

by Eryri Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:31 pm

I notice that the name of the Ark is Hyperion, probably after Dan Simmons' novels. I remember Bioware referencing them as inspiration during their making-of videos for ME3. The conflict between organic life and AI was a major theme of those books... I'm not sure if it's a good idea if they're planning to draw from that well yet again.

by Rifneno Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:19 pm

Eryri wrote:I notice that the name of the Ark is Hyperion, probably after Dan Simmons' novels. I remember Bioware referencing them as inspiration during their making-of videos for ME3. The conflict between organic life and AI was a major theme of those books... I'm not sure if it's a good idea if they're planning to draw from that well yet again.

Hyperion was also a first generation titan in Greek mythology. We all know how much they love to name shit after Greek mythology.

by Eryri Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:50 pm

I didn't know it was from Greek myth. I've just been looking up the subject on Wikipedia- fathers eating their children, sons castrating fathers, goddesses spontaneously generated from the resulting bits... man that stuff is trippy.

by Rifneno Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:12 pm

Eryri wrote:I didn't know it was from Greek myth. I've just been looking up the subject on Wikipedia- fathers eating their children, sons castrating fathers, goddesses spontaneously generated from the resulting bits... man that stuff is trippy.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 Large

by Eryri Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:55 am

^Lol!
From what little I know of Greek Mythology, that does seem spot on.

Also, Smudboy is having a field day with this

While lying awake thinking about the apparent lore-raping monstrosity that is ME Andromeda, I did come up with a particularly unlikely and Scary Door theory. It is, no doubt, wrong, but if I was a Bioware employee tasked by my overlords to try to fix this mess under pain of losing my job, it's probably what I would come up with. I'll put it in spoilers so as not to clutter the thread.

Spoiler:

Edit: just now re-reading the nonsense I wrote above at about 5am. Insomnia is a terrible thing...

by **DoomsdayDevice** Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:19 pm

vlad78 wrote:There's a high probability the word Ark is not used by bioware just because it's cool imho.

Not "just because it's cool". It's simply the most logical word to use. Because of it being a mythical word, it has a much better ring to it than "lifeboat", don't you think? Ark is a word that speaks to the imagination. Everyone knows it's a vessel that was used to save species from extinction. There is no other word that means the same thing. It's the only word they could use.

by ElSuperGecko Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:53 pm

Hey y'all. Why is Terramine trying to become a really low budget version of Rifneno?

by vlad78 Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:36 pm

Spoiler:

Terramine, before using the word Bullshit, use the grey matter which is hidden in your skull. It will open quite a lot of new perspectives to you. Please.

Moreover this is an indoctrination theory forum, you may disagree but if you don't like other contributions, go stick to the face value ending. Please.

Indeed Asari are connected to ancient egyptian gods and not because of the honeycomb pattern.

1 - Asari is an ancient world which means Osiris the egyptian god which became amongst the first pharaohs and came back from the dead.
Osiris became green just like Shiala, the Asari cloned by the thorian in ME1.

2 - Asari go through several stages in their lifes, when they are young, they are dancers and adventurers, then they enter the matrimonial stage and then they become leader of their species, they become matriarchs.
Surprisingly, bees have a similar life. Thoughout their life, they accomplish different tasks for the hives.
And guess what Osiris gave to the egyptian people? He taught them to raise bees.
You can also find out Benezia in ME1 has strange antennas looking just like insect antennas.

3 - Bees have also several special meaning in ancient Egypt. They carry the messages of the gods and the souls of the deceased. And as a matter of fact, Osiris is also judging the fate of the souls of the deads.
As you can see, both bees and Osiris have intertwined symbolism.

4 – Osiris has been tricked and murdered by his jealous brother Seth. His body has been cut to pieces hidden througout the realm. Symbolically this is reminiscent both of the genocide of all organic civilizations strating with the leviathans themselves by reapers . In a sense, all are children of leviathan and therefore brothers.

But Seth is not inherently evil he also protects Maat by guarding the course of the solar barge from Apophis, the snake who wants to eat the sun sent by isfet = chaos. (dark energy plot?)

5 - Now comes the interesting part.
Osiris is judging the deads according to how respectful they were of maat's code. Maat is the godess of order and the code represents harmony or the way things should be under the guidance of the gods and pharaoh. Does it remind you of Asari justicar who try to upheld the ancien Asari code?

Maat is not only the godess of order, it's how thing should be to stay in harmony under the lead of the proper ruler.

If there isn't a proper ruler, isfet, chaos begins. Didn't you hear the reapers and levi talking about organic civilizations creating chaos ?

6 - Bees were thought to have naturally a perfect society, harmonious under the rule of the queen which was a reflection of the harmonious ancient egyptian civilization under the guidance of Pharaoh and the gods.

The symbol of such perfection and harmony was the honeycomb which you can find on many pictures of Maat. (hence my avatar)

In Mass Effect, Maat is achieved when leviathans control the galaxy or synthesis is achieved. But Maat is probably not something desirable for lesser organic civilizations.

Here's the picture of leviathan's system, Sigurd's cradle, notice the huge honeycomb in the nebula. Notice how this honeycomb has a dot in the middle which is exatly how some honeycombs where sometimes drawn on Maat's cloth.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 Latest?cb=20100220102939

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 Latest?cb=20100220102939

Almost every honeycombs in the trilogy are related in some ways (sometimes really twisted) to leviathan. Whether you agree or not, if you dismiss this theory on the spot, you are the retarded person here.

SYMBOLISM

Be aware BW loves to use logos to add depth to their universes. In mass effect it goes beyond that, it tells what the face value narrative keeps hidden.

Do you know Binary Helix, the company who found the last rachni queen egg in the galaxy? Rachni can be found in Bryson't lab and were likely to have been manipulated by leviathan. (see Leviathan DLC)

What were the odds to find the last egg in the galaxy?
Did you know binary helix collaborated with Cerberus and shared its same ruthless methods almost to the point of allowing me to suspect them from being a front of Cerberus?

Watch this.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 Binary10

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 Binary10

How could they find the last rachni egg without some unnatural help? Right at the very moment the council needed the location of the relay leading to Ilos?

TIM's indoctrination.

Stating Tim resisted indoctrination before falling to it is total bullshit. Its a weak attempt to reconcile what appears to be a plothole. Nobody can resist indoctrination unless being a biotic emitter of psychic waves like the rachni queen.

Saren never did anything which could hamper Soreveign 's plans. He became indoctrinated right from the beginning but only realized this in the end. Saren's indoctrination was the most subtle use of indoctrination reapers were capable of in order to keep his intellectual abilities intact.

TIM on the other hand achieved quite a lot of things totally opposite to reapers interests.
First he managed to prepare humanity to become one of the top powers of the galactic council increasing the council strength. He managed to make humans and aliens collaborate on several projects like the normandy. He managed to create human biotics. He had a hand in the study of several protheans relics. He saved Shepard and sent him against the collector base.

And above all he made control possible.
Control is not indoctrination.
It's not a red herring designed by the reapers. Otherwise the reapers would never have contemplated raiding sanctuary. They would have let him play with his toys and would have ordered him not to use it.

You cannot answer properly the biggest question concerning Cerberus real allegience, why would the reapers fear an indoctrinated TIM having the control option? If TIM is controlled by the reapers, he can't control them. Period. The starchild said it and it makes sense. It's perhaps the only thing he said which made sense.

And please don't serve again the retarded bullshit BW has been feeding you about TIM being indoctrinated only in the end. TIM was indoctrinated day ONE.

But if TIM is not controlled by the reapers but by leviathan , it starts suddenly to make sense. Leviathan wants to take back the control of the galaxy. They want the control option.

And this is why reapers keep shooting at the crucible even if only the control option is available to shepard.

And this is why BW made fools out of all of us. The ultimate twist, Cerberus never obeyed to the reapers but to Levi. Reapers are a levi tool which went out of control but is still fulfilling its mission. And the mission is to end chaos, to reach a solution.
Levi and reapers don't have necessarily antagonist goals.
Yet Leviathans need to play it smart if they don't want to end harvested. And Harbinger has probably a part to play there as a possible double agent which both agendas in mind.

And ME3 ending is not about beating the reapers, it's about agreeing or not with leviathan, control gives the galaxy back to leviathan. Synthesis creates a situation where leviathan and reapers domination will never be disrupted again. It's the end of evolution and of life as we know it. Refusal only delays the inevitable until the next cycle because the Shepard mutation has been found. Only destroy gives a chance to lesser organic civilizations.

by **DoomsdayDevice** Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:09 pm

vlad78 wrote:You cannot answer properly the biggest question concerning Cerberus real allegience, why would the reapers fear an indoctrinated TIM having the control option? If TIM is controlled by the reapers, he can't control them. Period. The starchild said it and it makes sense. It's perhaps the only thing he said which made sense.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you're saying TIM wasn't controlled by the Reapers but by Leviathan. And somehow you seem to think the Reaper AI made perfect sense when he talked about TIM, even though he actually said TIM couldn't control the Reapers, because they already controlled him. Which is the opposite of what you're claiming.

I don't follow.

by Jusseb Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:08 am

Who else thinks the 'Kett' are a mix between Collectors and Protheans? Bit 'meh'...

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 82lb5s39vvdetyatxm9wfn

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 82lb5s39vvdetyatxm9wfn

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 Mass-effect-kett-5-640x287

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 Mass-effect-kett-4

by WeAreHarbinger Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:45 am

Jusseb wrote:Who else thinks the 'Kett' are a mix between Collectors and Protheans? Bit 'meh'...

*snip*

*snip*

*snip*

WeAreHarbinger wrote:Those new dudes look like a Turian and a Prothean had at it...and that happened. So much for innovation..

My thoughts on the matter.

by Jusseb Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:56 pm

Sorry, probably missed your post.

But yeah, that could also be a possibility. Lame nonetheless.

by Eryri Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:56 pm

The thought process behind their design that the guy in the video describes is what I find disappointing. Apparently we can't be interested in anything that doesn't have 2 eyes, a nose and a mouth and wears clothes.

Some of my most abiding memories of ME2 were the conversations with Legion where he talked about their philosophy of forging their own unique future as a collective mind, and how they didn't envy other individualist species at all. He had a very 'alien' mindset and had a flashlight for a face, but I found him one of the most interesting characters in the game because he was so well written. The fact that they need to make the Kett so humanoid to make them relatable doesn't say much for their confidence in their own writing these days.

by ZerebusPrime Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:08 pm

I *know* I've seen that design before. I'm also unenthusiastic about the Kett. We need stranger aliens that follow the rules of evolution as they exist on their own world, not aliens that match our culture and customs.

Anthropocentric bag of...

by Raistlin Majere Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:18 pm

Eryri wrote:The thought process behind their design that the guy in the video describes is what I find disappointing. Apparently we can't be interested in anything that doesn't have 2 eyes, a nose and a mouth and wears clothes.

Some of my most abiding memories of ME2 were the conversations with Legion where he talked about their philosophy of forging their own unique future as a collective mind, and how they didn't envy other individualist species at all. He had a very 'alien' mindset and had a flashlight for a face, but I found him one of the most interesting characters in the game because he was so well written. The fact that they need to make the Kett so humanoid to make them relatable doesn't say much for their confidence in their own writing these days.

For me one of the most interesting moments was talking to the Rachni Queen. One thing was to hear and read how the galaxy had been at war with the Rachni in the past and through that know they were intelligent, it was quite another thing to stand face to face with a ressurected specimen of that species, a species so alien in appereance and converse with it.

The Rachni were completely alien in just about every way, down to the very way they percieved the world around them compared to us and it was just an amazing experience to interact with such a very different mind, which is part of the reason I wish I had more chances to interact with them.

I would have loved to see the architecture of their cities or ships.

by CSSteele Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:09 am

DoomsdayDevice wrote:
vlad78 wrote:You cannot answer properly the biggest question concerning Cerberus real allegience, why would the reapers fear an indoctrinated TIM having the control option? If TIM is controlled by the reapers, he can't control them. Period. The starchild said it and it makes sense. It's perhaps the only thing he said which made sense.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you're saying TIM wasn't controlled by the Reapers but by Leviathan. And somehow you seem to think the Reaper AI made perfect sense when he talked about TIM, even though he actually said TIM couldn't control the Reapers, because they already controlled him. Which is the opposite of what you're claiming.

I don't follow.

I think what he's trying to say is that Starbrat was correct that IF the Reapers were Controlling TIM, then of course he couldn't control them, however, they attacked Sanctuary and were 'afraid' of TIM because he was being controlled by Leviathan and he could, in fact, control them if he had made it to the chamber. Vlad can correct me if I misunderstood of course.

by dorktainian Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:16 am

CSSteele wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
vlad78 wrote:You cannot answer properly the biggest question concerning Cerberus real allegience, why would the reapers fear an indoctrinated TIM having the control option? If TIM is controlled by the reapers, he can't control them. Period. The starchild said it and it makes sense. It's perhaps the only thing he said which made sense.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you're saying TIM wasn't controlled by the Reapers but by Leviathan. And somehow you seem to think the Reaper AI made perfect sense when he talked about TIM, even though he actually said TIM couldn't control the Reapers, because they already controlled him. Which is the opposite of what you're claiming.

I don't follow.

I think what he's trying to say is that Starbrat was correct that IF the Reapers were Controlling TIM, then of course he couldn't control them, however, they attacked Sanctuary and were 'afraid' of TIM because he was being controlled by Leviathan and he could, in fact, control them if he had made it to the chamber. Vlad can correct me if I misunderstood of course.

In IT we've all assumed shepard was the only one undergoing mindfuckery. What if Anderson and TIM were going through the same process at the same time? That might explain why they all ended up in the same place for a battle of wits as it were. They (the reapers) were deffo afraid of TIM though. Who would stand to gain from TIM getting to the decision chamber? Who would benefit from Anderson reaching the decision chamber? More the question who would stand to benefit from Shep reaching the chamber?

by CSSteele Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:14 am

dorktainian wrote:*SNIP* Who would stand to gain from TIM getting to the decision chamber? Who would benefit from Anderson reaching the decision chamber? More the question who would stand to benefit from Shep reaching the chamber?

If'we we're going with these questions and a quasi-IT quasi-Literal, or .. a Vlad line of thinking? I dunno, answering these questions though points to Synthesis being .. yeah, look.

1.) TIM? TIM benefits, or Leviathan if we're in that mode of thinking.

2.) Anderson? I'd say if Anderson made it there's no way he'd pick anything but Destroy.

3.) Shepard? Well, he's got that hybrid machine-organic thing going, so The Reapers? I mean, that is the point of IT anyway, right? Reapers are trying to indoc Shepard and that's the whole point there, but it messes with IT as most of us see it because it means it isn't a dream/indoc attempt completely with Shepard fighting a full-on mental battle against Indoc where the outcomes are all symbolic. Destroy is no more Reaper influence, Control is where you end up like TIM, Synthesis is making the Reaper baby-thingy-jigger and being totally given over to them.

And again, this is the very reason we need SOMETHING to clarify the endings, because there are so many different ways to interpret what it all means, what is real, what isn't ect. I'm only 'harping' on this because of the latest Game Informer and the 'oral history of Bioware' interview segment where they go over ME3 and briefly touch on the controversy. Supposedly the EC was supposed to provide clarification. Preston Watamanuik, Senior Creative Director said "We had like 42 million permutations of CONSEQUENTIAL things.... But people boiled that down to the last 30 seconds."

That quote tells me they have no idea, and most specifically of course Preston there, has no idea at all what people were upset with over how the trilogy ended. Boggles my mind how badly they missed the point of the outcry.

by vlad78 Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:56 pm

CSSteele wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
vlad78 wrote:You cannot answer properly the biggest question concerning Cerberus real allegience, why would the reapers fear an indoctrinated TIM having the control option? If TIM is controlled by the reapers, he can't control them. Period. The starchild said it and it makes sense. It's perhaps the only thing he said which made sense.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you're saying TIM wasn't controlled by the Reapers but by Leviathan. And somehow you seem to think the Reaper AI made perfect sense when he talked about TIM, even though he actually said TIM couldn't control the Reapers, because they already controlled him. Which is the opposite of what you're claiming.

I don't follow.

I think what he's trying to say is that Starbrat was correct that IF the Reapers were Controlling TIM, then of course he couldn't control them, however, they attacked Sanctuary and were 'afraid' of TIM because he was being controlled by Leviathan and he could, in fact, control them if he had made it to the chamber. Vlad can correct me if I misunderstood of course.

Indeed, sorry for not being clear enough.

by vlad78 Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:03 pm

Here's a picture taken from the gallery 'Asari part 4' in 'something a bit new' in the Scary door part of the forum.

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 Asarimindcontrol16_zps6e978316

(XL) Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark IV! - Page 30 Asarimindcontrol16_zps6e978316

Keep in mind when ME3 was released, watching TIM suddenly being able to directly control other people by using a biotic power was considered as another element upholding the indoctrination theory because no reaper had ever been seen doing it.

But Morinth and Leviathan have an identical power, it's called dominate.

by vlad78 Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:34 pm

dorktainian wrote:
CSSteele wrote:
DoomsdayDevice wrote:
vlad78 wrote:You cannot answer properly the biggest question concerning Cerberus real allegience, why would the reapers fear an indoctrinated TIM having the control option? If TIM is controlled by the reapers, he can't control them. Period. The starchild said it and it makes sense. It's perhaps the only thing he said which made sense.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you're saying TIM wasn't controlled by the Reapers but by Leviathan. And somehow you seem to think the Reaper AI made perfect sense when he talked about TIM, even though he actually said TIM couldn't control the Reapers, because they already controlled him. Which is the opposite of what you're claiming.

I don't follow.

I think what he's trying to say is that Starbrat was correct that IF the Reapers were Controlling TIM, then of course he couldn't control them, however, they attacked Sanctuary and were 'afraid' of TIM because he was being controlled by Leviathan and he could, in fact, control them if he had made it to the chamber. Vlad can correct me if I misunderstood of course.

In IT we've all assumed shepard was the only one undergoing mindfuckery. What if Anderson and TIM were going through the same process at the same time? That might explain why they all ended up in the same place for a battle of wits as it were. They (the reapers) were deffo afraid of TIM though. Who would stand to gain from TIM getting to the decision chamber? Who would benefit from Anderson reaching the decision chamber? More the question who would stand to benefit from Shep reaching the chamber?

But only Shep went through the process of dying and being resurrected. We now know the universe has totally changed between ME1 and ME2-3, places and sizes of colonies are totally inconsistant which opens the possibility of ME1 being real and ME2 and ME3 being a massive mind fuck, not only the end of ME3.

Furthermore only shep is said to be special both by the reapers and leviathan (and almost everyone he crossed in the 3 games). Nobody has an interest in letting TIM or Anderson reach the decision chamber, they don't have what it takes to make a real choice.
As you said Anderson can only choose destroy, TIM can only choose control, and none of them could have the slightest opportunity to choose synthesis because it requires Shep and his potential special ability (if it exists).

BTW by watching all ending, it seems the AI shows quite a lot of contempt toward shepard if he couldn't manage to reach the highest level of military assets opening the synthesis option.
He says something like "You have choices, more than you deserve' which means the starbrat had an interest in having Shepard reaching the highest military assets level possible meaning the crucible is perfected and totally achieved.

Now comes the other question, how could the AI be on the citadel given that Sovereign had to connect directly to reestablish control during the battle of the citadel because we were told the protheans had stopped the citadel from obeying to remote reaper commands in order to give some time to the next cycle. How could they possibly remove reaper control if the reaper AI was there?

And what if the child is NOT the AI but in fact leviathan in disguise who could have sneaked his way to the citadel thanks to the prothean actions at the end of the former cycle and remotly control the citadel from his hideout? Mindfuck Mindfuck Mindfuck Mindfuck Mindfuck Mindfuck Mindfuck Mindfuck Mindfuck Mindfuck

That would explained why the citadel stopped from responding in ME1. That would also explain why TIM is here (if TIM is controlled by leviathan) AND that would fit within the dream theory stating ME3 is not real, especially the battle of earth which breaks almost every knowledge of the codex.

That also explains why Harbinger which is made of all leviathans harvested did let Shepard access the citadel once everybody else was dead whereas other reapers were busy shooting at the crucible and any allied forces. Harbinger could have betrayed them. Only this machine is aware of leviathan's true plans.

Imho what is certain, if the Ai was on the citadel, it would not have offered the destroy and control option, whereas leviathan would have. Control is his primary goal, synthesis is a solution to everything in his eyes and even destroy could be contemplated even if he doesn't want that. (during the dialog, the child shows anger when his image becomes blurred which happens when destroyed is chosen. (if I remember well) And the reaper voice if refusal is chosen could certainly also be leviathan's voice.

Of course I could be entirely wrong and all of these could just be a miserable attempt to understand what is only a story riddled of plotholes.

by vlad78 Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:26 pm

Jusseb wrote:Who else thinks the 'Kett' are a mix between Collectors and Protheans? Bit 'meh'...

Yeah, bit meh.

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